Q for those who support us being in Iraq

[Complication]

I haven’t read all of it, just enough to the point where the thread started to degrade into a name calling battle.. there WERE... SOME.. intelligent things being said in this thread. honestly IA, I am impressed!

When it comes down to it, I will be doing what I believe The United States of America was originally intending for it's citizens to do... that is COVERING YOUR OWN Ass, not living according to the whims of governmental powers. The personal liberties and freedoms granted to me under US citizenship I plan to take full advantage of. I will be Minding my own plight on this earth. There are wars to be fought and people to confuse, empires to destroy in this world; but I will not be taking one step to stop them until they are upon my American soil.
I am all for Political support of foreign entities and for America to keep a "one up" on the “super power” hold...by all means do what ever it takes to maintain power in this modern global community... things like espionage?!! Common, The USA was founded by a bunch of criminals who snuck out from under the king’s nose and said, NO we won't take these taxes that England levied on us... If you think that the USA or any country can maintain supremacy by sitting down and talking it over with other nations than you are wrong! The cut throat nations out there will still "Cut your throat" no matter how civilized you are...Find me a country that has never committed a "sneaky" act to maintain the upper hand in this world... it simply does not exist. Now the killing of innocents and raping of women I will take a stand on and not condone in any manner what so ever.

Now to what cost do I count my freedom worth to me? The lives of others? possibly.... the life of my self? For sure... Come now, if my freedom was bought with just one more live... I'd accept it. If one person had to die in order that the United States stays free than I can live with that. If it were my life… Let what will be, be... freedom is never free
In old American tradition .. "do not tread on me"... I will bite..

In reading the first post; it is an interesting theory to say the least and plausible. The American culture has been duped before it’s not the first time the proverbial “wool” has been pulled over a society’s eyes in history. But to be honest, it is a moot point. The point of being in the East is to accomplish the AMERICAN agenda. To do what it takes to render ourselves a dominate force in the world both economically and politically. This “anti American” stigma that has been circulating in the past few years I can only attribute to the global society that we have come to be a part of; with the advancements of electronic communication and things of a similar nature, we have effectively become one giant room of blundering head talkers who do nothing but point out the wrongs that each nation has committed. This Stigma, from my research, seems to stem from beliefs that come from foreign powers and immigrants who are in political support of their home countries. Utilizing our own American privileges (such as freedom of speech) voices of the non-privileged parties (such as illegal aliens or legal aliens who do not believe in American ideals but take advantage of the rights bestowed upon them) are given spotlight to undermine the Authority and resolve of the United States of America.

Over the next 20 or so years I can see a new era being ushered in, as if the “golden age” of America is coming to an abrupt end and ushering in an era of intolerance and injustice among the worlds nations, and the U.N as only adding Fuel to the fire, creating a breeding ground for distrust and distain for opposing forces.

But my opinion about the UN is reserved for another post. I could go on and on… but it’s 3AM. I honestly can’t believe it if you even read this far. You want more let me know, I can drum up another page or so of thoughts. I know for sure some of you will not agree with me. The Debate and arguments about the foundation of this country have been, and will be fought over for the remainder of our great country’s course. Unless one power is given total control then we will continue in this manner for the rest of time. The Problem we run into is that when we are unsure of our and resolve as Americans, the rest of the world will exploit that and it will be our downfall.

[Complication]

If I recall Iraq had zero ties to the hijackers.. their ties led to Afghanistan .

on a side note I believe you are mistaken.. those who were accused of conducting the attacks on the Trade Towers were found to have received monetary support from funding that came from or through Iraq. Terrorist Cells, training camps, and general aid were given to the men's organization and so that area was deemed by the US government to be in support of Terrorist activities.

[man]

I think that people will always try to find reasons to ***** about the government, whether it's justified or not.

[RandomGuy]

on a side note I believe you are mistaken.. those who were accused of conducting the attacks on the Trade Towers were found to have received monetary support from funding that came from or through Iraq. Terrorist Cells, training camps, and general aid were given to the men's organization and so that area was deemed by the US government to be in support of Terrorist activities.

same intelligence reports where some of those alleged hijackers turned up alive?

[Complication]

same intelligence reports where some of those alleged hijackers turned up alive?

No I'm sure something like that would have been filed in a different report.. lol.
Alot of people make it sound like there is this "single Person" filing all these reports and submitting intelligence on behalf of the US. As if Bush is on the ground himself gathering the intel on our enemies. To purposely mislead the American Citizens. Remember this is not the case, hundreds of people are submitting these "reports" everyday and it is the Whitehouse's job to decipher these statements and come up with a solution using the given information. I don't have time to go into a long post but I will say they do the "best" job possible at it. I put "Best" in quotes because that is a Relative term and should not be taken as if I am blindly backing the Whitehouse decisions...

lol, edit: I some how lost my ninja so I had to put him back in there.

[Glides]

No I'm sure something like that would have been filed in a different report.. lol.
Alot of people make it sound like there is this "single Person" filing all these reports and submitting intelligence on behalf of the US. As if Bush is on the ground himself gathering the intel on our enemies. To purposely mislead the American Citizens. Remember this is not the case, hundreds of people are submitting these "reports" everyday and it is the Whitehouse's job to decipher these statements and come up with a solution using the given information. I don't have time to go into a long post but I will say they do the "best" job possible at it. I put "Best" in quotes because that is a Relative term and should not be taken as if I am blindly backing the Whitehouse decisions...

lol, edit: I some how lost my ninja so I had to put him back in there.

As I stated before, ALL intel reports are open to blatant human falacies. They can be swayed by emotion just the same as any other thing that is written. Unless there are hard photos, everything is open to speculation. I agree with you too that they do the "best" they can. PRoblem is, most people that decipher and read those reports work about as hard as Aiport Security does. Everyone wants aiport security to work hard and efficient but yet they still only make minimum or just above it. How can you care when you don't get paid for it or in the case of report shufflers, has no bearing on y our immediate daily life.

America is the land of the free (as long as you do what the government says) and the Home of the blame.

"So Bob, you hear about those intel reports that you missfiled?"

"Wasn't me Kurt, I gave em to Larry"

"So Larry, you hear about those intel reports you got from Bob that got misfiled and we blew up a church instead of an ammo dump?"

"Wasn't me Kurt, I gave em to Bob"

And the chain of no accountability just stretches out farther and farther.

You want to fix government, you hold them accountable for their actions.
For instance, the leader of the FDA (Food and Drug Administration) of China was EXECUTED for taking bribes, something damm near every politician does all the time from Lobbyists. Dead, kaputski, do not pass go, do not collect 200 bucks but dead. That's what should happen now in this country. Hold them accountable and by god the bull**** would stop short.

[95alty]

Truthfully... Im not supposed to voice my opinion but **** it... I agree with the morals of the whole ideal of us being in iraq... But i dont agree with the reason. My buddy touched down in iraq planning on looking for WMDs... All he did was patrol neighborhoods and shoot hajis for 9 months... Not too many units even searched for WMDs from what i understand in our monthly briefs... But hell our opinion is rather our own. I leave for Iraq "supposedly" this summer for a quick tour and training... Im not afraid because most of the fighting is minimal to none... Just random boredom is the epidemic and the media tells its lies to us about "OH ANOTHER ROADSIDE BOMB" "MORE SOLDIERS WERE KILLED".... bull****... most of the time when we hear about it it is rather 3 days to a week old... and when it is a roadside bomb... most likely someone wasnt doing their job or patrolling their post.

But ya i agree with us for safety and moral reasons... none economic... and hell im not complaining i enjoy cheaper gas prices and dont front like no one else does


SEMPER FI LADIES....

[Alan®]

I have been doing some reading on an interesting theory for an alternate reason we are in Iraq right now and it has nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction.

In a nutshell the U.S keeps its hold on oil through the American dollar, since it accounts for over 60% of all oil reserve activity and over 90% of all foreign exchange involves the dollar theoretically.. the U.S can act as the world bank by printing a currency that is accepted across the globe. If anything threatens this it could be detrimental to the value of the dollar (as we are seeing) and the U.S economy.

Stick with me cause I know it sounds boring but I'm sure you see where I am going with this. In 2000 Iraq (Second largest oil reserve in the world) announced that they will no longer accept dollars and only deal in Euros.. Since then we have gone into Iraq and installed a government that will maintain their oil reserves in U.S dollars. Other countries that are following expressed intent to drop the dollar and trade in Euros? Iran, Venezuela, China, Russia.. see a pattern?

My question, first do you believe everything the government tells you?

Second, how do you feel about a war that is perceived to be about our freedom but could possibly have nothing to do with freedom and everything to do with the U.S remaining an economic power in the world?

To answer the OP your theory makes sense but I would personally have to do more research on my own before I were to say I completely agree with you

To question 1. No I do not believe everything that the government tells me. Nor do I believe everything I say on the news in the papers or anything else. Believe half of what you hear and none of what you see.

To question 2.at this point it doesn't matter we are in a war with people's lives in the balence and we as a country have absolutely no choice but to succeed in Iraq and Afghanistan. If we don't 9-11 will happen again. It is because we have had tocuh and go relationships with leaders that attacks like 9-11 and abroad on U.S. personell have happened. Allow me to explain.

Back during the Cold War Russia was invading Aghanistan and at the time the head of the militia was one Ossama Bin Laden. And of course he asked the U.S. for assistance so instead of sending our own troops to the region we sent C.l.A. operatives with supplies to train the militia to be able to take down the Russians and eventually we defeated them but once things with Bin Laden went south we destroyed his credibility and left him in the dust. Because of our actions 9-11 happened. Pick up a high school history book all the info is there just no one ever reads it hell we barely skimmed over that part in my history class in high school. I find it funny that we did because it's one of the things that people don't want my generation to know that hey guess what we ****ed up and we got what was coming to us. And the same goes with Iraq at one point we supported them sent aid then when things didn't go the way we wanted to cut ties, destroy credibility, and invade. Begining to see a pattern? What do you think will happen with Pakistan? If the President of Pakistan does not continue to be our pupet we will cut ties destroy credibility and eventually invade. And the only good I see coming out of it is finally being able to find bin laden(if he's still alive which I don't entirely believe.)

[Alan®]

If I recall Iraq had zero ties to the hijackers.. their ties led to Afghanistan so please explain to me how the world trade attacks had anything to do with Saddam Hussein and Iraq.

The original theory still has not been addressed.. please tell me you do not believe Oil and Economic supremacy has nothing to do with why we are in Iraq.

The "love it or leave it" mentality is amazing, a democracy is built with checks and balances.. one of those checks being the people. We are SUPPOSED to question the government, if we do not hold elected officials accountable then there is no telling how far it goes.

I never said that Iraq had any ties to the hijackers so umm yea.I appologize for not adressing your OP Zedfunks post caught my attention because I was just dealing with people on the Hawaii forums with Tank who say they hate the U.S. yet they live in our country.

As far as the love it or leave it mentality I understand exactly what you are saying but according to Zedfunk's post he does not support anything that our government does. Which is why I said he should just leave because if you don't agree with anything that the country is doing why stay? there are plenty of people all over the world that do it? See what I'm saying?

[Alan®]

has a serious lack of brain power....he is like the person you see on the TV making stupid remarks and making him self look like a complete jackass

I actually don't go read two of my threads from yesterday in this section and tell me that I still have a lack of brain power.

[Alan®]

The ball was rolling well before the 2004 election, its hard to argue hard facts on a hypothetical.. there is no telling where we would be if Bush was not in office.

Exactly

[Alan®]

Man, i'm really having a tough time not laughing at you outright cause I like ya. But seriously, you need to hop off the Bushcocktrain and take in a little bit of light reading.

Every country that has boots on the ground in Iraq followed OUR intelligence reports. They followed OUR lead. WE did it and we did it on intelligence reports that were actually in effect since 1998 when Bill Clinton was still in office.

Memorable quote for you.

“I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force — if necessary — to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.”
– Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

And another

“Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime … He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation … And now he is miscalculating America’s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction … So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real…”
– Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003


Probably would be in the same boat with Kerry. OR a worse one when he didn't stay the course and pulled out early.

Oh yea.

“In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members … It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.”
– Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

Hillary was in on it too. So was Bill

“If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction program.”
–President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

Tom Daschle and lots of other Democrats completely agreed.
“[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs.”
Letter to President Clinton, signed by:
– Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, Oct. 9, 1998

And finally

Not two months after he signed the Iraq Liberation Act into law, President Clinton delivered an address to the nation explaining his decision to order air strikes against Iraqi military targets. He discussed the potential long-term threat posed by Saddam Hussein, stating,

“The hard fact is that so long as Saddam Hussein remains in power, he threatens the well- being of his people, the peace of his region, the security of the world. The best way to end that threat once and for all is with the new Iraqi government, a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people.

“. . . Heavy as they are, the costs of inaction must be weighed against the price of inaction. If Saddam defies the world and we fail to respond, we will face a far greater threat in the future. Saddam will strike again at his neighbors; he will make war on his own people. And mark my words, he will develop weapons of mass destruction. He will deploy them, and he will use them.”

The words, again, of President Clinton.

The intel was from 1998 and before, it was intel that was passed from the administration before to the Bush administration and that was all Bush needed (along with 9/11) to justify going to war with Iraq. If they would have bothered to update the intel, things might have been different. Instead, they went over there and found nothing. We waged war on a country, disposed a leader and in the process blew up one of the very first Lamborghini LM002's ever produced to test out an IED (for which I will NEVER forgive some ignorant American troops) all because we neglected to check things out first.

Here's a link to that fiasco. Stupid GI's
http://www.lamborghiniregistry.com/L...ayHussein.html

[B]See, I do have an idea of Military Intelligence gathering[B] having gathered it on the Soviet Navy while serving in the Military. It's not fail safe and is wide open to interpretation unless it involves concrete evidence such as pictures and even those can be altered. It consists of first hand accounts, hearsay and outright guesses and hunches. Add all that up, let it sit on a desk somewhere in paper trail land and when someone finally gets around to looking at it, it's usually no good or expired. And that is just on non-sensitive stuff like Rusiian naval ships.

In the end we failed. We didn't use prudence and forthought before leaping headlong into was war with the Middle East. Because in the end, that is what we did. We attacked Iraq, Iraq is leading to Afghanistan and on to Iran. From there, who knows where it will lead. But unless someone puts a stop to the madness, it will eventually lead to bad times for us. Believe that.

Best written post I have read so far.

Adressing the bolded When i said what I did it was not directed at you as I was going to write up a post using much of the same quotes as you did but yesterday was my birthday and I'm in boston spending time with the family who I have not seen in 12 years.

[collins]

first off, i would like to applaud the vast majority of you in this thread for conducting extremly well thought out arguments. this is, i believe, the first time i've ever seen this kind of deductive reasoning on this site. reps to everyone i can for keeping it civil (for the most part) and making for some VERY good reading.

that being said, i believe most people in her have brought about valid arguments as to what they believe. i will go ahead and state that while i support our president, i do not necessarily agree with all of his decisions. again, that being said, i'd like to remind everyone that it is not just good 'ol g.dub making these decisions. congress can veto just about any bill that the pres tries to get passed if they find it inadequate or unnecessary after review. lol he most definatly is not the best public speaker, but his speaking falacies aren't AS common (note: not saying they dont happen lol) as the media and those funny little calanders try to convey.

as previously stated by a couple of you, the intel that there were WMDs (lol @ team america reference) was gathered by troops on the ground and not by bush himself, but i also think that the dateline of such intel should've been observed more closely than it was. if more recent findings would have shown that they had been moved/sold then the outcome of what happened might've been different. however, i do believe that bringing saadam (i dont think i spelled that right) down was a definate plus. however, the man that this whole war was started over has yet to be accounted for. personally, i believe that is part of the reason we're still over there in such force, as well as to keep protecting american soil. while attacks on us are few and far between since we're over there, i cant help but think somehow somewhere more terrorists (not necessarily of middle eastern decent) are/will be plotting yet another attack. but that is for a different day.

tony, to answer your 2 questions...
1: absolutly not. i take in every bit of info given and try to use my own logic to decide wether i need to agree or disagree with what the media is trying to portray.

2: i think you have a valid point and agree to an extent, but i disagree if your point was that is the only reason we're currently over there. however, if it is one factor of the decision to remain, then i'll support it. if they're doing all they can to regulate the value of the dollar then i'm all for it.

again, kudos to everybody in this thread as many valid points and arguments have been brought forth.


edit:
damn, am i REALLY reading this in the WHORESLOUNGE?!?!?! i am impressed.

[.93lude]

I wouldnt necessarily say its the beginning of the end, the Great depression was significantly worse off than we are. I have seen graphs that show the Great Depression being 20 times worse economically than what we have now.

What is going on now is an ongoing cycle, the economy has a strong run then it corrects itself, its nothing out of the ordinary BUT we have a government that isnt exactly helping the process move along like it should. Interest rates have been above 20% in the 80's, gas prices have sky rocketed before.. it all happens but believe it or not, those who make a fortune do it in times like these.

It all depends on how you look at the glass.. at half empty the economy is falling apart, the housing market has tanked etc. At half full there are tons of real estate steals to be had, and we have seen the worse of this decline and beginning to move upward.

[tony]

on a side note I believe you are mistaken.. those who were accused of conducting the attacks on the Trade Towers were found to have received monetary support from funding that came from or through Iraq. Terrorist Cells, training camps, and general aid were given to the men's organization and so that area was deemed by the US government to be in support of Terrorist activities.

First.. your post #41, great post . I start these threads with little to few expectations. usually they just get pushed down by all the drama or BS that makes the whoreslounge what it is. I am actually delighted to read all of the arguments here which brings me to my next point.

My whole purpose of asking these questions wasnt to say "Damn, lets go overthrow the government" or to point fingers but rather open a couple of minds here. We have all talked about it, people tend not to think for out side of the box and take whatever the media feeds them. So those of you who say none of this matters at this point it matters more than you could ever imagine.. as long as you turn the cheek to what is being done in the white house or congress the more stuff like this will happen.

Even Thomas Jefferson saw the writing on the wall well before it came to be reality. To quote:

Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government. Whenever things get so far wrong as to attract their notice, they may be relied on to set them to rights.

I don't understand why America can be considered so great when more and more citizens are afraid or too distracted to question the individuals WE put into power.

To respond about the 9/11 attacks and Iraq. We of all people should know where the ties lay since we helped empower both Bin Laden (once considered a freedom fighter to the United States) and Sadam Hussein. Neither the CIA or the UK's MI6 have reported any viable evidence that Iraq had anything to do with the September 11th attacks.

Furthermore Sadam Hussein believed in oppression for the religious Shi'ite majority and Al Qaeda terrorists who support an extremist form of Islam.. to say that they came together to attack us would be on par with the Klu Klux Klan and NAACP rallying for a common cause.

Whats amazing is that we build up these nations or offer support and then they turn on us (or vice versa) Almost any country we have conflict with today we have armed in the past so it is not far fetched to say that even with a government put in place by the U.S, we may be at war with Iraq in a couple of decades.

By the way I do not think this theory is the only reason we are in Iraq but you cannot convince me that it was just a fringe benefit of invading Iraq either.

[Alan®]

^See post 48 you and I are on the same page

[1000cckiller]

I see your connection but don't see that as the reason form going in. If what you say is correct then we can also assume that the attacks on 9/11 were orchastrated by the US as a way to go to war against the one man daddy bush didn't take down.

OPEC has also been talking about switching to the Euro instead of the dollar. It makes good business sense really. The Euro is one of the strongest currencies right now. It trades for almost 2 dollar to the euro. If I was a member of OPEC, and I sat back and saw how the US tries to dictate pretty much everything, I would do it too.

I agree with XLR8NMR2. The future for this country is so scary at this point in time, i'm glad im 38 so i'll be damm near old and dead when this new crop of sadass young people takes over. The youth today is quite possibly the stupidest, laziest and most Apathetic bunch of scrubs as there ever have been in our nations history. The instant gratification lifestyle coupled with ****ty parents who no longer spank kids has lead to just a bunchh of sorryasses. I'd rather shoot half the kids I see rather than try to talk to them with their pants around their ankles and disrespectful attitude to everything.

Getting close to time to move out of the country and go to greener paastures.

But we can say that the government, ignore warnings.

[On_Her_Face]

america is going to hell in a handbasket.

[1SICKLEX]

George Washington's advice to future presidents was not to meddle in world affairs. Well we are the worlds biggest affair.

You have to ask yourself, who had MOST to gain, by us going into Iraq?

Clearly, the reasons the American people were told were a lie and the war still wages to this day, killing our troops, innocents and so many people.

Lets see, we blame Sadaam, kill him and terrorism still exists.


"Syrania" was a great movie on this kind of topic.

Much like Bin Ladden in Afghanistan and Musharraf in Pakistan, etc, we pick sides, **** them over and then label them the bad guy.

SO much shady **** has gone on that we cannot even imagine and well, naturally, when someone feels FOCKED, they are going to retaliate.

The World is realizing America is not just a beautiful place to move to and all is gravy here. America was loved for "Saving" the world in WWII. Well instead of packing up and staying home, we decide to stay everywhere in the world and INFLUENCE the world and other governments. Now its obvious our leaders do what they want to do to benefit themselves and their buddies who get all the contracts.