Union pulls support for Obamacare, a sign of things to come?

[.blank cd]

Uh, yeah they do, its called a lockout. IT happened last season.

If Obama passed a law saying that professional athletes across the board have to take a 10-20% cut in salary because its not fair that their college counterparts dont make as much, you would see players quit. Absolutely. Guys like LBJ wont care, but guys like Josh Smith, who are due a big contract, will be PISSSSED.

My solution to the lockout would be to fire all of them and draft some new players. If they quit, they didnt deserve it anyway, and someone just as talented and willing to play the game would take their place.

Every single player in the NBA was good before they signed the contract.

[.blank cd]

How good you are directly relates to your compensation.

...After the fact though. Lebron James was the best before he made his first dollar, like every other professional athlete. How do you explain that? Talent can increase because of compensation, but its not the only factor. Correlation is not causation.

You cannot lower wages and expect the same talent. NOT POSSIBLE. And why does someone with as little medical background as Blank, or any liberal not in the field, think they know what doctors should make?

No one is suggesting what doctors should make. I'm only saying if the end result of healthcare is to make it cheaper and more available to everyone, and if a doctors salary takes a negligible hit along the way, I can't feel sorry for them.

[David88vert]

So you're saying these doctors that are making 300k a year are just getting by for the rest of their lives because they had to borrow 120k for college? Can you show me just one example of a doctor making $2-300k who is barely getting by because he's saddled with 100k of school debt?

Why are people losing insurance?

$120K is on the low end. Specialists that make more tend to have to take more schooling.
I never said that they were just getting by. I said that they were upper middle class. You really need to work on your reading comprehension and memory skills. You also are exhibiting zero critical thinking. Perhaps that is why you are making much less income, you are lacking the skillset required for these types of professions.

Do you realize that these doctors are spending a decade working at no/low rates, and are incurring massive debt for around a decade before they start earning decent income? And then, they have massive startup costs if they start their own practice? On top of that, if they want to have their own family and provide well for them, they have those costs as well. $200K does not go very far, when you have to spend a lot of it on paying back debt.

People are losing insurance because it is getting more expensive to purchase under the new ACA plan. You obviously either did not read the article that I posted, or you were not able to comprehend basic economics.

[Vteckidd]

My solution to the lockout would be to fire all of them and draft some new players. If they quit, they didnt deserve it anyway, and someone just as talented and willing to play the game would take their place.

Every single player in the NBA was good before they signed the contract.

So now youre against unions? But the evil corporation was trying to take advantage of them so they went on strike? So would you support any corporation doing the exact same thing you just said? Firing all its employees and just hiring scabs?

Its clear your motives are based upon jealousy or hatred of people who have more than you. Not saying that to be snarky, just it seems you give certain groups of people a pass that you identify with, and demagogue those that you feel have too much as perceived by you.

[David88vert]

My solution to the lockout would be to fire all of them and draft some new players. If they quit, they didnt deserve it anyway, and someone just as talented and willing to play the game would take their place.

Every single player in the NBA was good before they signed the contract.

Yeah, let's just fire all the doctors that complain about their pay being cut. That'll show them. We can just get some more from somewhere.....

Critical thinking - you're missing it.....

[David88vert]

...After the fact though. Lebron James was the best before he made his first dollar, like every other professional athlete. How do you explain that? Talent can increase because of compensation, but its not the only factor. Correlation is not causation.

No one is suggesting what doctors should make. I'm only saying if the end result of healthcare is to make it cheaper and more available to everyone, and if a doctors salary takes a negligible hit along the way, I can't feel sorry for them.

There it is - you think that it is negligible because you don't see it. Wealth distribution - take from those evil rich doctors and let everyone eat cake.

[Vteckidd]

...After the fact though. Lebron James was the best before he made his first dollar, like every other professional athlete. How do you explain that? Talent can increase because of compensation, but its not the only factor. Correlation is not causation.

Lebron was compensated based upon how good he was. There are plenty of people who are probably better than LBJ but they will never make it, for whatever reasons. Their is talent that is inherent. The best heart surgeon in the world, is that for a reason, talent, drive, determination.

There might be a guy just as good as LBJ, but didnt have the drive and determination to utilize his talent like LBJ did. Same with doctors.

Point is, they are paid the most becuase they are the best.

No one is suggesting what doctors should make. I'm only saying if the end result of healthcare is to make it cheaper and more available to everyone, and if a doctors salary takes a negligible hit along the way, I can't feel sorry for them.

Quality of care is directly related to what a Dr. makes. Healthcare is a for profit business, the market dictates salaries and labor /service costs, not the govt.

[Vteckidd]

Yeah, let's just fire all the doctors that complain about their pay being cut. That'll show them. We can just get some more from somewhere.....

Critical thinking - you're missing it.....

That is what I call a bait and switch. he had to real way to answer that question either way he was doomed :P

Blank i love ya man, but you just dont understand the entire problem, you only see the cost side of it.

[.blank cd]

$120K is on the low end. Specialists that make more tend to have to take more schooling.
I never said that they were just getting by. I said that they were upper middle class. You really need to work on your reading comprehension and memory skills. You also are exhibiting zero critical thinking

You definitely said normal. Normal and upper middle class are not the same thing. Maybe you're lacking memory skills. Do you not remember saying normal? Is 200k/year normal or upper middle class? Stick with your story.

Perhaps that is why you are making much less income, you are lacking the skillset required for these types of professions.

This is a Sinfix level dumbass comment. Education and compensation are hardly even indirectly correlated.

Do you realize that these doctors are spending a decade working at no/low rates, and are incurring massive debt for around a decade before they start earning decent income? And then, they have massive startup costs if they start their own practice? On top of that, if they want to have their own family and provide well for them, they have those costs as well. $200K does not go very far, when you have to spend a lot of it on paying back debt.

People are losing insurance because it is getting more expensive to purchase under the new ACA plan.

Why?

[.blank cd]

Yeah, let's just fire all the doctors that complain about their pay being cut. That'll show them. We can just get some more from somewhere.....

Critical thinking - you're missing it.....

Another Sinfix level comment. Get it together.

[Vteckidd]

200-300k a year seems like a lot, to the guy making $50k a year. But its not. Remember 40% goes to taxes, then you have car payment, house note, insurance on both, 401K , health insurance, cell phone, if hes married, then the wifes car, children? Clothing food college education.

200-300K NET is 120-180k take home BEFORE bills after taxes. Its not a lot of money at all. 2 car payments and a house note ($250-300k house) eats a lot of that up. And, as i demonstrated, they have gone through enough schooling that their professions pays that much for a reason.

[David88vert]

You definitely said normal. Normal and upper middle class are not the same thing. Maybe you're lacking memory skills. Do you not remember saying normal? Is 200k/year normal or upper middle class? Stick with your story.

This is a Sinfix level dumbass comment. Education and compensation are hardly even indirectly correlated.

Do you realize that these doctors are spending a decade working at no/low rates, and are incurring massive debt for around a decade before they start earning decent income? And then, they have massive startup costs if they start their own practice? On top of that, if they want to have their own family and provide well for them, they have those costs as well. $200K does not go very far, when you have to spend a lot of it on paying back debt.

People are losing insurance because it is getting more expensive to purchase under the new ACA plan.

I stated upper middle class from the start. That is normal. These are not the people making millions of dollars. Even Obama stated that taxes would be targeted to those making over $250K/yr. Normal was under $250K.

Education and income are not related? Are you really suggesting that? Go back to your previous comments on education in other threads.

I stand by my comment - you do not have the skillset to make the money that doctors make. You do not have the education. You can try to argue it, but its the truth.

[.blank cd]

So now youre against unions? But the evil corporation was trying to take advantage of them so they went on strike? So would you support any corporation doing the exact same thing you just said? Firing all its employees and just hiring scabs?

No. My feeling on the NBA lockout have nothing to do with what I feel about unions or healthcare.

Its clear your motives are based upon jealousy or hatred of people who have more than you. Not saying that to be snarky, just it seems you give certain groups of people a pass that you identify with, and demagogue those that you feel have too much as perceived by you.

Not jealous or hating at all really.

[David88vert]

Another Sinfix level comment. Get it together.

You were discussing basketball players as though they were doctors. You need to get it together.

[Vteckidd]

Last thing ill say :

Cutting the Dr. pay, wont help the poor person get health insurance.

Thats like saying "oh, we will cut Ferrari prices 20% so poor people can buy a car". It doesnt work, you can do things to let the market cause prices to FALL naturally, but any of this direct interference never works, see the housing crises, student loans, etc etc etc.

Govt intervention= rising costs (not less).

What are premiums right now? RISING year over year

[Vteckidd]

No. My feeling on the NBA lockout have nothing to do with what I feel about unions or healthcare.

NBA players= Union, League= Corporation

You just said you would break their union and hire scabs. Kinda radical statement from a progressive. Now youre starting to sound like a conservative

[.blank cd]

200-300k a year seems like a lot, to the guy making $50k a year. But its not. Remember 40% goes to taxes, then you have car payment, house note, insurance on both, 401K , health insurance, cell phone, if hes married, then the wifes car, children? Clothing food college education

I pay for all that stuff too.....what's your point?

[Quote200-300K NET is 120-180k take home BEFORE bills after taxes. Its not a lot of money at all. 2 car payments and a house note ($250-300k house) eats a lot of that up. And, as i demonstrated, they have gone through enough schooling that their professions pays that much for a reason.[/QUOTE]So my normal and their normal is different. Why is that?

[.blank cd]

[QUOTE=David88vert;39506216]I stated upper middle class from the start. That is normal. These are not the people making millions of dollars. Even Obama stated that taxes would be targeted to those making over $250K/yr. Normal was under $250K.

Education and income are not related? Are you really suggesting that? Go back to your previous comments on education in other threads.

I have never ever suggested anything more than a weak correlation. If you go through my threads or read anything I've posted, you'd understand this. The richest man the US was a college dropout. Education and income are a weak correlation.

I stand by my comment - you do not have the skillset to make the money that doctors make. You do not have the education. You can try to argue it, but its the truth.

Yes. I did not go to medical school. Good job pointing that out. What's your point?

[.blank cd]

NBA players= Union, League= Corporation

You just said you would break their union and hire scabs. Kinda radical statement from a progressive. Now youre starting to sound like a conservative

Like I said, my feelings on the NBA lockout have nothing to do with my feelings on unions or healthcare or corporations.

I like to asses things on a case by case basis.

[David88vert]

I have never ever suggested anything more than a weak correlation. If you go through my threads or read anything I've posted, you'd understand this. The richest man the US was a college dropout. Education and income are a weak correlation.

Yes. I did not go to medical school. Good job pointing that out. What's your point?

Simple point. If you had gone through a decade of scraping by, and incurred $150K in debt, plus debt from living expenses, and don't forget the debt from buying medial equipment, medical insurance, a house, cars, family insurance, etc, you might feel that $140K net is not exactly letting you save a lot of money.

[Sinfix_15]

Another Sinfix level comment. Get it together.

"Sinfix level" appears to be above your own.

[Vteckidd]

Like I said, my feelings on the NBA lockout have nothing to do with my feelings on unions or healthcare or corporations.

I like to asses things on a case by case basis.

Its clear your motives are based upon jealousy or hatred of people who have more than you. Not saying that to be snarky, just it seems you give certain groups of people a pass that you identify with, and demagogue those that you feel have too much as perceived by you.

Like i said, i rest my case.

[.blank cd]

Like i said, i rest my case.

Not that the two have anything to do with each other though. So, not sure how you're resting your case. It has nothing to do with jealousy or hatred. I don't hate rich people, and If I wanted to play ball professionally, or be a neurosurgeon, I would have. That's the end of that.


In any case. The question posed was "why should I want to repeal Obamacare"

Are y'all's only answers "because doctors salaries might take a negligible hit?" Anything else?

[David88vert]

Are y'all's only answers "because doctors salaries might take a negligible hit?" Anything else?

Again, reading comprehension - you need to work on it. Neither of us made that statement - so you aren't quoting either of us.

I gave you a 2 page article on Forbes that went into details. The CBO - one of the sources that you used to use for almost every post - even estimates that Obamacare is not going to deliver what it claimed - and will cause major issues.
As it currently stands now, Obamacare needs complete reform - and it hasn't even kicked in fully.

[.blank cd]

Again, reading comprehension - you need to work on it. Neither of us made that statement - so you aren't quoting either of us.

That I should be sympathetic to the needs of upper middle class doctor families with regards to college debt. Because they deserve to be millionaires because they've worked so hard during the course of their careers. Im pretty sure that was what was said...

[.blank cd]

The article you linked said there are less people uninsured, and even went as far as suggesting universal healthcare was better with his fire insurance analogy. Lol.

[David88vert]

The article you linked said there are less people uninsured, and even went as far as suggesting universal healthcare was better with his fire insurance analogy. Lol.

Where is an article that youve written that has been published by Forbes?

[David88vert]

That I should be sympathetic to the needs of upper middle class doctor families with regards to college debt. Because they deserve to be millionaires because they've worked so hard during the course of their careers. Im pretty sure that was what was said...

Thanks for confirming that you cannot comprehend what is written. That pretty much explains why you write what you write.

[.blank cd]

Where is an article that youve written that has been published by Forbes?

I could write one and have it published by them if you'd like, Why would that matter?

[.blank cd]

Thanks for confirming that you cannot comprehend what is written. That pretty much explains why you write what you write.

Was this or was this not written?

[David88vert]

I could write one and have it published by them if you'd like, Why would that matter?

Please do. I want to see you get anything published on Forbes, especially defending Obamacare.

It will matter a lot to me, and probably several other people on here.

[.blank cd]

Please do. I want to see you get anything published on Forbes, especially defending Obamacare.

It will matter a lot to me, and probably several other people on here.

I'm close enough to Krugman, and he's a better writer than I am. Lol

[David88vert]

I'm close enough to Krugman, and he's a better writer than I am. Lol

We still want to see it from you. IA celebrity status.

[Vteckidd]

I see no need to repeat points I've made at length over the last year or more. You either get it or you don't. No need to debate any further.

I see no real rebuttal to any point I've made, just my opinion

[Browning151]

The question posed was "why should I want to repeal Obamacare"

Are y'all's only answers "because doctors salaries might take a negligible hit?" Anything else?

There's been more reasons than that posted in this thread, and several others. Many more.



Reading through this thread I almost felt like Total_Blender was back for a minute.

[bu villain]

makes for a great movie, but its simply not true. People want nice things, they want to leave wealth for their kids, go on vacations, own a home, etc. Money drives our ENTIRE SOCIETY. You are compensated for how well you do in life i mean its not even debatable.

Your whole argument is a tautology. Of course money is a factor in how people live their lives but it is not the ONLY factor. That is my only message. Your last statement is quite debatable. I do not think the creators of angry birds are necessarily living a better life (ie, more valuable to society, admirable, etc) than a humble priest just because they get paid a hell of a lot more. Your view fits perfectly into an economist's capitalistic model but fails to recognize the real world factors such as the irrationality of individuals and difference in personal values.

Ok, why is it:
The best athlete in basketball is paid the most?
The best Heart surgeon is paid the most?
The best Neurosurgeon in the world is paid the most?
The best salesmen at a company makes the most?
The best coach in the NBA gets paid the most ?
The best QB gets paid the most money? (Ok bad example, but generally speaking its true)

How good you are directly relates to your compensation.

I wasn't arguing with you that highly skilled people usually are paid better. I was arguing that the opposite is not true. That is, getting paid a lot does not make you more skilled. Logically speaking you are saying if X then Y. That doesn't mean if Y then X. Causation vs correlation.

[Sinfix_15]

Had to go to the DMV today, i cant wait until healthcare runs like that well oiled machine.

[David88vert]

I do not think the creators of angry birds are necessarily living a better life (ie, more valuable to society, admirable, etc) than a humble priest just because they get paid a hell of a lot more.

The government would say that the creators of Angry Birds are worth more to the government. They get lots of tax revenue off them, but nothing from the tax-exempt priests.

Atheists probably think that the game creators are worth more as well.

People of the priest's faith probably value the priests more, but their kids probably value the game creators more.

Point is - people value what is more closely related to their day to day lives, and we are all different in our values. Even though all life should be valued the same, it rarely is.

[Sinfix_15]

HHS stages multimillion-dollar PR campaign to promote Obamacare

[Browning151]

They've gotta try and polish that turd somehow, might as well waste a few million more on it.