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Thread: Screw the Government

  1. #41
    Gods Chariot Vteckidd's Avatar
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    I don't understand what's so hard to understand.

    The GOP owns the house. Dems control senate and whitehouse.

    The GOP can't pass anything as they arent a majority. Then can only block. However, they :

    Are the only ones who have passed a budget
    Are the only ones who truly want to shrink govt spending and have proposed a plan

    Doing an up or down vote on "raise the debt ceiling" can't happen. GOP wants spending cuts, and dems won't let it happen because it effects their pet projects unless they can tax the "rich".
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    Look Behind You !!! -EnVus-'s Avatar
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  3. #43
    Moderator BanginJimmy's Avatar
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    Anyone that thinks Reid's 2.7T in fake cuts, or the GOP's 4T in fake cuts mean anything is simply ignorant. None of these are cutting anything. They are simply kicking the can down the road so that MAYBE budget increases wont be as large.


    Lets think about this entire discussion in real terms though. I believe the GOP's 4T in 'cuts' is the largest proposal we have seen. Big whoop. All that does is slightly slow our decent into oblivion. All these 'cuts' are scored in a 10 year cycle, not in a single year or even 5 year period. With current spending levels we are looking at 16T in deficit spending over the next 10 years. What good does 4T in savings do when you are only touching 25% of the problem? Look at your personal budget. How many of you are get your credit card paid off if you only pay the monthly interest you accrue and at the same time 'cut' spending from 400/mo to 300/mo? Sounds to me like you are going to just keep adding to the debt, not reduce it. Anyone disagree?


    While I am not a big fan of the Cut, Cap, and Balance plan the House passed, I do like the concept of a balanced budget amendment. IMO, The GOP should waive JUST the amendment, with the inclusion of a super majority requirement for tax increases, in Front of the Senate and the President. They get their debt limit increase with no cuts required in exchange for passage of the Amendment. At that point you leave it up to the States to ratify or defeat.

  4. #44
    MaD Tyte y0! ek forever's Avatar
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    Indeed, reducing growth in spending isn't cuts. $36 Trillion in debt instead of $42 trillion in debt is still an insane amount of debt. Not to mention we won't get that far before foreign countries quit borrowing from us. The U.S.A. faces a much larger threat to its credit rating from over-borrowing, not hitting the debt ceiling.

    The gang of six plan is the only one praise by Obama. Gee, I wonder if that's because it doesn't have any cuts in it. The guy is a big government statist imposing class warfare to grow the size of government.

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    Look Behind You !!! -EnVus-'s Avatar
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    These numbers say enough about where the money goes and look how much is missing its Bullshit !!!
    http://usliberals.about.com/od/homel...raqNumbers.htm

    For your quick reading, I've listed key statistics about the Iraq War and occupation, taken primarily from data analyzed by various think tanks, including The Brookings Institution's Iraq Index, and from mainstream media sources. Data is presented as of June 30, 2011, except as indicated.
    U.S. SPENDING IN IRAQ

    Spent & Approved War-Spending - About $900 billion of US taxpayers' funds spent or approved for spending through November 2010.

    Lost & Unaccounted for in Iraq - $9 billion of US taxpayers' money and $549.7 milion in spare parts shipped in 2004 to US contractors. Also, per ABC News, 190,000 guns, including 110,000 AK-47 rifles.

    Lost and Reported Stolen - $6.6 billion of U.S. taxpayers' money earmarked for Iraq reconstruction, reported on June 14, 2011 by Special inspector general for Iraq reconstruction Stuart Bowen who called it "the largest theft of funds in national history." (Source - CBS News) Last known holder of the $6.6 billion lost: the U.S. government.

    Missing - $1 billion in tractor trailers, tank recovery vehicles, machine guns, rocket-propelled grenades and other equipment and services provided to the Iraqi security forces. (Per CBS News on Dec 6, 2007.)

    Mismanaged & Wasted in Iraq - $10 billion, per Feb 2007 Congressional hearings

    Halliburton Overcharges Classified by the Pentagon as Unreasonable and Unsupported - $1.4 billion

    Amount paid to KBR, a former Halliburton division, to supply U.S. military in Iraq with food, fuel, housing and other items - $20 billion

    Portion of the $20 billion paid to KBR that Pentagon auditors deem "questionable or supportable" - $3.2 billion

    U.S. Annual Air-Conditioning Cost in Iraq and Afghanistan - $20.2 billion (Source - NPR, June 25, 2011)

    U.S. 2009 Monthly Spending in Iraq - $7.3 billion as of Oct 2009

    U.S. 2008 Monthly Spending in Iraq - $12 billion

    U.S. Spending per Second - $5,000 in 2008 (per Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid on May 5, 2008)

    Cost of deploying one U.S. soldier for one year in Iraq - $390,000 (Congressional Research Service)

    TROOPS IN IRAQ

    Troops in Iraq - Total 46,000 U.S. troops. All other nations have withdrawn their troops.

    U.S. Troop Casualties - 4,469 US troops; 98% male. 91% non-officers; 82% active duty, 11% National Guard; 74% Caucasian, 9% African-American, 11% Latino. 19% killed by non-hostile causes. 54% of US casualties were under 25 years old. 72% were from the US Army

    Non-U.S. Troop Casualties - Total 316, with 179 from the UK

    US Troops Wounded - 32,130, 20% of which are serious brain or spinal injuries. (Total excludes psychological injuries.)

    US Troops with Serious Mental Health Problems - 30% of US troops develop serious mental health problems within 3 to 4 months of returning home

    US Military Helicopters Downed in Iraq - 75 total, at least 36 by enemy fire

    IRAQI TROOPS, CIVILIANS & OTHERS IN IRAQ

    Private Contractors in Iraq, Working in Support of US Army Troops - More than 180,000 in August 2007, per The Nation/LA Times.

    Journalists killed - 148, 97 by murder and 51 by acts of war

    Journalists killed by US Forces - 14

    Iraqi Police and Soldiers Killed - 9,950 as of Jan 31, 2011

    Iraqi Civilians Killed, Estimated - On October 22, 2010, ABC News reported "a secret U.S. government tally that puts the Iraqi (civilian) death toll over 100,000," information that was included in more than 400,000 military documents released by Wikileaks.com.

    A UN issued report dated Sept 20, 2006 stating that Iraqi civilian casualties have been significantly under-reported. Casualties are reported at 50,000 to over 100,000, but may be much higher. Some informed estimates place Iraqi civilian casualities at over 600,000.

    Iraqi Insurgents Killed, Roughly Estimated - 55,000

    Non-Iraqi Contractors and Civilian Workers Killed - 572

    Non-Iraqi Kidnapped - 306, including 57 killed, 147 released, 4 escaped, 6 rescued and 89 status unknown.

    Daily Insurgent Attacks, Feb 2004 - 14

    Daily Insurgent Attacks, July 2005 - 70

    Daily Insurgent Attacks, May 2007 - 163

    Estimated Insurgency Strength, Nov 2003 - 15,000

    Estimated Insurgency Strength, Oct 2006 - 20,000 - 30,000

    Estimated Insurgency Strength, June 2007 - 70,000

    QUALITY OF LIFE INDICATORS

    Iraqis Displaced Inside Iraq, by Iraq War, as of May 2007 - 2,255,000

    Iraqi Refugees in Syria & Jordan - 2.1 million to 2.25 million

    Iraqi Unemployment Rate - 27 to 60%, where curfew not in effect

    Consumer Price Inflation in 2006 - 50%

    Iraqi Children Suffering from Chronic Malnutrition - 28% in June 2007 (Per CNN.com, July 30, 2007)

    Percent of professionals who have left Iraq since 2003 - 40%

    Iraqi Physicians Before 2003 Invasion - 34,000

    Iraqi Physicians Who Have Left Iraq Since 2005 Invasion - 12,000

    Iraqi Physicians Murdered Since 2003 Invasion - 2,000

    Average Daily Hours Iraqi Homes Have Electricity - 1 to 2 hours, per Ryan Crocker, U.S. Ambassador to Iraq (Per Los Angeles Times, July 27, 2007)

    Average Daily Hours Iraqi Homes Have Electricity - 10.9 in May 2007

    Average Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 5.6 in May 2007

    Pre-War Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 16 to 24

    Number of Iraqi Homes Connected to Sewer Systems - 37%

    Iraqis without access to adequate water supplies - 70% (Per CNN.com, July 30, 2007)

    Water Treatment Plants Rehabilitated - 22%

    RESULTS OF POLL Taken in Iraq in August 2005 by the British Ministry of Defense (Source: Brookings Institute)

    Iraqis "strongly opposed to presence of coalition troops - 82%

    Iraqis who believe Coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security - less than 1%

    Iraqis who feel less ecure because of the occupation - 67%

    Iraqis who do not have confidence in multi-national forces - 72%

  6. #46
    3.2L 24v DOHC One_Bad_SHO's Avatar
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    I've been doing a lot of research and have come up with a good idea on how to solve this budget crisis. All we have to do is make Canada a part of the USA and use their oil to pay off our debts. Then, we take all the french people in Canada and either sell or export them. After we have completed those two tasks, we drop a bomb on Venezuela and then sit back and enjoy some hotpockets and chocolate milk. Sounds like a fuckin plan to me.

  7. #47
    3.2L 24v DOHC One_Bad_SHO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -EnVus- View Post
    These numbers say enough about where the money goes and look how much is missing its Bullshit !!!
    http://usliberals.about.com/od/homel...raqNumbers.htm
    The "6.6 billion of U.S. taxpayers' money" that was lost in Iraq was not, in fact, U.S. tax payers money. It was Iraqs money that we were holding for them which they (Iraq) are considering suing us for. The money came from Iraqi oil sales, seized Iraqi assets and surplus funds from the United Nations oil-for-food program. Do your own research to educate yourself on that.


    There's other dumb shit in your post that I'd like to comment on but I don't really do the whole online pissing contests fueled by misled opinions of sheep, thing. Oh and.... I support the $20.2 billion we spend yearly on AC for our troops. Have you been out here? Something as little as AC helps boost morale which makes it easier for us to embrace the suck. Just saying....
    Last edited by One_Bad_SHO; 07-27-2011 at 04:03 AM. Reason: My cats breath smells like cat food.

  8. #48
    MaD Tyte y0! ek forever's Avatar
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    Dear god, if you think war is expensive, consider the cost of the 100 Million+ people who are dependent on the federal government. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of school systems, municipalities, businesses, and states.

    The treasury department writes 80,000,000 checks every month. Defense is ~20% of the budget, and probably half of that is money going into soldiers pockets being spent here at home.

    While I think these wars are pretty silly and wildly expensive, at least there is constitutional justification that the government has a responsibility to protect us. Government in it's simplest form should provide for a legal system to foster the free market, protect it's people, and that's pretty much it.
    Last edited by ek forever; 07-27-2011 at 05:32 AM.

  9. #49
    magical negro/photog .blank cd's Avatar
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    Damn there are sane people in congress....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2Q52...ature=youtu.be

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  10. #50
    magical negro/photog .blank cd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One_Bad_SHO View Post
    There's other dumb shit in your post that I'd like to comment on but I don't really do the whole online pissing contests fueled by misled opinions of sheep, thing. Oh and.... I support the $20.2 billion we spend yearly on AC for our troops. Have you been out here? Something as little as AC helps boost morale which makes it easier for us to embrace the suck. Just saying....
    I dont support the 20 billion we spend on AC for the troops one bit. If you brought all of them home, you'd save all that money, and they'd be back home where we're already paying for their AC

    Quote Originally Posted by ek forever View Post
    While I think these wars are pretty silly and wildly expensive, at least there is constitutional justification that the government has a responsibility to protect us. Government in it's simplest form should provide for a legal system to foster the free market, protect it's people, and that's pretty much it.
    No there's not and no It shouldnt

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  11. #51
    Petrolhead Browning151's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    Damn there are sane people in congress....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2Q52...ature=youtu.be
    Initial statement: Just raise the debt limit with no strings attached. What does that accomplish other than allowing us to continue to pile on more and more debt?

    0:14 "Medicare for all, end of $400b in yearly subsidies for the health insurance industry" Uh, what? Surely he's not implying that Medicare for everyone would save the gov't money.

    0:37 "We could have another New Deal" Uh, no thanks.

  12. #52
    magical negro/photog .blank cd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Browning151 View Post
    Initial statement: Just raise the debt limit with no strings attached. What does that accomplish other than allowing us to continue to pile on more and more debt?
    Initial statement: raise the debt limit.

    Following statements: attached strings.

    0:14 "Medicare for all, end of $400b in yearly subsidies for the health insurance industry" Uh, what? Surely he's not implying that Medicare for everyone would save the gov't money.
    You're partially right here. Medicare for all
    the way it is now won't save any money. End the govt subsidies and put that towards Medicare, now you're getting somewhere.
    0:37 "We could have another New Deal" Uh, no thanks.
    Lol. Ok. You need to do some more research about the New Deal. The reason you can go to the store and pick up a 6 pack or a 5th of jäger and party it up with your friends was part of the new deal. See "prohibition"

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  13. #53
    Petrolhead Browning151's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    You're partially right here. Medicare for all
    the way it is now won't save any money. End the govt subsidies and put that towards Medicare, now you're getting somewhere.
    So $400b a year would be enough to pay for everyone that is currently covered by private insurance to be covered by Medicare?

    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    Lol. Ok. You need to do some more research about the New Deal. The reason you can go to the store and pick up a 6 pack or a 5th of jäger and party it up with your friends was part of the new deal. See "prohibition"
    So the most important part of the New Deal was the repeal of prohibition? Perhaps you should do some more research if you believe that is the case.

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    magical negro/photog .blank cd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Browning151 View Post
    So $400b a year would be enough to pay for everyone that is currently covered by private insurance to be covered by Medicare?
    Lemme guess, you dont think that it would be?

    So the most important part of the New Deal was the repeal of prohibition?
    Totally right. I totally forgot to add that part...

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    MaD Tyte y0! ek forever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    I dont support the 20 billion we spend on AC for the troops one bit. If you brought all of them home, you'd save all that money, and they'd be back home where we're already paying for their AC

    No there's not and no It shouldnt
    I know you didn't just say that the federal government isn't constitutionally bound to provide for a standing military. Article 1 Section 8.

    And the New Deal was really a "Raw deal" Massive government growth, massive growth in spending, and FDR was still seeing 14% unemployment and weak economic growth into his 3rd term. The guy was a master of demagoguery. You really can't argue that the New Deal did remotely what it was supposed to do besides grow government. It didn't fix the economy. The economy sucked until post WWII, over 25 years after the Great Depression in 1929.

    And as far as medicare:

    Quote Originally Posted by Government Accountability Office (GAO)
    In a newly released report, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) estimates that, in fiscal year 2010, $48 billion in taxpayer money was squandered on fraudulent or improper Medicare claims. Meanwhile, the nation’s ten largest health insurance companies made combined profits of $12.7 billion in 2010 (according to Fortune 500). In other words, for every $1 made by the nation’s ten largest insurers, Medicare lost nearly $4…

    Actually, it may have been even worse than that: The GAO writes that this $48 billion in taxpayer money that went down the drain doesn’t even represent Medicare’s full tally of lost revenue, since it “did not include improper payments in its Part D prescription drug benefit, for which the agency has not yet estimated a total amount.”
    That doesn't even include part D!!!!

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    3.2L 24v DOHC One_Bad_SHO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    I dont support the 20 billion we spend on AC for the troops one bit. If you brought all of them home, you'd save all that money, and they'd be back home where we're already paying for their AC
    Spend a week out here with us and you'll support it.

    Regardless, the $20 billion spent on AC is after the fact that we are already here. To state that we'd save the money if we were all brought home is just... plainly... stupid.

    You should move to France. Just saying....

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    magical negro/photog .blank cd's Avatar
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    ^ Trust me. I know all about how it is out there. My brother is on the way home from there as we speak. My cousin is an active SEAL.

    I dont understand what you're saying here though: After the fact? Of course its after the fact. If no one was there, they wouldnt spend it. simple as that. I guess you're thinking Im saying that you guys can go without A/C out there, what Im saying is you guys can go without being there in the first place

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    Moderator BanginJimmy's Avatar
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    I can't believe at mere 20B is causing this much discussion. It is such a small number er for the scale we are talking about its not even worth mentioning.

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

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    Family Man ahabion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    I can't believe at mere 20B is causing this much discussion. It is such a small number er for the scale we are talking about its not even worth mentioning.
    He's referring that we shouldn't have involved ourselves in war post-9/11. Killing Osama and eliminating Hussien does nothing for this country other than make us broke. Why should we worry about national safety/security and living in freedom? He'd rather be living rich and under oppression... /sarcasm

    IMO, I'd say cut every social program out there and put a fair or flat tax on the whole system and get rid of the IRS. The government should never be running on debt anyway (deficit spending), it's stupid, both mathematically and ethically. They should be running all cash. For those people who want to support social programs, then that should be facilitated either at the state level or privatized. If you care about the homeless or Children's Healthcare of Atlanta, then donate and do it. Want your kids to have a better education then pay for it. If you want to see the economy pick up, then you need to make a budget for yourself and tell everyone you know to make a budget. When everyone starts 'fixing themselves' that is when the economy will come back. The Top-Down mentality of the government fixing the economy is just plain stupid and it doesn't work.

    Bottom line: Put your money where your mouth is. When everyone does this, you create a thriving community/county/state/country.

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    Petrolhead Browning151's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    Lemme guess, you dont think that it would be?
    With the massive amount of fraud and loss in the system that we already can't keep up with, and you want to add everyone that currently has private insurance? No. Government is inefficient at running business, healthcare is no different.

    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    Totally right. I totally forgot to add that part...
    Just find it funny that out of all of the significant programs and changes brought about through the New Deal, that's the one you pick out. The New Deal really never accomplished what it set out to do, aside from grow government.

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    Petrolhead Browning151's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahabion View Post
    If you care about the homeless or Children's Healthcare of Atlanta, then donate and do it. Want your kids to have a better education then pay for it. If you want to see the economy pick up, then you need to make a budget for yourself and tell everyone you know to make a budget. When everyone starts 'fixing themselves' that is when the economy will come back. The Top-Down mentality of the government fixing the economy is just plain stupid and it doesn't work.

    Bottom line: Put your money where your mouth is. When everyone does this, you create a thriving community/county/state/country.
    That's called personal responsibility/accountability, a concept which sadly most of this country has no knowledge or understanding of.

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    Family Man ahabion's Avatar
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    http://youtu.be/_68GjR6V6zI

    Yay John! /doh!

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    This guy best describes how I feel (and probably how you all feel too, but I can't speak for you guys). My message to the federal government. STOP IT B!!!!
    http://youtu.be/tRmZ9zH-mYM?hd=1
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    Quote Originally Posted by KlassAct_EJ6 View Post
    This guy best describes how I feel (and probably how you all feel too, but I can't speak for you guys). My message to the federal government. STOP IT B!!!!
    http://youtu.be/tRmZ9zH-mYM?hd=1
    great link! that was definitely a facebook share.

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    Certified Gearhead KlassAct_EJ6's Avatar
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    All this finger pointing and we still get downgraded by S & P. Even after that, you still have both sides pointing fingers days after the "big vote." AGAIN!?! These assholes don't learn. If this gridlock gets any worse its gonna cost us. Its not gonna matter if you're liberal or conservative, we are ALL going to suffer because of these morons.
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  26. #66
    Moderator BanginJimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KlassAct_EJ6 View Post
    All this finger pointing and we still get downgraded by S & P. Even after that, you still have both sides pointing fingers days after the "big vote." AGAIN!?! These assholes don't learn. If this gridlock gets any worse its gonna cost us. Its not gonna matter if you're liberal or conservative, we are ALL going to suffer because of these morons.


    S&P downgraded us because they know the "cuts" are a joke that will never happen. Just like the commission, they are political theater. S&P wanted better than 4T worth of cuts and they got 2.5T in reductions in growth. When S&P gets the proof that the cuts arent going to happen, they, and the other rating agencies, are going to downgrade our debt a couple more notches.


    Want to see things change in DC? Great, all you have to do is stop electing the Theocrats and Socialists. How about electing people that care more about the country than they do the D or R next to their name? How about electing people that have actually held a real job before and speak in real terms, not political ones?

    I know, its too much to ask. What is happening on Jersey Shore is more important.

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    magical negro/photog .blank cd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    How about electing people that care more about the country than they do the D or R next to their name? How about electing people that have actually held a real job before and speak in real terms, not political ones?
    I know, its too much to ask. What is happening on Jersey Shore is more important.
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    How about electing people that care more about the country than they do the D or R next to their name? How about electing people that have actually held a real job before and speak in real terms, not political ones?
    I know, its too much to ask. What is happening on Jersey Shore is more important.
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    How about electing people that care more about the country than they do the D or R next to their name? How about electing people that have actually held a real job before and speak in real terms, not political ones?
    I know, its too much to ask. What is happening on Jersey Shore is more important.
    Hell yes. I don't think enough people know that you don't have to vote for someone that has a D or and R next to their name. Like it's a requirement or something.....

    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    How about electing people that care more about the country than they do the D or R next to their name? How about electing people that have actually held a real job before and speak in real terms, not political ones?
    I know, its too much to ask. What is happening on Jersey Shore is more important.

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    Soon we china and Russia will be playing Mob and breaking our knee caps. We owe them so much money and they can careless what happens to us just pay up...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    S&P downgraded us because they know the "cuts" are a joke that will never happen. Just like the commission, they are political theater. S&P wanted better than 4T worth of cuts and they got 2.5T in reductions in growth. When S&P gets the proof that the cuts arent going to happen, they, and the other rating agencies, are going to downgrade our debt a couple more notches.


    Want to see things change in DC? Great, all you have to do is stop electing the Theocrats and Socialists. How about electing people that care more about the country than they do the D or R next to their name? How about electing people that have actually held a real job before and speak in real terms, not political ones?

    I know, its too much to ask. What is happening on Jersey Shore is more important.
    Completely agree.

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    I expect the DOW to fall another 1000 points in the next 30 days. Already down 200 today.

    Make no mistake about it this is another recession, and it will be as bad as the 2008 debacle. Only difference is we will go from 9.1% unemployment to prob 12-13%.

    They "cut 2.5Trillion" from the expected 9 trillion we are going to borrow in the next 10 years. So CUT is a shitty word to use, more like "we arent goint to borrow as much" which history shows us thats easy to change once a new congress and president is elected.

    sit back, its going to be a bumpy ride
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    Even the CBO says we're going to borrow $12 Trillion by 2021 under the new debt deal. And we all know how optimistic the CBO is. They are bound legally to use current law, which assumes Bush tax cuts will end, Millions of Americans who will never get hit with the AMT will get hit with that, and so on.

    The CBO basically is always off by a matter of Trillions in its projections. Almost always in the optimistic direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vteckidd View Post
    I expect the DOW to fall another 1000 points in the next 30 days. Already down 200 today.

    Make no mistake about it this is another recession, and it will be as bad as the 2008 debacle. Only difference is we will go from 9.1% unemployment to prob 12-13%.

    They "cut 2.5Trillion" from the expected 9 trillion we are going to borrow in the next 10 years. So CUT is a shitty word to use, more like "we arent goint to borrow as much" which history shows us thats easy to change once a new congress and president is elected.

    sit back, its going to be a bumpy ride
    Mostly agree but a few things I need to point out


    1. We never got out of a recession. This is still the same recession we started in 08. The only growth we have had since then has been the gov't. Now that TARP and the stimulus are over with economy os showing its true colors.

    2. The cuts called for in the deal will never happen and we all know it. When Congress can't get their shit together they will simply pass an extension on the 'trigger' so it never actually forces cuts.


    There are very simple things Congress can do to at least stop hitting a recovery. Things like reductions in corporate tax rates will immediately cause businesses to hire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    Mostly agree but a few things I need to point out


    1. We never got out of a recession. This is still the same recession we started in 08. The only growth we have had since then has been the gov't. Now that TARP and the stimulus are over with economy os showing its true colors.
    I hear ya man, but if we go by the true definition of a recession and recovery, the recession ended around may/june 2009. This is the exact DOUBLE DIP recession economists warned about when stim 1 was passed. Pass the stim and you deal with the NOW until the money runs out........

    2. The cuts called for in the deal will never happen and we all know it. When Congress can't get their shit together they will simply pass an extension on the 'trigger' so it never actually forces cuts.


    There are very simple things Congress can do to at least stop hitting a recovery. Things like reductions in corporate tax rates will immediately cause businesses to hire.

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    Agreed 100000% , but today Obama blamed the economic free fall on the TP, until we kick him and other GOP members out and elect people willing to do the tough choices, we are in major trouble.
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    Yeah, but can you trust the experts when they say we're out of a recession when the equation for GDP is as follows:

    GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports),


    The "experts" say we're out of a recession based on GDP growth. But when that GDP growth is largely attributed to the government taking money from someone else and spending it the way the government sees fit, you might find a lot of economists who would argue the private sector is shrinking. Or at least growing at a much slower rate than the government.

    This "we aren't in a recession" nonsense is political ploy used for speeches, polls, and campaigns. The DOW is tanking, the economy is crawling, CPI is exploding, 1st time home ownership is at a 30 year low, etc. The list goes on and on.

    And I agree with you VtecKidd, the RINOs and establishment needs to go. Things aren't much better with the new congress because we've still got old leadership. As much as I avoid associating with the Tea Party for argumentative reasons the Tea Party really does have a firm grip on actually cutting government. Growing at a slower rate isn't government cuts, spending less this year than the year before is a cut. We aren't going to see that with the republican leadership we have now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    There are very simple things Congress can do to at least stop hitting a recovery. Things like reductions in corporate tax rates will immediately cause businesses to hire.

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    Never understood why people keep thinking this will work. If your business is failing because people are too broke to buy your stuff, no smart business man is gonna pay MORE people to produce a product that isn't selling, ask anyone with a simple understanding of business. Cutting corporate tax rates is just gonna put more money in a single persons pocket or cause a business to stockpile their profits even more than whats already happening. That only works in theory in a perfect world. Sadly we don't live in a perfect world

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    Never understood why people keep thinking this will work. If your business is failing because people are too broke to buy your stuff, no smart business man is gonna pay MORE people to produce a product that isn't selling, ask anyone with a simple understanding of business. Cutting corporate tax rates is just gonna put more money in a single persons pocket or cause a business to stockpile their profits even more than whats already happening. That only works in theory in a perfect world. Sadly we don't live in a perfect world
    While there is the possibility that a person may keep more of the earnings rather than paying taxes, there are many more people who will use that money to reinvest into their business in the form of either jobs, job tools, or simple infrastructure. Corporations pay far more to dodge taxation and jump through loopholes. If you don't have corporate taxes, then that money can have a far greater potential that it will be reinvested back into the company. Pretty simple thought really.

    This guy is just a genius. I'd vote for him for President. http://youtu.be/D-nj2H7ALzg

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    Never understood why people keep thinking this will work. If your business is failing because people are too broke to buy your stuff, no smart business man is gonna pay MORE people to produce a product that isn't selling, ask anyone with a simple understanding of business. Cutting corporate tax rates is just gonna put more money in a single persons pocket or cause a business to stockpile their profits even more than whats already happening. That only works in theory in a perfect world. Sadly we don't live in a perfect world

    I disagree. This wont affect all sectors the same, but it will have a heavy influence on the manufacturing sector. CORPORATIONS DONT PAY 1 CENT IN TAXES, CONSUMERS PAY IT. That simple fact is why dumping corporate taxes will add jobs. Cutting those taxes will put more money in the consumers pocket. More money in the consumer's pocket means more money to spend on the things they want and need. More consumer spending means more jobs are opened to fill that need.

    You also have to look at this in a global sense. Even if the rise in spending is small in the US, the elimination of the corporate tax rate would cause the prices on our exports to also drop, making those products more competitive overseas. This also results in more jobs, more money, and more jobs. The US corporate tax rate is the highest in the world and is a massive drag on businesses, especially those that are profitable and need to expand.

    Think of it this way. You own a business that does 10 mil a year in sales. 8 mil of that goes to supplies. You have 20 employees making 50k a year when you add in payroll taxes and benefits. You take home about 100k a year and the rest goes to various taxes. Business is strong and has you working everyone, including yourself, to full capacity. You want to expand and add 5 more employees. Then you find out that the govt is going to cut your taxes by 50%. This gives you another 400k of disposable income plus whatever increase in sales results from the added output. At this point, a smart businessman is going to add the five people he needs and expand his manufacturing capacity. He will probably give those 20 people that have been working themselves ragged a raise to help compensate for the added hours and stress.

    Now imagine if you raise this same businessman's taxes by 10%. Well, there goes the 5 extra employees, plus 2 more current ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ahabion View Post
    While there is the possibility that a person may keep more of the earnings rather than paying taxes, there are many more people who will use that money to reinvest into their business in the form of either jobs, job tools, or simple infrastructure. Corporations pay far more to dodge taxation and jump through loopholes. If you don't have corporate taxes, then that money can have a far greater potential that it will be reinvested back into the company. Pretty simple thought really.

    This guy is just a genius. I'd vote for him for President. http://youtu.be/D-nj2H7ALzg
    The chance of a CEO or business pocketing the extra income is almost an absolute certainty. Especially in this day in age where everyone is looking for the fast buck. What are you gonna do when youre store is folding up? You're not gonna hire more people, youre not gonna buy more raw material. You're gonna use that money to stay afloat. And Rubio? He's an evangelical Protestant Christian. The absolute last thing you need in the white house is someone trying to erase that part of the constitution that separates church and state.

    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    I disagree. This wont affect all sectors the same, but it will have a heavy influence on the manufacturing sector. CORPORATIONS DONT PAY 1 CENT IN TAXES, CONSUMERS PAY IT. That simple fact is why dumping corporate taxes will add jobs. Cutting those taxes will put more money in the consumers pocket. More money in the consumer's pocket means more money to spend on the things they want and need. More consumer spending means more jobs are opened to fill that need.
    How does cutting taxes on a business put more money in my pocket? "AT&T's tax rate got slashed!! Now I feel alot better about handing them 180 bucks a month!" Do you honestly think if we gave them more money, they would drop prices on goods and services? Think again

    You also have to look at this in a global sense. Even if the rise in spending is small in the US, the elimination of the corporate tax rate would cause the prices on our exports to also drop, making those products more competitive overseas. This also results in more jobs, more money, and more jobs. The US corporate tax rate is the highest in the world and is a massive drag on businesses, especially those that are profitable and need to expand.
    No, the biggest drag on businesses are their artificially inflated prices on goods and claiming its because of the economy. Take basic goods like chips and coke and gum; the price of an ear of corn has plummeted, the price of water, soybeans, the fact that most of the labor has moved overseas, wheres all the money going? Do you remember what you paid only 5 years ago for a bottle of coke and a bag of chips? And this can be applied to almost anything. Its a sickening cycle thats only hurting businesses more than its helping. I have personally written off buying bottled sodas and chips because of their recent price hike. Last I checked, the price of an ear of corn hasnt gone up, and neither has the price of carbonated water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    How does cutting taxes on a business put more money in my pocket? "AT&T's tax rate got slashed!! Now I feel alot better about handing them 180 bucks a month!" Do you honestly think if we gave them more money, they would drop prices on goods and services? Think again
    You've got no clue how economics works.

    And it's not giving them more money, it's letting AT&T keep more money that they earned. Where does AT&T get that money with which it pays taxes? It gets it from you as you so elegantly stated. Businesses write checks to the government with your hard earned money.

    Target and Walmart both sell a Huffy bicycle. They both sell them for $100. $25 of that price is embedded taxes and regulatory burdens that make producing that good more expensive.

    If you eliminate those taxes, walmart cuts it's price by $5. Target cuts it's by $10. Walmart jumps the gun and cuts it to $75 and so does target because that is the market price for that good.

    That's a simple way of putting it, but that's how it works and that's almost literally how much of a businesses taxes you're paying when you buy something. About 23% of the price of everything you buy is taxes. It varies a bit on the good or service by its elasticity, but the average is ~23%.

    I got news for you, corporations don't collaborate together to keep prices high, they would much rather short the other company it's profits by selling the same product for less at a greater volume.

    Not to mention you need to get off the big corporation schtick. Small businesses make up an epic fuckton more of the economy than big businesses do. hundreds of thousands of small businesses up against a few thousand multi-million dollar businesses? It's not even close how much more of an impact on the economy that small businesses have compared to big business. Get off the wealth envy horse.

    Businesses are in business to make money, not fund government. They have an obligation to the investors, shareholders, and employees to turn a profit and that is it. Anything the government does to them as a regulation or a tax is simply a cost of production and that is passed onto the consumer and their laborers.

    A study I read that examined 35 countries over 21 years examined wages, labor, and business taxes over that period and concluded that .5-.6 of every 1% of taxes levied on business come out of the laborers pocket in the form of suppressed wages. With another 20-30% coming out of the consumer in the form of higher prices you can start to see where businesses don't pay taxes. Depending on the elasticity of the good or service some businesses might pay up to 20% of the literal tax burden, but that's not very often.

    Makes pretty good sense when you think about it, a business has to make X dollars to keep its doors open and keep hiring people ever year. Most businesses fire and hire ~3% of it's workforce every year to increase productivity and get rid of the bad workers and give new ones a shot. Something we should see a lot more in public schools, government agencies, etc.

    Edit: And please tell me where the constitution separates church and state? You're perpetuating a court ruling that progressives have copied/pasted in the classroom for years and years. Progressive teachers don't read kids the literal text because that's not what it implies. You're a government educated Ostrich with it's head in the mainstream sand hole.
    Last edited by ek forever; 08-09-2011 at 05:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ek forever View Post
    You've got no clue how economics works.

    Target and Walmart both sell a Huffy bicycle. They both sell them for $100. $25 of that price is embedded taxes and regulatory burdens that make producing that good more expensive.

    If you eliminate those taxes, walmart cuts it's price by $5. Target cuts it's by $10. Walmart jumps the gun and cuts it to $75 and so does target because that is the market price for that good.

    That's a simple way of putting it, but that's how it works and that's almost literally how much of a businesses taxes you're paying when you buy something. About 23% of the price of everything you buy is taxes. It varies a bit on the good or service by its elasticity, but the average is ~23%.

    I got news for you, corporations don't collaborate together to keep prices high, they would much rather short the other company it's profits by selling the same product for less at a greater volume.
    I know thats how its supposed to work, but thats not whats happening

    Edit: And please tell me where the constitution separates church and state? You're perpetuating a court ruling that progressives have copied/pasted in the classroom for years and years. Progressive teachers don't read kids the literal text because that's not what it implies. You're a government educated Ostrich with it's head in the mainstream sand hole.
    I can tell you've never read the constitution before. Particularly the first amendment, and particularly the establishment clause. No, the text "separation of church and state" doesn't appear here, but it is implied, seeing as how it was written by secularists. You should research more into this issue, you'll see why you dont want someone in office proselytizing and making laws based on their faith and not on rational thought

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