View Poll Results: Who is the situation unfair to and what are your political leanings?

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  • It is unfair to PERSON A. I lean to the political LEFT

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  • It is unfair to PERSON A. I lean to the political RIGHT

    4 57.14%
  • It is unfair to PERSON B. I lean to the political LEFT

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  • It is unfair to PERSON B. I lean to the political RIGHT

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  • I'm not sure how I feel

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Thread: What is Fair? (Taxes)

  1. #41
    Senior Member | IA Veteran Slow Motion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    [I] see what you're getting at and there is more to factor in than a simple what is and isnt fair. The bigger question is[,] what is the government doing with the taxes they collect and why is the budget so poorly managed[?]

    So you collect $1000 in taxes from the person making $10,000/yr and $5000 taxes from the person making $100,000/yr, even though the higher paid person paid more tax money, he paid a smaller % of his income. What you should be asking is this....

    [If] the government had $6000 in tax revenue, why did they spend $50,000? what did they spend $50,000 on? was spending $50,000 really necessary?

    "[No] taxation without representation".... [W]hether you pay 1% of your income or 50% of your income, your tax money is being wasted by an incompetent government. Rather than buying into this class vs class distraction, we should all recognize that we're all be screwed.
    Is Romney perfect? no. Is everything Obama does terrible? almost, but no. Romney is a step towards smaller government and less spending. Obama is a massive pole vault towards bigger government and more spending. The choice is clear.

    It's unfair to person A and B, theyre both having their money wasted.

    Bruh, I agreed with everything in bold. I would have called you "Plato" if you only left out the "Romney vs Obama" stuff. (SN: Only because it distracts us from the profound words of wisdom you spoke, and drifts back into political views.) We should definitely question the government as a whole and ask WTF?


    Shits real out here. You betta keep a strap and learn somethin'
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  2. #42
    magical negro/photog .blank cd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    I know you werent addressing me but I will interject anyways.


    Obama is a socialist when dealing with individuals, and an fascist when dealing with business.

    He believes the govt should only allow you to have a certain amount of money an anything else you get should be spread around. This is his socialist side.

    His fascist side is simple. He believes in private ownership of business, but he believes it is the govts job to dictate what their profits should be, what products are brought to market, and how and where they are allowed to produce their products.
    He said this? Or is this your opinion? Can you link me to where he's put this in practice?

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  3. #43
    Moderator BanginJimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    He said this? Or is this your opinion? Can you link me to where he's put this in practice?
    His socialist side:

    He told Joe the Plumber we needed to spread the wealth around.
    Obama-Spread the wealth around - YouTube

    "I believe in redistribution"
    Obama In 1998: "I Actually Believe In Redistribution" - YouTube


    The fascist side:
    1. Obamacare dictates what an insurance company can profit (20% of premiums minus overhead)
    2. Told GM and Chrysler bond holders to pound sand and bypassed bankruptcy law to give the unions control of the companies. In the case of GM, he used the justice dept to remove the CEO and replace him with someone more friendly to the administration.
    3. He planned to bankrupt the coal industry while dumping billions in taxpayer money into the black hole of green energy companies.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    His socialist side:

    He told Joe the Plumber we needed to spread the wealth around.
    Obama-Spread the wealth around - YouTube

    "I believe in redistribution"
    Obama In 1998: "I Actually Believe In Redistribution" - YouTube
    Redistribution is an aspect of socialism but it is not synonymous. A progressive tax structure is redistribution but I doubt you would accuse all the proponents of it socialists. The fact is many people use "Socialist" as a scare tactic or insult because ignorant people believe in this false dichotomy between capitalism and socialism when our society is very much based on elements of both. Unless you are one of the most die hard libertarians, you probably support many social constructs we currently enjoy.

  5. #45
    Moderator BanginJimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bu villain View Post
    Redistribution is an aspect of socialism but it is not synonymous. A progressive tax structure is redistribution but I doubt you would accuse all the proponents of it socialists. The fact is many people use "Socialist" as a scare tactic or insult because ignorant people believe in this false dichotomy between capitalism and socialism when our society is very much based on elements of both. Unless you are one of the most die hard libertarians, you probably support many social constructs we currently enjoy.
    Is this saying you agree with me? That Obama's policy towards individuals is socialist. Since you didnt comment on the fascist side, I assume you agree with that also?


    What is a good example of redistribution of wealth in an economic system other than socialism and communism? I dont know of one.


    A progressive income tax is not redistribution until you start getting into negative liabilities. Yes, we have that. No, it isnt right.


    People do use socialist as a scare tactic, but in the case of Obama, it is justified for some of his initiatives.

  6. #46
    magical negro/photog .blank cd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    People do use socialist as a scare tactic, but in the case of Obama, it is justified for some of his initiatives.
    Equating the initiatives of a sitting president to an evil übernationalist regime to systematically sway uneducated voters is justified? Why? And why is this the GOP narrative?

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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    Is this saying you agree with me? That Obama's policy towards individuals is socialist. Since you didnt comment on the fascist side, I assume you agree with that also?
    I do agree that Obama has some policies that are socialist in nature but I don't agree that all his policies are of that nature. Certainly not enough to label him overall as a socialist. I would argue that just about every politician from either party agrees with a number of socialist constructs. I didn't comment on the facism side because I think the socialism debate is more interesting and the conversation is already splintering enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    What is a good example of redistribution of wealth in an economic system other than socialism and communism? I dont know of one.
    As I stated, our current progressive tax system is a form of redistribution. Surely you agree not everyone pays and benefits proportionally which is by definition redistribution. The child tax credit is redistribution to parents. The mortgage tax credit is redistribution to home owners. Do you consider us to live in a socialist or communist state?


    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    A progressive income tax is not redistribution until you start getting into negative liabilities. Yes, we have that. No, it isnt right.
    Why do you need to get into negative liabilities to consider it redistribution? Not to mention we already have an income tax system that results in negative liabilities anyways so there is really no point in having that argument. And we aren't talking about right or wrong (that is up to an individual to decide), we are talking about the definition of words, specifically redistribution and socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    People do use socialist as a scare tactic, but in the case of Obama, it is justified for some of his initiatives.
    I don't disagree that some of his policies are more socialistic in nature but to call him a socialist in order to frighten people is a disgraceful exageration. If you aren't prepared to recognize police, firemen, etc as socialist institutions then you shouldn't be using that label as a political tactic. Take Obamacare for example. If Obamacare is socialist, then what is a single payer system? By using extreme terminology, you ignore the degrees inbetween and render the term almost meaningless.

  8. #48
    Moderator BanginJimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bu villain View Post
    I don't disagree that some of his policies are more socialistic in nature but to call him a socialist in order to frighten people is a disgraceful exageration.
    Every politician in the country uses exaggeration and some, like the president simply lie when the truth isnt what they want the idiot voters to know.

    4 Pinocchios for Obama’s newest anti-Romney ad - The Washington Post

    That was an OFA ad approved by Obama and so full of blatant lies even the Wash Post cant cover it up.




    Quote Originally Posted by bu villain View Post
    If you aren't prepared to recognize police, firemen, etc as socialist institutions then you shouldn't be using that label as a political tactic.
    Do you even know what socialism is?
    Socialism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

    Please point out the portion of the definition that includes govt services. When you cant, you can sit here and admit that fire and police are not socialist.





    Quote Originally Posted by bu villain View Post
    Take Obamacare for example. If Obamacare is socialist, then what is a single payer system? By using extreme terminology, you ignore the degrees inbetween and render the term almost meaningless.
    Obamacare has a few instances of socialism and MANY examples of fascism.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    Every politician in the country uses exaggeration and some, like the president simply lie when the truth isnt what they want the idiot voters to know.
    Saying both sides do it is not a valid defense in my book. Obama has done some fucked up shit in my book but I won't excuse him because Bush did some similar dirt.

    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    Do you even know what socialism is?
    Socialism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

    Please point out the portion of the definition that includes govt services. When you cant, you can sit here and admit that fire and police are not socialist.
    The first definition - "any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods". The government/people collectively own the police and fire departments, administer them, and they distributes those services to the people.

    My real question to you here is... Is every conceivable socialist program inherently bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    Obamacare has a few instances of socialism and MANY examples of fascism.
    I already agreed Obama has some socialistic elements. Do you say Obamacare is a socialist program? If so, how would you describe a single payer system that would differentiate it from Obamacare?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by bu villain View Post
    The first definition - "any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods". The government/people collectively own the police and fire departments, administer them, and they distributes those services to the people.
    If this is the definition you want to use then so be it. I guess you think fires and crime are the production they control.


    Quote Originally Posted by bu villain View Post
    My real question to you here is... Is every conceivable socialist program inherently bad?

    Bad in intentions or bad as in poorly run and managed.

    I cant think of a single socialist society that isnt poorly run.

    Quote Originally Posted by bu villain View Post
    I already agreed Obama has some socialistic elements. Do you say Obamacare is a socialist program? If so, how would you describe a single payer system that would differentiate it from Obamacare?
    If I had to pick I would say fascist.

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    If this is the definition you want to use then so be it. I guess you think fires and crime are the production they control.
    No it is the service of law enforcement and fire control/rescue they control. If you want to argue that providing essential services is meaningfully different than production of a physical product that's up to you but we are getting further from the central argument which is still:

    The government collects revenue unequally from the citizens and redistributes that money unequally in various ways (e.g., tax cuts, government services, social programs etc). That alone is not enough to label the people who advocate such initiatives as socialists. Both sides of the isle support redistribution, only in different configurations and yet neither side are socialist as they both largely advocate private markets.

    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    Bad in intentions or bad as in poorly run and managed.

    I cant think of a single socialist society that isnt poorly run.
    I'm not advocating a completely socialist society, far from it. As I said before, there are more than two choices. I feel our democracy is poorly run (despite it being run better than most) but that doesn't mean there is no merit in democracy and capitalism. Instead of looking at it in a such a black and white way, I want to take the best ideas from many different ideologies.


    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    If I had to pick I would say fascist.
    Then you have a completely exagerated view of what is fascist. Most first-world countries have some sort of single payer system. To label that as fascist is farcicle. Unless you are arguing the representative governments of all these countries are shams, the laws they pass, by definition, can't be fascist as the primary feature of facism is that it is dictatorial not representative.

  12. #52
    Supra Equipped WhiteAccord's Avatar
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    9-9-9 Tax is fair and for the government spending less than what they consume is fair.

    End Thread

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by bu villain View Post
    Most first-world countries have some sort of single payer system. To label that as fascist is farcicle.
    Single payer is the perfect definition of socialist.



    Quote Originally Posted by bu villain View Post
    Unless you are arguing the representative governments of all these countries are shams, the laws they pass, by definition, can't be fascist as the primary feature of facism is that it is dictatorial not representative.
    I guess I wasnt clear. Obamacare is a rooted in fascism. Privately owned companies with complete govt control.

    I did make it clear that I only though Obama was fascist on his economic issues.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    Single payer is the perfect definition of socialist.
    I agree but that's not what you said before. You said Obamacare was socialist and single payer was fascist.

    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    I guess I wasnt clear. Obamacare is a rooted in fascism. Privately owned companies with complete govt control.

    I did make it clear that I only though Obama was fascist on his economic issues.
    Still not facism. Government control is not fascist when the government is elected by the people.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bu villain View Post
    I agree but that's not what you said before. You said Obamacare was socialist and single payer was fascist.
    If I did, I was backwards. Obamacare is fascist, single payer is socialist.



    Quote Originally Posted by bu villain View Post
    Still not facism. Government control is not fascist when the government is elected by the people.
    And again. Obama's economic philosophy is rooted in fascism. I understand that we are not a fascist country.

    Obama is stretching a bit towards supreme power though.

    First is was the Black Panthers and simply ignoring voter suppression and intimidation.
    Then it was sidestepping bankruptcy law for the UAW.
    Then is was ordering the justice dept to ignore federal immigration laws, in effect, offering amnesty without congressional approval
    Then it was sidestepping Congress in welfare work requirements.
    Now Obama is offering to pay legal bills and judgements to defense contractors if they agree to violate the WARN Act.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    Obama is stretching a bit towards supreme power though.

    First is was the Black Panthers and simply ignoring voter suppression and intimidation.
    Then it was sidestepping bankruptcy law for the UAW.
    Then is was ordering the justice dept to ignore federal immigration laws, in effect, offering amnesty without congressional approval
    Then it was sidestepping Congress in welfare work requirements.
    Now Obama is offering to pay legal bills and judgements to defense contractors if they agree to violate the WARN Act.
    You forgot the worst one of all in my opinion: The ordered killing of American citizens without trial. This is one of the main reasons I will probably vote for Johnson. I still do not believe facism is the proper word to describe our ongoing expansion of executive power as it will roll back as soon as we stop voting for people who want to expand it.

  17. #57
    Moderator BanginJimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bu villain View Post
    You forgot the worst one of all in my opinion: The ordered killing of American citizens without trial. This is one of the main reasons I will probably vote for Johnson. I still do not believe facism is the proper word to describe our ongoing expansion of executive power as it will roll back as soon as we stop voting for people who want to expand it.
    I dont care if it is an American citizen if they are outside of the US.

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

  18. #58
    Slowest Car on IA David88vert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    I dont care if it is an American citizen if they are outside of the US.

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
    You should care. American citizens have rights which still must be recognized by our government anywhere in the world.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by David88vert View Post
    You should care. American citizens have rights which still must be recognized by our government anywhere in the world.
    I understand completely. Maybe a better way to handle this would be a hearing before a federal judge to legally declare him a n enemy combatant. I just don't agree with full Constitutional protections for a combatant operating overseas.

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

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