Plane on a treadmill poll...

[BABY J]

Of course in that scenario the plane will take off, and the ugly black square van will pull you.

But the original question does NOT have the conveyor match the speed of the wheels, but the speed of the plane/ mass, which could be interpreted that it is able to counteract any thrust/ forward motion of the plane itself by adjusting its speed accordingly.

I will play your game. How can the conveyor match/halt ANY forward motion that the plane has (as long as it has a jet engine and is not wheel-driven). You're ALMOST there... I have faith in you. LOL

[PRiMAdonna]

wow.....this is a close one...

[BABY J]

Of course in that scenario the plane will take off, and the ugly black square van will pull you.

But the original question does NOT have the conveyor match the speed of the wheels, but the speed of the plane/ mass, which could be interpreted that it is able to counteract any thrust/ forward motion of the plane itself by adjusting its speed accordingly.

So - give the ugly stick man wings and he will lift off.

[speedminded]

You will be spinning the front wheels and sitting on your ass. .

Why would you be sitting on your ass? Can you not stand motionless with the front of the skateboard up in the air? If you did that up against the treadmill with two wheels on the ground and two on the treadmill whats going to happen? It's just going to spin the front wheels backwards the same speed at the treadmill right but you're not going to go anywhere right?

But what does this have to do with anything?? Your weight is still shifted to solid, non-moving ground. Sit your entire fat ass on all four wheels on a moving treadmill and you WILL fly backwards with skateboard and all.

It has EVERYTHING to do with it. You are right, if you sit your ass on the skateboard you will go backwards if the treadmill is on, BUT what happens if you hold on to the bar or someone behind you places their hand on your back...you don't go anywhere right? You holding or their hand is no differant than the thrust of a plane engine. You can speed the treadmill up all the way and it will won't take any more effort to hold you in the exact same spot, why? Because the wheels are free spinning.

[speedminded]

in the problem, it states that the plane is moving one way while the belt is moving the opposite way at the same exact speed. Think about it. (-)10 + (+)10 = ZERO. the two speeds cancel each other out and the plane goes nowhere.

You think about it. What propels it forward? The thrust from the engines. How is the motion of a conveyor belt going to affect the thrust of an airplane engine. It won't, it can't. The conveyor will only make the wheels of the plane spin backwards faster...has no effect on the forward movement of the plane.

[BABY J]

http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/...&postcount=678

[ISAtlanta300]

What you just admitted to is that the wheels spinning means nothing - which is what we want you to see. So, you got your -10 and you +10 - PERFECT!! Plane is going nowhere fast. Now fire up the JET engines to 100% - the plane moves forward yes? And if not - what is stopping it from moving forward.

Yes, but you are not applying 100% of anything to the treadmill. The treadmill in the original question, is asked to match the speed / force / thrust of the plane.


It's simple.. if you can accept that -10 and + 10 = Zero than you'd have to accept that the thusters were set so that the plane is at +10 (10MPH forward) and the threadmill is moving at -10 (10 MPH Backwards), so the plane is stationary, (AT ZERO), wheels spinning and all, UNTIL you fire the engine at 100%. This is logical. Cause if the treadmill is at -10 and the plane's engines are off, then the plane will move backwards on the treadmill at -10 (10mph backwards), just like if you were to just stand still on a moving treadmill. Even with rollerblades. Correct so far?

If you accept the principle that this magical threadmill is able to keep the plane stationary at -10/+10 then you'd have to accept the principle, that if all the stars align, and the treadmill is magical enough to instantaneously match ANY motion, thrust / speed of this plane, that it theoretically be possible to hold the plane stationary AT ANY SPEED, UNTIL the thursters are able to overcome this opposite force/resistance/etc. to start moving forward and lift off (eventually)

[Kyle]

in the problem, it states that the plane is moving one way while the belt is moving the opposite way at the same exact speed. Think about it. (-)10 + (+)10 = ZERO. the two speeds cancel each other out and the plane goes nowhere.

I would agree with that if we were talking about something propelled by the wheels, like a bicycle on a treadmill. Then yeah (-)10 + (+)10 = ZERO. But the thrust in this scenario is different.

I think the plane would take off. Even though the wheels are going backwards the plane is moving forward, so I doubt the wheel movement matters. Just a thought.

[Echonova]

Let "assume" the plane can take off, but the plane and conveyor belt are at Hartsfield Jackson airport. Will the plane take off?

No one has yet to answer my question......

[ISAtlanta300]

Let "assume" the plane can take off, but the plane and conveyor belt are at Hartsfield Jackson airport. Will the plane take off?

No, it will just be delayed for 2 hours while the passengers sweat it on board with no A/C or toilets.

[BABY J]

Yes, but you are not applying 100% of anything to the treadmill. The treadmill in the original question, is asked to match the speed / force / thrust of the plane.


It's simple.. if you can accept that -10 and + 10 = Zero than you'd have to accept that the thusters were set so that the plane is at +10 910MPH forward) and the threadmill is moving at -10 (10 MPH Backwards), so the plane is stationary, (AT ZERO), wheels spinning and all, UNTIL you fire the engine at 100%. This is logical. Cause if the treadmill is at -10 and the plane's engines are off, then the plane will move backwards on the treadmill at -10 (10mph backwards), just like if you were to just stand still on a moving treadmill. Even with rollerblades. Correct so far?)

No - u are missing the fact that the wheels are "free-rolling". In this example, there would be no "backwards" motion at all. But even if there was, this would be a negligent amount.

[ISAtlanta300]

I will play your game. How can the conveyor match/halt ANY forward motion that the plane has (as long as it has a jet engine and is not wheel-driven). You're ALMOST there... I have faith in you. LOL

By spinning faster.

[BABY J]

By spinning faster.

I asked about the PLANE - u are talking about the WHEELS.

[BABY J]

By spinning faster.

In the pic below. I want you to get the 2nd plate (from the top). You can NOT lift the top plate, but you may touch it. How do you do it. Please answer... this is important.

[ISAtlanta300]

I asked about the PLANE - u are talking about the WHEELS.

no, I am talking about the THREADMILL spinning faster.... fuck da wheels... lol

[speedminded]

Yes, but you are not applying 100% of anything to the treadmill. The treadmill in the original question, is asked to match the speed / force / thrust of the plane.

It's simple.. if you can accept that -10 and + 10 = Zero than you'd have to accept that the thusters were set so that the plane is at +10 910MPH forward) and the threadmill is moving at -10 (10 MPH Backwards), so the plane is stationary, (AT ZERO), wheels spinning and all, UNTIL you fire the engine at 100%. This is logical. Cause if the treadmill is at -10 and the plane's engines are off, then the plane will move backwards on the treadmill at -10 (10mph backwards), just like if you were to just stand still on a moving treadmill. Even with rollerblades. Correct so far?

If you accept the principle that this magical threadmill is able to keep the plane stationary at -10/+10 then you'd have to accept the principle, that if all the stars align, and the treadmill is magical enough to instantaneously match ANY motion, thrust / speed of this plane, that it theoretically be possible to hold the plane stationary AT ANY SPEED, UNTIL the thursters are able to overcome this opposite force/resistance/etc. to start moving forward and lift off (eventually)

This is where you mess up, +10 on the plane but -10 on the planes free spinning wheels, not the plane itself. Just because you spin the wheels backwards doesn't mean the plane which is powered by it's engines can't go forward. The plane will continue going forward at 10mph and the wheels will go backwards at the speed of the plane plus the speed of the treadmill.

[BABY J]

no, I am talking about the THREADMILL spinning faster.... fuck da wheels... lol

The only effect of a faster treadmill is the WHEELS spinning faster... which you ALREADY admitted doesn't matter.

[Echonova]

THE PLANE WILL TAKE OFF!!!!!!!

[BABY J]

IS3...

Plane on a treadmill poll...

[©hris]

im gonna say no....

The traveling air moves passed the the flaps on the wing to create lift... if the plane is not moving there is no air passing under the wing..... therefore its not going to take off unless it was a Harrier Jet.

Turn the jet around and face it the other way so its going with the belt driven runway and you are gonna have a scud missle.

[©hris]

im gonna say no....

The traveling air moves passed the the flaps on the wing to create lift... if the plane is not moving there is no air passing under the wing..... therefore its not going to take off unless it was a Harrier Jet.

Turn the jet around and face it the other way so its going with the belt driven runway and you are gonna have a scud missle.

dude your an idiot... the plane will take off.

[ISAtlanta300]

In the pic below. I want you to get the 2nd plate (from the top). You can NOT lift the top plate, but you may touch it. How do you do it. Please answer... this is important.

That's different, because now you are dealing with inertia.

Let me play your game. What happens if you were to SLOWLY pull a table cloth from a set table with glass and plates... will the plates not SLOWLY move back at you? How do you prevent that? By having someone hold the glass and plates no doubt? That holding is the opposite force or trust applied to keep the plates and glasses set.

[speedminded]

That's different, because now you are dealing with inertia.

Let me play your game. What happens if you were to SLOWLY pull a table cloth from a set table with glass and plates... will the plates not SLOWLY move back at you? How do you prevent that? By having someone hold the glass and plates no doubt? That holding is the opposite force or trust applied to keep the plates and glasses set.

And what if those plates had free spinning wheels? Just like a hotwheels car

[BABY J]

That's different, because now you are dealing with inertia.

Let me play your game. What happens if you were to SLOWLY pull a table cloth from a set table with glass and plates... will the plates not SLOWLY move back at you? How do you prevent that? By having someone hold the glass and plates no doubt? That holding is the opposite force or trust applied to keep the plates and glasses set.

SO - in your example, plates are coming at you slowly... if you push them the other way (faster than they are coming to you) then they move AWAY from you correct?

[BABY J]

That's different, because now you are dealing with inertia.

Let me play your game. What happens if you were to SLOWLY pull a table cloth from a set table with glass and plates... will the plates not SLOWLY move back at you? How do you prevent that? By having someone hold the glass and plates no doubt? That holding is the opposite force or trust applied to keep the plates and glasses set.

No - put free spinning wheels on those plates. You pull the cloth, plates stay still right? Right.

Now - pull the cloth towards you while pushing the plates AWAY from you - plates move away from you yes? Now push the FUCK out of the plates and give them wings - yay!!!! They fly!!!! Chicken or beef??

[ISAtlanta300]

No - u are missing the fact that the wheels are "free-rolling". In this example, there would be no "backwards" motion at all. But even if there was, this would be a negligent amount.

A roller blade's wheels are free rolling.. does that mean that you can stand on a moving treadmill and not fall on your ass??

remember, you are NOT HOLDING ON TO ANYTHING and NO ONE IS GRABBING YOUR ASS to keep you in place. You are in the OFF position, just like the plane. Just a big blob on wheels, on a treadmill... LOL

[speedminded]

A roller blade's wheels are free rolling.. does that mean that you can stand on a moving treadmill and not fall on your ass??

remember, you are NOT HOLDING ON TO ANYTHING and NO ONE IS GRABBING YOUR ASS to keep you in place. You are in the OFF position, just like the plane. Just a big blob on wheels, on a treadmill... LOL

Read the original post, the treadmill is going the same speed as the plane. IF you aren't going anywhere then the treadmill isn't going anywhere either. Now If someone were to push you at say 1 foot per minute on the treadmill and the treadmill was rotating towards you at 1 foot per minute would you still not go forward until falling off the front of the treadmill? (if the front bar wasn't there)

[Echonova]

Quote:
Suppose a plane is on a runway that acts as a conveyer belt. The conveyor belt is as long as a typical runway. The plane moves in one direction, while the conveyer moves in the opposite direction at the same speed as the plane. The wheels of the plane are free-rolling. Will the plane be able to take off?

The question states that the treadmill runs the same as the PLANES speed, not the wheel speed. They are two different things. The statement that the wheels were free-wheeling was not an accident.

Troof!!!

[BABY J]

A roller blade's wheels are free rolling.. does that mean that you can stand on a moving treadmill and not fall on your ass??

remember, you are NOT HOLDING ON TO ANYTHING and NO ONE IS GRABBING YOUR ASS to keep you in place. You are in the OFF position, just like the plane. Just a big blob on wheels, on a treadmill... LOL

I will play your game.

---A ---

1) turn on treadmill on 10mph <---
2) guys starts rolling backwards
3) before he falls off the end, he hits his jet pack full boost... what happens?

--- B ---

1) turn on treadmill on 100mph <---
2) guys starts rolling backwards
3) before he falls off the end, he hits his jet pack full boost... what happens?

--- C ---

1) turn on treadmill on 100000mph <---
2) guys starts rolling backwards
3) before he falls off the end, he hits his jet pack full boost... what happens?

[BABY J]

Now - add that the wheels are free-spinning. Lift-off.

/thread

[BKgen®]

*sigh*

Forget about the damn wheels.
If the conveyer belt offsets the plane's speed, then the plane is
stationary to the ground and will achieve no more lift than if it was
just sitting still on the ground without a conveyor belt.

So unless there is a very strong headwind, it will not be able to
generate the lift necessary to take off.

Read the question again. The treadmill plays a crucial roll in the
plane's acquistion of speed as long as the plane is not airborne. If
it is still on the ground and the wheels are rolling forward at a rate
to move the plane at, say 150 mph, the conveyor belt is pulling it
backwards at the same 150 mph. So relative to the stationary earth,
the plane is going exactly nowhere. This is like going up the steps
of the down escalator at the same rate of speed the steps are going
down - you get nowhere. And if you are going nowhere and the wind is
not blowing, you will not generate any lift at all and therefore will
not be able to take off.

[speedminded]

Quote:
Suppose a plane is on a runway that acts as a conveyer belt. The conveyor belt is as long as a typical runway. The plane moves in one direction, while the conveyer moves in the opposite direction at the same speed as the plane. The wheels of the plane are free-rolling. Will the plane be able to take off?


Troof!!!

It's makes my day to see someone that understands this simple logic, would be even better if we could explain it to everyone that doesn't get it.

[ISAtlanta300]

This is where you mess up, +10 on the plane but -10 on the planes free spinning wheels, not the plane itself. Just because you spin the wheels backwards doesn't mean the plane which is powered by it's engines can't go forward. The plane will continue going forward at 10mph and the wheels will go backwards at the speed of the plane plus the speed of the treadmill.

THE TREADMILL IN QUESTION DOES NOT CARE ABOUT THE WHEELS, BUT ABOUT THE SPEED OF THE PLANE !!

You forget the notion that the airplane still needs it's wheels for MOTION, then LIFT, then TAKE OFF.

The plane is NOT suspended by wires. The plane is NOT weighless. The plane is NOT floating on wheels. It is not a rocket.

I see your point though. You assume that the thurst will always overcome any opposite resistance put on the wheels by the treadmill SPINNING the wheels, but denying ANY forward motion (why? Because even though the wheels are FREE SPINNING, it still has to account for the MASS of the plane. the wheels HAVE to spin so fast as to overcome the WEIGHT put on by the moving MASS of the THRUSTERS+PLANE. Remember, even though the plane is stationary, it is still IN MOTION), and thusly on the motion, and thusly on the speed of the plane.

Yes, in that scenario OF COURSE it will take off.

[BABY J]

You are doing your escalator walk and going nowhere. I run up behind you on the escalator and give you a push - what happens?

[BKgen®]

Let's look at it this way - if you are running on a treadmill, do you
feel any wind? If you wouldn't then the aircraft's wings wouldn't
either.

[ISAtlanta300]

SO - in your example, plates are coming at you slowly... if you push them the other way (faster than they are coming to you) then they move AWAY from you correct?

Correct.


UNLESS you also pull the cloth a bit faster to match my push.

Push = pull

[speedminded]

*sigh*

Forget about the damn wheels.
If the conveyer belt offsets the plane's speed, then the plane is
stationary to the ground and will achieve no more lift than if it was
just sitting still on the ground without a conveyor belt.

So unless there is a very strong headwind, it will not be able to
generate the lift necessary to take off.

Read the question again. The treadmill plays a crucial roll in the
plane's acquistion of speed as long as the plane is not airborne. If
it is still on the ground and the wheels are rolling forward at a rate
to move the plane at, say 150 mph, the conveyor belt is pulling it
backwards at the same 150 mph. So relative to the stationary earth,
the plane is going exactly nowhere. This is like going up the steps
of the down escalator at the same rate of speed the steps are going
down - you get nowhere. And if you are going nowhere and the wind is
not blowing, you will not generate any lift at all and therefore will
not be able to take off.

It DOES NOT offset the speed, it has NO effect on the speed of the plane, if the planes isn't going anywhere then the conveyor isn't either. If the planes engines are propelling it 50mph and the treadmill is spinning towards it 50mph then the plane is still going forward at 50mph....still going forward at 50mph...still going forward at 50mph...still going forward at 50mph...do you get it? The conveyor has no effect on the planes engines and it's ability to propel it forward, it can only make the wheels spin faster. If the plane is going forward at 50 mph and the treadmills is going backwards at 50 mph then the wheels are spinning at 100mph but the plane is still going forward at 50 mph.

[speedminded]

Let's look at it this way - if you are running on a treadmill, do you
feel any wind? If you wouldn't then the aircraft's wings wouldn't
either.

Do planes have feet? No. Are they powered by legs? No. Do they have wheels? Yes. Are they powered by those wheels? No.

[BABY J]

Correct.


UNLESS you also pull the cloth a bit faster to match my push.

Push = pull

HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now - you have seen people pull the cloth on NORMAL plates and they don't move right? So what will happen if you put wheels on said plates - then they DEF would not move... correct??

Take those non-moving plates, push them the opposite way that the cloth is being pulled and they WILL accelerate - yes?

[speedminded]

Correct.


UNLESS you also pull the cloth a bit faster to match my push.

Push = pull

You can pull the cloth 5 times the speed you push the plate, the plate will still move the exact same speed as it was before.