I see no reason to scrap this car, it just needs a little body workOriginally Posted by .blank cd
I see no reason to scrap this car, it just needs a little body work
Logic and rational thinking would tell you then that scrapping Obamacare and starting all over would also require countless hours and resources. And how do you conclude that it's broken beyond repair? Many people can get insurance now that couldn't get it before.
Many people cant find a doctor to see them now that could find a doctor to see them before.
Look a little deeper into the cause of this....
If doctors refuse Medicare patients, that's on them, and I'm pretty sure they're breaking a law in the process
Nope, not breaking a law. Non-PAR Doctors are not required to take Medicare. It's just going to be hard for some of them to stay in practice if they don't take it.
Medicare Participation Options for Physicians -- Running a Practice -- AAFP
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
Going to be hard to stay in practice? Lol
I kinda find that hard to believe in a field that's been in existence since the beginning of mankind.
never underestimate the government's ability to fuck things up for business.
If a lot of doctors quit taking government payment, then they are limited to only taking patient payment and private insurance payments. Increase the pool of doctors doing this, decrease the number of businesses that offer private insurance, pushing more people to Obamacare, and guess what happens? Many people cannot pay out of pocket, and will not pay higher rates for private insurance. This equates to a smaller pool of people that aren't using Obamacare. Its a spiral towards Obama's goal - a single payer system.
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
I can get my MD in 24 months but my argument here is invalid and your point is credible.
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Not breaking a law unless they refuse care to a patient that needs immediate care and life or limb is at stake.
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They start bleeding money from all the people they're rejecting, and eventually start taking Medicare patients back again?
...and the problem is?This equates to a smaller pool of people that aren't using Obamacare. Its a spiral towards Obama's goal - a single payer system.
You assume that a single payer system will work. You do not appear to recognize that many doctors will not be able to maintain their current standard of living if they have to continue to pay for expensive medical training, and take much lower payments for their services. You will see doctors who can no longer afford their lifestyles, which will mean that they may not be able to live in the same neighborhoods, or be able to do the same leisure activities, which impacts those businesses as well. It's a ripple effect.
If the costs to continue to rise in order become a doctor, and stay in practice, yet you lower their payment in return significantly, people will choose not to become doctors in the future, which will in turn, lengthen wait times for services that doctors provide.
If you studied economics, you should already know this.
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
Countless hours spent addressing actual issues and solving healthcare problems is more wisely spent than countless hours spent trying to "fix" a bureaucratic nightmare that further complicates an already complicated system. The logical ways to "fix" healthcare have been discussed over and over again, but they don't meet the end-game requirements of single payer.
At what cost? Decreased quality of care, fewer available physicians, higher overall cost........Many people can get insurance now that couldn't get it before.
The utopian idea of free and equal access to everything for everyone is great in theory, impossible in practice.
....and there we have it, you have no problem with the end-game of the charade that is Obamacare; a single payer system.
So because I studied economics, I'm supposed to feel sorry for the doctor that has to downgrade to a 5 bedroom mansion from their current 10 bedroom one, and an Lexus in place of their Benz?
This changes everything. Give me a second while I count the tears I shed for them.
Done.
I don't see the number of physicians dropping to an unsustainable level, unless the majority of Americans somehow get immune to diseases and bulletproof. No one is gonna just stop being a doctor because the market value of their service goes down 10%. It's a silly thought, and not the mark of anyone who has any business sense.
"Let me just stop working because I don't make as much as I used to"
Except that its not a utopian idea, and it works in practice.The utopian idea of free and equal access to everything for everyone is great in theory, impossible in practice.
And no, I don't have a problem with universal healthcare, neither does most of the industrialized world for that matter.
Ridiculously oversimplified.
Really? Where?Except that its not a utopian idea, and it works in practice.
why 26? why not 30? 35? 50?
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yes, because that Dr. probably had 100 times the educational costs you did, worked 80 hour a week rotations, performed complex operations that you cant even dream of, passed tests you are incapable of passing (because otherwise, you would be a doctor yourself), and he deserves to be a millionaire.
You guys act like someone goes to school for 4 years and comes out a Dr. making a million dollars a year.
Most Drs. take YEARS of schooling and YEARS of residency before any of their work pays off. Then, they have to open a business, and that business, like any other business, has to be profitable and sustain itself.
You only look at half the problem, never the whole problem. Their lifestyle is irrelevant, they earned it. If he wants to buy 10 ferraris, thats his right. If youre jealous, go be a doctor
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Are you asking where free and equal healthcare is practiced?
Not jealous at all really. And no one in this thread said Dr.s only go to school for 4 years. I understand what it takes to be a doctor, thats why I'm not one. If their lifestyle is irrelevant, why should I feel sorry if they're millionaires or not? Why should I feel sympathy for a doctor who isn't gonna be able to afford that 10th Ferrari, while at the same time, there are people in the most industrialized nation in the world, who have to decide whether to be unhealthy or go bankrupt?
Rich doctors is what makes them great.
Personal wealth is what drives people to be the best at what they do. If you take that away, then theres no incentive to achieve.
If I told you tomorrow that your job is now getting a 20% paycut, and everyone, from the CEO to the high school intern is going to be paid the same amount of money, minimum wage, then you would be furious. You worked hard to get where you are , achieve your position. Why should you take a paycut?
What makes you think thats any different when its gets to someone making millions of dollars a year.
Its easy to say "they have too much" because you make 1/1000th their income. Im not in favor of rich people telling poor people how to live, or vice versa
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No ones asking you to feel sorry. But if someone makes enough money to buy 10 Ferraris, thats none of your business. Sounds like you (and me) chose the wrong profession. Why? BECAUSE ITS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT AND HARD. You should be picketing every major sports game and asking why Athletes make so much money why people go witout healthcare. Why pick on the doctors? Why not Rappers who make millions? Why not athletes? Actors? Why so much tunnel vision?
Being unhealthy and not affording insurance is a totally SEPARATE problem that has nothing to do with Doctors Salaries.
And, ill even bet you $$$$ that most people who say they cant afford healthcare, are full of shit. They dont treat it as a priority. They can afford it, they just dont want to pay for it.
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You don't get it. They aren't living in a big mansion - they live in my neighborhood. They live in your neighborhood. They take on massive amounts of debt to become doctors, and live an upper MIDDLE class lifestyle. These aren't the very wealthy, they are normal people who just happen to manage a larger amount of income and debt than the average family.
What the current proposal will do is take a large portion of the revenue away without reducing any of the debt. The result will be less people who chose to become doctors, while the population continues to increase. This will increase wait times for surgeries, basic services, etc.
Of course, there is another route that these doctors could take - see more patients in the same amount of time, and maintain their income from the reduced amount that the government payment system gives for seeing a patient. If the doctor comes in, glances at the chart, and makes a quick prescription, he can see more patients. Who do you think loses out on quality care then? Or do you think that the care being given will still be the same, with less focus on each patient being given by the doctor?
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
This is very very demonstrably false.
This isn't at all what I was suggesting.If I told you tomorrow that your job is now getting a 20% paycut, and everyone, from the CEO to the high school intern is going to be paid the same amount of money, minimum wage, then you would be furious. You worked hard to get where you are , achieve your position. Why should you take a paycut?
Nor am I suggesting how rich people should live.What makes you think thats any different when its gets to someone making millions of dollars a year.
Its easy to say "they have too much" because you make 1/1000th their income. Im not in favor of rich people telling poor people how to live, or vice versa
You're saying that no doctors are living in a big expensive neighborhood? Are you 100% sure about that?
No one is going to choose not to become a doctor because they can only make 900k instead of a mil. That would be stupid. I would need more evidence that people become doctors solely because of the money and not because they want to be a doctor, or that its in the publics interest that we pay doctors what they're paid.What the current proposal will do is take a large portion of the revenue away without reducing any of the debt. The result will be less people who chose to become doctors, while the population continues to increase. This will increase wait times for surgeries, basic services, etc.
Both of these arguments are flimsy at best, definitely idealogical, and aren't good reasons why I should want to repeal Obamacare.
If that is true, I see no reason there wouldn't be ample support for repealing and replacing it with better legislation.
The question I was answering then was "what are the upsides of cancer?". That is what I answered, I never tried to argue that the positives outweighed the negatives. Also I was making the point that even bad legislation can have a positive effect in that now Republicans and anti-Obamacare people must take action to replace it. They can't sit on the sidelines and do nothing like they were for the last few decades.
Either you are playing dumb or you are just fundamentally unable to grasp the concept that David is attempting to convey to you, my guess would be the former.
Do you really believe that? If you ask the best scientist, athletes, CEOs, etc what motivated them to achieve greatness, what percent of them do you think would answer "money"? In my experience, the ones who are in a profession only for the money, often are either really bad at their job or don't last long enough to become great.
LOL pull your head out of the sand.
99% of people make choices based upon INCOME.
The best Athletes ALWAYS MAKE $$$$$$$
You think James Harden wanted to make less money? FUCK NO, HE WANTED A MAX CONTRACT, OKC said SEEYA.
Lebron went to Miami becaues FL has no Income tax and he would get more endorsement money in a bigger market=$$$$$$
Albert Pujols left St Louis to go MAKE DAT MONAY
Doctors are noble people, but you are completely ignoring the costs associated with being great. Doctors make lots of money FOR A REASON.
You know why im in IT? Its not because i love it, its because it fucking pays and affords me the opportunity to go do WHAT I LOVE (vacations, sporting events, etc).
Blank is saying well, that doctor can only have 9 ferraris instead of 10 so "X" can have health insurance. Its a retarded statement, its complete BS, and its stereotyping people he has no idea what they had to do to ge tin their position.
Do you think the best heart surgeon in the world just woke up 1 day and said "yeah, today ill be a millionaire".
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FYI , the AVERAGE Heart surgeon makes in the $500,000 range, Neuro Science is the top field where the median income is $700K (NOT millionaires.)
Average cost for a Heart Surgeon?
+in 2009, graduates from medical school programs had accumulated an average debt of $156,456, according to the American Medical Association.
Then you have residency which :
FYI during that period, most residents are paid between 20-50K a year, sometimes meals are provided.The residency must last at least six years and include 24 months of training in performing thoracic procedures, including heart surgery. Heart surgeons also gain experience performing general surgical operations during the course of the residency.
then:
Thats right, after medical school and residency for 6 fucking years, you get to take a test to become certified in your field.After completing the mandatory residency, prospective heart surgeons must gain certification from the American Board of Thoracic Surgery. This requires passing a two-part examination. The first part consists of 250 multiple-choice questions. Lasting up to 5 1/2 hours, the test is given by computer at Pearson Vue Testing Centers throughout the United States. The second part of the examination is an oral test, during which prospective thoracic surgeons undergo three interviews regarding patient case histories. The test is given once per year and requires physicians to travel to Chicago, Illinois. After passing both exams, physicians receive board certification. As of 2011, the cost to take the written and oral exams was $1,225 and $1,500, respectively.
Call me crazy, but after all that, i think the guy should be able to afford 10 Ferraris if he makes that kind of money in his own practice.
The poor person you are upset over not having insurance, has fuck all to do with this doctor making that kind of money. Thats like being mad at the guy that owns a Dealership because you dont own a Ferrari
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Oh yeah, MEDIAN incomes for all professions
Radiology: $315,000
Orthopedics: $315,000
Cardiology: $314,000
Plastic surgery: $270,000
General surgery: $265,000
Obstetrics/Gynecology: $220,000
Psychiatry: $170,000
Pediatrics: $156,000
OMG, SO RICH. $200-300k a year, is not rich at all, not even close, especially when you graduate with $100-150k in debt
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Chipper Jones was one of the best players in baseball. Continually took less and less money to stay with the braves. I guess he's an outlier though...
If you can name one athlete who genuinely sucked until he got a major league contract, I'll believe you. Lol. Good luck.
I am not saying that no doctors are living in big expensive neighborhoods. I am saying that the majority of them are living in normal homes, and have normal lives. These changes would impact normal general practitioners the hardest.
You seem to live with the fallacious belief that Obamacare will only reduce the payments to the doctors by 10%, and that everyone will be covered under the new ACA. That couldn't be farther from the truth.
Obama kept mentioning that 47 million did not have health insurance in the US. The CBO estimates that 30 million will STILL NOT be uninsured under Obamacare.
The CBO estimates that between 7 million to 20 million will lose their existing coverage due to Obamacare incentives.
In February, CBO reported that “in 2019 [5 years after Obamacare is implemented], an estimated 12 million people who would have had an offer of employment-based coverage under prior law will lose their offer under current law [aka ‘Obamacare’].” - FORBES
Here is someone else who makes the same points that I make : Look Out Below, The Obamacare Chaos Is Coming - Forbes
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
Sort of. No basketball player has ever said "I'm gonna quit playing ball because they don't wanna pay me 25mil a year. Hasn't happened ever.
This isn't what I'm suggesting at all though.Blank is saying well, that doctor can only have 9 ferraris instead of 10 so "X" can have health insurance. Its a retarded statement, its complete BS, and its stereotyping people he has no idea what they had to do to ge tin their position."
First of all, I never said doctors shouldn't be well compensated. I was only replying to your comment that money is the motivator for greatness and that being rich is actually the cause of greatness. You think Lebron would have been a heart surgeon if he was only paid 300k a year to play basketball? Did you choose IT because you couldn't possibly make more money anywhere else? Everyone wants to be paid as much as they can but to ignore all the other factors in the equation is absurd. People often choose passion, lifestyle, family, location, etc over a bigger paycheck. People who would still do what they do even if they weren't paid are the usually the ones who become great, not the ones who would ditch their work the minute they found something that paid better.
I don't care what blank said. I was replying to one specific part of your post, not his.
So your perception of normal is different than mine. VTEC just said your average doc is making 2-300k per year. Is that normal now? What's median income these days? I don't even make a quarter of that and I thought I was doin pretty normal. Guess I'm really slummin it huh? LOL
Didnt say this either.You seem to live with the fallacious belief that Obamacare will only reduce the payments to the doctors by 10%, and that everyone will be covered under the new ACA. That couldn't be farther from the truth.
Why?Obama kept mentioning that 47 million did not have health insurance in the US. The CBO estimates that 30 million will STILL NOT be uninsured under Obamacare.
The CBO estimates that between 7 million to 20 million will lose their existing coverage due to Obamacare incentives.
In February, CBO reported that “in 2019 [5 years after Obamacare is implemented], an estimated 12 million people who would have had an offer of employment-based coverage under prior law will lose their offer under current law [aka ‘Obamacare’].” - FORBES
]
Uh, yeah they do, its called a lockout. IT happened last season.
If Obama passed a law saying that professional athletes across the board have to take a 10-20% cut in salary because its not fair that their college counterparts dont make as much, you would see players quit. Absolutely. Guys like LBJ wont care, but guys like Josh Smith, who are due a big contract, will be PISSSSED.
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makes for a great movie, but its simply not true. People want nice things, they want to leave wealth for their kids, go on vacations, own a home, etc. Money drives our ENTIRE SOCIETY. You are compensated for how well you do in life i mean its not even debatable.
Ok, why is it:
The best athlete in basketball is paid the most?
The best Heart surgeon is paid the most?
The best Neurosurgeon in the world is paid the most?
The best salesmen at a company makes the most?
The best coach in the NBA gets paid the most ?
The best QB gets paid the most money? (Ok bad example, but generally speaking its true)
How good you are directly relates to your compensation.
You cannot lower wages and expect the same talent. NOT POSSIBLE. And why does someone with as little medical background as Blank, or any liberal not in the field, think they know what doctors should make?
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$200K-300K is not much when you have to incur substantial debt in order to make that sum. I certainly doubt that you had to borrow more than $120K for your college studies, and your income that you make reflects that.
You were the one who kept referring to a 10% reduction in payments in your posts in this thread.
Not sure as to why you are asking, "Why?"
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
So you're saying these doctors that are making 300k a year are just getting by for the rest of their lives because they had to borrow 120k for college? Can you show me just one example of a doctor making $2-300k who is barely getting by because he's saddled with 100k of school debt?
Why are people losing insurance?Not sure as to why you are asking, "Why?"
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