Will the plane take off? v. Mythbusters!!! (VIDEO on Page 38)

[Wurm]

We've known the answer to this for years. It's Newtonian ****ing physics. If you answer no you should kill yourself now.

its easy to make something work on paper but to make it work it real life is a different story. A lot more other factors are going to play apart in this then you think. Paper is based on a error free worlds so we will see what happens

[Ruiner]

its easy to make something work on paper but to make it work it real life is a different story. A lot more other factors are going to play apart in this then you think. Paper is based on a error free worlds so we will see what happens

Not really. Science is science. You've seen the "small scale" models work on Youtube and whatnot. It will still perform the same in a large scale model as well. That's what models are...

[Ruiner]

Yup. I've always said no to this but I've also interpreted it as the conveyor belt is freewheeling and unpowered so that it matches whatever forward speed the plane has with an equal backwards speed. Overall velocity is zero since no distance is covered, with no headwind its airspeed is zero and no lift will be generated.

If the conveyor belt is at a constant speed then yes the plane should be able to accelerate and take off in time. The problem is vague and left open to lots of interpretation.

But you are contradicting the question...

The question says that the treadmill MATCHES the speed of the plane. If the plane is stationary (ie, it has no speed), then neither does the treadmill.

[Ruiner]

I'm not reading through the entire thread.....

But the plane, in theory, WILL MOVE FORWARD, it will have to work a little harder because the wheels, even free rolling, has a lot of friction within itself (bearings, etc.). The reason the plane will move forwards is because the plane's propulsion is not via the wheels, it is via the jets which are mounted on the wings and have no relation to how fast or slow the wheels are spinning. The wheels are merely there to hold the plane up, not move it forward.

This is my take on it. If you're takeoff throttle position is @ wide open throttle and it takes you 45seconds to reach takeoff speed, it may take a little longer to reach takeoff speed with a conveyor belt going in reverse for the simple fact that the wheels will be creating friction on its bearings that the jets have to overcome.

That's my take. So I vote YES that it will take off.

The highlighted part is something that should be mentioned. They actually have a LITTLE friction in respect to everything else, not a lot. Compare it to the thrust of a jet or the prop of an airplane. I'm just clearing that up for you.

[BABY J]

thats because i stopped training. im gonna start from the beginning again at mtsu. all i need to renew is a physical i think. so go to my myspace for my name im not going post up my drivers license.

No. You're gonna need a phy and 7 hours w/ an IP. Ask me how I know.

[Ruiner]

I can't wait for this show to air so that you people that said "no" will see why you are wrong... Then again, maybe you'll never see it...

[joecoolfreak]

I think it's interesting that the people who say no seem to be so sure...yet aren't taking any of the numerous bets for the yes side. I personally will throw 100/per person paypal on the yes side for any takers on the no side. =-)

[BuBBa DRiFT]

anyone willing to make a permanent ban wager with me?

I say the plane WILL take off if they can obtain the velocity needed for the plan to take off.

If I lose this bet, ban me permanently, if the person i bet with, loses the bet, they are banned permanently. PM me if you want this challenge.

[BuBBa DRiFT]

to all the smart people saying YES, quit explaining it!, we have a chance to get money and stuff, they will find out soon enough when they are handing over the benjaminssssssss

[On_Her_Face]

anyone willing to make a permanent ban wager with me?

I say the plane WILL take off if they can obtain the velocity needed for the plan to take off.

If I lose this bet, ban me permanently, if the person i bet with, loses the bet, they are banned permanently. PM me if you want this challenge.

uncertain you sound.

[Echonova]

anyone willing to make a permanent ban wager with me?

I say the plane WILL take off if they can obtain the velocity needed for the plan to take off.

If I lose this bet, ban me permanently, if the person i bet with, loses the bet, they are banned permanently. PM me if you want this challenge.

Of course the plane will take off IF it obtains the velocity it needs......

[BuBBa DRiFT]

uncertain you sound.

i dont know if they will be able to obtain the speed needed in their experiment. i mean, theoretically its possible, i know. but what im saying is, what if something goes wrong in their experiment and people quote me saying "Oh, well the plane didnt take off so you lose the bet LOLOLOLO" Im trying to protect myself from douchebags is all.


IM going to rephrase it:

I am willing to put anything on the line, that in fact, if nothing goes wrong in their experiment, and they have the capability of sense, to achieve the correct specifications to make the plane theoretically take off, the plane will, indeed take off.

does that help any?

[fucksohc]

how could the plane take off if it isnt moving?

[On_Her_Face]

i dont know if they will be able to obtain the speed needed in their experiment. i mean, theoretically its possible, i know. but what im saying is, what if something goes wrong in their experiment and people quote me saying "Oh, well the plane didnt take off so you lose the bet LOLOLOLO" Im trying to protect myself from douchebags is all.


IM going to rephrase it:

I am willing to put anything on the line, that in fact, if nothing goes wrong in their experiment, and they have the capability of sense, to achieve the correct specifications to make the plane theoretically take off, the plane will, indeed take off.

does that help any?

yes and no.. no because part of the experiment is getting everything right and if something goes wrong thats their fault u know..

btw on the trade how much cash were u wanting on my end 10k or 11k?

[Ruiner]

how could the plane take off if it isnt moving?

If the plane isn't moving, neither is the treadmill. Remember, the treadmill matches the speed of the plane...

The plane will move forward, trust me.

[RUENVUS]

I teach peeps to fly and don't even know the answer. I'm half no and half yes i guess. When does the show air?

[Ruiner]

I teach peeps to fly and don't even know the answer. I'm half no and half yes i guess. When does the show air?

Dec 12th

You should know given that your wheels are free rolling...

[Kyle]

I stand by my answer from the other poll. YES.

The wheels are free rolling. Its not like a car where the wheels propel the car. If a car were on the treadmill and the treadmill matched its speed it would be stationary. A plane however is not propelled by the wheels, its moved by thrust of a jet engine. So it would definitely move forward, and likely take off.

But mythbusters are just hack engineers IMHO, I dont really trust their work.

[Echonova]

I stand by my answer from the other poll. YES.

But mythbusters are just hack engineers IMHO, I dont really trust their work.

X2

[Crazy Asian]

I hate these sort perplex problems. Youll never know till you try....which is what I hate.

[RUENVUS]

Dec 12th

You should know given that your wheels are free rolling...

Marks Dec. 12 on calender. Ok, so my wheels are free rolling, does that mean that there is a certain velocity of air for the wing to produce sufficient lift? I only took basic physics in college, so this may be out of my grasp. But I was always taught that there had to be some sort of velocity over the wing to produce lift. One of the main factors of the lift equation is velocity. I've confused myself

[IDCoconut]

^ And how does an airplane produce its lift? By moving its big ass self forward. Now HOW does it move forward? Via the prop/jet/whatever, not the wheels.

It's not saying that the plane will take off by rolling it on a treadmill, it's saying the plane will still take off by using its own power even if it is on a treadmill where the platform is spinning reverse to the plane's wheel rotation.

[IDCoconut]

how could the plane take off if it isnt moving?

it doesn't. planes actually just teleport to their destination. the things you see in the sky are just paper airplanes.

[Dietcoke]

The plane will simply move forward and take off, just like it would on a fixed surface. The wheels will just be spinning twice as fast, they don't propel it. The plane is not linked to the surface of the ground, so why would it moving one way or the other have any effect on THRUST? Oh, it doesnt. Idiots.

[d993s]

If the treadmill is the length of whatever length a normal runway needs to be, it will gain enough speed and finally take off.

You said that it WILL clear the treadmill, so you admit that it will move forward. Well, given a long enough treadmill (typical runway), it will gain speed and lift.

I hate repeating myself, but what the hell........
I just want to make sure you're still insisting it will fly off the treadmill........

Sure, it will move forward if full throttle power overcomes the speed of the treadmill, but it needs sufficient LIFT under its wings to fly, which it will NOT have if its barely going 5-10mph.
Why is this so difficult for you to understand?
Lift is required for a plane to fly. Forward motion at a high rate of speed (all relative to the size, weight, and wing angle/size of the plane) are what allow it to CREATE lift due to air passing under its wings. So then if the plane is on a treadmill, how is lift provided for it to take off? Again, it is NOT a helicopter or anything rocket powered that ascends vertically. GET IT?

[Fast Shadow]

There is nothing for it to overcome, which is what you don't understand. The wheels don't drive the plane, the engines do. The fact you're still arguing about this shows you never took a physics class in your life.

Go look at a moving walkway at an airport. Now imagine there is a rope tied to a pole at one end of the walkway. Now imagine you're standing on a skateboard, holding onto the rope, at the other end of the walkway. You can use the rope to pull yourself from one end of the walkway to the the other using the same amount of effort regardless if the walkway is turned on or off.

Get it?

[d993s]

There is nothing for it to overcome, which is what you don't understand. The wheels don't drive the plane, the engines do. The fact you're still arguing about this shows you never took a physics class in your life.

Go look at a moving walkway at an airport. Now imagine there is a rope tied to a pole at one end of the walkway. Now imagine you're standing on a skateboard, holding onto the rope, at the other end of the walkway. You can use the rope to pull yourself from one end of the walkway to the the other using the same amount of effort regardless if the walkway is turned on or off.

Get it?

Yes, it will move forward, but not up.
Why didn't you just ask me what color the red car is?

[Magnus213]

There is nothing for it to overcome, which is what you don't understand. The wheels don't drive the plane, the engines do. The fact you're still arguing about this shows you never took a physics class in your life.

Go look at a moving walkway at an airport. Now imagine there is a rope tied to a pole at one end of the walkway. Now imagine you're standing on a skateboard, holding onto the rope, at the other end of the walkway. You can use the rope to pull yourself from one end of the walkway to the the other using the same amount of effort regardless if the walkway is turned on or off.

Get it?

This analogy is exactly correct because the speed of the moving sidewalk is constant. Is the speed of the runway constant in the problem, or does it change to match the speed of the wheels?

[d993s]

Take off (in this instance) means FLY. As in UP IN THE SKY, like birds or Superman.

Some of you can't seem to grasp the concept of flight, especially how a plane flies.

[speedminded]

Sweeet, why didn't anyone tell me about this thread! I'm gonna bump the other one now just for shits and giggles

[Fast Shadow]

Of course it will move up, because it will gain lift and take off. It will use the same amount of runway to take off regardless of whether or not the runway is solid concrete or a moving conveyor belt.

[speedminded]

Yes, it will move forward, but not up.
Why didn't you just ask me what color the red car is?

WTF If it can move forward then what's preventing lift and it taking off just like any other runway?!

[RUENVUS]

^ And how does an airplane produce its lift? By moving its big ass self forward. Now HOW does it move forward? Via the prop/jet/whatever, not the wheels.

It's not saying that the plane will take off by rolling it on a treadmill, it's saying the plane will still take off by using its own power even if it is on a treadmill where the platform is spinning reverse to the plane's wheel rotation.

Understood, but in the real world, friction comes into play. If the pilot throttles back, the friction in the tires, bearings, etc. will cause the the "treadmill" speed to be of a higher velocity than the wheels rotating on the plane. If there is a long enough runway, yes the plane will take off, as the thrust will over come the treadmill speed.

[speedminded]

Now, we can do a few things with this:

1. I'm going to make a public poll.
2. Perhaps we should start taking bets on this? Ban bets? Money bets? etc.

Get your answers in now. Vote up! Post your bets in here if you want as well. Good luck!

I vote for a 5 year ban for those that say it won't take off!

[speedminded]

Understood, but in the real world, friction comes into play. If the pilot throttles back, the friction in the tires, bearings, etc. will cause the the "treadmill" speed to be of a higher velocity than the wheels rotating on the plane. If there is a long enough runway, yes the plane will take off, as the thrust will over come the treadmill speed.

The speed of the treadmill has no bearing on anything, it can be going twice the speed in reverse as the take-off speed of the plane and it still doesn't matter one bit...it will only makes the wheels spin faster.

[d993s]

Of course it will move up, because it will gain lift and take off. It will use the same amount of runway to take off regardless of whether or not the runway is solid concrete or a moving conveyor belt.

HOW will it gain lift? It needs a high velocity of air under it's wings (which it clearly won't have by traveling at a few mph relative to the ground).

Where is the lift coming from? Maybe if you angle the treadmill at 45 degrees and if the engines have enough power to launch it up like a Harrier Jet.

[RUENVUS]

The speed of the treadmill has no bearing on anything, it can be going twice the speed in reverse as the take-off speed of the plane and it still doesn't matter one bit...it will only makes the wheels spin faster.

ok, i voted yes

[speedminded]

HOW will it gain lift? It needs a high velocity of air under it's wings (which it clearly won't have by traveling at a few mph relative to the ground).

Where is the lift coming from? Maybe if you angle the treadmill at 45 degrees and if the engines have enough power to launch it up like a Harrier Jet.

Think about what you are saying, what (if anything) is preventing the plane from propelling itself forward?

[d993s]

WTF If it can move forward then what's preventing lift and it taking off just like any other runway?!

Air under its wings, DUH!!!!!!!



You're almost saying that if you're in a gym in Atlanta and jog on a treadmill for 20 miles, when you're done jogging you end up in Suwanee.

[speedminded]

Air under its wings, DUH!!!!!!!



That's just like saying that if you're in a gym in Atlanta and jog on a treadmill for 20 miles, when you're done jogging you end up in Suwanee.

A humans location/direction/speed is controlled by their legs right? Which is in direct contact with the ground right? A car on a dyno is propelled by it's wheels right, which is in direct contact with the ground correct?

BUT what are planes powered by, what propels it?