What decades of Democrats being in control will get you...
Democrats are a symptom, govt employee unions are the disease.
Wonder how this compares to what a decade of republicans being in control does...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financi..._2007–08
your link says unsupported characters.
Democrats are happy and content to watch the world burn..... as long as it's a democrat holding the matches.Originally Posted by Echonova
Don't you think Detroit's financial problems are more caused by the failure of the auto industry there rather than having democratic leaders.
no.
Didn't they get bailed out?
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
Detroit put all of their eggs in the auto manufacturing basket and its now their death sentence. With auto manufacturing employment dwindling and therefore tax revenue, the govt employee unions and the extravagant contracts they negotiated with elected officials they put in office are making it impossible for Detroit to get on a positive fiscal standing.
Like I said, democrats are a symptom, the govt employee unions are the disease. Just look at Cali, Illinois, Jersey and New York for further examples.
You are seriously using Wikipedia as a source????
And you wonder why no one takes you seriously...
No, Everything is democrats fault. Even when it's not their fault, its their fault. Stop injecting logic into this narrative, or I won't have anywhere to direct my misplaced frustration
So Wikipedia is wrong and there was no financial system crash in 2007?
I should let my parents know the collapsing economy was not the reason their 401ks evaporated.
Before Obama got elected, everything was blamed on Bush. Obama has been in office for several years, but nothing is ever his fault. So, care to explain why the double standard?
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
I blamed Bush when I was younger until I learned what went on and what presidents responsibilities were. So no double standard here.
LOL, you're not really good at this are you?
Fuck it, I'm out for the night.
Perhaps blank will have a better excuse in the morning. Doubt it, but it could happen.
Sale Detroit to China no one will miss them
Really?
You really know your stuff bro. The drying up auto industry, Detroit's bread and butter, had absolutely nothing to do with it not being able to meet its financial obligations. And that's contrary to what every single financial analyst has said about the situation, so you must know something they don't. Might wanna consider a career change.Really?
Their 401k only evaporated if they locked in the losses and sold their stocks while it was low. If they wisely invested them into a diversity of solid funds and stocks, then they should be higher now than before the stock market dip. The DOW is over 15.5 today, which is well above what it was at before the dip.
Ideally, what you should do (and what I did), is ramp up your stock purchasing when the market is low. I personally used the dip to increase my buying power, and purchased as much as I could during the dip. I made a decent amount off the dip, and it helped me get into my current home.
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
Municipal failures are complex - they aren't just leadership issues, and they aren't just economy issues. They are a complex mix of many decisions, but one thing is clear - they budget outpaced the available revenue. If you look at Detroit, many of the homes are empty, and many left due to lack of work.
As for employers:
"Although Detroit is known worldwide as the automotive capitol of the United States, in reality, Detroit automakers rank way down on the list of city employers. The most jobs are provided by the Detroit Medical Center, with the city, state and Wayne State University all in the top 10 employers, according to Crain’s Detroit Business. Billionaire Dan Gilbert’s Quicken Loans and Rock Financial are among the city’s biggest employers. Chrysler, which has a major plant in the city, ranks 10th and General Motors 11th, although Detroit is home to GM headquarters." - Forbes
It's a stretch to try to say that the collapse of Detroit is due to the auto industry.
Last edited by David88vert; 07-19-2013 at 10:42 AM.
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
Its not a stretch at all actually.
Know what those numbers were in the 50's?
It is a stretch. The 50's were 60 years ago.
If you really want to try to stretch back to then, let's look at the facts.
By 1950, Detroit had become the fifth largest city in the United States, home to nearly two million people - now only 886,000. But in the midst of that 50's prosperity, the auto industry restructured its operations. Between 1948 and 1967—when the auto industry was at its economic peak—Detroit lost more than 130,000 manufacturing jobs.
The Dodge Main plant employed more than 30,000 workers at its peak, and closed in 1980. Ford’s River Rouge plant started cutting jobs back in the 1950s, and now only has a few thousand workers.
Chrysler filed for bankruptcy in 1979, while Ford and General Motors were in massive deficits.
So, considering that most of the power of the automobile industry in Detroit was gone by 1980, how to you think that the auto industry is behind the collapse of Detroit? Why is it the fault of the automakers over 30 years later? Especially since there are other larger employers there now like Quicken?
City leaders haven't attracted enough businesses over the years to grow jobs, they lost all of their diversity (whites make up 10% of the population), and they have a massive drop in population (and tax revenue), without cutting the costs of services - how is any of that the fault of the auto industry?
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
Democrats shouldered 50% of that blame as well. Sorry. The pushed the HOMES FOR EVERYONE that created the market for the GOP to monetize it.
Detroit is bankrupt because of unions, jimmy already said it.
Unions make companies uncompetitive.
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
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Actually GM is doing well in China, FOrd doesnt need any money.
The auto industry isnt the total issue, but its a decent sized cause. AMerican AUto Companies want to cry and whine for taxpayer money so they can continue to perpetuate their lifestyle , and never be forced to make their company compeititve and modernize it.
They are just as bad as your evil "wallstreet bankers"
We should have let them fail when we had the chance
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
It's a snowball effect. With the industrial decline that's been happening in MI, other businesses slow as a result. Automotive suppliers left, local businesses dried up, white and middle-class flight, and then the crash of 07 is the cherry on top. So not only is it not a stretch, the decline of the auto industry is in fact the root of the problem. Suggesting that "democrats" are responsible because they were the ones at the helm is disingenuous at best. For a city that was built on and relied so heavily on industry, this was a disaster waiting to happen, and would have happened regardless of who was in the hot seat.
Detroit was well on its way before the '07 collapse, though it did speed up the process by a few years. Govt employee unions worked very hard to make sure democrats continued to be elected to state and city posts. When contract negotiation time came, the unions walked in with a list of demands and an ultimatum, approve everything we want or we walk, if we walk, you lose your job next election.
This is the exact same situation that is happening in California, Illinois (which is close to bankruptcy also), and New York. When govt employee unions became the most important voting block in the state, they took full advantage of it and have run them into the ground.
The auto industry was already weak back in 1980, yet you still think that is the source of Detroit's financial failure. It's laughable. The "white flight" was mostly done by 1967, hardly a factor, as black families poured in to fill the jobs that they left, so why did the local businesses dry up? The Top 10 employers in Detroit are not auto industry related - that is fact. Most of the Top 10 were created after the auto industry had already reduced its size, so they actually are creating new jobs in Detroit.
BTW - Up until 1962, most of Detroit's mayors were Republican. After 1962, all of them have been Democrats - every single one.
List of mayors of Detroit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
You can deny reality as much as you need to. Doesn't change the principles of economics at all. You build a city on an industry and it dries up. No city could sustain the losses it incurred.
Thank you though for also pointing out the "democratic" effort to stave their losses by offering tax incentives and such to bring back business. Ultimately it wasnt enough. The failing auto industry is the root problem.
So lets blame it on the auto industry basicly drying up in the 80's and ignore the fact that detroits political leadership hasnt been successful in replacing those jobs. Lets also remember that those same political leaders have allowed the educational base of the city to degrade to the point that most of derroits citizens are not educated well enough to fill any but the most basic of tasks.
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Drying up since the late 60's, all the way up to today. It's not like it just stopped in the 80's.
All a consequence of deindustrialization.
Isnt it the responsibility of the city to find a new industry and bring jobs in ? I mean can every city just say "well fuck, there goes those jobs, i guess we are doomed"
How very unamerican dont you think?
Also, by admitting the industry is failing, and they couldnt fix it, then you are admitting the bailout was pointless and throwing bad money after bad. you cant have it both ways
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
no, its shitty leadership, bad politics, and people being inept. Stop giving a pass to the people in power. Stop making excuses.
I dont know if you know this or not, but people are elected to run a city, and to make it thrive and be economically viable. Detroit and other cities are failing at it. Auto Industry sucks? Ok, so what, FIND SOMETHING ELSE.
Dont tell me cities only operate 1 way
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
Sure. But with what do you replace motor city with? Their whole infrastructure was built around cars. Parts suppliers, dealers, etc. After the war, if you had a car, good chance it came from Detroit. Germany was rebuilding, Japan was leveled, we were the only ones left.
The auto bailout wasn't pointless. It just didnt work as planned. Sure it kept some people from losing jobs here, but CEOs had other plans with that money. They're only thinking about how they can pay back that loan as quickly as possible. And that's great business sense. So, build plants where we can get the most production per dollar. It saved them from folding. But if my business or your business goes belly up, who helps us?Also, by admitting the industry is failing, and they couldnt fix it, then you are admitting the bailout was pointless and throwing bad money after bad. you cant have it both ways
And they did. There was a concerted democratic effort to bring back business with tax incentives and such. A few businesses and employees came through, but it wasn't enough to replace what they lost.
Blaming it on shitty leadership is shortsighted.
Oh excuse me. They have had 50 years to prepare, not just 30.
Quality of education has nothing to do with industry. It has everything to do with educators.
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Have you ever been to Detroit? Do you remember the news broadcasts about Detroit back in the 1980s? Reality is that no businesses wanted to move there as the city's crime rate went through the roof, and the police were powerless to make the streets safe.
The Democrats have been in firm control of Detroit for over 50 years - as you stated it - putting forth their effort. If something repeatedly fails for over 50 years, why would you still continue to support the same failed policies and the same platform?
The debt that Detroit has? "According to the Detroit Free Press, the city holds $18.5 billion in debt and other liabilities. The motor city is also $9.2 billion dollars short in unfunded pension and retiree health care benefits, leaving city workers collecting pennies on the dollar for their plans".
Reuters reports that 47 percent of the city's taxable properties were delinquent in 2011 and the unemployment rate is now 16 percent, which is triple what it was in 2000.
The bankruptcy filing states these causes - not the automobile industry:
The unemployment rate has nearly tripled since 2000 and, at 16 percent for the metropolitan area in April, is more than twice the national average.
The homicide rate is at a 40-year high, earning Detroit a reputation as one of the nation's most dangerous cities for more than 20 years.
The average wait time for a response to a police call is 58 minutes, compared to the national average of 11 minutes.
Just 8.7 percent of cases are solved, compared to 30.5 percent nationwide.
Detroit's police cars, fire trucks and ambulances are very old.
Two out of every five street lights are broken.
78,000 structures in the city are abandoned.
For all those reasons, Snyder wrote, the city can't afford to pay more than $18 billion in obligations. Taxes are at their legal limits and raising them would do little good, Snyder wrote. The population is 28 percent smaller today than it was in 2000. Residents wouldn't be able to afford a further tax hike and it would drive even more away.
In contrast, Pittsburgh and Buffalo were also built upon industry and manufacturing, yet as bad as it got for them, neither has filed bankruptcy.
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
If your entire metro area is built around manufacturing cars. Then your CEOs move all those jobs, be it due to technology advancements, cheaper labor elsewhere, people leave to where there are jobs, when people leave, the grocery stores close, restaurants, movie theaters, etc etc. When these places close, more people leave, housing prices fall, more people leave, crime goes up, more people leave. Now you have a dwindling population, so now you have less tax revenue. Your tax bills go up because you have to keep police there because of the surge in crime, and you want to offer incentives to businesses and people to return, but no one wants to return to an area of urban decay. This isn't some particular party problem.
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