Busy week for the SCOTUS.

[BanginJimmy]

Some huge rulings this week so I figured I would confine all of them to a single thread.

DOMA, I couldnt possibly care less.

Affirmative Action, the court didnt have the balls to actually rule. The kicked the can for a couple more years.

Voter Rights Act, Glad to see Section 4 struck down. How states conduct elections or draw their congressional districts is not, and should not, be subject to federal approval. On top of that, the formula they have used hasnt been reviewed since the 70's.


This brings me to voter ID laws. Blank, what steps do blacks and other minorities have to take to get a state issued ID that whites dont have to?

[bu villain]

I don't think the issue most people have is that it is more difficult for minorities to get an ID, it's that the end result will be less participation by all races in elections particularly from minorities. The more restrictions you put on voting, the less people will vote. The right to vote for each and every person is at the heart of our way of governance. It is not something you have to earn by your ability to navigate bureaucracy, it is a fundamental right. Unfortunately some amount of bureaucracy is necessary but it should be kept to an absolute minimum.

[Browning151]

I don't think the issue most people have is that it is more difficult for minorities to get an ID, it's that the end result will be less participation by all races in elections particularly from minorities. The more restrictions you put on voting, the less people will vote.

Why will minorities participate less if they have to show an ID if they ID's are no more difficult for them to get than anyone else, and let's just suppose ID's are issued free of charge to remove the poll tax angle. If the ID is free and it's no more difficult for one to get them than anyone else then reduced participation is voluntary.

And per your statement below, how is obtaining and showing an ID "navigating bureaucracy"? ID's are used for tons of other things and not considered "navigating bureaucracy" why the distinction for voting?

The right to vote for each and every person is at the heart of our way of governance. It is not something you have to earn by your ability to navigate bureaucracy, it is a fundamental right.

Nope. See Bush v. Gore.

[BanginJimmy]

Nope. See Bush v. Gore.

This only applies to Presidential elections. You have a right to vote in all other elections.

Sent from my Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 2

[.blank cd]

Why will minorities participate less if they have to show an ID if they ID's are no more difficult for them to get than anyone else, and let's just suppose ID's are issued free of charge to remove the poll tax angle. If the ID is free and it's no more difficult for one to get them than anyone else then reduced participation is voluntary.

How do you plan on issuing a bunch of federal ID's without running into a federal registry, or as I like to call it, the conservative boogeyman?

[Sinfix_15]

How do you plan on issuing a bunch of federal ID's without running into a federal registry, or as I like to call it, the conservative boogeyman?

Get an ID through any of the other avenues that every other american gets their ID. Waive the fees associated with it. Obama can cancel one vacation, that should be enough to fund the entire ordeal. Crisis averted.

[.blank cd]

Get an ID through any of the other avenues that every other american gets their ID. Waive the fees associated with it. Obama can cancel one vacation, that should be enough to fund the entire ordeal. Crisis averted.

So, get a federal ID by getting a state ID. Got it.

[Sinfix_15]

So, get a federal ID by getting a state ID. Got it.

[Browning151]

How do you plan on issuing a bunch of federal ID's without running into a federal registry, or as I like to call it, the conservative boogeyman?

Are you trolling or being intentionally obtuse? A state issued drivers license or non driver ID is almost universally accepted as proof of identification for pretty much anything that the average person needs to present identification for, why is it so egregious to ask someone to show that when you walk into a polling place? The ID costs absolutely nothing, and is freely and equally available to everyone, is in no way tied to the ballot that you cast, what is the problem with the requirement to show it when voting? And where did anyone mention a federally issued ID in the first place?

[BanginJimmy]

And where did anyone mention a federally issued ID in the first place?

He made it up to go along with his bureaucracy comment.

Basicly, he knows he doesnt have an argument because I took race out of the equation with my question to him. Without the race card there isnt an argument against voter ID laws, and of course that argument cannot be made to someone that will challenge it.

[David88vert]

Drivers licenses are not free and are not given to people who do not pass the driving test. Additionally, they are suspended if you do not maintain insurance.
State ID cards are not free either, as far as I know.

[BanginJimmy]

Drivers licenses are not free and are not given to people who do not pass the driving test. Additionally, they are suspended if you do not maintain insurance.
State ID cards are not free either, as far as I know.

I know a couple of the states pushing voter IDs have said state ID's would be free. Dont know if every state is worded that way though.

[Browning151]

Drivers licenses are not free and are not given to people who do not pass the driving test. Additionally, they are suspended if you do not maintain insurance.
State ID cards are not free either, as far as I know.

I think everyone understands how drivers licenses and the requirements to have one work, I just included them as they are accepted as identification as ID cards are for those who have them. Currently state ID cards are not free, it has been discussed though that they be made free as a condition of any voter ID law so as to remove the financial burden aspect as well as the poll tax aspect of the argument.

[David88vert]

I know a couple of the states pushing voter IDs have said state ID's would be free. Dont know if every state is worded that way though.

I think everyone understands how drivers licenses and the requirements to have one work, I just included them as they are accepted as identification as ID cards are for those who have them. Currently state ID cards are not free, it has been discussed though that they be made free as a condition of any voter ID law so as to remove the financial burden aspect as well as the poll tax aspect of the argument.

In order to work, every state would have to be willing to give free state issued ID cards - and that does not fall under the commerce clause, and as such, should not be able to be federally legislated.

[.blank cd]

Are you trolling or being intentionally obtuse? A state issued drivers license or non driver ID is almost universally accepted as proof of identification for pretty much anything that the average person needs to present identification for, why is it so egregious to ask someone to show that when you walk into a polling place? The ID costs absolutely nothing, and is freely and equally available to everyone, is in no way tied to the ballot that you cast, what is the problem with the requirement to show it when voting? And where did anyone mention a federally issued ID in the first place?

Stop for a second.....clear your head......now lets continue.

For starters. How do you suppose you get ALL states to comply with similar voter ID laws across the board?

[BanginJimmy]

In order to work, every state would have to be willing to give free state issued ID cards - and that does not fall under the commerce clause, and as such, should not be able to be federally legislated.

For starters. How do you suppose you get ALL states to comply with similar voter ID laws across the board?

Who said anything about federal? Voting laws are a state issue. The feds should have no say in the laws of a state as long as they do not violate federal law. Requiring an ID to vote does not violate any portion of the Voter Rights Act so long as getting the ID doesnt present an unusual burden on the voter. Getting a free ID does not fall into that category.

[Vteckidd]

Drivers licenses are not free and are not given to people who do not pass the driving test. Additionally, they are suspended if you do not maintain insurance.
State ID cards are not free either, as far as I know.

Fees and Terms

ID Card is $20, they should deduct it from your welfare check or IRS refund if you dont have one already.

Voting ID should be required period, there is nothing even remotely questionable about it. If you want to vote, show ID , it keeps fraud from happening.

[Vteckidd]

Stop for a second.....clear your head......now lets continue.

For starters. How do you suppose you get ALL states to comply with similar voter ID laws across the board?

Pick one.

You receive FEDERAL refunds, then you deduct $20 for the FEDERAL ID

You receive STATE refunds, then you deduct $20 for the STATE ID

Both are allowed to be used to vote. Its $20, you should have ID to be able to vote, its really not even debatable.

[bu villain]

Why will minorities participate less if they have to show an ID if they ID's are no more difficult for them to get than anyone else, and let's just suppose ID's are issued free of charge to remove the poll tax angle. If the ID is free and it's no more difficult for one to get them than anyone else then reduced participation is voluntary.

Minorities will participate less because I believe they statistically are less likely to already have an ID. Also you must recognize that most of the people who do not have an ID are the extremely poor, elderly, and rural people. They may not have money to spend on an ID, they may not be able to leave their homes due to health, they may not have access to transportation. It is to these people that ID requirements becomes much more of a burdensome than to you or me who are in relatively good health, have easy access to transportation, and probably already have an ID anyway. You addressed the money issue (assuming the states all agree to your free ID idea), but you need to provide solutions for the other issues as well. We shouldn't add more hoops to jump through just because we will make everyone jump through the same hoops. Now if voter fraud becomes a bigger issue then maybe we can justify erecting higher barriers to voting but at this point, I just don't see the good outweighing the bad.

And per your statement below, how is obtaining and showing an ID "navigating bureaucracy"? ID's are used for tons of other things and not considered "navigating bureaucracy" why the distinction for voting?

If you have to fill out paperwork for any part of the government, you are navigating bureaucracy. It doesn't matter if it is for driving a car or opening a liquor store. It is not a pejorative, it's just the definition of bureaucracy.

[BanginJimmy]

Minorities will participate less because I believe they statistically are less likely to already have an ID.

You BELIEVE, you have nothing to justify that belief, but you just throw that out there.

Also you must recognize that most of the people who do not have an ID are the extremely poor, elderly, and rural people. They may not have money to spend on an ID,

This has already been addressed. There are plenty of ways to offer a free state ID.

they may not be able to leave their homes due to health, they may not have access to transportation.

If they cannot leave the house to get an ID, they probably cant get out to vote either. That eventuality has already been covered by use of absentee voting.

We shouldn't add more hoops to jump through just because we will make everyone jump through the same hoops. Now if voter fraud becomes a bigger issue then maybe we can justify erecting higher barriers to voting but at this point, I just don't see the good outweighing the bad.

So you believe in enacting better security AFTER fraud affects an election? Why not be proactive and add extra security before it happens?

[bu villain]

You BELIEVE, you have nothing to justify that belief, but you just throw that out there.

This belief comes from various sources I have read and/or heard in the past. I stated "believe" because I didn't want to pass it off as fact when I am not 100% sure (only 90%). If you do not believe this to be the case, we can do more research to prove who is correct. I "just threw it out there" because it is not really central to my position which is that we should minimize barriers for voting for everyone.

This has already been addressed. There are plenty of ways to offer a free state ID.

Yes and if every state offered a free ID, I would not use the cost of an ID as an argument against it.

If they cannot leave the house to get an ID, they probably cant get out to vote either. That eventuality has already been covered by use of absentee voting.

Actually there have been pretty big efforts to get these kinds of people to the polls. Volunteers often bring elderly or disabled people to the polls. Having to get volunteers to take them to get an ID and also take them to the polls is just another level of burden to being able to vote for those people. The fact that it is already somewhat difficult for them to vote is not a good reason to add another impediment. Also, what does absentee voting have to do with requiring IDs?

So you believe in enacting better security AFTER fraud affects an election? Why not be proactive and add extra security before it happens?

No, I believe in enacting better security when the effects of that security outweigh the burden of it. For example, if we had our current level of fraud (extremely low), but absolutely everyone had an ID (burden also extremely low), we could require ID tomorrow and I would be ok with it. The only concern I may have at that point is I would like some assurances that how an individual votes is treated properly (could not be used for intimidation purposes).