Plane on a treadmill poll...

[Xan]

And if we are using a progressive conveyor belt that will ALWAYS match the amount of thrust put out, then a jet aircraft will never take off because it couldn't build any windspeed.

[speedminded]

What I was getting at with the progressive conveyor was that the plane wouldn't take off because it was "moving" forward on the conveyor like you guys are saying. The way I've always heard this question stated is that there is NO movement in relation to the plane. It NEVER builds any speed other than windspeed.

Ok, what do you suppose is keeping the airplane stationary on the conveyor?

And if we are using a progressive conveyor belt that will ALWAYS match the amount of thrust put out, then a jet aircraft will never take off because it couldn't build any windspeed.

nm, you answered it here. You do understand that the conveyor has no effect on how much air the plane can pull and or push right?

[BABY J]

And if we are using a progressive conveyor belt that will ALWAYS match the amount of thrust put out, then a jet aircraft will never take off because it couldn't build any windspeed.

PLEASE tell me how a (the) conveyor can match anything other than WHEELSPIN/WHEELSPEED in this example. Please?

[JennB]

Yeah, negative repo me becuase I understand something you don't.

I really wish anyone who voted no would just read all of the links I posted. It clearly explains why it will take off. The Straight Dope is a very reputable website and book series, I assure you they are right. One of the others was an aviation website, I believe them as well. It's really not that hard to figure out.

Use the analogies and use your brain. The skateboard, the model plane, go grab either and test them yourself.

[speedminded]

Echo's back, answer my two questions...

[BABY J]

...Think of it with respect to the wheelchair on the treadmill. You're sitting in a wheelchair on a treadmill. The wheelchair wheels turn w/o friction. I stand behind you and hold you in place. The treadmill starts to move. I just hold you there, and the wheels spin. The treadmill moves faster. I don't have to hold you with any more force, the wheels just spin faster. Work is done by the treadmill on the wheels, but there is no force whatsoever on the wheelchair from the treadmill. Its only function is to spin the wheels faster. Now say I walk alongside the treadmill and push you along. The speed you move forward is completely independent of the speed with which the treadmill turns.

This is basically the same thing that's happening to the plane, because the engines are pushing you relative to the air, not the ground!

PLEASE tell me all of the "no it will not fly" people get this.

[BABY J]

ECHO. All I need is a DIRECT yes or no answer on if the plane will stand still or move forward on the treadmill once the engines are fired. I'm begging you to answer this.

[{X}Echo419]

But there will be once the plane starts moving forward! The plane will move forward JUST like on a NORMAL runway and take off. That is what you need to conceptualize! As soon as you can picture that in your head, you have the answer.

you need to tell that to everyone in any form of avation that so they can stop building big ass runways and (military) aricraft carriers that 1. there could be 1 runway @every airport for landing and then some(however many nessary) 20+ft (depending on the plane size) convayer belts and launch jet off of there. BRILLIANT! you should be out selling this right now!

[{X}Echo419]

ECHO. All I need is a DIRECT yes or no answer on if the plane will stand still or move forward on the treadmill once the engines are fired. I'm begging you to answer this.

is this clear enough for you fly boy? or should I write it on a stick and beat you with it?

And if we are using a progressive conveyor belt that will ALWAYS match the amount of thrust put out, then a jet aircraft will never take off because it couldn't build any windspeed.

Ok, what do you suppose is keeping the airplane stationary on the conveyor?

nm, you answered it here. You do understand that the conveyor has no effect on how much air the plane can pull and or push right?

the conveyor dumb ass.
do you even know what a conveyor is?

[man]

you need to tell that to everyone in any form of avation that so they can stop building big ass runways and (military) aricraft carriers that 1. there could be 1 runway @every airport for landing and then some(however many nessary) 20+ft (depending on the plane size) convayer belts and launch jet off of there. BRILLIANT! you should be out selling this right now!

almost buddy

[BABY J]

ECHO:

ECHO if you are done answering my questions then I will go ahead and unsubscribe. All I want is answers... I answered all of your questions. And as far as dumbasses go... well...

FURTHERMORE, there are mulitple runways due to

1) traffic
2) direction of the wind (to provide take-off and landings in headwinds when possible)
3) 1 crash does not incapacitate a major hub for days while they clean up

** So in my wheelchair example. I will not be able to push you forward on the treadmill correct?

[speedminded]

Echo logic...

[BABY J]

THAT WAS FUCKIN HILARIOUS!!!! LOL. I am not laughing at the "it will not fly people." I'm trying to help them understand.

You have to approach it sytematically --> before we even worry about it FLYING we have to determine if the JET powered aircraft on a treadmill is rendered accelerationless due to the fact that it is indeed on a treadmill. The answer is NO. Therefore, it will accellerate. Therefore it will ALSO generate airflow over the wing and achieve flight. The people that say NO are hung up on how it will MOVE on the treadmill, not the fact that if it DOES move that it will achieve flight. I will assume that they are smart enuff to know that it will achieve flight if it can move forward... WHICH IT WILL DO!

I think my wheelchair example pretty much makes it dummy-proof. NE1 who does not get it after that, I dunno what to tell you. Unless ECHO stops attacking people personally and puts some real food on my plate to eat, I am gonna unsubscribe. I'll give him time though...

[speedminded]

is this clear enough for you fly boy? or should I write it on a stick and beat you with it?

the conveyor dumb ass.
do you even know what a conveyor is?

Not being bright enough for the air force is no reason to act like that towards baby j....and if you wanna argue with that, i was ONE answer from getting a perfect score on the ASVAB. What was yours?

Of course I know what a conveyor is and i am willing to bet i've spent more time around and working on them than you have. 15 years on a farm teach you a few things

[BABY J]

PS:

Maybe the Mustang is driving backwards and hates oversteer when going downhill.

[man]

** So in my wheelchair example. I will not be able to push you forward on the treadmill correct?

Psh... dumbass you think wheelchairs can fly? I'm switching over to echo's side.

/sarcasm

[speedminded]

Psh... dumbass you think wheelchairs can fly? I'm switching over to echo's side.

/sarcasm

lolol.

[BABY J]

Psh... dumbass you think wheelchairs can fly? I'm switching over to echo's side.

/sarcasm

Fuck it, I am switching over too!!! LOL

[RandomGuy]

i think the plane WILL lift off... but i think someone mentioned it being stationary and still lifting off... i dont think thats the case... i think it'd travel opposite the direction that the conveyor is going at the same speed it would if it were lifting off on asphalt.

[Ruiner]

if it's going faster than the treadmill yes. if it is not going FASTER than the treadmill, no.

now, lets see if you can understand that.

If WHAT is going faster than the treadmill? It would STILL push forward.

[Ruiner]

What I was getting at with the progressive conveyor was that the plane wouldn't take off because it was "moving" forward on the conveyor like you guys are saying. The way I've always heard this question stated is that there is NO movement in relation to the plane. It NEVER builds any speed other than windspeed.

Read the original question that I put in the first thread. It MATCHES the speed of the plane...

[Ruiner]

And if we are using a progressive conveyor belt that will ALWAYS match the amount of thrust put out, then a jet aircraft will never take off because it couldn't build any windspeed.

It doesn't match thrust...It matches the SPEED of the plane. Read the problem again! First page, first post by me...

[speedminded]

you need to tell that to everyone in any form of avation that so they can stop building big ass runways and (military) aricraft carriers that 1. there could be 1 runway @every airport for landing and then some(however many nessary) 20+ft (depending on the plane size) convayer belts and launch jet off of there. BRILLIANT! you should be out selling this right now!

What are you talking about? Just consider the conveyor belt the size of an average runway. We already know what kind of distance is required for a plane to take off...the point you still can not grasp is why a plane will not remain stationary on a conveyor belt.

[Ruiner]

you need to tell that to everyone in any form of avation that so they can stop building big ass runways and (military) aricraft carriers that 1. there could be 1 runway @every airport for landing and then some(however many nessary) 20+ft (depending on the plane size) convayer belts and launch jet off of there. BRILLIANT! you should be out selling this right now!

What? No. I said that it will need the length of a normal runway to take off! Where did I say that it could do it on a shorter runway? The plane would pick up speed just like any other plane...

[Ruiner]

i think the plane WILL lift off... but i think someone mentioned it being stationary and still lifting off... i dont think thats the case... i think it'd travel opposite the direction that the conveyor is going at the same speed it would if it were lifting off on asphalt.

NOBODY said that...unless you were talking about a Harrier jump jet which can do that, but it's a special type of jet.

We ALL know that the airplane would have to MOVE down a LONG conveyor belt and would eventually pick up enough speed to take off.

[JennB]

i think the plane WILL lift off... but i think someone mentioned it being stationary and still lifting off... i dont think thats the case... i think it'd travel opposite the direction that the conveyor is going at the same speed it would if it were lifting off on asphalt.

Exactly. The plane goes 100 MPH forward, the conveyor goes 100 MPH backwards and the wheels spin at 200 MPH in between. It takes the same length of runway to take off, just like normal.

[speedminded]

We ALL know that the airplane would have to MOVE down a LONG conveyor belt and would eventually pick up enough speed to take off.

but echo and the other 19 can't grasp the idea that no matter the speed of the conveyor belt the plane will still move forward.

[Xan]

Ok, what do you suppose is keeping the airplane stationary on the conveyor?

nm, you answered it here. You do understand that the conveyor has no effect on how much air the plane can pull and or push right?

Yes I understand this. The point I was making is that a jet engine pushes all the air out the back of the plane. None of the air is pushed over the wings. Therefore, a jet wouldn't be able to lift off on a progressive conveyor belt.

A prop plane, since it forces wind from the front of the plane backwards over the wings, would. Even if it were stationary the windspeed generated by the propeller would lift it off the ground.

[Xan]

It doesn't match thrust...It matches the SPEED of the plane. Read the problem again! First page, first post by me...

..and the speed at which the plane travels while in lift-off is directly related to the amount of thrust created so...how is what I said any different?

[joecoolfreak]

A prop plane, since it forces wind from the front of the plane backwards over the wings, would. Even if it were stationary the windspeed generated by the propeller would lift it off the ground.

No, a prop plane would never be able to take off on just the wind pushed back by the propeller...the plane has to be moving forward to take off. A propeller does not push air backwards to work, it pulls the plane forwards through the air.

[Ruiner]

..and the speed at which the plane travels while in lift-off is directly related to the amount of thrust created so...how is what I said any different?

It's related, but they are not always equal. You can only be under 30% throttle and still have the necessary speed for takeoff. You can also be at 100% thrust and still take off as well. 2000lbs of thrust = what speed? See what I mean? Just like in your car, does 100% throttle from a 20mph punch up to 60mph match up? Nope. You can punch it to 90% throttle while at 30mph and only hold it for 5 seconds and then drop it off to 0% throttle, yet your speed will still be up there.

[speedminded]

Yes I understand this. The point I was making is that a jet engine pushes all the air out the back of the plane. None of the air is pushed over the wings. Therefore, a jet wouldn't be able to lift off on a progressive conveyor belt.

A prop plane, since it forces wind from the front of the plane backwards over the wings, would. Even if it were stationary the windspeed generated by the propeller would lift it off the ground.

no no no....prop plane does not force air over the wings...the prop pulls and a jet pushes but neither have anything to do with the wings. The wings provide lift as a plane reaches a certain forward speed.

BUT as i said before, quit thinking about how a plane flies and figure out why a plane can move forward on a conveyor just like any other runway, no matter what the speed of the conveyor is.

[man]

No, a prop plane would never be able to take off on just the wind pushed back by the propeller...the plane has to be moving forward to take off. A propeller does not push air backwards to work, it pulls the plane forwards through the air.

I saw you on 400 on the way back from the V, just before you got off at your exit.

[BABY J]

Yes I understand this. The point I was making is that a jet engine pushes all the air out the back of the plane. None of the air is pushed over the wings. Therefore, a jet wouldn't be able to lift off on a progressive conveyor belt.



A prop plane, since it forces wind from the front of the plane backwards over the wings, would. Even if it were stationary the windspeed generated by the propeller would lift it off the ground.

So what you are saying is --> apply brakes in a prop, increase power to full, then pop the brakes and take off in 5 feet (random #)? Not gonna happen buddy!

[{X}Echo419]

PLEASE tell me all of the "no it will not fly" people get this.

ECHO. All I need is a DIRECT yes or no answer on if the plane will stand still or move forward on the treadmill once the engines are fired. I'm begging you to answer this.

And if we are using a progressive conveyor belt that will ALWAYS match the amount of thrust put out, then a jet aircraft will never take off because it couldn't build any windspeed.

THIS IS THE LAST TIME I TRY TO GET THROUGH YOUR(AND OTHERS) THICK SKULL)
you DO know what thrust is? don't you fly boy?

If thrust is great enough to over come the loss(because if the plane is shut off and put on the treadmill it will go backwords. Do you get that?) of land speed from the treadmill it can take off.
Anything less than that will result in a loud plane on the ground.
Now, initally(sp) the question was posed(I assume. b/c that's how it was posed b4) with the plane land speed(that is how fast the plane would be going on NORMAL ground. do you understand?) matching that of the treadmill. which(don't drop your sippy cup!) would NOT result in a flying plane.

[{X}Echo419]

So what you are saying is --> apply brakes in a prop, increase power to full, then pop the brakes and take off in 5 feet (random #)? Not gonna happen buddy!

you're on the right track.

[BABY J]

THE MATCHING IS THE SPEED OF THE PLANE (just like my wheelchair example when I hold the chair from moving AT ALL), NOT THE FUCKING THRUST!!!!! I DROPPED MY SIPPY CUP B/C YOU NEED IT MORE THAN I DO TARD! READ THE DAMN 1ST POST LADY!!!

[Ruiner]

If thrust is great enough to over come the loss(because if the plane is shut off and put on the treadmill it will go backwords. Do you get that?) of land speed from the treadmill it can take off.
.

Would you agree that initially, the plane would not go backwards at the speed of the conveyor belt, though? Would you agree that it would go back slowly at first, and then pick up speed? All because of the free rolling wheels, yes?

[BABY J]

you're on the right track.

BWA BWA BWA BWA HA HA HA!!!!! YOU'RE A DUMBASS!!!

[man]

Echo are you in school?