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Thread: Florida drug tests for welfare law is struck down

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    Default Florida drug tests for welfare law is struck down

    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/01/01...ruck-down.html

    http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/...1/document.pdf


    Judge Scriven writes:
    "There is nothing inherent to the condition of being impoverished that supports the conclusion that there is a ‘concrete danger’ that impoverished individuals are prone to drug use or that should drug use occur, that the lives of TANF recipients are ‘fraught with such risks of injury to others that even a momentary lapse of attention can have disastrous consequences’,”

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    There's no data supporting the idea that working class people are prone to drug use either, but my employer tests me as a condition of my employment. I dont see an issue with drug testing being a condition of collecting welfare. If you dont want to be drug tested.... start your own business and do not collect welfare.

    Is welfare a civil right?

    A condition of welfare should be that you're actively seeking and prepared to accept unemployment. If you cant pass a drug test, you're not meeting that criteria.



    I saw this article the other day, i was fairly disappointed in the outcome. I've come to expect nothing but disappointment from government.



    Simple yes or no answer....

    Should a person on illegal drugs be able to collect welfare?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    There's no data supporting the idea that working class people are prone to drug use either, but my employer tests me as a condition of my employment.
    Your employer is not required to test you, and you're not required to work for him.
    I dont see an issue with drug testing being a condition of collecting welfare. If you dont want to be drug tested.... start your own business and do not collect welfare.
    Youre changing the conditions to fit your argument

    Suppose your employer pays you twice a month. After you've done whatever it is you do for him, he tells you the only way you can receive your paycheck is if you pass a drug test.

    Now lets say you smoked one joint last week, another employee does meth, another is an alcoholic, and another smokes cigarettes, and every other employee passes the drug test but you. Why should everyone else receive a check but you?

    Simple yes or no answer....

    Should a person on illegal drugs be able to collect welfare?
    Yes. Especially if a person on legal drugs can collect welfare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    Your employer is not required to test you, and you're not required to work for him. Youre changing the conditions to fit your argument
    I missed the part where anyone was required to be on welfare.

    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    Suppose your employer pays you twice a month. After you've done whatever it is you do for him, he tells you the only way you can receive your paycheck is if you pass a drug test.
    against the law. they can fire me, but have to pay me for time served. I fail to see any connection to welfare.

    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    Now lets say you smoked one joint last week, another employee does meth, another is an alcoholic, and another smokes cigarettes, and every other employee passes the drug test but you. Why should everyone else receive a check but you?
    If i get fired because of drug use, i will accept responsibility for my actions. I make life choices and accept the risks of those choices. Its not your job to pay for my mistakes and its not my job to pay for your mistakes.

    I think you're guilty of connecting this debate to the debate on what should and shouldnt be legal. Should weed be illegal? No it shouldnt. Currently i can be fired for smoking it.... if that's a condition of me earning my money, then i expect the same condition for those who are getting money for free.



    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    Yes. Especially if a person on legal drugs can collect welfare.
    If one employee had sex with his wife, one had sex with his girlfriend, another had sex with a girl he picked up at a bar and another employee raped his neighbor, why should the one who raped his neighbor get fired?? They all had sex, who cares if it was illegal or legal, right?

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    No, anyone using an illegal drug should not be able to collect welfare.

    Plain and Simple

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    The things you decide to stand up for baffles me Blank....

    We live in a time where our government is truly criminal in their actions, where our constitutional rights are be violated on a national scale. We have a president, who by the letter of the law, should be in prison right now... the president that you support unconditionally...

    and one of the things youre passionate about is making sure freeloaders can keep smoking weed. Wheres your thread about veterans losing their benefits?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    I missed the part where anyone was required to be on welfare.
    There is no requirement to be on welfare, what does that have to do with anything?

    against the law. they can fire me, but have to pay me for time served. I fail to see any connection to welfare.
    you just made it.

    I think you're guilty of connecting this debate to the debate on what should and shouldnt be legal.
    You did that. I was just addressing your analogy. The debate is if there is any evidence that poor people are more prone to using drugs. The answer was no.

    If one employee had sex with his wife, one had sex with his girlfriend, another had sex with a girl he picked up at a bar and another employee raped his neighbor, why should the one who raped his neighbor get fired?? They all had sex, who cares if it was illegal or legal, right?
    What does rape have to do with this? Let's stay on topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteAccord View Post
    No, anyone using an illegal drug should not be able to collect welfare.

    Plain and Simple
    These judges seem to disagree with you.

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    GA was apparently waiting on the outcome of this case to implement a simar program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    These judges seem to disagree with you.
    His decision was based on the fact of "concrete danger" and its follow up of drug use. He is coming in direction of future use. He doesnt consider that people who are impoverished that they are currently on the system and is currently using.

    I am ok with helping others in need but not individuals who want taxpayer money to subsidize illegal behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    GA was apparently waiting on the outcome of this case to implement a simar program.
    Not sure where your getting your info, but Georgia already has a law that requires drug testing for certain welfare recipients

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    FWIW i agree with this. I do not think we should drug test people on welfare. There are far better ways to be more efficient in keeping people OFF the system.

    I dont want to have the govt deciding how to spend your money. Alcohol isnt allowed? Drug testing isnt 100% accurate, and where do you draw the line? Cell phones are a luxury, no cable TV , etc. Slippery slope

    The far EASIER way is to limit welfare checks to a time period, if person cannot find work, employ them, if they deny the employment, then no more benefits. Of course case by case examples can be examined such as elderly or physically disabled people.

    But getting people OFF welfare into JOBS is the focus, not policing people on welfare
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post

    A condition of welfare should be that you're actively seeking and prepared to accept unemployment. If you cant pass a drug test, you're not meeting that criteria.



    I saw this article the other day, i was fairly disappointed in the outcome. I've come to expect nothing but disappointment from government.



    Simple yes or no answer....

    Should a person on illegal drugs be able to collect welfare?
    Simple solution that doesnt waste more Tax payer money, if you apply for a job and get denied due to failed drug test, you lose welfare benefits for 3 months.

    problem solved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteAccord View Post
    His decision was based on the fact of "concrete danger" and its follow up of drug use. He is coming in direction of future use. He doesnt consider that people who are impoverished that they are currently on the system and is currently using.
    Why does that matter?

    I am ok with helping others in need but not individuals who want taxpayer money to subsidize illegal behavior.
    So, throw tons more taxpayer money at a problem that virtually doesn't exist?



    Not sure where your getting your info, but Georgia already has a law that requires drug testing for certain welfare recipients
    "Florida passed the measure in 2011, and the case was being closely watched by several other states, including Georgia, which passed similar legislation in 2013 but found it dogged by legal challenges."

    "In Georgia, the law’s rollout was delayed pending the outcome of the Florida legal challenge."

    This was taken directly from the article that was posted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post

    So, throw tons more taxpayer money at a problem that virtually doesn't exist?
    who said it DOESNT exist? I think thats being just as disingenuous as the people claiming all welfare recipients are drug addicted losers.

    I will bet you any amount of money there are people on welfare that use it as a means to support their lifestyle. Its free money to them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vteckidd View Post
    who said it DOESNT exist?
    Florida. Also pulled from the article...

    "State data in Florida also showed that the measure produced few results. Only 108 out of 4,086 people tested — 2.6 percent — were found to have been using narcotics. State records showed that the requirement cost more money to carry out than it saved."

    Of that 2.6 percent, how many of those do you think had a chronic habit, and not just recreational users?

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    Florida. Also pulled from the article...

    "State data in Florida also showed that the measure produced few results. Only 108 out of 4,086 people tested — 2.6 percent — were found to have been using narcotics. State records showed that the requirement cost more money to carry out than it saved."

    Of that 2.6 percent, how many of those do you think had a chronic habit, and not just recreational users?
    Testing methods? What drugs were used? hair samples? I mean, results are skewed either way you try to figure this out. Theres no real way to do it which is why I dont support it at all, that and the intrusion by the govt to dictate how you spend your money.

    I heard some of the DATA was robocalls asking people "DO YOU USE DRUGS"

    Im sure its higher than the test, but not as high as others make it seem. Saying it virtually doesnt exist, I think is a stretch. 2.6% is a lot more than i would have thought. 5% is more likely, 10% is not without question. Im sure the real number is between that.

    EDIT:

    They have to notify you before they administer the test. Which is about as fool proof as a piss test before you get employed. They sell stuff over the counter to pass.

    now that doesnt mean people are accused of widespread gaming the system, but to say it "vurtually doesnt exist" is a mis-nomer.
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    Georgia passed HB 861 requiring drug tests for all individuals applying for Temporary Assistance for Needy Families benefits. Applicants must be notified of the drug testing requirement at the time of application, and are required to pay for the test. If an applicant tests positive the person is ineligible for benefits for one month and until he or she tests negative. A parent's positive test result does not affect the child's eligibility for benefits; however, any benefits received must be disbursed through a protective payee who must also pass a drug test. Governor Deal signed the bill on April 16, 2012 and goes into effect July 1, 2012.
    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    GA was apparently waiting on the outcome of this case to implement a simar program.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vteckidd View Post
    Georgia passed HB 861 requiring drug tests for all individuals applying for Temporary Assistance for Needy Families benefits. Applicants must be notified of the drug testing requirement at the time of application, and are required to pay for the test. If an applicant tests positive the person is ineligible for benefits for one month and until he or she tests negative. A parent's positive test result does not affect the child's eligibility for benefits; however, any benefits received must be disbursed through a protective payee who must also pass a drug test. Governor Deal signed the bill on April 16, 2012 and goes into effect July 1, 2012.
    Blank wont accept that as evidence that Ga requires drug testing for welfare benefits...after all...it was not in the article he posted
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    Quote Originally Posted by geoff View Post
    Blank wont accept that as evidence that Ga requires drug testing for welfare benefits...after all...it was not in the article he posted
    Im not sure if that law was struck down, it could have been. This is all i found

    Drug Testing of Welfare Applicants May be Over Before it Begins in Georgia | Georgia Budget and Policy Institute

    What he probably MEANT to say was that Georgia was waiting on the outcome of this case before it decided to challenge this on its own.

    Florida had won, Georgia would have had precedent to challenge the Feds on the constitutionality of this law
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    Quote Originally Posted by geoff View Post
    Blank wont accept that as evidence that Ga requires drug testing for welfare benefits...after all...it was not in the article he posted
    It hasn't been struck down yet. I never claimed it was. It's rollout has been delayed and it will be legally challenged, like it has in about every other state it's been tried in.

    Fate of Georgia's welfare drug testing law unknown - CBS Atlanta News

    Now that it's been struck down in FL, it will be a matter of time before it happens here.

    Solid effort though, Geoff. Maybe you'll get me next time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vteckidd View Post
    Simple solution that doesnt waste more Tax payer money, if you apply for a job and get denied due to failed drug test, you lose welfare benefits forEVER.

    problem solved.
    I support that idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    There is no requirement to be on welfare, what does that have to do with anything?
    Welfare is not a civil right. If you dont want to take drug tests, dont accept welfare benefits. The condition of welfare should be.... read this clearly............ You should be actively seeking and prepared to accept employment. If you lose your job or are denied a job because of a failed drug test, you're not prepared to accept employment and should be disqualified from welfare.

    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    You did that. I was just addressing your analogy. The debate is if there is any evidence that poor people are more prone to using drugs. The answer was no.
    Its not about whether theyre more or less likely to be on drugs.... that has absolutely nothing to do with anything........... drug testing is a condition of employment in X% of America. If you're on drugs, i view that as you declining 347589175894712358972348957 Jobs and i shouldnt have to pay for your stupid ass to sit at home and not work.

    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    What does rape have to do with this? Let's stay on topic.
    Your comment about legal drugs was on topic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    Its not about whether theyre more or less likely to be on drugs.... that has absolutely nothing to do with anything..........
    Well the judge seems to disagree with you.


    Your comment about legal drugs was on topic?
    I don't think any reasonable, rational person could compare rape to personal recreational drug use. But not everyone is reasonable or rational.

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    Well the judge seems to disagree with you.

    I guess judges have never been wrong...........
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    I also want to point out the lengths Blank will go through to troll people.

    I clearly said I agree with this article he has posted and he has successfully turned it into an argument
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vteckidd View Post
    I guess judges have never been wrong...........
    So this judge was wrong and there is evidence that shows poor people are more prone to use drugs than non-poor people?

    Could you show this peer reviewed evidence?

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    So this judge was wrong and there is evidence that shows poor people are more prone to use drugs than non-poor people?

    Could you show this peer reviewed evidence?

    OH I DONT KNOW, maybe this

    -fig2-7-gif

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    Wow. Too bad that judge didnt see that context-less bar graph. This changes everything! Lulz

    Edit: I'm assuming you're seriously not using that as evidence and just joking right?

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    Im sorry but having a discussion with people like Blank is impossible, very contradicting, and only cares about facts that he seems to care about. Its like talking to someone who is extremely narrow minded.

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    DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

    not peer reviewed doe

    What context do you need? its a study that shows that between the years of 2002-2004 the people they surveyed by income level, admitted drug use was higher in poorer people. thats all you need
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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    Wow. Too bad that judge didnt see that context-less bar graph. This changes everything! Lulz

    Edit: I'm assuming you're seriously not using that as evidence and just joking right?
    Worker Substance Use and Workplace Policies and Programs, SAMHSA, Office of Applied Studies

    I was wiating for you to say it wasnt acceptable before i posted the link.

    you should now admit you were wrong that "no such evidence exists"
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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    Well the judge seems to disagree with you.




    I don't think any reasonable, rational person could compare rape to personal recreational drug use. But not everyone is reasonable or rational.

    I love how liberal democrats love to say "ITS THE LAW ITS THE LAW ITS THE LAW".............. anytime anything goes their way..................










    then when it comes to the constitution................................. King Obama knows better than the law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vteckidd View Post
    DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

    not peer reviewed doe

    What context do you need? its a study that shows that between the years of 2002-2004 the people they surveyed by income level, admitted drug use was higher in poorer people. thats all you need
    Thank you for being honest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vteckidd View Post
    Worker Substance Use and Workplace Policies and Programs, SAMHSA, Office of Applied Studies

    I was wiating for you to say it wasnt acceptable before i posted the link.

    you should now admit you were wrong that "no such evidence exists"
    I'm glad you posted this.

    So I could be 100% sure when I said that the evidence still doesn't exist.

    Why you post charts and studies you don't read is beyond me. LULZ

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    When i turn on the TV and see a college kid whos balancing playing sports with getting his degree and on his way to landing potentially a million dollar career and see them get suspended or busted for using recreational drugs.... it annoys me. If you can balance school, work and are taking care of yourself, i could give two fucks less about you using recreational drugs, but when you're a freeloader, living off the system and your drug use is preventing you from being independent and taking care of yourself, your free ride needs to be removed from you.


    If i was in charge of the government............

    I'd abolish the IRS and DHS tomorrow.......... then i'd use those resources towards a new investigation system. Employers would have a database of welfare recipients to contact and offer employment. If you denied employment, the employer would report it to the system, and you would receive a strike for declining employment. Once you received 3 strikes, you would be removed from the welfare system for 1 year. If your employment was terminated or declined because of a failed drug test or any other criminal activity such as stealing, fighting ect... you receive 3 strikes and are removed from the welfare system for a year. After 3 1 year bans from the welfare system, you are banned from collecting welfare for life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    I'm glad you posted this.

    So I could be 100% sure when I said that the evidence still doesn't exist.

    Why you post charts and studies you don't read is beyond me. LULZ
    how does that chart not show you are wrong?

    The prevalence of past month illicit drug use was lower among workers with higher family incomes than among workers with lower family incomes. An estimated 13.2 percent of workers who reported family income that was less than $20,000 had used illicit drugs during the past month. In contrast, 6.0 percent of workers who reported income in the highest category––$75,000 or more––had used illicit drugs during the past month.


    I didnt read the whole thing because it took me .000001 seconds to google. im sure there is some info in there that supports your view, but it took me no time to find data that suggests my point is also correct.

    You insinuate tht the judge is correct and and we are all wrong, that NO SUCH EVIDENCE EXISTS that low income poor people do MORE drugs than higher income.

    That is FALSE.

    I just showed 1 study out of 1000s that suggest the opposite.

    Again, im against drug testing welfare people, but not because i turn a blind eye and say they dont do it, but because I dont think that is the problem.

    Where is your studies with peer review? Post links please. What did this judge base his opinion on?
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    magical negro/photog .blank cd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vteckidd View Post
    how does that chart not show you are wrong?

    I didnt read the whole thing because
    That's why.

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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    That's why.
    LOL

    so in the face of pure facts, based upon a study that had to be peer reviewed, now youre saying its insufficient because I didnt read the whole thing? LOL I didnt have to, i only needed to read this part.

    The prevalence of past month illicit drug use was lower among workers with higher family incomes than among workers with lower family incomes. An estimated 13.2 percent of workers who reported family income that was less than $20,000 had used illicit drugs during the past month. In contrast, 6.0 percent of workers who reported income in the highest category––$75,000 or more––had used illicit drugs during the past month.
    to refute this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Blank.CD
    there is evidence that shows poor people are more prone to use drugs than non-poor people?

    Could you show this peer reviewed evidence?
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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    That's why.
    Yeah, ive got to side with you on this one. Vteckidd's evidence wasnt nearly as concrete as your telephone survey asking inner city african americans if they used drugs or not and who they thought was the main problem, in which they replied "white people".

    Telephone surveys asking people if theyre on drugs is profound scientific evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vteckidd View Post
    LOL

    so in the face of pure facts, based upon a study that had to be peer reviewed, now youre saying its insufficient because I didnt read the whole thing?
    You're very right. It is pure fact. I won't dispute that. And maybe if we were talking about workplace drug use programs and their effectiveness, which the study suggests, then you might be onto something. But since you only feel you should read the part that you believe is relevant, you fail. Again. And if you keep only reading the part that you believe is relevant, then I suspect that will be a continuing trend.

    Good try though.

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