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    Default So Obama just put raising taxes on the table...

    Shocking.

    By TOM RAUM, Associated Press Writer Tom Raum, Associated Press Writer – Tue Apr 12, 8:13 am ET
    WASHINGTON – Higher taxes have been missing from the fierce budget battle that nearly shut down the federal government. But President Barack Obama is about to put them on the table — at least a modest version that he had pushed before and then rested on the shelf.
    Most economists and budget analysts say a comprehensive mix of spending cuts and tax increases is essential to any viable deficit-reduction plan. Yet few players in the negotiations have gone there.
    It comes in the scramble to heed what is widely viewed as a loud clamor from voters to slam the brakes on runaway government spending. There has been no corresponding public demand for raising taxes. That's not surprising, but the top-bracket U.S. tax rate now is the lowest it's been in decades, and it's far lower than those in many other industrialized countries, especially in western Europe.
    Tax elements of Obama's broad deficit-reduction plan, to be laid out in a speech Wednesday, seem likely to revive his earlier proposals.
    The president is expected to bring back his recommendation, first made in the 2008 campaign, to end Bush-era tax cuts for households earning over $250,000 a year. He temporarily set it aside when he signed onto a late 2010 agreement with Republicans to extend all Bush tax cuts for two years.
    However, he did renew the bid earlier this year in his budget for the 2012 fiscal year that begins Oct. 1.
    Any comprehensive deficit-reduction plan must include a mix of spending cuts and tax increases, experts argue from both sides of the political spectrum.
    "There's no alternative, and I don't know of anybody who has seriously looked at this problem who thinks there is," said William A. Galston, a White House domestic policy adviser during the Clinton administration. "You're going to need to put together tough packages of programmatic cuts and revenue increases."
    With a presidential election just around the corner, and voters demanding cuts in government spending, few politicians seem eager to climb out on a higher-taxes limb.
    Even Obama's bid to end Bush-era tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans — bitterly fought by Republicans — would just take tax rates on them back to where they were in the 1990s, a decade of strong economic growth.
    A sweeping Republican proposal laid down by House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan of Wisconsin proposes trimming more than $5 trillion from deficits over the next decade, but it does so almost exclusively on the spending side of the ledger, including a drastic reshaping of Medicare and other federal safety-net entitlement programs.
    The Ryan plan doesn't only fail to propose major new tax increases, it advocates lowering the top tax rates for both corporations and individuals to 25 percent from the current 35 percent.
    This comes amid disclosures of low tax payments by some of the nation's biggest companies, including General Electric Co., which made $14.2 billion in worldwide profits last year, but paid no U.S. corporate taxes in 2010.
    "We strongly disagree with the lack of balance in Congressman Ryan's approach," White House spokesman Jay Carney said Monday. "We understand that people will come to the table with different views, but the president believes that we have to have balance."
    Heavy pressure from the tea party wing of the Republican Party, with its insistence on smaller government and strong opposition to new taxes, has complicated efforts by Republican leaders, especially House Speaker John Boehner of Ohio, to find common ground with the White House.
    Democrats aren't exactly crying out for raising taxes now either. Not with approaching national elections and a restive electorate unhappy with levels of federal spending.
    Obama's proposal to let the Bush tax cuts expire for families making over $250,000 or individuals earning above $200,000 will be woven into the upcoming presidential election. In emphasizing it now, rather than later, Obama all but assured that outcome.
    Obama also is expected to call for other changes in the tax code, which he contends benefits the rich.
    "Every corner of the federal government has to be looked at here," senior White House adviser David Plouffe says. "Revenues are going to have to be part of this." "Revenues" has always been Washington code for more taxes.
    The bipartisan deficit-reduction commission appointed by Obama, led by Democrat Erskine Bowles and Republican Alan Simpson, called late last year for slashing about $4 trillion from budget deficits over the coming decade.
    Roughly two-thirds of that would come through program cuts and one-third through increased taxes. Although overall tax rates would decline, dozens of popular tax breaks would be scaled back or eliminated, including the child tax credit, mortgage interest deduction and deduction claimed by employers who provide health insurance.
    Obama praised the panel for its work, but embraced few of its recommendations, and none of the major ones on new taxes.
    About the same time, another bipartisan panel headed by Republican Pete V. Domenici and Democrat Alice Rivlin came out with its own plan that would go even further — getting roughly half of its deficit reductions from tax increases and half from spending cuts.
    Rivlin, a former Federal Reserve vice chairwoman and budget director in the Clinton administration, says there's no other way than a mix. "It cannot be all on the spending side," she said.
    Panels recommending tax increases haven't fared very well. When President George W. Bush's tax-code overhaul commission, chaired by former GOP Sen. Connie Mack of Florida, recommended big cuts in the cherished home mortgage deduction and other popular tax breaks in 2005, Bush gave it a cold shoulder.
    Ever since Democratic presidential candidate Walter Mondale famously said in 1984 that, if elected, he would reluctantly raise taxes — and promptly got clobbered in President Ronald Reagan's re-election landslide — advocating tax increases has been dangerous territory for politicians of all stripes.
    Reagan's "supply side" economics, the notion that tax cuts can pay for themselves and that lower taxes mean higher revenues, remains Republican gospel. No matter that few mainstream economists totally subscribe to that theory, or that Reagan proposed tax increases in every one of his eight years in office except the first.
    "It's gotten much worse since then," suggests Bruce Bartlett, a domestic policy adviser to Reagan and a Treasury official under President George H. W. Bush. Bartlett cited the growing influence of unrelenting anti-tax advocates like Americans for Tax Reform and some within the tea party movement.
    Bartlett said he's "enough of a libertarian" to wish that the nation's budget woes could indeed be solved by spending cuts alone. "But I just don't see how that's humanly possible, giving the aging of our society, the wars we're involved in and various other things."
    This year's budget deficit is expected to be a record $1.6 trillion. But that's just for one year. Added to previous years' deficits, it brings the national debt to a shade under $14.3 trillion. Annual deficits are expected to decline as the economy recovers from the worst downturn since the 1930s, but then climb again as millions of baby boomers qualify for government Social Security and Medicare benefits.

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    RIGGER Sneezin's Avatar
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    so as much as i would really like to know about this,,,,its just to much..

    did you type this, or copy and paste?

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    If you are serious about wanting to get rid of the debt, everything should be put on the table.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bu villain View Post
    If you are serious about wanting to get rid of the debt, everything should be put on the table.
    I don't disagree. However they need to be serious about cutting spending first before they try and take even more out of my check. Right now I don't believe either side is serious... It's a dog and pony show, both sides has their "pet" spending projects they are unwilling to give up, and it's easier for them to take more out of my pocket. Just so they don't have to make hard choices and risk upsetting their base of voters. Sure you'll see them hem-hawing about it on the news shows, but the deficit hasn't gone down since the 60's.


    They spend it faster than we can make it. No matter if it's Democrat or Republican in control of Congress.

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    I like this idea the "PCCC" Has...
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0...ec3_lnk2|55619

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    All the taxable income of everyone making more than $100,000/year is about $1.5 Trillion.

    You could tax that at 100% and you wouldn't voter this years deficit.

    Taxes are not even remotely the problem. Ancient entitlement programs, foreign military action, etc are the real source of the problem.

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    Taxing the rich is just a tactic to get votes.

    Truth is if you think for one second taxing the rich will translate into paying any of the deficit down is laughable. They'll take that money and use it on more social programs.

    We have a SPENDING PROBLEM not a revenue problem. The problem is we make $100000 a year and spend a million. The answer isn't to spend the same. The answer is to cut spending.
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    Taxing the "rich" will only lead to killing off small businesses. Those that can't afford the taxes will fail and those who can afford the taxes, but don't want to deal with it will simply close shop and live off the money they have already earned. Raising taxes will just slow the economy, how about the gov't live within its means, like so many Americans have had to learn to do during this recession?

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    I look at it as if you make more the more you should pay back in taxes...

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    Quote Originally Posted by -EnVus- View Post
    I look at it as if you make more the more you should pay back in taxes...

    You already do pay more in taxes if you make more money so I dont know where you are going with this.


    As already stated, revenue isnt the problem, spending is. Taxing successful people will do nothing more than drag the entire economy down while doing absolutely nothing to reduce the deficit.


    Why is it that liberals care nothing about bringing the "less fortunate" up, but instead focus on bringing successful people down? I can say for a fact that most tax payers would gladly pay their taxes for these entitlement programs if these programs actually did something to help people rise above them. If welfare programs actually helped people learn the skills they need to become self sufficient instead of providing an unending handout for doing nothing, maybe we would see people actually try to get off the govt tit. But no, that will never happen because too many politicians, of both major parties, would rather do the things that will get them re-elected instead of the things that benefit the country as a whole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    You already do pay more in taxes if you make more money so I dont know where you are going with this.


    As already stated, revenue isnt the problem, spending is. Taxing successful people will do nothing more than drag the entire economy down while doing absolutely nothing to reduce the deficit.


    Why is it that liberals care nothing about bringing the "less fortunate" up, but instead focus on bringing successful people down? I can say for a fact that most tax payers would gladly pay their taxes for these entitlement programs if these programs actually did something to help people rise above them. If welfare programs actually helped people learn the skills they need to become self sufficient instead of providing an unending handout for doing nothing, maybe we would see people actually try to get off the govt tit. But no, that will never happen because too many politicians, of both major parties, would rather do the things that will get them re-elected instead of the things that benefit the country as a whole.
    If it comes down to them choosing to cut Medicare,Medicaid or Social Security benefits then im willing to pay more taxes. Just don't touch those things that so many people rely on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by -EnVus- View Post
    If it comes down to them choosing to cut Medicare,Medicaid or Social Security benefits then im willing to pay more taxes. Just don't touch those things that so many people rely on...
    I think the highest tax rate people pay right now for FED is 35% (someone correct me if i am wrong). By the time you add in state, some people (if you live in New York) are paying close to 45% in taxes. That means almost HALF of what they MAKE goes to taxes.

    Meanwhile, the bottom 50% pays NOTHING IN TAXES. ZIP, ZILCH, NADA, ZERO, DONUT HOLE , ETC.

    So imo the "rich" pay their "fair share" already. Its easy when you make $30,000 a year to point the finger at the guy making $30,000 bonuses and saying "OOOOOO you evil rich person you you need to pay more".

    The fact of the matter is that if you are not willing to cut social programs, you better have a better idea than taxing the rich to bring the deficit down. What part of WE CANT AFFORD IT do people just not get. We are long past the point of "we cant afford it, but im not willing to cut this just yet".

    History has show us you increase tax revenues by actually CUTTING taxes. A job created pays more in taxes to the Feds than taxing the existing "rich" people. When you cut taxes, you grow the economy, and you fill more people into the employment system who then pay more in taxes. SO why not focus on getting the guy making $20,000 a year to get him to making $60,000 a year, so he will pay more in taxes?

    The mantra isnt going to work this time, we are long past the class warfare arguments
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vteckidd View Post
    I think the highest tax rate people pay right now for FED is 35% (someone correct me if i am wrong). By the time you add in state, some people (if you live in New York) are paying close to 45% in taxes. That means almost HALF of what they MAKE goes to taxes.
    This is not true. We have a progressive tax system and a huge number of tax breaks/credits so someone who is in the 35% bracket pretty much never pays anywhere near 35% of their income in taxes. I was in the 25% bracket last year and my effective federal income tax rate was around 9%. Current federal income tax rates are near the lowest in America's history and that's a fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vteckidd View Post
    Meanwhile, the bottom 50% pays NOTHING IN TAXES. ZIP, ZILCH, NADA, ZERO, DONUT HOLE , ETC.

    So imo the "rich" pay their "fair share" already. Its easy when you make $30,000 a year to point the finger at the guy making $30,000 bonuses and saying "OOOOOO you evil rich person you you need to pay more".
    Saying the bottom 50% pay nothing in taxes needs a very important clarification. They may pay no INCOME TAX but they certainly pay a lot of other taxes (e.g., sales tax, gas tax, payroll tax). Many of those people who you say pay no tax actually pay a much higher percentage of their income in taxes than the rich.

    When people say the rich need to pay their fair share, it has nothing to do with being evil rich people. It has to do with paying a more equal percentage of all taxes compared to their income. Ask Warren Buffett, he agrees rich people should be paying more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vteckidd View Post
    History has show us you increase tax revenues by actually CUTTING taxes. A job created pays more in taxes to the Feds than taxing the existing "rich" people. When you cut taxes, you grow the economy, and you fill more people into the employment system who then pay more in taxes. SO why not focus on getting the guy making $20,000 a year to get him to making $60,000 a year, so he will pay more in taxes?
    No history does not show this with any certainty. This is very much debated in the world of economists. There are so many factors that influence an economy, it is next to impossible to prove such a statement. You are passing off philosophy as fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    You already do pay more in taxes if you make more money so I dont know where you are going with this.


    As already stated, revenue isnt the problem, spending is. Taxing successful people will do nothing more than drag the entire economy down while doing absolutely nothing to reduce the deficit.
    Taxing successful people definitely wont drag the economy down. I dont know why people, especially here, automatically think that all "successful" people own businesses or provide employment, or that successful business owners who do provide employment think that their PERSONAL income and their business income are one in the same, or that all people that make over $250k a year are "successful". They're not.

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    And lets say we actually go ahead and raise taxes on the rich. DO ANY OF YOU ACTUALLY THINK THE THE EXTRA MONEY (if there is any) ACCUMULATED WILL ACTUALLY GO TOWARD PAYING THE DEFICIT DOWN?

    IMO even i we let him go ahead and tax the rich at %50-65 there is no way that "extra" revenue will ever get put towards the deficit, thats just foolish thinking
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    I agree with that^^^

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    magical negro/photog .blank cd's Avatar
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    Hmm must not be a bad idea after all...

    That or theres a bunch of dumbass millionaires out there....

    http://www.fiscalstrength.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    Hmm must not be a bad idea after all...

    That or theres a bunch of dumbass millionaires out there....

    http://www.fiscalstrength.com/
    lmao, I would have to go with the dumbass millionaire statement. What a sham, if these people actually want to help the country and pay their "fair share" they are free to do so at any time and write a check for as much money as they would like to help reduce the debt.....Treasury Direct

    Quote Originally Posted by Treasury Direct
    How do you make a contribution to reduce the debt?

    There are two ways for you to make a contribution to reduce the debt:

    You can make a contribution online either by credit card, checking or savings account at Pay.gov
    You can write a check payable to the Bureau of the Public Debt, and in the memo section, notate that it's a Gift to reduce the Debt Held by the Public. Mail your check to:

    Attn Dept G
    Bureau of the Public Debt
    P. O. Box 2188
    Parkersburg, WV 26106-2188
    So if these "patriotic" millionaires really want to help reduce debt they already have a way to do it, and they can put in whatever amount they'd like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by -EnVus- View Post
    If it comes down to them choosing to cut Medicare,Medicaid or Social Security benefits then im willing to pay more taxes. Just don't touch those things that so many people rely on...
    You and the top 1% of income earners combined don't make about money if the govt takes 100% of all income to pay for those programs.

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    It seems like the new taxes will only hurt the little guy aka(lower class men) and nothing with change with the muti-billion getting tax breaks

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    True raising taxes won't do shit to the deficit hell even cutting programs won't. It's doing something about speending millions of dollars a day just for us to be helping Libya and other countries. When i hear we use 15 tomahawk missels at $600k a pop in a day that's our tax dollars wasted... We just have to face what our government is in denial over and that is we have spent more than we have and are u shit creek now. Best thing to do right mow is raise the deficit cap cause we are not gonna scratch the surface of it the way we are thinking and wanting to do right now with the GOP and Obama at it. They only care for them selves and integrity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by -EnVus- View Post
    Best thing to do right mow is raise the deficit cap cause we are not gonna scratch the surface of it the way we are thinking and wanting to do right now with the GOP and Obama at it.
    There's a hell of a plan, screw it just raise the debt limit and let them keep spending money like it's going out of style (which the dollar actually is) we'll just deal with it later. That seems to be working out great for us so far.

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    What is this country coming too...

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    I think the Government should give every American born man, woman and child $1,000,000 dollars. It would be cheaper than the last "stimulus" package and we'd all be RICH!!!! WHO'S WITH ME!!!!!!!!


    ~insert sarcasm~

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    Without massive cuts and reforms to the 3 major entitlement programs, SS, Medicare, medicaid, there is no amount of tax hikes and program cuts that will help. In about a decade those 3 things along with interest on our debt will cost us about what the govt brings in on a yearly basis.


    The deficit problems and debt problems currently plaguing this country are the only thing Dems and GOP have worked for in a bipartisan manner over the last decade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    Without massive cuts and reforms to the 3 major entitlement programs, SS, Medicare, medicaid, there is no amount of tax hikes and program cuts that will help. In about a decade those 3 things along with interest on our debt will cost us about what the govt brings in on a yearly basis.


    The deficit problems and debt problems currently plaguing this country are the only thing Dems and GOP have worked for in a bipartisan manner over the last decade.
    There doesnt need to be reform to entitlement programs. How bout we stop the fake "war" going on that we're spending billions of dollars on, stop making excuses like "immediate withdrawl is dangerous" yada yada yada

    problem solved

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    There doesnt need to be reform to entitlement programs.
    You've got to be joking. $60 billion+ in fraud every year and Medicare and Medicaid don't need reform? Not to mention the fact that they allow people to not be responsible and prepare themselves for the future. Didn't save enough money throughout your life to support yourself in your retirement years? No problem, here's Medicare and Social Security. What's that, still not enough money? Ok let's get you signed up for food stamps and while we're at it a free cell phone too. There's NO excuse for not being responsible and preparing for your future, NONE, it's all about personal choice and priorities.

    Also read this article from CNN Money. Article

    At the current rate by 2020 Medicare, Medicaid and SS will eat up 64% of all tax revenues, add in another 28% for interest alone on the debt and that leave only 8 cents out of every dollar of tax revenue to run the government. It's not sustainable no matter how you slice and dice it, it's just not possible.
    Last edited by Browning151; 04-21-2011 at 09:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    There doesnt need to be reform to entitlement programs. How bout we stop the fake "war" going on that we're spending billions of dollars on, stop making excuses like "immediate withdrawl is dangerous" yada yada yada

    problem solved
    All of the "fake wars" you are talking about combined dont total up to the cost of medicare, medicaid, SS and interest over the last decade. In fact, I dont even think they total up to the deficits of the last decade.


    Not saying I give much credence to this site, but according to their monitor, Iraq and Asscrackistan combined since 2001 are still half a trillion less than THIS YEARS DEFICIT ALONE.
    http://costofwar.com/en/


    another source. This one only covers iraq.
    http://usliberals.about.com/od/homel...raqNumbers.htm

    And a third source from a conservative source.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/...ke_us_not.html


    Now lets look at entitlement spending. Its about bed time so I will only list medicare.

    FY 2010, medicare budget was 510B, or just under half of Iraq, Asscrackistan, and Libya combined.

    http://dhhs.gov/asfr/ob/docbudget/20...tinbriefl.html


    Still think entitlements are not the problem?


    Are you also one of those morons that think taxing the rich is the way to prosperity?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BanginJimmy View Post
    All of the "fake wars" you are talking about combined dont total up to the cost of medicare, medicaid, SS and interest over the last decade. In fact, I dont even think they total up to the deficits of the last decade.


    Still think entitlements are not the problem?


    Are you also one of those morons that think taxing the rich is the way to prosperity?
    ONLY a trillion and change? Come on man, thats money that wouldnt have been spent had we not went over there.. Social insurance isnt going anywhere, so you cant really look at it the same way. It could be managed better. And as far as ending the bush tax cuts, it couldnt come any sooner. I think these multi-millionaires should be paying 90%. That wont happen. You'll say "oh so many jobs will be lost, it'll be bad for the economy". Why will jobs be lost? Because employers will cut back so as to keep their own profits up? Thus perpetuating the vicious cycle? Maybe the whole system needs to be re-vamped. maybe people need to stop looking out for their own damn pockets. But hey, capitalism's the american way right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    ONLY a trillion and change? Come on man, thats money that wouldnt have been spent had we not went over there.. Social insurance isnt going anywhere, so you cant really look at it the same way. It could be managed better. And as far as ending the bush tax cuts, it couldnt come any sooner. I think these multi-millionaires should be paying 90%. That wont happen. You'll say "oh so many jobs will be lost, it'll be bad for the economy". Why will jobs be lost? Because employers will cut back so as to keep their own profits up? Thus perpetuating the vicious cycle? Maybe the whole system needs to be re-vamped. maybe people need to stop looking out for their own damn pockets. But hey, capitalism's the american way right?
    I understand you really are jealous of people that are financially successful in their lives, but you really need to educate yourself on what these taxes will do.


    And yes, only a trillion and change. Less than $150B a year combined, which is less than 10% of this years deficit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    And as far as ending the bush tax cuts, it couldnt come any sooner. I think these multi-millionaires should be paying 90%. That wont happen. You'll say "oh so many jobs will be lost, it'll be bad for the economy". Why will jobs be lost? Because employers will cut back so as to keep their own profits up? Thus perpetuating the vicious cycle? Maybe the whole system needs to be re-vamped. maybe people need to stop looking out for their own damn pockets. But hey, capitalism's the american way right?
    then go to france, or greece.

    I dont mean to sound condescending, but did you just say you want to tax mulit-millionaires at 90%? are you that jealous? envious? Ok lets eliminate ALL the millionaires in the USA. Lets take all their money.

    What do you think that will do to unemployment? You cant complain about the evil rich on one hand and then expect the economy to get better. Fact is THEY DO MORE FOR THE ECONOMY THAN ANYONE ELSE. How many jobs is Bill Gates responsible for? Richard Branson? Steve Jobs? Steve Forbes? Donald Trump? Lets take all their money and throw all the people they employ away.

    I mean if they created their own wealth, why SHOULDNT they keep it. You think Donald Trump would keep employing his thousands of workers for $50,000 a year? No he does it cause it makes him wealthy, and he enjoys the perks with being "rich". he also donates millions of dollars to charities. Look at bill gates, he donates MILLIONS of dollars a year to charities. Where would that money come from if the govt took it all away?

    The fact is our society is built to have people that get ahead, innovate, make MILLIONS AND BILLIONS. You get paid based on your talent. So if you suck at life, you dont get to own a ferrari. Some people get lucky and accumulate wealth easily, some earn it through more conventional methods, some NEVER get ahead. Thats how you have a balanced society. This utopian dream is bullshit and will never happen.

    Lets say your employer lays you off tomorrow because they increase his taxes 10%. Will you be thankful then?

    I just cant believe some of the unfounded idiotic statements people make. Its easy when you make $20,000 a year to look at the guy making $200,000 a year and saying "GIVE ME MORE OF WHAT YOU HAVE". Its harder to actually try and get to his level.

    Which is what our society has become, a bunch of complainers and whiners
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    Raising taxes = lower revenue, that's as close to a fact as you can get in economics. Spending is the problem, you can argue about where cuts need to happen, but it doesn't really matter because it will never happen anyway. Raising taxes will slow the economy more, and end up increasing the deficit in the end.

    Cliffs:

    taxes will keep rising (they always have been), the deficit will keep rising (it always has been), we're all screwed. Make hey while the sun shines 'cause it won't soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cornercarver78 View Post
    Raising taxes = lower revenue, that's as close to a fact as you can get in economics. Spending is the problem.
    So I guess the government just hates revenue since they won't lower taxes. Really, it's not a fact whatsoever and it doesn't even pass the basic math test. You are saying that if taxes were at 0% and then they increased to 1%, there would somehow be a decrease in revenue? Not exactly a convincing argument.

    The truth is the effect of taxes are complicated. Taxes may be a big factor in how businesses and individuals spend their money but it sure as hell isn't the only one. Theoretically there may be some perfect tax rate that produces the maximum revenue but noone is making a claim for what that number is. They simply say lower taxes = more revenue as if there is perfect inverse correlation between tax rates and revenue from 100% all the way down to 0%.

    By the way, I agree with you that taxation alone would never come close to solving our budget problems.

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    Lets all jut agree we are screwed if you have $$ on plastic or in a bank you better invest in a safe or vault at home. Also its to late for us to try now we can't control the inevitable and thats what we all know. Shit just let Trump, win and at least we can go out with a laugh .....

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    Jimmy is spot on. All those who default to ending the wars and taxing the rich have no clue the scale or scope of the federal debt and deficit projections.

    All of the taxable income over $100,000 in this country is about $1.5 Trillion. Even taxing those incomes at 100% wouldn't fix the deficit problem this year.

    Even a 20% increase would be a drop in the bucket.

    Defense, with 3 military commitments now is about 20% of the budget, a large portion of that goes to salary, pensions, and medical care for veterans and soldiers. Only about 60% is spent on actual munitions.

    If the budget and debt problem were all the water in the Earth:

    Social Security is the Pacific.
    Medicare/medicaid is the Atlantic
    Defense is the Arctic sea
    Taxing the rich is (those over $100,000) Lake Superior.
    Discretionary is Lake Michigan

    Before people make arguments about our budget/debt woes maybe you should take a peak at the skyrocketing cost of entitlement programs. Since WWII defense spending has been on a massive decline. The only period where defense spending curbed and paced entitlement spending was during the 1980's. Since then entitlement spending has been 2-3x what defense spending is.

    Like Jimmy said, the ENTIRE military engagement in the middle east so far is about the size of this years budget deficit. The wars are peanuts.

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    I actually agree with what Oreilley said the other night:

    In 2001 (before 9/11) our budget was 1.8 Trillion. Since then we have DOUBLED our budget and ran record deficits (under Obama) despite the almost 2 times increase in govt spending have things gotten ANY better? So why can we not go back to the 2001 budget? Things were fine then, things were going well, and i think we can all agree that despite spending 2 times the money we are not any better off than we were 10 years ago.

    So fine, end the war in iraq, pull out of afghanistan, and drop libya. Then, institute a 2% sales tax on any goods or items sold. clean up the tax code , eliminate deductions that allow companies like GE to hide 14 billion dollars in profits offshores.

    There, i just solved the deficit problem.

    That way you can keep your entitlement programs, and we all pay more in taxes (2%) , all wars are ended, and the "evil" corporations lose any tax shelters they have. In exchange for that, i dont want to hear any bitching about 1) Unemployment 2) No excuses if we are attacked or terrorism happens 3) class warfare

    Just as easy as it is to claim the "wealthy" need to pay "their fair share", why dont we ask the poor who dont pay any in taxes to also pay THEIR fair share.
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    You're distorting the argument. Lowering taxes increases revenue because it increases taxable income and adds jobs which adds more taxpayers to the system. That's how it works.

    Worked for Reagan and bush 43.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vteckidd View Post
    You're distorting the argument. Lowering taxes increases revenue because it increases taxable income and adds jobs which adds more taxpayers to the system. That's how it works.

    Worked for Reagan and bush 43.
    How am I distorting the argument? Not only are you using a mere 2 points of data as proof of some immutable law of economics but your conclusion comes with the unstated assumption that revenue is a perfect indicator of how good the current tax policy is. Is it reasonable to say that if we get less revenue this year that it must be because of Obama's tax policies (which are pretty much the same as Bushes) and the fact we are in the deepest economic recession in 80 years is irrelevant? Can you show a statistically significant correlation between revenue and tax rates for every president or just the ones you cherry pick?

    Correlation is not causation...period.

    If less taxes always brings in more revenue, explain to me why we shouldn't have a 1% tax rate for everyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bu villain View Post
    How am I distorting the argument? Not only are you using a mere 2 points of data as proof of some immutable law of economics but your conclusion comes with the unstated assumption that revenue is a perfect indicator of how good the current tax policy is. Is it reasonable to say that if we get less revenue this year that it must be because of Obama's tax policies (which are pretty much the same as Bushes) and the fact we are in the deepest economic recession in 80 years is irrelevant? Can you show a statistically significant correlation between revenue and tax rates for every president or just the ones you cherry pick?
    its cause i didnt have time to type up a 10000 word response so i was brief.

    You cant compare the tax rates of an early NON industrial time period (30s, 40s,50s) to todays economic environment. We are much more global, much more involved and invested, and the market is MUCH more complex than it was 50-60-70-80 years ago. Define WEALTH in the 50s vs today.

    Lets look at several examples:

    FDR through his massive amounts of spending, only worsened the depression, not make it better.

    Jimmy Carter with his price freezing and horrible foreign policy caused us massive inflation, which, Reagan through tax cuts , turned around. We did have deficit spending under reagan but we got ECONOMIC GROWTH out of it, from Obamas spending we have not gotten the same thing. If anything we have gotten a retraction, much like FDR.

    Bush Jr inherited a recession from the dotcom bubble under clinton. Bush Tax cuts actually i believe worked because revenue was at an all time HIGH, and we had HISTORIC unemployment for 7 3/4 years till the housing collapse.

    If cutting taxes DOESNT work, and im ONLY talking about economic growth and job creation, how come the only instances of RAISING taxes in the last 30 years (carter, Obama) have destroyed the economy, and the only 2 instances of CUTTING taxes, has spurred unprecendented economic growth? Thats not a sarcastic question, im serious, those are the facts.

    If less taxes always brings in more revenue, explain to me why we shouldn't have a 1% tax rate for everyone.
    That is a distortion of the argument. Let me be more clear. THe notion of raising taxes in a sluggish and slow contracting economy kills jobs, period. At a time when small business is hurting, it is not smart to increase their costs if you want them to invest and hire workers. So if we had 4% unemployment, a low national debt, and you wanted to raise taxes, i wouldnt be as against it as i am now.

    The fact is there is a balance between cutting taxes and increasing revenues. its a proportional argument. You COULD cut taxes to 1% if you could feed millions more people into the system, which is my point. But that is highly unlikely to happen or we would never get to that point because of inflation, and the way our society functions. You cant have everyone making 100,000 a year. I mean you can, but that $100,000 a year would be like making $20,000 a year by rule of inflation, supply and demand.

    IE What we DO have economic data on is what i described above. Bush and Reagan cut taxes and actually collected more revenue, because by cutting taxes they allowed more people to be hired, which in turn meant more people with taxable income, and higher profits for corporations and small business meant more money collected in taxes.
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    Call me muthafukin Robin hood, cause i wanna take from the rich and give to the poor ....if you make more than you can pay more no bitching about it.
    I'm not saying im rich or poor but either way id be willing to pay more if i made lots of green a year.

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