Can any of you guys define socialism correctly? Without using the term handout?
Can any of you guys define socialism correctly? Without using the term handout?
You want everyone to be police officers and teachers and construction workers......probably since you've never had a real job in your life anyway......got it
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Ill respond tomorrow when I have more time
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You're still making things up! I dont think anywhere in this thread I advocated everyone being a police officer or a public worker. Anywhere. I never argued that you wanted everyone to be day traders and ceo's and whatever. When you respond, can you respond with facts, without making things up, trying to attack my credibility, and without cherry-picking? Or is that something conservatives just do?Originally Posted by Vteckidd
I can, and have several times, but Webster does it better.
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2: a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
Now, can you tell me how the police andfiremen are the govt ownership or control of a means of production? How does a highway end the notion of private property?
Alright! That's good. We can both agree that this is a standard definition of socialism, so we can both take def. number one--the various economic and political theories--and agree that socialism is an all-encompassing term, just as we can agree that capitalism is also an all encompassing term. Both have a bunch of theories within them. If we can agree that there are good and bad theories in capitalism, as well as good and bad theories in socialism, is it fair to market only the good parts of capitalism and only the bad parts of socialism?
One of its theories basically says, and conservatives can agree, that socialism is pretty much taxpayer money used on government programs for the betterment of society. Healthcare is a good example that conservatives hate. Government takes taxpayers money, puts it into a big account, and now less fortunate people can get their doctors visits taken care of.
Let's expand on less fortunate for a second. Some conservatives say there's no such thing as less fortunate people. Just lazy-asses. Let's get one thing straight--you're not gonna get rid of the working class, the lazy ass people they speak of. Simple as that. And that's a fact some have yet to come to terms with. Just as you need a CEO to run a big company, you need a waiter to run a restaurant. You need someone to assemble that Ferrari, you need someone to sell it to you, and you need someone to change its oil.
So with that said. Let's expand on another taxpayer funded program. The interstate highway system. Based off the German autobahn, a brainchild of the German Reich and the Weimar republic. You pay your taxes, the govt. puts that in a big account, and they pay for roads with it. Now you and the rest of the driving population can drive across the country conveniently. This idea was implemented by a republican president by the way.
So I could go on and on about police and the taxpayer funded United States military. But hopefully I've enlightened you to at the very least look at socialism objectively, as there are good and bad theories
That'd a cute little rant and all but make the jump from taxpayer funded infrastructure and services to govt controlling the means of production?
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Last edited by BanginJimmy; 10-31-2011 at 04:32 PM.
I believe that this just comes down to a core belief of whether or not you believe you can achieve success with hard work.
Capitalism is survival of the fittest, the ability to achieve great success with hard work by being the best you can be.
Socialism doesnt believe you are capable of that, and that the only way you can truly achieve greatness is to have it given to you, provided to you, or taken from someone else because you arent smart enough or capable enough to achieve it on your own.
Capitalism is a system where the poorest of the poor, the most uneducated person, can achieve success by hard work. Look at any professional sports player , or many CEOs who came from nothing and achieved great wealth or social status , etc.
Socialism believes that the system is rigged in capitalism and isnt fair, so the govt must provide it to you.
In one instance (capitalism) you would have kanye west, Jay z, Lebron james, Michael jordan, Steve Jobs..........
In the other (socialism) by the very definition you would not.
Socialism by todays definition depends on a flawed view of the world IMO. It assumes that their are rich and wealthy to pillage in the first place. But what happens when all those people arent around? You get 1990s Russia. Where only govt officials have any real wealth. It destroys the middle class. Because once you eliminate everyone at the top, there is no reason to work to get there or stay there. Would kanye produce records if he couldnt make 12 million last year? Would A-Rod be the greatest baseball player if he couldnt make millions of dollars? Would steve jobs had invested billions if he couldnt MAKE billions?
First you have to understand that capitalism is driven by greed, want for wealth, success etc. You have to understand that in order for their to be a TOP there has to be a bottom. Not everyone can be rich, that is life. Do you agree with that?
Kinda. But see the problem is you guys dont understand the scope of the problem you are even trying to fix. all you see is "free helathcare is good!". What you dont understand is that the COST OF HEALTHCARE is 2 TRILLION DOLLARS AND CLIMBING, that is almost 4 times the cost of last years DEFENSE BUDGET. SO if you want to TAX people to pay for their healthcare..............it would be a massive increase something like 25-35% to BREAK EVEN. So why it sounds good when you say "people should have health care and it should be govt paid" you have to understand what that actually means. Who pays for it? Obviously you dont think the already "poor" should pay for it, so that leave the top income earners. I ask you this, should they provide the money for healthcare, will you be ok with NOT having a job? will you trade free healthcare for no job (because we both can agree that increasing a businesses taxes or a wealthy mans taxes 25-35% will see massive layoffs).One of its theories basically says, and conservatives can agree, that socialism is pretty much taxpayer money used on government programs for the betterment of society. Healthcare is a good example that conservatives hate. Government takes taxpayers money, puts it into a big account, and now less fortunate people can get their doctors visits taken care of.
When those layoffs happen the govt tax revenues will decrease, which means they will have to borrow more. Which leads me to my next point, SOCIAL PROGRAMS ARE UNSUSTAINABLE.
Name me 1 social program that is solvent.......you cant. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaide, Foodstamps, Welfare, etc are all INSOLVENT because they dont work. Postal Service? Bankrupt.
First of all no one said that so stop making up talking points. However i do believe that a ton of people in this country who cry foul are LAZY or they dont want to take responsibility for thier mistakes.Let's expand on less fortunate for a second. Some conservatives say there's no such thing as less fortunate people. Just lazy-asses. Let's get one thing straight--you're not gonna get rid of the working class, the lazy ass people they speak of. Simple as that. And that's a fact some have yet to come to terms with. Just as you need a CEO to run a big company, you need a waiter to run a restaurant. You need someone to assemble that Ferrari, you need someone to sell it to you, and you need someone to change its oil.
A person starts a business to make a profit. He employs people to make more profit. If the guy building the ferrari doesnt want to make $15/hr, he doesnt have to. there isnt a gun being held to his head. You can fix that through education, different trade skill, etc. If every person at wal mart quit tomorrow, wal mart would go under. But they dont , because they realize that their job payes what the rest of the market dictates. If you arent happy making $15/hr at wal mart, then its on YOU to change that, not the business, not the govt.
This is why i wonder why you have avoided the "what education level do you have, what is your job, do you have a college degree" question. Probably because that would circumvent your entire argument. Because if YOU dont possess the qualifications to be rich, then you dont DESERVE it, period. thats my point.
Great, again you dont understand the shear size of the argument. We have 15-20million people out of work or underemplpoyed. On one hand you saiy that wages are too cheap, companies are evil, etc, but on the next hand you want to make everyone a construction worker and build highways? or do you think all those jobs are going to pay $50,000 a year? What do we do once the roads are built?So with that said. Let's expand on another taxpayer funded program. The interstate highway system. Based off the German autobahn, a brainchild of the German Reich and the Weimar republic. You pay your taxes, the govt. puts that in a big account, and they pay for roads with it. Now you and the rest of the driving population can drive across the country conveniently. This idea was implemented by a republican president by the way.
You agree we arent going to hire 10 million construction workers right? The govt doesnt create jobs, not sustainable ones. Because it cant create wealth. So you spend 400 billion on construction jobs and when all that work is done, then what? youre HOPING there will be other jobs for them to get hired to, but if not, we didnt fix the problem, we bandaided it.
If construction workers are out of jobs because theres no work to do, then does it make sense to arbitrarily hire them and invent jobs that dont exist anyway? The "roads and construction" stuff is not a solution, its a talking point that wont put a dent in unemployment, and is another waste of taxpayer money. Its something that probably does need to be done, but it doesnt address the problem of our stagnate economy. Sorry. Its something we should look at doing , for infrastructure reasons, but its way down on the totem pole. Also, the STIM 1 of 800 billion was supposed to be for ROADS AND BRIDGES, what happened to all that money? oh, it was wasted , and was mainly kickbacks. Govt cant spend money efficiently, that is proven.
See you guys like to do everything one way. I say socialism doesnt work and you say "OH SO YOU HATE POLICE THEN!". No, again, you simply dont understand the argument.So I could go on and on about police and the taxpayer funded United States military. But hopefully I've enlightened you to at the very least look at socialism objectively, as there are good and bad theories
Police, Fire, Teachers, etc are all great aspects of state funded organizations (not federal). but they are volunteer. No one MAKES you be a police officer. But they are still a capitalistic part of society because they way that police/fire/teachers are funded is through the collection of state/county taxes, which come from the population living there. So an area must make it beneficial for people to live there, encourage good business environments, in order to collect revenue to pay for those services. It isnt the govt simply dictating "you must be a police officer" which is what a socialist/marxist society would do.
They are also in many cases BANKRUPT from state to state (from unions and other stuff) but many places need fed bailouts to keep their current police staff. So, EVEN if it is one of your socialist examples, it is another fact that they DONT WORK. They are not sustainable.
Also, we dont want people to be police officers and fire fighters and teachers , its nice that some people want to do that, and many of us greatly appreciate it, its a noble profession. But we cant have a country built on wanting to solely be that, we want people to generaly strive to be better, which is why MOST of those jobs DONT require a college degree
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Also here is a list of the events the city took against Occupy Oakland.......
So again, they were given warnings, they refused to respect the law and they can deal with the consequences. And thier "free speech" wasnt violated, it was their actions around their free speech that caused them to get booted out and arrested.ATTENTION DEMONSTRATORS
Date: October 20, 2011, 8:00 pm
NOTICE TO VACATE FRANK OGAWA PLAZA
The City of Oakland is committed to facilitating peaceful forms of expression and free
speech rights, and protecting personal safety and property.
From the outset of the demonstration on October 10, the City of Oakland has maintained its commitment
to facilitating the peaceful expression of First Amendment rights, balanced with the City’s equal
commitment to protecting and maintaining public safety, public health, and crowd control. While
demonstrators have a right to peaceful expression, the City has a responsibility to ensure a public health
and safety plan during such events.
During the past 10 days, City officials have provided written documentation—handed out in person and
posted on the City’s web site—outlining specific public health, safety, and crowd control issues to be
addressed by demonstrators.
We believe that after 10 days, the City can no longer uphold public health and safety. In recent days,
camp conditions and occupants’ behavior have significantly deteriorated, and it is no longer manageable
to maintain a public health and safety plan. These conditions, which have not been sufficiently addressed,
include:
�� Fire hazards: cooking with open flame, improper storage and disposal of propane tanks, storage of
grease, inadequate fire extinguishers, density of tents and flammable materials, smoking in tents, piles
of hay and wood
�� Safety hazards: increasing frequency of violence, assaults, threats and intimidation
�� Denial of access: to emergency personnel to treat injured persons and to police to patrol the Plaza
�� Sanitation hazards: public urination and defecation, litter, improper food preparation and storage
practices
�� Health hazards: existing rodent problem has been exacerbated and is endangering public health.
County vector control is unable to implement measures to control the rat population under current
conditions
�� Physical damage: graffiti, vandalism and other damage to Plaza infrastructure and the historic tree
�� Disruption of the Plaza for public use: some events for groups who have complied with City
regulations have been reprogrammed or relocated
As a result of these serious conditions, the Administration has determined that facilitating this expression
of speech is no longer viable, nor in the interest of public health and safety. Peaceful daytime assembly
will continue to be allowed between 6 am and 10 pm daily. No tents or overnight camping permitted.
response to the Injured Marine:
This is a reaction to a video of the injured Marine:
Quote:
Looks like they agree with me, go figureAdditionally, the officers in the video were stationary, behind a barricade, and it was your "peaceful" protesters that chose to advance on the police position after being told to disperse. The injured guy was dropped within 10 feet of the barricade fence and directly in front of the officers. What was he doing there? The officers were a stationary group of targets holding a line against hundreds of rioters spanning distances of hundreds of yards and with a 180 degree field of view while taking incoming projectiles. The protesters chose the actions that led to the violence in the video.
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No need for sarcasm. I'm simply saying you can't conclude "the bailouts have proven to have failed" just as someone can't conclude "they surely succeeded". The argument is mostly in the thoeretical domain so it is disengenuous to speak on such issues as if they are a matter of fact and that you know the truth while those who disagree with you are ignorant or dishonest.
I'm noticing the same pattern in almost all the arguments on this forum. Take the OWS protestors. The detractors on here won't even recognize that the protesters have even the slightest hint of a legitimate greivance. So much energy is poured into discredting their motives and perceived demands (there aren't any official demands) and absolutely no energy is put into identifying areas where we might actually be able to improve our financial and political system.
False. The bailouts have failed. if they didnt, then unemployment wouldnt be 9+% , GDP wouldnt be at .0001% growth LOL
I mean i guess it depends on what your definition of success is. If you mean it prevented the overnight collapse of our financial system and propped up BAD businesses, then yes, that is true. But i dont view that as a success. I view it as a failure of capitalism.
wrong again. the people who are protesting the horrible relationship between wallstreet and govt, who are against wall street buying votes and lobbying, i agree 10000000% with. I DISAGREE with protesting wall street over it, because its not their fault. Its Washingtons. they should be focusing on them, because that is where the policy changes need to be made.I'm noticing the same pattern in almost all the arguments on this forum. Take the OWS protestors. The detractors on here won't even recognize that the protesters have even the slightest hint of a legitimate greivance. So much energy is poured into discredting their motives and perceived demands (there aren't any official demands) and absolutely no energy is put into identifying areas where we might actually be able to improve our financial and political system.
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Going by Obama's own words it was a failure. Remember when he said that passing it would keep unemployment below 8%? Yea, we havent even seen below 9% yet and have been close to 10%. Georgia is still above 10% and rising.
I posted a list of greivences already. Remember the one that says all people should make a living wage, whether they work or not?
As far as getting the money out of politics, I agree 100%. I am a firm believer in 100% govt financed federal elections. I would even agree to an additional 1% tax on ALL forms of income to pay for it. The breakdown I would like would be simple. 47.5% goes to the RNC, 47.5% goes to the DNC, and 5% goes to independent candidates. Incumbent independents would get their money from the side of the aisle they caucus with.
This wont completely take th money out of elections because there will still be unions, trade groups, and the like that will spend money, but it would remove the direct line.
You posted an unofficial list of greivences already, yes. To this date there are still no official list of grievences, The main focus of this movement is getting money out of politics, which obviously we can all agree with.
Since there is no official list of greivences why should we just assume that the point of the whole deal is getting money put of politics? Yes, I have seen that posted regularly but I have seen a lot of other less noble issues throw around just as often. The biggest of those being immediate forgiveness of student loans and a single payer healthcare system.
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That is exactly my point. Who defined success as being unemployment under 9%? It's certainly not my definition of success. To me, the purpose of it was to prevent the collapse of the financial system which as you admit, did not collapse. So that is a success under the terms of its primary goal. Should we ever let ourselves get in that position again? No, of course not.
You don't think wallstreet (Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, Behr Sterns etc) had anything to do with the financial collapse? You don't think people should be upset by that?
Why would you go by Obama's words? Bush is the one who bailed them out with the TARP program. By the way, neither Bush nor Obama has that much control over the economy. They can't dictate unemployment rates as much as they would like to.
I responded to that list you posted. It was a list created by one guy and posted on an internet forum. He doesn't speak for everyone there. No one does.
I like your proposal. That's what the discussion should be about. Not about whether the protestors are hippies or hate rich people or whatever other bullshit distracts from the real issues.
nope. They just wrote the govt the check, the govt. didn't have to take it. Lol
I can see you are starting to understand. The whole point isn't just getting money out of politics but it is one of the major themes. There are many others as you pointed out, some have smaller followings than others. The protests are simply a forum for people to speak out against corruption, abuses of power, or basically any other concern of those who feel disenfranchised. People want to oversimplify the protests because it's hard to wrap their heads around such disorganization and it also becomes easier to dismiss without actually thinking critically about any of it.
so because i9lobbyist) offer the cop9govt) a bribe means he has to take it?
which do you think you have a greater chance of changing, the Corps lobbying and taking money, or elected officials?
ill give you a hint, only 1 category is someone we can vote out.
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if you offer a cop a bribe, and someone higher up finds out about it, guess who gets punished.... Legally, both parties.
Both need to change. We can vote on both. One we vote with our ballots, the other we vote with our wallets
Yea, I understand there is no message behind the protests. It is just a massive whining session. These people have no clue what they want or how to achieve anything, they are just out there for the party.
LOL. Even though we explained the message behind the protests, we've shown you how to see the message, you still don't believe there's a message.
Sigh. This is why shit doesn't get done in this country, too many people unwilling to look past the red and the blue of things
Are you the official spokesman for OWS now? Where is this vastly obvious message I am missing if I cant look at their lists of demands to get it? You say you keep telling us not to bother reading the posted lists of demands because there is no real set of demands, then in the next breath you tell us how we are ignoring the message. Which one is it? Should we only pay attention to the demands we like and simply ignore the rest like they arent even there?
They said "those hippie protesters wont change anything, this movement wont get anything done"
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/01...fee/?hpt=hp_t2
http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/31/news...fees/index.htm
#Occupy - 1
Wall Street - 0
lol that has nothing to do with occupy wall street. it has everything to do with the customers
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LMAO. Ok. You mean their customers, who were all sitting on wall street protesting this very thing? Who all stormed the BofA building to close their accounts? The customers across the country who are fed up with BofA's shadinesss that are closng there accounts in droves?You're telling me that had absolutely nothing to do with that? LOL
I have a feeling if there was a referendum tomorrow calling for complete and total campaign finance reform, and new regulation on wall streets risky investments, you would think it would have nothing to do with these people protesting. LOL. When my tire has a flat, I don't say "Well, that nail stuck in the side of it had nothing to do with it"
come on man you know these dirty hippies dont have bank accounts LOL
Seriously the backlash was from customers , not the protestors, although there prob were SOME protestors that did hold bank accts. However, the numbers that fled BOA outnumber the size of people at the protest. Im sure you can say they somehow linked the protest motivating people to leave, or bringing the issue up, but it was never a core issue . I cant even find it listed in any of their so called DEMANDS. I thought this was about corp and finiancing with the govt, not debit card fees LOL
But i suppose you guys will cherry pick what you think should be attributed to the movement.
Yeah Schumer proposed an ammendment today to the constitution, and hes received MILLIONS from wall street. Pot meet kettle.I have a feeling if there was a referendum tomorrow calling for complete and total campaign finance reform, and new regulation on wall streets risky investments, you would think it would have nothing to do with these people protesting. LOL. When my tire has a flat, I don't say "Well, that nail stuck in the side of it had nothing to do with it"
Tea PArty has been calling for campaign finance reform and more for years, but i suppose none of that will be attributed to them. More cherry picking.
Ill give the OWS some credit, they fired up some people , but i still dont see any major changes coming from them.
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but hey, they got what they wanted right, fuck weveryone elseA New York City cafe cut its staff by nearly 25 percent last week because of lost business due to the ongoing Occupy Wall Street protests, the cafe's owner told FoxNews.com.
Marc Epstein, owner of the Milk Street Cafe at 40 Wall Street in lower Manhattan, said he had to cut 21 of the 97 members of his staff on Thursday and Friday after seeing sales plummet by 30 percent in the six weeks since the protests began. He's also been forced to slash the restaurant operating hours, moving up his closing time from 9 p.m. to 3:30 p.m. Mondays through Thursdays.
The incessant noise and police activity aside, Epstein said the biggest obstacle to his business has been the ubiquitous New York police barricades surrounding Zuccotti Park in lower Manhattan.
"It's not only a physical impediment, it's a psychological impediment," Epstein told FoxNews.com. "You look down Wall Street now, and it looks like it's under siege. So, people who have to walk down Wall Street don't walk down Wall Street. It used to be a beautiful pedestrian mall, and now it's not -- it's ugly."
If the barricades are not removed, Epstein said he "cannot see" how his business could sustain itself. The eatery, which opened in June, is a $4 million venture and is an expansion of the Boston restaurant he and his wife opened decades earlier.
"It's my first venture in New York and my last venture in New York," he said.
Epstein said he has pleaded with city officials, the New York police and his landlord, Donald Trump, to get the barricades removed, but he has been unable to get a return call from the city and the New York police. He was told by Trump himself, however, that the real estate mogul would try to contact city officials in hopes of removing the barricades.
Marc LaVorgna, a spokesman for Mayor Michael Bloomberg, said city officials are discussing potential solutions with Milk Street Cafe and other businesses near the protests on an ongoing basis.
"We have been working with businesses and the community to address the issues caused by the protests and will continue to do so," he told FoxNews.com.
FoxNews.com's calls seeking comment from New York police officials were not returned on Tuesday.
Trump, who owns a 68-story skyscraper near the site, told FoxNews.com that Epstein is not the only business owner taking a severe hit since the protests began.
"It's a very sad situation," Trump told FoxNews.com by phone. "They opened up to rave reviews and now because of Occupy Wall Street, nobody's going down there. People are shunning the area; it's a very big problem."
Trump said he is "in the process" of discussing the potential removal of the barricades with city officials.
"I hope so," Trump said when asked if he thought city officials will be sympathetic to his request.
Prior to last week's terminations, Epstein told Bloomberg late last month that the police barricades surrounding Zuccotti Park have deterred shoppers and caused about a 20 percent drop in sales.
Asked if he felt the protesters realized they were hurting his business, Epstein replied: "I'm very afraid of getting into what they are thinking and whether it's the police or the protesters because I don't want to get mixed up in the battle between them. But everyone should understand the consequences of their actions and nobody is."
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/01...#ixzz1cYmEW7qv
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That's what they get for opening a small business on/near the greedy wall street.
/sarcasm
Just because not everyone agrees on what they want doesn't mean none of them know what they want. You are right that it is a "massive whining session" just as the tea party rallies are a bunch of people whining about government spending. That's basically what all peaceful protests are. It doesn't make their concerns any less legitimate.
Why would you expect everyone to have clear answers to everything? We shouldn't expect everyone to be expert economists and policy experts. They are simply people trying to raise awareness about what they feel are major problems in society and government.
So your priorities look like this:
1. Milk Street Cafe's revenue
2. Thousand's of peoples' ability to assemble in a public place to express their concerns with government and industry
Ask yourself if you would feel the same way if the protestors were protesting against government spending or raising taxes.
Lol. If Milk Street Cafe's business went down any other time of the year, he wouldn't be complaining. Now he sheds a tear cause the people protesting brought their lunch from home.
Survival of the fittest, bro. Capitalism at its finest. No one wants to eat there, so the stronger stores around him flourish. Let the weak fend for themselves. Capitalism....the only way.
You gonna go down there and give them a handout, buy a sandwich for a little extra to help em out?
They are not on public property. The park they are in is privately owned.
Business is tanking BECAUSE of the protests. It was getting great reviews before they started.
Jimmy they don't get it, I've resolved to just let them have their warped sense of the world. In 10 years when I retire they'll still be complaining
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:facepalm:
Even Bloomberg thinks these miscreants are in the wrong place:
http://www.capitalnewyork.com/articl...isis-not-banks
"I hear your complaints," Bloomberg said. "Some of them are totally unfounded. It was not the banks that created the mortgage crisis. It was, plain and simple, Congress who forced everybody to go and give mortgages to people who were on the cusp. Now, I'm not saying I'm sure that was terrible policy, because a lot of those people who got homes still have them and they wouldn't have gotten them without that.
"But they were the ones who pushed Fannie and Freddie to make a bunch of loans that were imprudent, if you will. They were the ones that pushed the banks to loan to everybody. And now we want to go vilify the banks because it's one target, it's easy to blame them and congress certainly isn't going to blame themselves. At the same time, Congress is trying to pressure banks to loosen their lending standards to make more loans. This is exactly the same speech they criticized them for."
If you want to fix the broken system, you need to look at the elected officials and the circus that they've created in DC.
Wait, did you just say what I think you said?
You said that Bloomberg, the 1%, thinks that they're in the wrong place? Even though theres general assemblies in more than 20 major cities in the US? And more across the world? LMAO! And then he says he thinks it was only congress' fault for the bad mortgages, even though thats false?
You do know Bloomberg is like the 1% of the 1% right? LOL.
Why aren't they protesting Fannie and Freddie who paid CEO 13 million in bonuses last year while taking bailouts?
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Does that piss you off? those 13 million bucks was your money!
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2011/11/...e-mae-offices/
http://www.politicususa.com/en/occup...and-fannie-mae
Yeah it pisses me off I expect occupy people protesting them ASAP.
But I suspect they wont theyll continue protesting the wrong people and disrupting local business and continue raping, squatting, complaining, and generally being lazy slobs.
I got paid today, I'm happy. They aren't affecting me.
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