Union pulls support for Obamacare, a sign of things to come?

[Browning151]

First union officially calls for the repeal of ObamaCare.

Our Union and its members have supported President Obama and his Administration for both of his terms in office.

But regrettably, our concerns over certain provisions in the ACA have not been addressed, or in some instances, totally ignored. In the rush to achieve its passage, many of the Act’s provisions were not fully conceived, resulting in unintended consequences that are inconsistent with the promise that those who were satisfied with their employer sponsored coverage could keep it.

These provisions jeopardize our multi-employer health plans, have the potential to cause a loss of work for our members, create an unfair bidding advantage for those contractors who do not provide health coverage to their workers, and in the worst case, may cause our members and their families to lose the benefits they currently enjoy as participants in multi-employer health plans.

For decades, our multi-employer health and welfare plans have provided the necessary medical coverage for our members and their families to protect them in times of illness and medical needs. This collaboration between labor and management has been a model of success that should be emulated rather than ignored. I refuse to remain silent, or idly watch as the ACA destroys those protections.

I am therefore calling for repeal or complete reform of the Affordable Care Act to protect our employers, our industry, and our most important asset: our members and their families.

Boom: First union officially calls for the repeal of ObamaCare « Hot Air

Could there be more to follow? I mean, it doesn't look good when you have unions pulling support and someone like Baucus saying that the implementation is going to be a "train wreck".......

Baucus warns of 'huge train wreck' enacting ObamaCare provisions.

Sen. Max Baucus (D-Mont.) said Wednesday he fears a "train wreck" as the Obama administration implements its signature healthcare law.

Baucus, the chairman of the chamber's powerful Finance Committee and a key architect of the healthcare reform law, said he fears people do not understand how the law will work.


"I just see a huge train wreck coming down," he told Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius at a Wednesday hearing. "You and I have discussed this many times, and I don't see any results yet."

Baucus pressed Sebelius for details about how the Health Department will explain the law and raise awareness of its provisions, which are supposed to take effect in just a matter of months.

"I'm very concerned that not enough is being done so far — very concerned," Baucus said.

Baucus warns of 'huge train wreck' enacting ObamaCare provisions - The Hill's Healthwatch

I think just about anyone with any sense at all could see that this thing was going to be a train wreck from the beginning, back door deals, waivers, cornhusker kickback, Louisiana purchase, "we have to pass it to see what's in it" and on and on and on.....this thing was destined to be a clusterfuck from inception, and people are just now catching on?

[David88vert]

I was pretty vocal about this, but some people wanted to keep claiming that I was the misinformed one.

[eraser4g63]

It'll be great, you'll see! Oh shit, Just kidding!

[.blank cd]

Hmm. Baucus is up for re-election you say....

[Sinfix_15]

Im dont claim to be clairvoyant......

but let me tell you how this whole thing is gonna work out......


by the time it's all said and done....... Obama will have done nothing...... and spent about 20 trillion dollars doing it. We'll all still have our guns..... but half of us will want to shoot ourselves because things are so fucked up.

Black people will still be blaming everything on the oppressive white man...... and even having lived 8 years of a lesson that should have taught them the error of their ways, they will still vote for the democrat even if it's Spike Lee on the ticket.

[.blank cd]

David. Here's a good chance for you to change my opinion

Why should I hate and want to repeal Obamacare?

Please spare the ideological embellishments.

[David88vert]

David. Here's a good chance for you to change my opinion

Why should I hate and want to repeal Obamacare?

Please spare the ideological embellishments.

Nothing anyone could say would get you to change your opinion. That's fine. Your opinion doesn't change the facts.

The first union has discovered these facts on their own. Perhaps you will discover them as well, but I don't suspect that today will be that day.

[Sinfix_15]

David. Here's a good chance for you to change my opinion

Why should I hate and want to repeal Obamacare?

Please spare the ideological embellishments.

Small tidbit from my own personal experience.....

My job cut people to accommodate obamacare, they hire less people because of it, they cut hours because of it, they use more temps because of it. My cost of healthcare doubled. My disabled mother's doctor stopped seeing her because he no longer accepts medicaid because of obamacare, my grandmother's doctor did the same.

[Echonova]

I have a doctors appointment tomorrow for a routine check-up. Everybody chip in $20 to pay for it.

[Sinfix_15]

I have a doctors appointment tomorrow for a routine check-up. Everybody chip in $20 to pay for it.

Be happy you have a doctor that will see you.

[Echonova]

Be happy you have a doctor that will see you.

My doctor sees me because I pay cash. My insurance went to shit the week after Obamacare was signed.

It's pretty much catastrophic insurance at this point. Even though my cost increased.

[Sinfix_15]

My doctor sees me because I pay cash. My insurance went to shit the week after Obamacare was signed.

It's pretty much catastrophic insurance at this point. Even though my cost increased.

If democrats would be honest about their proposals in the beginning, we could avoid having to go through all of this mess.....

Obama could have said "Affordable healthcare act.... its not affordable at all.... actually it more than doubles the cost of your current healthcare.... sure doctors are going to reject it.... but the ER will see you if you're dying.... "

and then let people vote.

[.blank cd]

Nothing anyone could say would get you to change your opinion. That's fine. Your opinion doesn't change the facts.

I don't have an opinion on the issue. That's why I asked. But you're sorta right. The facts won't change.

But god damn, Sinfix stepped up to the plate before you did. Interesting.

Please. Continue.

[Sinfix_15]

I don't have an opinion on the issue. That's why I asked. But you're sorta right. The facts won't change.

But god damn, Sinfix stepped up to the plate before you did. Interesting.

Please. Continue.

You spend a lot of time here for someone who has no opinions.

[Vteckidd]

David. Here's a good chance for you to change my opinion

Why should I hate and want to repeal Obamacare?

Please spare the ideological embellishments.

The problem is you will think anything we say that is not in line with your opinion (which you are entitled to) is "ideological embellishments ".

You should want it repealed because it doesnt do what they claim it will do. It will TAX YOU (specifically) if you dont have insurance, and youll most likely see a reduction in hours or employment, and an increase in costs. Premiums will rise , NOT FALL, your care will be restricted, not free choice, quality of care will decrease.

Ive written books on here about why, and so far, I am right.

Premiums- Rising
Care- Shrinking
Businesses cutting costs due to Mandatory Insurance expense- Happening

Ive always said you will trade employment for your health insurance because you cant MAKE a private company do anything. They always have the option to just close up shop.

[David88vert]

I don't have an opinion on the issue. That's why I asked. But you're sorta right. The facts won't change.

But god damn, Sinfix stepped up to the plate before you did. Interesting.

Please. Continue.

Did you not read the initial post?

"These provisions jeopardize our multi-employer health plans, have the potential to cause a loss of work for our members, create an unfair bidding advantage for those contractors who do not provide health coverage to their workers, and in the worst case, may cause our members and their families to lose the benefits they currently enjoy as participants in multi-employer health plans."

These aren't my words, these are the words of the United Union of Roofers, Waterproofers and Allied Workers that previously supported Obamacare, and after a long period of studying the Affordable Care Act, are publically stating that they are removing their support of it AND are publically calling for its repeal or complete reform. That's considered strong language against Obamacare. This union was the first union to publically state their support for Obamacare, so they were not reluctant adopters.

Now, here's a fact for you. These insurance exchanges through which you will be able to purchase coverage through, are not available yet to the public for review of their available plans. Your coverage under one of these plans is scheduled to start in January 2014, and your enrollment in a plan is expected to begin in October. None of your options have been made public yet, and no schedule for that information has been released. The only information about it so far is that sometime during the summer "educational information will be released." Considering that Obama signed it into law in March of 2010, its been over 3 years, and we still don't have transparency on how it will work for the average American family.

Final fact: The ACA is the law now. Any repeal or reform will need to follow the process of going through Congress. Until then, it is the law of the land, and must be followed. Just because we don't like it, or know that it is not a well designed law, does not mean that it shouldn't be followed until it is changed.

[.blank cd]

The problem is you will think anything we say that is not in line with your opinion (which you are entitled to) is "ideological embellishments ".

How can anything not be in line with an opinion I don't have. LOL

"Because Obama is a...
...loser
...Fool
...Shittiest president in the world
...liberal, conservative, communist, Marxist, socialist, Muslim, anti-Christ
...any combination of the above"

OR

"The ACA/Obamacare is...
...stupid, bullshit, etc.
...liberal, communist, socialist, Marxist, Muslim, etc."

Those are Ideological embellishments.

These are the guidelines. If you're using facts, you should be able to convey your point without breaking these guidelines.

I'm thoroughly covered up at work so I'll address you're reasons in a little bit. But I want to hear them. So keep em coming!

[Sinfix_15]

"I dont have an opinion"

Translation - i no longer have enough confidence in my opinions to put them on record. That will still not stop me from discrediting your opinions -BlankCD

[David88vert]

I'm thoroughly covered up at work so I'll address you're reasons in a little bit. But I want to hear them. So keep em coming!

Do your work - taking care of family comes first.

I'm pretty covered up as well.

[David88vert]

"I dont have an opinion"

Translation - i no longer have enough confidence in my opinions to put them on record. That will still not stop me from discrediting your opinions -BlankCD

I didn't know that you spoke "radical liberal".....

[.blank cd]

"I dont have an opinion"

Translation - i no longer have enough confidence in my opinions to put them on record. That will still not stop me from discrediting your opinions -BlankCD

Started out good, then went to total shit....

The actual translation would be "I don't have an opinion on the issue"

Now continue, unless you're projecting.

[Sinfix_15]

I didn't know that you spoke "radical liberal".....

It's an app

[.blank cd]

To the both of you. I've stated multiple times in this section that I don't feel either way. So you're opinions of "radically liberal" and "lack of confidence" aren't based in fact or reality. We're already off to a bad start.

Is this what I should expect from your reasons why I should want to repeal Obamacare?

[David88vert]

It's an app

LOL

[BanginJimmy]

These are the guidelines. If you're using facts, you should be able to convey your point without breaking these guidelines.

Many legitimate issues have been pointed out dozens of times in any of a dozen threads. Maybe it is time we find someone to stand up and actually find facts that can defend Obamacare.

[David88vert]

To the both of you. I've stated multiple times in this section that I don't feel either way. So you're opinions of "radically liberal" and "lack of confidence" aren't based in fact or reality. We're already off to a bad start.

I simply knew that my post would get a response from both Sinfix and you, hence my post earlier. Don't get upset - I don't want you to go "Obama" on me, and treat me like I was an organization that stands up for Constitutional rights.....

Is this what I should expect from your reasons why I should want to repeal Obamacare?

The reasons that would cause you to want to repeal Obamacare should be your reasons, not anyone elses. You have the same facts and the statistics available to you, that anyone else has. You should be able to figure it out, as just about every opinion has been stated previously. Unless you weren't paying attention in all of the other threads, it should be quite clear and obvious to you now, without us repeating every single point again.

Since you don't want to listen to the opinions of people like me, and you would rather here it from a liberal news sources, here's someone else's insight:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinio...olumn/2006029/


Will states will expand Medicaid up to 133% of poverty, now that the Supreme Court gave them an opt-out?
Will states who don’t already have robust Medicaid coverage – for whom the expansion will represent a bigger lift, as much as a 4% increase in their commitment to the program – shy away from participating?
Will the states and the federal government sufficiently create exchanges that automatically determine eligibility for anyone who accesses them?
Will the feds, not expecting to have to take over the exchange process for the majority of states, prove up to the task (and find the funding)?
Will the subsidies get delivered to insurance companies in a seamless way?
Will we still see efforts at denying coverage or rescinding policies?
Will eligible beneficiaries even know that they’re eligible for subsidies?
Will the states with partisan leaders predisposed to fight Obamacare seek to sabotage the whole effort?
Will Congress shift more costs onto individuals and states in ways that will cause states in particular to resist coverage? What if drug prices start to rise in relative terms, and the cost of health care overall expands in ways that the ACA cannot keep up with?
Will the inevitable failures in implementation sour the public on the program?
Will there ever be an opportunity to improve or tweak this program, given the political realities?

So many questions that are still to be answered.

[bu villain]

Many legitimate issues have been pointed out dozens of times in any of a dozen threads. Maybe it is time we find someone to stand up and actually find facts that can defend Obamacare.

Just playing devils advocate here but I would say there are at least 2:

1) No pre-existing conditions
2) Young kids can stay on their parents' plan until 26

I certainly expect many problems to occur due to Obamacare that we haven't even forseen yet because whenever you make massive changes to a complex system, you are bound to get unintended consequences. That being said, the majority of the law doesn't even go into effect until next year so it's a bit early for the "I told you so". Some problems may get worked out in time, others may not.

[BanginJimmy]

Just playing devils advocate here but I would say there are at least 2:

1) No pre-existing conditions
2) Young kids can stay on their parents' plan until 26

I certainly expect many problems to occur due to Obamacare that we haven't even forseen yet because whenever you make massive changes to a complex system, you are bound to get unintended consequences. That being said, the majority of the law doesn't even go into effect until next year so it's a bit early for the "I told you so". Some problems may get worked out in time, others may not.

The pre existing coverage is one of the major problems with it. Because of the way the law was written, insurers are going to be paying huge sums of money dor their care and not allowed to recoup those costs unless they massively raise rates on everyone.

Coverage on your parents plan until 26 is such a small side issue that it doesn't warrant much comment.

There are several of the small side issues that are nice but none of them are significant to the bill.

Sent from my S3 using Tapatalk 2.

[Sinfix_15]

Just playing devils advocate here but I would say there are at least 2:

1) No pre-existing conditions
2) Young kids can stay on their parents' plan until 26

I certainly expect many problems to occur due to Obamacare that we haven't even forseen yet because whenever you make massive changes to a complex system, you are bound to get unintended consequences. That being said, the majority of the law doesn't even go into effect until next year so it's a bit early for the "I told you so". Some problems may get worked out in time, others may not.

Insurance wont cover you because of pre-existing conditions.....

Now doctors wont see you because of pre-existing insurance.....

awesome!

[Vteckidd]

1) No pre-existing conditions
2) Young kids can stay on their parents' plan until 26

1. The prexisting conditions SOUNDs great, but its not possible. its one of the major problems with the legislation. Tell me WHY you think its GOOD, so I can see if you see the full 360 of the issue. That sounds arrogant, im not insinuating you dont know anything, im asking why you think it is good.

2. 26 years old you should be paying your own insurance, sorry. Thats 1/3 of your life. sStaying on your parents insurance till 22-23 i can understand (till you graduate college). After that, you should pay for any service you want

[David88vert]

2. 26 years old you should be paying your own insurance, sorry. Thats 1/3 of your life. sStaying on your parents insurance till 22-23 i can understand (till you graduate college). After that, you should pay for any service you want

So, how is someone who is studying to be a doctor supposed to be able to have coverage so that he can see a doctor himself, while he is still in school? Don't you think that asking him to get a PhD in 4-5 years is a little ambitious?

Should it be that he is covered under his parent's insurance, until he is no longer enrolled in school or not being claimed as a dependent on his parent's taxes?

[.blank cd]

Many legitimate issues have been pointed out dozens of times in any of a dozen threads. Maybe it is time we find someone to stand up and actually find facts that can defend Obamacare.

Just wait. Lol

[bu villain]

The pre existing coverage is one of the major problems with it. Because of the way the law was written, insurers are going to be paying huge sums of money dor their care and not allowed to recoup those costs unless they massively raise rates on everyone.

I think that is the point. It will raise rates for everyone so that people with pre-existing conditions will not be doomed to a life of uncontrollable medical bills. I understand you may not see that as a good thing because it has you paying more but I think it is a good thing from a societal standpoint. I know if I got cancer tomorrow and lost my job and thus my insurance, I would be very thankful that I could still get medical treatment without going bankrupt. I am willing to pay more to ensure everyone can receive that treatment.

Insurance wont cover you because of pre-existing conditions.....

Now doctors wont see you because of pre-existing insurance.....

awesome!

I don't understand what you are saying. Doctors won't see you because you have insurance?

1. The prexisting conditions SOUNDs great, but its not possible. its one of the major problems with the legislation. Tell me WHY you think its GOOD, so I can see if you see the full 360 of the issue. That sounds arrogant, im not insinuating you dont know anything, im asking why you think it is good.

See my response to Jimmy above.

2. 26 years old you should be paying your own insurance, sorry. Thats 1/3 of your life. sStaying on your parents insurance till 22-23 i can understand (till you graduate college). After that, you should pay for any service you want

I think David gave a good response to this above. Just to elaborate, lots of modern jobs require extra schooling, not just doctors. When my son was born, I had to pay more to have him covered under my plan. I don't see the downside of letting children stay on their parent's plans longer.

[BanginJimmy]

Just wait. Lol

For? I dont want to hear about how 90% of people are for Obamacare when you break down the benefits either. Of course people are all for the benefits, so am I. I am not for what it is going to cost us in terms of taxes, insurance premiums, and loss of freedoms. The prescident is now set and Congress can force you to buy any product they want you to buy or fine you through the tax code.

[BanginJimmy]

I think that is the point. It will raise rates for everyone so that people with pre-existing conditions will not be doomed to a life of uncontrollable medical bills. I understand you may not see that as a good thing because it has you paying more but I think it is a good thing from a societal standpoint. I know if I got cancer tomorrow and lost my job and thus my insurance, I would be very thankful that I could still get medical treatment without going bankrupt. I am willing to pay more to ensure everyone can receive that treatment.

It isnt going to be a small rise in rates. We are likely talking 100+% rise in rates over the next 5 years. I'm not sure you understand just how much it costs to treat cancer or other long term diseases. It could take 1000 new healthy customers to cover each cancer patient.

I don't understand what you are saying. Doctors won't see you because you have insurance?

Medicare/medicaid recipients are already having a hard time finding docs because those programs dont pay the docs enough to cover their costs. There is also a massive shortage of primary care docs all over the country. Both of these problems will be balloon with the inception of Obamacare. The result is a massive increase in patients and a decrease in available docs. This is where the lower quality care comes into play. The days of a doc knowing you and your habits will be gone. Rural area docs that barely get by now will likely leave to head into higher populated areas or retire.

[bu villain]

It isnt going to be a small rise in rates. We are likely talking 100+% rise in rates over the next 5 years. I'm not sure you understand just how much it costs to treat cancer or other long term diseases. It could take 1000 new healthy customers to cover each cancer patient.

I do understand that but I don't see a good alternative. Trust me, I don't think Obamacare is great legislation and I like a lot of ideas championed by opponents such as buying across state lines. The issue of soaring health costs must be addressed with or without Obamacare and quite simply it wasn't happening. I am young, healthy, and have great health benefits through my job. I probably have more to lose than most from Obamacare. If people want to repeal and replace, I encourage that, but doing nothing is not an acceptable option to me.

Medicare/medicaid recipients are already having a hard time finding docs because those programs dont pay the docs enough to cover their costs. There is also a massive shortage of primary care docs all over the country. Both of these problems will be balloon with the inception of Obamacare. The result is a massive increase in patients and a decrease in available docs. This is where the lower quality care comes into play. The days of a doc knowing you and your habits will be gone. Rural area docs that barely get by now will likely leave to head into higher populated areas or retire.

I don't disagree. You asked for some good things about Obamacare. I never said there were no downsides.

[BanginJimmy]

I do understand that but I don't see a good alternative. Trust me, I don't think Obamacare is great legislation and I like a lot of ideas championed by opponents such as buying across state lines. The issue of soaring health costs must be addressed with or without Obamacare and quite simply it wasn't happening. I am young, healthy, and have great health benefits through my job. I probably have more to lose than most from Obamacare. If people want to repeal and replace, I encourage that, but doing nothing is not an acceptable option to me.

Want to know how bad Obamacare is? We would have been better off without it. The damage it will do FAR outweights the benefits.

I don't disagree. You asked for some good things about Obamacare. I never said there were no downsides.

That is like saying there are positive aspects of cancer. Its a great diet, as long as you dont look at the negatives.

[Browning151]

Why should I hate and want to repeal Obamacare?

There's been discussion after discussion about why this thing is bad and how it's going to affect people in a negative way, and it seems almost daily there is another story of how it is going to affect people, or has already. The few positives I've seen are far outweighed by the negatives of massively increased costs and dr shortages. What good is healthcare for everyone if the cost is crippling and it's nearly impossible to see a dr? There's been NUMEROUS discussions on ways to improve the system to actually make it better, but they don't reach the end-game of a single payer system so they are discredited and tossed aside.

[.blank cd]

But I still haven't seen a good argument for a repeal rather than just fixing what's wrong.

[Browning151]

But I still haven't seen a good argument for a repeal rather than just fixing what's wrong.

Logic and rational thinking. That's all you need.

Obamacare doesn't solve any issues with our current healthcare system, it only further complicates and breaks down the system. How do you fix something that breaks an already broken system even further? Why spend countless hours and resources to "fix" this garbage when you can start from the ground up with an approach that actually addresses the issues with healthcare?