Government shutdown.

[David88vert]

...he got it passed every way it could be passed with bipartisan support.

H.R.3590 - Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Senate Voting - Roll Call #396
Aye - 60 (All 58 Democrats plus 2 Independents)
Nay - 39 (39 of 40 Republicans)
Abstain - 1 (Republican)

House Voting - Roll Call #165
Aye - 219 (all Democrats)
Nay - 212 (34 Democrats and 178 Republicans)
Abstain - 0

Bill Sponsors - All were Democrats except 1 - Rep. Walter B. Jones [R, NC-3], who voted against Obamacare and has since been vocal against it.

Please explain what you mean when you state that the bill was passed with "bipartisan support"?

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2013

I'm very curious as to the motivation and what's being implied by this picture.

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H.R.3590 - Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Senate Voting - Roll Call #396
Aye - 60 (All 58 Democrats plus 2 Independents)
Nay - 39 (39 of 40 Republicans)
Abstain - 1 (Republican)

House Voting - Roll Call #165
Aye - 219 (all Democrats)
Nay - 212 (34 Democrats and 178 Republicans)
Abstain - 0

Bill Sponsors - All were Democrats except 1 - Rep. Walter B. Jones [R, NC-3], who voted against Obamacare and has since been vocal against it.

Please explain what you mean when you state that the bill was passed with "bipartisan support"?

I could clarify, but not only would we be going off the subject, but I'm not interested in playing that game that frequently gets played here where we pick one off-topic ambiguous point and run with it

[Vteckidd]

Eyeballs is your source?

Theres no good reason , as i demostrated, to shut down a govt park that is normally, unguarded.

Pretty specific. Surely there's a source out there other than just your gut feelings. Lol

Yes, the National Parks director testified he was told by the WH to cause as much pain as possible. or is that not good enough?

[Vteckidd]

An unmanned public memorial costs $0 to guard and secure 365 days a year.

Govt shuts down, so they spend money and man hours to barricade and close off a public monument/memorial

YES, eyeballs can tell you this was all political. YOu dont need MSNBC to tell you what to think, you can make decisions on your own.

The GOP didnt tell the national parks agencies to barricade their parks. The ONLY people with that power is the WH, which, was testified that was true

[David88vert]

I could clarify, but not only would we be going off the subject, but I'm not interested in playing that game that frequently gets played here where we pick one off-topic ambiguous point and run with it

In other words, the facts do not support your claim, and you don't know how to spin your way out of it.

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An unmanned public memorial costs $0 to guard and secure 365 days a year.

Govt shuts down, so they spend money and man hours to barricade and close off a public monument/memorial

YES, eyeballs can tell you this was all political. YOu dont need MSNBC to tell you what to think, you can make decisions on your own.

The GOP didnt tell the national parks agencies to barricade their parks. The ONLY people with that power is the WH, which, was testified that was true

According to the national park services director, 200,000 park employees were furloughed, including 300 who work at memorials. So it's not "unmanned" in any sense. Do these 200k employees work for free?

In any case, we will find out more on this minor inconvenience after it's scheduled hearing soon. I couldn't think of anything better the government could be doing at this time than finding out why I couldn't get into a WW2 memorial last week.

Amid anger over closures, Park Service stays resolute - The Washington Post

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I have to applaud the GOP for always wanting to get down to the real issues. Like why I couldn't drive past Mt. Rushmore. Let's have a hearing about it.

[Vteckidd]

In any case, we will find out more on this minor inconvenience after it's scheduled hearing soon. I couldn't think of anything better the government could be doing at this time than finding out why I couldn't get into a WW2 memorial last week.

Amid anger over closures, Park Service stays resolute - The Washington Post

i dont expect you to understand the concept of misappropriation of funding. Its at the core of what caused the shutdown. Since democrats dont understand budgets, there is no such thing as wasting money.

Again, ive been to the WW2 memorial, several times. I have family in DC. It is unmanned, there is DC mall security around of course, but you cannot argue it cost more money to barricade it, than to not barricade it.

The reasoning behind barricading was retarded. It was no more safe barricaded than it was unbarricaded.

this would be like sealing off arenas during a lockout, BECAUSE SAFETY. Well if we are safer with barricades, why take them down?

your blind ideology is laughable

[Vteckidd]

I have to applaud the GOP for always wanting to get down to the real issues. Like why I couldn't drive past Mt. Rushmore. Let's have a hearing about it.

I would like someone to answer why they chose complete ass backward policies to secure a public park/monument that had no credible reason to be shutdown/.

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i dont expect you to understand the concept of misappropriation of funding. Its at the core of what caused the shutdown. Since democrats dont understand budgets, there is no such thing as wasting money.

Again, ive been to the WW2 memorial, several times. I have family in DC. It is unmanned, there is DC mall security around of course, but you cannot argue it cost more money to barricade it, than to not barricade it.

The reasoning behind barricading was retarded. It was no more safe barricaded than it was unbarricaded.

this would be like sealing off arenas during a lockout, BECAUSE SAFETY. Well if we are safer with barricades, why take them down?

your blind ideology is laughable

What do you mean blind ideology? Lol. You're telling me these parks are unmanned because you went there one time, the National Park Service Director says 200 THOUSAND people work within the park system. That's the stark opposite of what you said. Lol. All I have admitted is that I don't know why they barricaded parks, and I don't care why, and that the guy in charge of it said this is why. So what am I supposed to believe? Your gut feeling and your "eyeballs"? Or the guy that's in charge of the entire national park system? I'm all ears. Because the way you tell it, it's your eyeballs I should believe and anyone who disagrees is blind.

Your two-party paradigm is laughable.

[Sinfix_15]

I have to applaud the GOP for always wanting to get down to the real issues. Like why I couldn't drive past Mt. Rushmore. Let's have a hearing about it.

Lets all applaud Obama for getting down to the real issues, like making sure nobody drives past Mt Rushmore.

[Sinfix_15]

What do you mean blind ideology? Lol. You're telling me these parks are unmanned because you went there one time, the National Park Service Director says 200 THOUSAND people work within the park system. That's the stark opposite of what you said. Lol. All I have admitted is that I don't know why they barricaded parks, and I don't care why, and that the guy in charge of it said this is why. So what am I supposed to believe? Your gut feeling and your "eyeballs"? Or the guy that's in charge of the entire national park system? I'm all ears. Because the way you tell it, it's your eyeballs I should believe and anyone who disagrees is blind.

Your two-party paradigm is laughable.

Cutting grass and raking leaves.......

There are no riot police guarding monuments from vandals.

I suppose if Obama had not of done this, vandals would have ran rampant defacing monuments and then Obama could have blamed that on the shutdown..... but that wouldnt have happened would it?

[Sinfix_15]

Blank, care to give your justification for people being evicted from their homes during the shutdown?

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Cutting grass and raking leaves......

Surely among 200k employees there's someone in some kind of administrative capacity. It's very hard to believe they employ 200k leaf rakers.

There are no riot police guarding monuments from vandals.

I suppose if Obama had not of done this, vandals would have ran rampant defacing monuments and then Obama could have blamed that on the shutdown..... but that wouldnt have happened would it?

Or the vandalism could have happened and the media could have said "Why didn't Obama do anything to stop it"

[Sinfix_15]

Surely among 200k employees there's someone in some kind of administrative capacity. It's very hard to believe they employ 200k leaf rakers.

The government always finds a need for whatever money it gets.


Keep in mind we're talking about a government that spent $750k to build a soccer field in Guantanamo Bay..... wasting money is of no concern to them. Tax and spend, tax and spend, tax and spend....

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Blank, care to give your justification for people being evicted from their homes during the shutdown?

You mean the couple who live on federally owned property who said they've been evicted from their home during other shutdowns before, who also said they weren't really inconvenienced at all? Or do you mean the couple that own a vacation property on Lake Meade whose lease contract states that you have to have an alternate residence?

Nope.

[Sinfix_15]

Our government spends 25 billion dollars a year maintaining vacant properties.......

they pay a lot of people to "push mowers"

[Vteckidd]

What do you mean blind ideology? Lol. You're telling me these parks are unmanned because you went there one time, the National Park Service Director says 200 THOUSAND people work within the park system. That's the stark opposite of what you said. Lol. All I have admitted is that I don't know why they barricaded parks, and I don't care why, and that the guy in charge of it said this is why. So what am I supposed to believe? Your gut feeling and your "eyeballs"? Or the guy that's in charge of the entire national park system? I'm all ears. Because the way you tell it, it's your eyeballs I should believe and anyone who disagrees is blind.

Your two-party paradigm is laughable.

sheep following sheep

Its kind of sad. The lengths youll go to defend the party are funny.

Ill close with this, usually, when funds are scarce, you dont deploy MORE resources , you deploy LESS. The WW2 Memorial spent more money barricading than it did, NOT barricading. Thats just fact. If you are going to argue that they had to barricade because security was furloughed, then why didnt THEY state that? They didnt. They said they were told to make it as difficult as possible for tourists, and the National Parks director said this was his reasoning (WITH THE WH BLESSING) in a post 9-11 world to keep the parks safe.

WHAT?

theres NO way you can make an argument for what they did. IT was purely political. Anyone that doesnt see that is just sticking their head in the sand

[Sinfix_15]

You mean the couple who live on federally owned property who said they've been evicted from their home during other shutdowns before, who also said they weren't really inconvenienced at all? Or do you mean the couple that own a vacation property on Lake Meade whose lease contract states that you have to have an alternate residence?

Nope.

Nothing inconvenient about being kicked out of your home for absolutely no reason at all.

[Sinfix_15]

sheep following sheep

Its kind of sad. The lengths youll go to defend the party are funny.

Ill close with this, usually, when funds are scarce, you dont deploy MORE resources , you deploy LESS. The WW2 Memorial spent more money barricading than it did, NOT barricading. Thats just fact. If you are going to argue that they had to barricade because security was furloughed, then why didnt THEY state that? They didnt. They said they were told to make it as difficult as possible for tourists, and the National Parks director said this was his reasoning (WITH THE WH BLESSING) in a post 9-11 world to keep the parks safe.

WHAT?

theres NO way you can make an argument for what they did. IT was purely political. Anyone that doesnt see that is just sticking their head in the sand

For blank to stick his head in the sand, he would first have to pull it out of Obama's ass.

You're right though, the levels he is going to to continue supporting this is mind boggling.

[Sinfix_15]

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sheep following sheep

Its kind of sad. The lengths youll go to defend the party are funny.

Ill close with this, usually, when funds are scarce, you dont deploy MORE resources , you deploy LESS. The WW2 Memorial spent more money barricading than it did, NOT barricading. Thats just fact. If you are going to argue that they had to barricade because security was furloughed, then why didnt THEY state that? They didnt. They said they were told to make it as difficult as possible for tourists, and the National Parks director said this was his reasoning (WITH THE WH BLESSING) in a post 9-11 world to keep the parks safe.

WHAT?

theres NO way you can make an argument for what they did. IT was purely political. Anyone that doesnt see that is just sticking their head in the sand

Not really defending anything at all. All I said was the park director listed reasons why parks were closed. And you're telling me I'm blind and "defending my party" for listing those reasons. Also, you claimed its more expensive to barricade the park than to leave it open, without listing any dollar figures at all. Then you said anyone who disagrees with your guy feeling is a blind democrat shill sticking their head in the sand. Your signature says you are a data resources project manager, you should be highly skilled at providing just that single piece of data. 200k employees were laid off, so there MUST BE something somewhere that says the amount of security they hired is equal to--or greater than--the salary of the 200k employees furloughed for that stretch of time.

So all you have to do is find the data for that one claim and it will be a fact. And I'll believe you.

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This is like the mantra of the lot of this subsection.

"This is my gut feeling, if you disagree you're a blind sheep"

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Double post

[Sinfix_15]

This is like the mantra of the lot of this subsection.

"This is my gut feeling, if you disagree you're a blind sheep"

You've been fact checked on two lies in this thread so far. You're not seeking the truth, you're seeking justification to continue believing what you've made up your mind to believe.

You fall in line with liberal rhetoric on every single discussion that takes place here. You often bend rationality or go against your own previously stated values to do so. This is why you're called a sheep, because you are.

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This is the problem with the politics you follow. Heritage, in an effort to be as clear as possible, could have stated that the Golf Course most likely operates on user based funds. But instead they chose to paint a divisive picture, that the two are connected in some way.

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You've been fact checked on two lies in this thread so far. You're not seeking the truth, you're seeking justification to continue believing what you've made up your mind to believe.

I really haven't been fact checked at all, and in fact, I've been the one doing the fact checking.

[Sinfix_15]

This is the problem with the politics you follow. Heritage, in an effort to be as clear as possible, could have stated that the Golf Course most likely operates on user based funds. But instead they chose to paint a divisive picture, that the two are connected in some way.

LOL............................................... ..................................................

I shouldnt be so hard on Obama, he deserves to kick back and rest every now and then...

[Sinfix_15]

I really haven't been fact checked at all, and in fact, I've been the one doing the fact checking.

Really? lets talk more about this bipartisan support of Obamacare and that bathroom in california that the veterans in washington vandalized.

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Really? lets talk more about this bipartisan support of Obamacare and that bathroom in california that the veterans in washington vandalized.

The partisanship of the ACA was not the point of that post, and nowhere did I mention that veterans vandalized a bathroom in California. Not even close. Good try though

[Browning151]

Never have I seen someone get so thoroughly schooled over and over again and still remain so resolute in their defense of an indefensible position. It's just funny really.

[Sinfix_15]

The partisanship of the ACA was not the point of that post, and nowhere did I mention that veterans vandalized a bathroom in California. Not even close. Good try though

LOL.......... can i get you a drink? Dont want you to exhaust yourself from all that back peddling.


When you said the parks were vandalized, stated as if what you were saying was an actual fact, you posted a picture of a bathroom in california. Since you have a confirmation bias, you went to google and searched for any picture that would support your narrative, i'm sure it was a honest mistake..... you made during telling your lie.

Even though i posted a dozen pictures of liberal protests that looked like 3rd world war zones, where literally 10s of tons of garbage had to be removed.... you still stayed the course on ignoring reality and spouting left wing rhetoric in defense of this president.

[Sinfix_15]

Never have I seen someone get so thoroughly schooled over and over again and still remain so resolute in their defense of an indefensible position. It's just funny really.

I'm honestly at a loss for words sometimes when dealing with this guy......... Blank's denial is mind boggling.

[Vteckidd]

Not really defending anything at all. All I said was the park director listed reasons why parks were closed. And you're telling me I'm blind and "defending my party" for listing those reasons. Also, you claimed its more expensive to barricade the park than to leave it open, without listing any dollar figures at all. Then you said anyone who disagrees with your guy feeling is a blind democrat shill sticking their head in the sand. Your signature says you are a data resources project manager, you should be highly skilled at providing just that single piece of data. 200k employees were laid off, so there MUST BE something somewhere that says the amount of security they hired is equal to--or greater than--the salary of the 200k employees furloughed for that stretch of time.

So all you have to do is find the data for that one claim and it will be a fact. And I'll believe you.

5 Years of working for GOVT contracting, 30+ year military BRAT, running several businesses, and knowing personally people who are laid off who work for the IRS.

I also know simple business practices. IT costs more money to send people to barricade a monument, than it does to leave it open.

Youre arguing that is costs more in gas to leave your car parked in a garage and not running than it does to drive it around 15 hours a day. Its really funny.

I suspect you will get some answers wednesday during the hearing. But you wont like them and will dismiss them.

Then theres the fact that the national parks director had no answers for why it was being done despite not being done in previous shutdowns. Then theres the fact that they agreed to back pay furloughed workers yet wouldnt let the parks be open?

Like i said i understand the lincoln memorial, its a building. Or the IRS HQ, lock the doors.

THESE ARE OPEN AIR open to the public monuments unguarded. you cant argue it didnt cost them money and resources to shut them. The ONLY reason to deduce is they did it intentionally for a motive. The most likely being to show the public what happens when the govt is "shutdown". Previous shutdowns showed this wasnt needed.

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Never have I seen someone get so thoroughly schooled over and over again and still remain so resolute in their defense of an indefensible position. It's just funny really.

Yeah. I'm not sure why Sinfix keeps coming back in here.

LOL.......... can i get you a drink? Dont want you to exhaust yourself from all that back peddling.


When you said the parks were vandalized, stated as if what you were saying was an actual fact, you posted a picture of a bathroom in california. Since you have a confirmation bias, you went to google and searched for any picture that would support your narrative, i'm sure it was a honest mistake..... you made during telling your lie.

I said parks were vandalized. That was a fact. Not narrative.

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5 Years of working for GOVT contracting, 30+ year military BRAT, running several businesses, and knowing personally people who are laid off who work for the IRS.

I also know simple business practices. IT costs more money to send people to barricade a monument, than it does to leave it open.

Youre arguing that is costs more in gas to leave your car parked in a garage and not running than it does to drive it around 15 hours a day. Its really funny.

I suspect you will get some answers wednesday during the hearing. But you wont like them and will dismiss them.

Ok. If you know simple business practices, then why can't you just show the cost of leaving the park open vs. closing it and hiring security. If it costs more, then you're right. I don't go on gut feelings and blindly follow what people say. Show me the numbers. It's that simple. You shouldn't need anecdotal evidence and appeal to authority to try and prove your claim. There should be an actual number somewhere.

[Vteckidd]

Let me be clear that i dont agree with the GOP either. They hsould have left the govt shutdown for months, years if possible. If they truly cared about spending, they should have left it shutdown until the Democrats (AND GOP) decided to cut budgets and live within our means.

But neither side is serious about doing that.

So im not some partisan person choosing a side to fit my thinking. Im just making reasonable and accurate deductions based upon facts.

[Vteckidd]

Ok. If you know simple business practices, then why can't you just show the cost of leaving the park open vs. closing it and hiring security. If it costs more, then you're right. I don't go on gut feelings and blindly follow what people say. Show me the numbers. It's that simple.

“There were the same number of park police along the National Mall when it was open last week as there are now when it is closed,” Hastings wrote. “In fact, on Tuesday, when barricades were first erected and areas closed down, there were even more police than on a typical day when it is open. It is further proof that these closures have nothing to do with the shutdown are simply about the Obama administration playing politics.”

Hastings added that some open-air sites can be unstaffed for up to 10 hours a day.

“Congressman Hastings is incorrect in that regard,” director Jarvis fired back on C-SPAN this morning. “We run a 24-hour-a-day, seven-day-a-week, 365-day-a-year operation on the National Mall. Under normal circumstances, I would have 300 employees working on the National Mall and I currently have seven.”

That there are the same number of U.S. Park Police on the National Mall now as before the shutdown began is true, according to the U.S. Park Police officers’ union. At any given time, there are two police officers on duty at each of the big three tourist sites on the National Mall: the Lincoln Memorial, the Jefferson Memorial and the Washington Monument. They are joined by a smattering of roaming officers among the less-popular sites and smaller parks.

While those officers have been deemed essential for security reasons by the park police and remained on duty through the shutdown, their numbers saw a temporary boost Tuesday as the barricades were erected, according to the union.

Youll get MORE answers wed im sure, but like i said, it wont be what you want.

But, it doesnt take documents to tell you there were more police there during the shutdown, than there was before the shutdown. It doesnt take a genius to comprehend that it costs money to barricade a park, when its normally not barricaded. I can count, and I have been to the memorial several times. there were more people there enforcing the closure than there was when its not being manned. How can you even dispute this? Are you this dense?

Just admit it, they went through great lengths to close a site they didnt need to. They even admit the security was deemed essential and was not furloughed.

Do you think its cheaper to fence your house or leave it unfenced?

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Let me be clear that i dont agree with the GOP either. They hsould have left the govt shutdown for months, years if possible. If they truly cared about spending, they should have left it shutdown until the Democrats (AND GOP) decided to cut budgets and live within our means.

But neither side is serious about doing that.

So im not some partisan person choosing a side to fit my thinking. Im just making reasonable and accurate deductions based upon facts.

I don't care who's side you're on. Lol

You claimed that it's more expensive to furlough 200k employees, close parks and hire security than it is to leave the parks open and people employed.

So show me the number that says that. That's all I want. The actual dollar figure. Shouldn't be difficult.