Jesus thread...

[Sinfix_15]

You got a source for that? Also, where did Jesus ever "stand up" against the oppressive government? He commanded them to submit to their leaders and pay the due taxes. What He did do is "stand up" to the political religious leaders. This "Christian" movement is by far the most significant in history. Is it just coincidence that He appeared during the "perfect" setting in history. The Romans probably began to lose faith in their gods because the relationship was one sided. Paul came to preach the "un named" god whom they worshipped. A God with whom they could know on a personal level. There is also a difference between talking about something I.e. Mayans, Greek gods, ect...and having a following of 2.18 billion devout believers. Christianity is not fading away and neither is Jesus. In fact in 1910 there were some 600 million believers, in 2010 there were 2.18 billion. Today it is roughly 2.3 billion and the largest religion in the world. No other event in history can claim that after 2000 years, the event still has such a strong filling. According to the numbers, Jesus the Christ was the most influential man in our history. Can you really try to rationalize that so many would follow a mad man or liar?

Let me rephrase, Jesus didnt "stand up" to the government in a sense that he fought them or anything. He was an opposing idea to an oppressing government. He was something to believe in for people who desperately needed something to believe in. Rome can take credit for the lore growing, if they didnt make it a big deal, it probably would have never been a big deal. Jesus is not an uncommon name. Being named Jesus would be like being named John. Being crucified was not something exclusive to Jesus Christ. Many people were crucified. If Jesus' was more "special" than others, it was probably a combination of him having a following and they felt the need to make an example of him and that he probably refused any "plea deals" offered by Rome and angered them.

Whether or not you want to believe a story can greatly change how it gets told. If Tim Tebow played football in 200BC before ESPN and twitter and the only evidence of his ability was the news spread by word of mouth from fans......

we'd be sitting here today talking about how Tim Tebow split the dead sea with a stiff arm and him diving for a touch down is what broke up the continents. The ice age that killed the dinosaurs was God icing Tebow's knees after a game.

Also, the argument that "people still believe in Jesus after 2000 years" doesnt validate it either. Christianity is not the lone standing religion. So obviously, people still believe in other deities as well, even though theyre aware of Jesus. Does "staying power" validate other religions?

[Elbow]

What exactly is the argument here? lol

[geoff]

Got milk: history will show us that a movement this large does not get inspired by a lunitic or liar. I believe everything Jesus said. I believe He is Divine. I believe He was/is God wrapped in flesh, an image of God and the evidence of God that people wanted. I also am not in a mental institution. Why does it "piss you off" as to what I believe? You can go on believing He was a good man and a preacher, it's no skin off my back. I am stating my own personal beliefs(which happen to be shared by 2.3 billion others). You can choose to deny His Divinity, but only a fool would deny that this man, whether God or not, made a HUGE impact on history.

Sinfix: Jesus taught submission to those who had power over you. The only thing He was against was the hypocritical religious pharasee's and saducees. They preached the coming kingdom of God and to obey mosaic law and ritual. They presented themselves as "holy", yet set up a business in the temple. Sounds kinda like the "church" today huh? The apostle Paul wrote that the Christ walked among them, and they knew Him not. The reason Jesus was so popular was for the simple reason that He was the fulfillment of a 1000 year old prophecy. A promise that God Himself would be with man on earth. He was the Messiah, the promise of salvation to the Jews. Yet, despite the number of His followers, He was still crucified...why? Because the High Priests in charge of the Jews believed the Messiah would free His people from oppression and establish a new Jewish kingdom. But they missed out, the promised Kingdom of God was not to be a physical one. It was a spiritual kingdom. Jesus did not bring salvation from the Romans, but salvation from sin. For the first time ever, the people could know God as a personal God. To not have to sacrifice animals to cover sin, but to have Christ be the sacrifice for absolute forgiveness of sin. The Pharasee's crucified Jesus, not the Romans. He was murdered because He didnt fit the Jewish interpretation of the Christ. He called them out on their hypocrisy and their false rituals. Therefore, they sought to silence Him. Little did they know, He was meant to be crucified as the ultimate and final sacrifice for sin. Rome was not the reason Christianity grew. Revival started in the places Jesus walked, talked, and performed miracles. He endowed the apostles with the same abilities and from that and eye witness accounts...Christianity spread like wildfire, first to the Jew then the gentile.

I'm sure Jesus was a popular name. I'm sure others were crucified. But none left the legacy He did, none claimed or taught what He did, none gave themselves up to die for humanity. Say what you will brother, but in 3 1/2 years, Jesus accomplished the greatest revival in history. One that no man has done or could do again. You choose to believe He was a good man that died and that's fine. For me, He is my own personal God, my Friend, my Father, my Savior and my Lord. Best of all; I know Him by name, by experience, and by things which surpass understanding and the natural world. I know what God has done for me and with me. Atheists mock Christians for believinibg something without proof, yet they have never actually seen evolution happen. Don't believe me, check out the article below for an unbiased non Christian report...

Science Literature - Experimental Evolution in Fruit Flies

[.blank cd]

Atheists mock Christians for believing something without proof, yet they have never actually seen evolution happen. Don't believe me, check out the article below for an unbiased non Christian report...

Science Literature - Experimental Evolution in Fruit Flies

LOL. Here we go. Still believe evolution is a myth huh? FYI, that article doesn't say anything about not being able to observe evolution. Evolution has been observed many times.

[.blank cd]

Rome can take credit for the lore growing, if they didnt make it a big deal, it probably would have never been a big deal.

This. That's what history tells us anyway.

Jesus is not an uncommon name. Being named Jesus would be like being named John

His name really wasnt "Jesus".

[Got Milk?]

Got milk: history will show us that a movement this large does not get inspired by a lunitic or liar. I believe everything Jesus said. I believe He is Divine. I believe He was/is God wrapped in flesh, an image of God and the evidence of God that people wanted. I also am not in a mental institution. Why does it "piss you off" as to what I believe? You can go on believing He was a good man and a preacher, it's no skin off my back. I am stating my own personal beliefs(which happen to be shared by 2.3 billion others). You can choose to deny His Divinity, but only a fool would deny that this man, whether God or not, made a HUGE impact on history.

Sinfix: Jesus taught submission to those who had power over you. The only thing He was against was the hypocritical religious pharasee's and saducees. They preached the coming kingdom of God and to obey mosaic law and ritual. They presented themselves as "holy", yet set up a business in the temple. Sounds kinda like the "church" today huh? The apostle Paul wrote that the Christ walked among them, and they knew Him not. The reason Jesus was so popular was for the simple reason that He was the fulfillment of a 1000 year old prophecy. A promise that God Himself would be with man on earth. He was the Messiah, the promise of salvation to the Jews. Yet, despite the number of His followers, He was still crucified...why? Because the High Priests in charge of the Jews believed the Messiah would free His people from oppression and establish a new Jewish kingdom. But they missed out, the promised Kingdom of God was not to be a physical one. It was a spiritual kingdom. Jesus did not bring salvation from the Romans, but salvation from sin. For the first time ever, the people could know God as a personal God. To not have to sacrifice animals to cover sin, but to have Christ be the sacrifice for absolute forgiveness of sin. The Pharasee's crucified Jesus, not the Romans. He was murdered because He didnt fit the Jewish interpretation of the Christ. He called them out on their hypocrisy and their false rituals. Therefore, they sought to silence Him. Little did they know, He was meant to be crucified as the ultimate and final sacrifice for sin. Rome was not the reason Christianity grew. Revival started in the places Jesus walked, talked, and performed miracles. He endowed the apostles with the same abilities and from that and eye witness accounts...Christianity spread like wildfire, first to the Jew then the gentile.

I'm sure Jesus was a popular name. I'm sure others were crucified. But none left the legacy He did, none claimed or taught what He did, none gave themselves up to die for humanity. Say what you will brother, but in 3 1/2 years, Jesus accomplished the greatest revival in history. One that no man has done or could do again. You choose to believe He was a good man that died and that's fine. For me, He is my own personal God, my Friend, my Father, my Savior and my Lord. Best of all; I know Him by name, by experience, and by things which surpass understanding and the natural world. I know what God has done for me and with me. Atheists mock Christians for believinibg something without proof, yet they have never actually seen evolution happen. Don't believe me, check out the article below for an unbiased non Christian report...

Science Literature - Experimental Evolution in Fruit Flies

So you believe in:

Jesus walked on water? Really...

That his killing was a sacrifice in order that we might be forgiven for the sins of Eve, the first woman in the world, who lived way before his time, a magical garden, where a talking snake convinced her to eat a forbidden apple. Really...

If your rape a women, and you take her virginity, she shall not sleep with no other man and is to marry the rapist? Really...

If your brother gets married, and has kids, if he passes away, it is your duty to marry his wife and take care of his kids.... Really...


Should I go on?

[.blank cd]

Don't forget, god put all life on the earth in their current form, from nothing.

[geoff]

Blank: I'm not sure what to call evolution. But I do know that according to that article and trying to observe evolution in bacteria; that after 600 generations of fruit flies and 40,000 generations of bacteria, that it has not been observed. Did you even read the article?

"Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles. This is notable because in wild populations we expect the strength of natural selection to be less intense and the environment unlikely to remain constant for ~600 generations. Consequently, the probability of fixation in wild populations should be even lower than its likelihood in these experiments. This suggests that selection does not readily expunge genetic variation in sexual populations, a finding which in turn should motivate efforts to discover why this is seemingly the case."

Please tell me what that "really" means according to your logic. And just what was Jesus' name then? And please show me a source that says Christianity would not have grown without Romans spreading the lore.


Got milk: yeah, I believe Jesus walked on water. There is eye witness testimony given. Why should I disregard their testimony in favor of someone who wasn't there to see it, much less even believe Jesus was real. Is there evidence to the contrary? Your understanding of scripture is seriously flawed. Jesus didn't die for the sins of Eve. He died for your sins, my sins, and anyone who was/is/or will ever be. Again your understanding of scripture shows just how much understanding you actually lack. The man who raped a woman, and she cried out, was put to death. If she did not cry out for help ( then it wasn't rape, it was fornication) then they had to marry one another. The brother married the widow and sired children do that his brothers legacy might go on. This goes more in depth but I don't expect you to understand anything of Jewish tradition or Mosaic Law. Further more, I love when atheists try to use scripture against me, just shows how little you know about what you profess is a fairy tale/lie lol.

[geoff]

Don't forget, god put all life on the earth in their current form, from nothing.

No nature for no reason created nothing by chance which became life soup that sprouted legs and then became trees, rocks, monkeys, dinasaurs, and then humans. A theory that goes against the very laws of physics that govern evolution. Yeah, that makes sense, the 1:10000000000000000000000 chance that we are here for no apparent reason or cause...

[.blank cd]

Blank: I'm not sure what to call evolution. But I do know that according to that article and trying to observe evolution in bacteria; that after 600 generations of fruit flies and 40,000 generations of bacteria, that it has not been observed. Did you even read the article?

Yes I read it. Did you read it? Moreover, did you understand what it's telling us?

Please tell me what that "really" means according to your logic.

According to the bible his name wasn't Jesus. You should know what it is.

And please show me a source that says Christianity would not have grown without Romans spreading the lore.

Scholars suggest Christianity spread due to a Roman influence. Do you not know this?

yeah, I believe Jesus walked on water. There is eye witness testimony given.

Eyewitness testimony of someone defying the laws of physics? And you seriously believe that? This is why you can't take evangelicals seriously, because their belief system is not grounded in reality.

[.blank cd]

No nature for no reason created nothing by chance which became life soup that sprouted legs and then became trees, rocks, monkeys, dinasaurs, and then humans. A theory that goes against the very laws of physics that govern evolution. Yeah, that makes sense, the 1:10000000000000000000000 chance that we are here for no apparent reason or cause...

So you do not understand the theory of modern evolutionary synthesis, because zero scientists think it goes against the laws of physics at all. None of what you said is anywhere near the current scientific theory of evolution. Sorry.

[geoff]

And this article below:
Thou Shalt Not Put Evolutionary Theory to a Test - Evolution News & Views

I've asked this before and will ask again. What qualifies one researchers study and findings as true and another's as false? Why take ones word over the other? Any time some complication arises with evolution, atheists look for a scape goat I.e. " the question shouldn't be can x turn into y, it should be, can x turn into anything else? Is that how science works? You start out with a belief and then when complications arise, you tweak it and say " there ya go, this should work now". Evolution has not been observed in a lab during experimentation.

Here is a link to show how the scientific method works:
Scientific Method - The four steps of the scientific method.
With evolution not being able to be observed during experimentation, how than can it be a scientific fact or theory? Let's call it what it really is, a hypothesi.

[.blank cd]

And this article below:
Thou Shalt Not Put Evolutionary Theory to a Test - Evolution News & Views

I've asked this before and will ask again. What qualifies one researchers study and findings as true and another's as false? Why take ones word over the other? Any time some complication arises with evolution, atheists look for a scape goat I.e. " the question shouldn't be can x turn into y, it should be, can x turn into anything else? Is that how science works? You start out with a belief and then when complications arise, you tweak it and say " there ya go, this should work now". Evolution has not been observed in a lab during experimentation.

Here is a link to show how the scientific method works:
Scientific Method - The four steps of the scientific method.
With evolution not being able to be observed during experimentation, how than can it be a scientific fact or theory? Let's call it what it really is, a hypothesi.

I know full well what the scientific method is. Evolution is no longer a hypothesis, but a testable fact and theory. Just because YOU don't understand how it works doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Lol

[.blank cd]

Geoff, can we see your research you've conducted to disprove evolution? If you have some, you need to get it peer reviewed so you can go collect your Nobel Prize.

[quickdodge®]

Got milk: yeah, I believe Jesus walked on water. There is eye witness testimony given. Why should I disregard their testimony in favor of someone who wasn't there to see it...

Lolol. "Eye witnesses?" From 2,000, give or take, years ago? So there's no way this story could have been altered or exaggerated just a bit? You've never heard of fish stories? Where an event starts off one way and is a completely different occasion by the time it gets back to the original author? Later, QD.

[geoff]

QD: it could have, if it wasn't written down. So, no. I still have a simple question...does anyone here deny that Jesus and His message was the most influential and greatest event in history?

Blank: I will get back to you. You gave me a lot to respond too, give me some time.

[quickdodge®]

QD: it could have, if it wasn't written down. So, no.

That's funny, man. Lolol. So it was written down so it's true? Wow, dude. I'm not trying to insult your intelligence, but do you really believe that (what you just said)? If I wrote down that I jumped into Mt. St. Helen's during it's eruption in 1980 and landed with the ashes here in Georgia, would that be something you could believe happened as well? I mean, I did write it down so it has to be true, yes?

I still have a simple question...does anyone here deny that Jesus and His message was the most influential and greatest event in history?

I believe that the messages from the 10 Commandments are mostly certainly words to live by. I think they are a set of the most influential words to anyone's life. I believe it could be looked at as most influential as it provides a healthy foundation to live your life by. And I don't meant that from a religious standpoint. I mean that as a human being standpoint. As far as the "greatest events" thing? No because it's not known to have actually happened. If that stuff really happened, then probably yes. But as far as factual history and greatest events goes, I'd have to list the Wright Brothers, Thomas Edison, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Graham Bell, etc. as providing some of the greatest events in history. Later, QD.

[geoff]

QD: re read what you said. You talked about the story of Jesus as being like the telephone game, a simple oral tradition. But, this is not the case. Eye witnesses and those that were alive experiencing the "Jesus" movement wrote down what they saw/ heard. Without being able to travel back in time or study the body of Jesus, all one can go on us historical documentation. I will provide you that list again below. Sure the 10 commandments are great, but we are talking about the man Jesus, of whom there does exist historical documentation of His life. One can choose to "chalk" up the documents as false or misleading, but that can be said about many historical figures. I addressed this in an earlier post. I find it ironic that people will do readily believe in evolution despite the fact that it has not been observed in a lab how the theory describes it. Yet, when presented with historical documentation, they choose to ignore it. 200 years from now, will anyone believe that blacks once had unequal rights or that the holocaust happened? How does one choose what history to accept and what history to describe. It is safe to say beyond reasonable doubt that the man Jesus existed and did something great that inspired 2.3 billion people to believe Him and His message 2000 years ago. I can not force you to accept simple truths.

List on page 2 post #26 of this thread.

Also, if you had thousands of eye witness see you do that incredible feat and then had 20 or so of them write about it; I would believe yet be skeptical.

[quickdodge®]

QD: re read what you said.

There is nothing to reread. I'm fully aware of what I posted, sir. I didn't say anything about a "telephone game." I was talking about word of mouth. How do you honestly know that there were witnesses? How do you honestly know that this story is completely accurate with zero flaws. You don't. You believe. That's my only "issue" with you, dude. You present everything as fact when it isn't. Some of it? Maybe. All of it? Not hardly.

Also, I didn't chalk up anything as false or anything like that. I simply said religion or not, the 10 Commandments are an excellent set of "rules" to live by. As for the other historical figures also having a chance to be falsely represented, you may be right. I think, though, that you're bringing them to the table to have some sort of rebuttal to the debate. See these other historical figures aren't known for any "magic" feats or the like. They are people who have been credited with discovering things, with being wartime heros, etc. You know yourself you're just flinging things in the pot when you bring in racial inequalities as being questioned 200 years from now. For that, we have actual video documentation. For the 20th century, history has an advantage whereas documentation can be a lot more conclusive. Yes I know that we have a program called Photoshop, but if the source is credible, then there's not much to discredit.

Also, who said Jesus never existed? Why is this even relevant?

Also, if you had thousands of eye witness see you do that incredible feat and then had 20 or so of them write about it; I would believe yet be skeptical.

Yet you're not skeptical of Jesus' walking on water and rising from the dead? Talk about picking and choosing what history to believe or not. Later, QD.

[.blank cd]

I addressed this in an earlier post. I find it ironic that people will do readily believe in evolution despite the fact that it has not been observed in a lab how the theory describes it.

False, not a fact.

Also, if you had thousands of eye witness see you do that incredible feat and then had 20 or so of them write about it; I would believe yet be skeptical.

You would believe he defied the laws of phyisics if 20 people wrote it down? You are naive and gullible

[Got Milk?]

I was going to respond with a very detailed post, but I see QD beat me to it. But then I also realized, I'm trying to argue a point with a person who believes what was "witnessed" over two thousand years ago, and actually believes it with no doubt. They should make a commercial out of you.

False, not a fact.

You would believe he defied the laws of phyisics if 20 people wrote it down? You are naive and gullible

What are you trying to say lad.. Chris Angels did it on numerous occasions. Numerous witnesses, numerous recordings, numerous followers....

[.blank cd]

I was going to respond with a very detailed post, but I see QD beat me to it. But then I also realized, I'm trying to argue a point with a person who believes what was "witnessed" over two thousand years ago, and actually believes it with no doubt. They should make a commercial out of you.

Thats what Im tryin to say. You cant reason with someone who's belief system isnt grounded in reality. Its impossible.

[geoff]

QD: How do you know the story is not 100% accurate? How do you know there were not eye witnesses? I gave you a list of historical documents the corroborate the story, beyond that I can do know more to convince you. We do not know 100% of every historical figure or account was portrayed as 100% accurate. We find documentation to corroborate the historical figures/events and then assume them to be accurate and true. There is no difference in the process of studying biblical events or figures. The claim which a person or event makes should not be the determining factor as to the authenticity of an event/figure. Hell, people believe the big bang occurred yet what solid evidence is there that there was once nothing and then matter appeared and exploded to eventually create all life. With out living eye witness account/picture/or video are we not taking everything historical to be completely accurate on faith? No I am not skeptical of Jesus walking on water or raising the dead; I take that on faith, simply because I know the personal experiences I've had with God that would be considered by science a "miracle". It seems to me that when it comes to historical evidence, one's own personal bias becomes a factor. What exactly makes the sources to the evidence of Jesus and His miracles not credible? If you have some information that shows they lied, I would love to see it.

[.blank cd]

What are you trying to say lad.. Chris Angels did it on numerous occasions. Numerous witnesses, numerous recordings, numerous followers....

This is true, this is true

[geoff]

Blank and got milk: what exactly makes your beliefs grounded in reality? I present to you evidence that evolution has not been observed in a lab and now the Darwinian model is being seen as insufficient yet you dismiss it. I provide for you historical evidence of Jesus and His miracles, yet again you dismiss it. You yourselves are no biologists, nor geneticists, nor scientists but rather read the words of other men and take it as truth. Have either of you seen evolution take place in a lab? Have either of you visited the beginning of time to witness the big bang or life form by chance? Have either of you published a paper on evolution, the origin of species, or any other scientific paper? No. You simply take it on faith. How dare you question my perception of reality when you yourselves can not provide evidence that is contrary to my beliefs. You can't even quote what I follow accurately nor tell me what one single message of what I believe is. Show me something interesting and worth while. Don't sit there like a 2 year old and point your finger at me saying I'm wrong and stupid and then not even have a minutely intelligent response. You will not convince me to believe other wise when you use immature come backs, vague shrouds of what appears to be evidence, and simple remarks that my little cousin could make. Get serious man, you think yourself so high and mighty that there is no flaw in your logic? You make me laugh. I have presented my argument and evidence. I have displayed my argument with intelligence and firm debate. Until you learn to have a debate like a grown up, I will no longer respond to you like one. You dodge my questions and don't acknowledge the evidence I provide. Keep using the Bill Mayer/Richard Dawkins approach...but don't expect to be taken seriously. Atheists really amuse me with their tactics and at the same time I pity you; living life with no purpose and no hope.

[geoff]

Any shroud of intelligence is welcomed, but I have yet to see that from got milk or blank. QD, the jury is still out on you. Blank, I'm not surprised with you, every thread I see you post in is filled with stubbornness and pig headedness. Not surprising so many people are frustrAted by you...like a blind man refusing to believe the sky is blue or tomatoes are red. Good Lord man, how do you live day by day. I will have to take a break from this, I think I'm forming a tumor from trying to understand the ignorance here. Take care.

[dc5-rsx]

Lot of white guys from this part of the world?

No it wasn't. So you would consider a naturally brown skin person white? Name a white man from the middle east. Don't say jesus, cause no one know's what color he truly is.

I doubt anyone really knows what color jesus was. Or that it even matters.

Sent From My Omega Red Galaxy S2

[.blank cd]

Blank and got milk: what exactly makes your beliefs grounded in reality? I present to you evidence that evolution has not been observed in a lab and now the Darwinian model is being seen as insufficient yet you dismiss it. I provide for you historical evidence of Jesus and His miracles, yet again you dismiss it.

Im grounded in reality because I dont believe in fairy tales. You havent presented any evidence that disproves an OLDER Darwinian evolution model. I dismiss miracles when they defy the laws of physics. Jesus didnt physically walk on water.

You yourselves are no biologists, nor geneticists, nor scientists but rather read the words of other men and take it as truth. Have either of you seen evolution take place in a lab? Have either of you visited the beginning of time to witness the big bang or life form by chance? Have either of you published a paper on evolution, the origin of species, or any other scientific paper? No. You simply take it on faith.

You have no idea what my qualifications are, nor does scientific understanding require you to be a biologist or geneticist. Science is not in any sense a faith-based belief, the same way math isnt a faith based belief.

I have presented my argument and evidence. I have displayed my argument with intelligence and firm debate. Until you learn to have a debate like a grown up, I will no longer respond to you like one. You dodge my questions and don't acknowledge the evidence I provide.

Bring me some scientific evidence that disproves modern evolutionary synthesis, and I'll acknowledge it. Since it doesnt exist, I dont think that will happen. You'll just keep pushing that anti-science creation garbage.[/QUOTE]

[.blank cd]

Any shroud of intelligence is welcomed, but I have yet to see that from got milk or blank. QD, the jury is still out on you. Blank, I'm not surprised with you, every thread I see you post in is filled with stubbornness and pig headedness. Not surprising so many people are frustrAted by you...like a blind man refusing to believe the sky is blue or tomatoes are red. Good Lord man, how do you live day by day. I will have to take a break from this, I think I'm forming a tumor from trying to understand the ignorance here. Take care.

This isnt saying much coming from you. I dont expect someone who doesnt know what intelligence is to recognize it when its forced down his throat.

No it wasn't. So you would consider a naturally brown skin person white? Name a white man from the middle east. Don't say jesus, cause no one know's what color he truly is.

I doubt anyone really knows what color jesus was. Or that it even matters.

Sent From My Omega Red Galaxy S2

Jesus was an Isrealite, his parents were Isrealites, their parents were Isrealites. We can pretty much assume he doesnt have blonde hair and blue eyes.

[ahabion]

Science is not in any sense a faith-based belief, the same way math isnt a faith based belief.

He's right. It's not faith based. It's assumed true until the next idea comes along to debunk the original. Truth is relative in science. Math on the other hand is made of absolutes.

[quickdodge®]

QD: How do you know the story is not 100% accurate? How do you know there were not eye witnesses? I gave you a list of historical documents the corroborate the story, beyond that I can do know more to convince you. We do not know 100% of every historical figure or account was portrayed as 100% accurate. We find documentation to corroborate the historical figures/events and then assume them to be accurate and true.

I never said the story is not accurate. I just have a hard time believing it to be true as with a lot of the stories/events of the Bible. And I surely never said anything about there not being witnesses. I laughed at the eye witness comment because you're taking the word of people that "saw" this from over 2,000 years ago as gospel (well, as a "Christian," you're supposed to). The way to debunk your argument about historical figures outside of the Bible possibly being inaccurate is easy. The non-Bible historical figures aren't claiming a "magical" event. The light bulb? We know it was invented. The television? Same. Discovery of the US? Again the same. Christopher Columbus wasn't in the middle of the ocean when land appeared before him out of thin air. That's hardly relatable to a man claiming to come back from the dead or from a man claiming to walk across water. Again, you're trying to justify these magical claims with claims that we do know actually happened.

The claim which a person or event makes should not be the determining factor as to the authenticity of an event/figure.

What?!?!? The claims people make have EVERYTHING to do with authenticity. If I were to walk around claiming I floated across the entire continent in ashes from a volcano, people would outcast me in a second.You go around claiming things that are impossible and you're going to be on the road to a mental institution.

Hell, people believe the big bang occurred yet what solid evidence is there that there was once nothing and then matter appeared and exploded to eventually create all life. With out living eye witness account/picture/or video are we not taking everything historical to be completely accurate on faith? No I am not skeptical of Jesus walking on water or raising the dead; I take that on faith, simply because I know the personal experiences I've had with God that would be considered by science a "miracle". It seems to me that when it comes to historical evidence, one's own personal bias becomes a factor. What exactly makes the sources to the evidence of Jesus and His miracles not credible? If you have some information that shows they lied, I would love to see it.

You're right on the Big Bang theory. But just as there may not be evidence of such a theory, there is also no evidence that God, or a god, did it either.

I provide for you historical evidence of Jesus and His miracles, yet again you dismiss it.

You have no evidence to provide except "eye witnesses."

You yourselves are no biologists, nor geneticists, nor scientists but rather read the words of other men and take it as truth. Have either of you seen evolution take place in a lab? Have either of you visited the beginning of time to witness the big bang or life form by chance?

The same questions could be asked to you, my friend. You're not a scientist, yourself. Have you visited the beginning of time to witness God creating everything we see?

QD, the jury is still out on you.

You don't have to leave the jury out. Bring it on in and call me what you want. I've yet to resort to name calling and insults (intentionally that is). I've even told you that I have no problems with you or your faith. And I'm certainly not going to try to dissuade you or anyone of their personal beliefs. Who am I to tell another what to think, do or believe? Later, QD.

[Elbow]

I don't like the whole forgiveness thing.

I've seen too many people use that as a way to act anyway they want and think they are "forgiven in the end."

I also like how anytime you ask a Christian about it, they stutter and can't really answer. Example, me speaking to a youth class teacher:

"So if someone broke into your house, raped your wife in front of you, and murdered your children, they should be forgiven and you'd accept that and forgive them?"

:blank stare:

Here's an idea, don't screw up in the first place and you have nothing to worry about. The Bible isn't a rule book, well it sort of is, but shouldn't be. Saying people won't go to heaven if they don't go to church, don't accept Jesus in their life, etc. That's all BS. I know many non church going individuals that haven't even read the Bible but believe in God, heaven, and the basics of Christianity and are good people.

I guess I'm trying to say the Bible doesn't mean anything.

[nelson9995]

I guess I'm trying to say the Bible doesn't mean anything.

Christianity and everything with it is based off the bible. How can it mean nothing?

[Elbow]

Christianity and everything with it is based off the bible. How can it mean nothing?

Because people shouldn't have to rely on stories and rules from a book to be decent human beings. Sure it MATTERS, but it shouldn't be the foundation of the religion as so many people treat it.

[Sinfix_15]

I don't like the whole forgiveness thing.

I've seen too many people use that as a way to act anyway they want and think they are "forgiven in the end."

I also like how anytime you ask a Christian about it, they stutter and can't really answer. Example, me speaking to a youth class teacher:

"So if someone broke into your house, raped your wife in front of you, and murdered your children, they should be forgiven and you'd accept that and forgive them?"

:blank stare:

Here's an idea, don't screw up in the first place and you have nothing to worry about. The Bible isn't a rule book, well it sort of is, but shouldn't be. Saying people won't go to heaven if they don't go to church, don't accept Jesus in their life, etc. That's all BS. I know many non church going individuals that haven't even read the Bible but believe in God, heaven, and the basics of Christianity and are good people.

I guess I'm trying to say the Bible doesn't mean anything.

Christian-1: Thou hast no other Gods before Me.
Satanic-1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

Christian-2: Thou dost not make to thyself a graven image... Thou dost not bow thyself to them, nor serve them
Satanic-2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.

Christian-3: Thou dost not take up the name of Jehovah thy God for a vain thing
Satanic-3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.

Christian-4: Remember the Sabbath-day to sanctify it;
Satanic-4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

Christian-5: Honour thy father and thy mother
Satanic-5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

Christian-6: Thou dost not murder.
Satanic-6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.

Christian-7: Thou dost not commit adultery.
Satanic-7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

Christian-8: Thou dost not steal.
Satanic-8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

Christian-9: Thou dost not answer against thy neighbour a false testimony.
Satanic-9. Do not harm little children.

Christian-10: Thou dost not desire... anything which [is] thy neighbour's.
Satanic-10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.

Satanic-11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.




Here's a list of the Christian commandments vs the satanic commandments. Kind of an interesting contrast. Note that the satanic commandments mention not to rape, harm children or kill animals unless to eat them.

Using this to make the point that any book can have good and bad messages. The bible has both good and bad messages and it can and has been used to do both great and terrible things.

[Sinfix_15]

Blank and got milk: what exactly makes your beliefs grounded in reality? I present to you evidence that evolution has not been observed in a lab and now the Darwinian model is being seen as insufficient yet you dismiss it. I provide for you historical evidence of Jesus and His miracles, yet again you dismiss it. You yourselves are no biologists, nor geneticists, nor scientists but rather read the words of other men and take it as truth. Have either of you seen evolution take place in a lab? Have either of you visited the beginning of time to witness the big bang or life form by chance? Have either of you published a paper on evolution, the origin of species, or any other scientific paper? No. You simply take it on faith. How dare you question my perception of reality when you yourselves can not provide evidence that is contrary to my beliefs. You can't even quote what I follow accurately nor tell me what one single message of what I believe is. Show me something interesting and worth while. Don't sit there like a 2 year old and point your finger at me saying I'm wrong and stupid and then not even have a minutely intelligent response. You will not convince me to believe other wise when you use immature come backs, vague shrouds of what appears to be evidence, and simple remarks that my little cousin could make. Get serious man, you think yourself so high and mighty that there is no flaw in your logic? You make me laugh. I have presented my argument and evidence. I have displayed my argument with intelligence and firm debate. Until you learn to have a debate like a grown up, I will no longer respond to you like one. You dodge my questions and don't acknowledge the evidence I provide. Keep using the Bill Mayer/Richard Dawkins approach...but don't expect to be taken seriously. Atheists really amuse me with their tactics and at the same time I pity you; living life with no purpose and no hope.

That is a compelling argument and you're right. I take "faith" in what i read from scientists. You take faith in what you read from the bible. The only explanation i can offer is just what i feel inside. I feel that science is at least on the path to discovering the truth, regardless of how far away they may or may not be from the truth at this point in time. When i look up at the stars, my brain instantly starts to wonder what else is out there and how we got here. When i see something strange happen, my mind wants to find a way to understand and explain it. When i hear someone say miracle, i want to understand how it happened and if it was chance, luck or can be repeated. I feel like nothing inside me gravitates in any way towards religion.

But, with that said..... i respect your side of the argument and your vigilance in standing up for it. Choosing to stand your ground when it's the unpopular thing to do and you're out numbered is admirable.

[ISAtlanta300]

Jesus was an Isrealite, his parents were Isrealites, their parents were Isrealites. We can pretty much assume he doesnt have blonde hair and blue eyes.

That's a pretty racist statement. It's like saying you 'assume' that everyone that is from Africa is black.....

[.blank cd]

That's a pretty racist statement. It's like saying you 'assume' that everyone that is from Africa is black.....

Ummm no it's not. As a matter of fact, you were the one that said black.

[bu villain]

Hell, people believe the big bang occurred yet what solid evidence is there that there was once nothing and then matter appeared and exploded to eventually create all life.

You're right on the Big Bang theory. But just as there may not be evidence of such a theory, there is also no evidence that God, or a god, did it either.

Actually he isn't right on the Big Bang theory. The Big Bang theory doesn't say the universe came from nothing. It states all the matter in the universe existed before the big bang. Furthermore there is lots of solid evidence for it. Redshifting, cosmic background radiation, composition of the universe, etc. Even with the large amounts of evidence, any true scientist will tell you there is a chance, however small, that they are wrong. Are you willing to admit the possibility that you are wrong about Christianity Geoff?

[Elbow]

Christian-1: Thou hast no other Gods before Me.
Satanic-1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

Christian-2: Thou dost not make to thyself a graven image... Thou dost not bow thyself to them, nor serve them
Satanic-2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.

Christian-3: Thou dost not take up the name of Jehovah thy God for a vain thing
Satanic-3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.

Christian-4: Remember the Sabbath-day to sanctify it;
Satanic-4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

Christian-5: Honour thy father and thy mother
Satanic-5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

Christian-6: Thou dost not murder.
Satanic-6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.

Christian-7: Thou dost not commit adultery.
Satanic-7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

Christian-8: Thou dost not steal.
Satanic-8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

Christian-9: Thou dost not answer against thy neighbour a false testimony.
Satanic-9. Do not harm little children.

Christian-10: Thou dost not desire... anything which [is] thy neighbour's.
Satanic-10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.

Satanic-11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.




Here's a list of the Christian commandments vs the satanic commandments. Kind of an interesting contrast. Note that the satanic commandments mention not to rape, harm children or kill animals unless to eat them.

Using this to make the point that any book can have good and bad messages. The bible has both good and bad messages and it can and has been used to do both great and terrible things.

Am I missing where the bible says to rape, harm children, and kill animals? lol