Economy

[blaknoize]

So... this country is actually turning around in these compacted 4yrs of Obama office. No one is talking positive about the fact that there are jobs becoming available or that the Jones is above 11k or that those in life or death need can FINALLY get insurance and/or treatment for the sake of life. (Regardless of its relative cost.)

No, the only things that are floating around is the cost of the insurance and the fact that its Obama, who has actually (more or less) changed the tide of America just enough to avoid epic failure. If the man had true office powers instead of people being all fukin scared, we may be even better off.

I'm just disaapointed that the ONLY negative thing that should be brought up that NOT A SOUL pays any attention to is the extension of the Patriot Act, signed by the most amazing President we're ever had. George Bush, oh no... American doesnt care about our Constitutional rights, only about the cost of healthcare. They can still believe that we are in a war on TERROR when we were clearly after one resource (well Bush was) Oil.

If your gonna ream someone, ream them for the proper reason and Obama shoulda been railed hard for that smooth move.

[David88vert]

The recession might be officially over, but jobs are still being shed: http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/12/news...ions/index.htm
http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/07/news...ring/index.htm
We are now deeper in debt, and the jobs created are lower paying than the ones lost.
http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2010/...iple-a-rating/

Healthcare? http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/13/news...card/index.htm

You believe that Obama has turned the country around? I believe that we are still in trouble, and that no one can turn it around overnight. It took years to create the problems, and it will take years to solve them.

Patriot Act - I agree with you completely. Constitutional rights should not be trampled on - ever.

[Browning151]

I agree with you on the Patriot Act as well, however this administration and congress is spending us into oblivion and there's no indications of them slowing down. Obamacare was not passed for the good of the people, it was passed to buy votes; just another gov't handout. It's been steadily reported that jobs are still being lost, even though supposedly the recession ended last year. I call shenanigans on it being over, there are still far too many people unemployed or underemployed and jobs are not being added at a rate to sustain a recovery.

[5speed]

Yes, there have been jobs created. In Ga they are positions that call for specific expertise and/or training. The federal government is even getting rid of thousands upon thousands of people bc they couldnt straighten out their priorities in the first place. I think the blame goes on everyone in the US who has allowed our country to become so dependent on the Federal Government and let too much power shift to the executive branch. Checks and Balances my ass.

[Browning151]

Yes, there have been jobs created. In Ga they are positions that call for specific expertise and/or training. The federal government is even getting rid of thousands upon thousands of people bc they couldnt straighten out their priorities in the first place. I think the blame goes on everyone in the US who has allowed our country to become so dependent on the Federal Government and let too much power shift to the executive branch. Checks and Balances my ass.

Too many "social" programs; welfare, food stamps, EBT, WIC, medicaid and all the other bullshit gov't handouts.

[blaknoize]

David, we are in a fractional reserve banking world here. No one will ever be able to pay down a debt (its borrowed at interest, or well, MADE at interest) and sold to our government. I'm not focused on the debt, debt will always exist and MUST exist for this current type of "value" system we use to function. It has no real value since it isnt backed by anything but the amount of money "created" therefore debt must rise. Seeing as out paper money is Unconstitutional and value-less since the very banks that create our money managed to take all the coinage that is Constitutional away from us.

I was just speaking on the fact that at least this states economy has turned around quite a bit. Work is available here for the most part.

I also disregard the info I receive from CNN, FOX, CBS, ABC, they're as truthful and trustworthy as me telling u that I'll buy each of u a car and pay for all expenses related to that car for 8yrs, including gas and insurance and accidents.

And NOTE: I SAID TURNING AROUND, u non-sentence readers. It hasnt turned around yet, its currently on track to turning around.

[David88vert]

David, we are in a fractional reserve banking world here. No one will ever be able to pay down a debt (its borrowed at interest, or well, MADE at interest) and sold to our government. I'm not focused on the debt, debt will always exist and MUST exist for this current type of "value" system we use to function. It has no real value since it isnt backed by anything but the amount of money "created" therefore debt must rise. Seeing as out paper money is Unconstitutional and value-less since the very banks that create our money managed to take all the coinage that is Constitutional away from us.

I was just speaking on the fact that at least this states economy has turned around quite a bit. Work is available here for the most part.

I also disregard the info I receive from CNN, FOX, CBS, ABC, they're as truthful and trustworthy as me telling u that I'll buy each of u a car and pay for all expenses related to that car for 8yrs, including gas and insurance and accidents.


And NOTE: I SAID TURNING AROUND, u non-sentence readers. It hasnt turned around yet, its currently on track to turning around.

Since, you state that you are disregarding information from news organizations, where exactly are you relying on as truthful sources for information? So far, you have not stated any sources, so we are left with assuming that your earlier post was a baseless opinion.

Since you wanted to point out the local situation, perhaps you would prefer the Atlanta Business Chronicle and the White House as sources:
http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlan...9/daily10.html
http://www.whitehouse.gov/administra...report/summary

GA has received 6.8 billion so far from the Recovery Act - and we have had unemployment continue to rise. now, GA's cut has topped out, and will decline to 10 percent less than the average expenditure. You will see stimulus jobs end shortly locally.
http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlan...16/story3.html

I will paint this in the most favorable light for Obama as possible.
The Administration continues to talk about a few million jobs "created or saved," the latter being not accidentally unmeasurable, while -- back in the real world -- Americans know that the job market is a disaster. Furthermore, statistics covering the jobs that we know have been created show that they were no bargain: for example, in July a Government Accountability Office report said that the Department of Energy used stimulus money to create 10,018 jobs at an average cost of $194,213 per job. Not only is it hard to imagine how jobs cleaning up contaminated mining and military sites are worth an average $194,213 per employee, but it also must be noted that such jobs are inherently temporary, making the cost of these jobs even more unjustifiable. From the report:
"As of March 2010, nearly one-third of Recovery Act projects were facing cost or schedule difficulties or both -- despite DOE's efforts to choose low-risk, straightforward, shovel-ready projects for funding and to increase oversight -- and overall spending was somewhat slower than expected.… Officials attributed these difficulties to technical, regulatory, safety, and contracting problems -- some of the same issues that have challenged DOE's project management in the past."

Another case of stimulus money spending - The LA Department of Transportation received $40 million to create jobs. Nine jobs. That's $4.4 million dollars per job. Where do you think that money will come from?
Another department of the City of Los Angeles did a much better job of creating and saving jobs. The Department of Public Works spent $70 million to create seven jobs and save seven additional jobs. Now, these jobs were a true Obamanomics bargain. They came in at $1.5 million per job.

As for turning around, Obama has seen the sharpest drop in job approval of any president post-WWII president other than Jimmy Carter.

[ISAtlanta300]

David, we are in a fractional reserve banking world here. No one will ever be able to pay down a debt (its borrowed at interest, or well, MADE at interest) and sold to our government. I'm not focused on the debt, debt will always exist and MUST exist for this current type of "value" system we use to function. It has no real value since it isnt backed by anything but the amount of money "created" therefore debt must rise. Seeing as out paper money is Unconstitutional and value-less since the very banks that create our money managed to take all the coinage that is Constitutional away from us.

I was just speaking on the fact that at least this states economy has turned around quite a bit. Work is available here for the most part.

I also disregard the info I receive from CNN, FOX, CBS, ABC, they're as truthful and trustworthy as me telling u that I'll buy each of u a car and pay for all expenses related to that car for 8yrs, including gas and insurance and accidents.

And NOTE: I SAID TURNING AROUND, u non-sentence readers. It hasnt turned around yet, its currently on track to turning around.

So the solution to debt is MORE debt? No wonder you admire the current administration. We are now over 1 TRILLION in Debt.

Do you really think that none of this debt affects you?

Someone has to pay it. Can you guess who?

Hint: Look in the mirror.

[bu villain]

So the solution to debt is MORE debt? No wonder you admire the current administration. We are now over 1 TRILLION in Debt.

Do you really think that none of this debt affects you?

Someone has to pay it. Can you guess who?

Hint: Look in the mirror.

I'm not saying debt is a good thing but exactly how has the national debt affected you? What do you think would be the effects of the US defaulting on its debts? National debt is very much different from personal debt but people seem to treat it as if they were the same.

[Browning151]

I'm not saying debt is a good thing but exactly how has the national debt affected you? What do you think would be the effects of the US defaulting on its debts? National debt is very much different from personal debt but people seem to treat it as if they were the same.

Do you really believe that national debt doesn't affect you? Someone has to pay for that debt, be it through taxes or printing more money or borrowing more money and either way those all affect you. Higher taxes means less in your pocket, printing money means more inflation which means your dollar is worth less and obviously borrowing money to finance debt just creates more debt. Either way, you're paying for it.

At what point does "it's turning around" or "it's starting to get better" become ineffective as excuses? When do we start expecting things to actually be better? I'm personally tired of hearing about the massive amounts of spending and all we hear is "it's starting to work" etc. etc.

[blaknoize]

I coulda swore I commented on David lastweek but I guess the server failed on me??

I shouldnt of mentioned much else in the OP but that was just how I felt. I am however now speaking of the Debt itself. Of course it will be "terrible" if we default, but what else is a country to do if the entire system is set to fail? Our Constitution states that only coinage should be used as a montary system, not paper bills. Somehow the special interest companies and corporations managed to take hold of that and create their own system thru the inaction of the Federal Reserve Act.

You cant "pay back" money that is borrowed at interest if the money itself never existed in the first place till requested. The Federal Reserve "makes" the money and sells it to the Government AT INTEREST, what dont you guys see wrong with that?

Say I have no money and Bu asks for $20 for whatever possible reason. I say yes and I charge him $5 (interest) for wanting it. He now owe's me $25 at his request. Now automatically there is a problem, how can HE make more than $25 off of money he and I never had?

Simple, I print a lil more because SOMEONE will have to give him more than $25 to pay me back and make a profit. I give someone else say $50 at interest with a $5 interest fee and say that person buys Bu's item for $50. Bu makes $50, pays me back $25 and his loan is now paid in full. But... the other guy I gave $50 to CANNOT pay me back $55 and is destined to default since he will never be able to make $55 unless, I make MORE money and loan it to another person. But since I sell (loan) it AT INTEREST, that next person cannot possibly expect to pay me back in full.

That's how this works, our Government cannot pay it back, we cannot pay it back. Yes its ballooned to 1trillion, but also, with the more money in circulation the larger the next loan will have to be in order to pay back the interest owed on the pervious loan. (Unlike personal debt, which u cant just ask for another loan to pay back a loan, which is weak, cuz I'd do it my whole life and ball outta control.) Which is why the amount is SOOOO extra high and all unimaginable because no one seems to understand "debt" and "loans" and anything about the Federal Reserve.

[David88vert]

The United States racked up a $1.29 trillion deficit in fiscal year 2010, the federal government said Friday.
The deficit for fiscal 2010, which ended Sept. 30, represented 8.9% of the economy.
The federal government in fiscal year 2010 paid $414 billion in interest on the country's cumulative debt acquired over the years. Thanks to continued low interest rates, however, that's only 8% more than the interest paid in 2009, even though the country's accumulated debt owed to the public rose by nearly 20% year over year.
The biggest source of fiscal concern remains the so-called structural deficit, which is made up primarily of spending on the big three entitlement programs. That structural deficit will continue to balloon faster than the economy grows long after the current downturn has ended.
The Government Accountability Office projects that by the end of this decade, the vast majority of all federal tax revenue will be swallowed up by just four things: Interest payments on the country's debt, and the payment of Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security benefits.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/15/news...icit/index.htm

The reason that the debt is so high is spending. Until the Congress cuts spending, our country's situation will not improve. Fair Tax, flat tax, and any other form of tax collection will not solve the basic problem - spending too much money at a federal level. In order to reduce national spending and debt creation, we have to limit what we choose to spend on. Things like retirement and health care should be addressed at a state of local level, not federal. Education should be at a state level, not federal. People need to practice personal responsibility, not rely on the government to bail them out.

[Browning151]

I coulda swore I commented on David lastweek but I guess the server failed on me??

I shouldnt of mentioned much else in the OP but that was just how I felt. I am however now speaking of the Debt itself. Of course it will be "terrible" if we default, but what else is a country to do if the entire system is set to fail? Our Constitution states that only coinage should be used as a montary system, not paper bills. Somehow the special interest companies and corporations managed to take hold of that and create their own system thru the inaction of the Federal Reserve Act.

You cant "pay back" money that is borrowed at interest if the money itself never existed in the first place till requested. The Federal Reserve "makes" the money and sells it to the Government AT INTEREST, what dont you guys see wrong with that?

Say I have no money and Bu asks for $20 for whatever possible reason. I say yes and I charge him $5 (interest) for wanting it. He now owe's me $25 at his request. Now automatically there is a problem, how can HE make more than $25 off of money he and I never had?

Simple, I print a lil more because SOMEONE will have to give him more than $25 to pay me back and make a profit. I give someone else say $50 at interest with a $5 interest fee and say that person buys Bu's item for $50. Bu makes $50, pays me back $25 and his loan is now paid in full. But... the other guy I gave $50 to CANNOT pay me back $55 and is destined to default since he will never be able to make $55 unless, I make MORE money and loan it to another person. But since I sell (loan) it AT INTEREST, that next person cannot possibly expect to pay me back in full.

That's how this works, our Government cannot pay it back, we cannot pay it back. Yes its ballooned to 1trillion, but also, with the more money in circulation the larger the next loan will have to be in order to pay back the interest owed on the pervious loan. (Unlike personal debt, which u cant just ask for another loan to pay back a loan, which is weak, cuz I'd do it my whole life and ball outta control.) Which is why the amount is SOOOO extra high and all unimaginable because no one seems to understand "debt" and "loans" and anything about the Federal Reserve.

So suppose that I borrow $20 from you with a $5 interest charge; I then take that $20 and purchase enough supplies to make 45 items to sell for $1 a piece. I've now taken your loaned $20 and turned it into $45. I can now pay you the $20 I borrowed, your $5 interest charge and I still have $20 in my pocket. I'll now take my $20 that belongs to me and repeat the process to continue to make items and sell them, all the while increasing the amount of money I have that has no debt tied to it.

Keeping in mind that both my example and yours are ENTIRELY oversimplified examples of economics, but it sounds like to me that you've based your example on the fact that all money is borrowed. The federal gov't can run without the massive borrowing and money printing that is currently the norm. The problem lies within the politicians themselves mostly, as they see their number 1 job when they get to Washington is to get re-elected not to govern by the constitution. Most of them are too busy buying votes through pork spending and entitlement programs to really understand or care why we are in the mess we're in. If they were to actually cut spending (and by cut I mean spend less than the previous fiscal year not "we're going to slow the rate of increase", as has become the definition of spending cut now), eliminate pork spending (theres no need for gov't spending on projects like remodeling national park visitor centers or other useless spending in a defense bill), and change the tax code to a more favorable one for corporations (jobs stop getting outsourced overseas due to high costs of tax compliance) you would see this economy grow tremendously. However, you won't see many politicians willing to do these things as it takes away too much vote buying power from them.

[bu villain]

Do you really believe that national debt doesn't affect you? Someone has to pay for that debt, be it through taxes or printing more money or borrowing more money and either way those all affect you. Higher taxes means less in your pocket, printing money means more inflation which means your dollar is worth less and obviously borrowing money to finance debt just creates more debt. Either way, you're paying for it.

I was really paying devil's advocate here because it's not as simple as people make it out to be. First of all, about half of the US debt is held by the US government itself (Social security, government pensions, etc.) Another quarter is held by domestic entities (states, pension funds, mutual funds, banks, etc). Most everything else is held by foreign countries. Btw, despite what people say, China is not the biggest foreign lender to the US. China only owns about 4% of the US debt.

Also, some of these debts may never come due. Many of these debts are based on estimates of benefits and costs of things in the future which could easily change.

As far as paying off these debts there are a number of ways to do it without higher taxes or printing more money. The first way is to run the government with less money than we pull in from taxes. I know it seems unlikely but we did it under Clinton so we can do it again. Next, we can reduce benefits (e.g., raising social security age, etc). For foreign debts we can pay with information, policy agreements, weapons, or a variety of other non cash assets. These are just a few ways we can eliminate our debt without any tax increases or inflation.

So should we ignore debt? Of course not, but it is also disingenous to claim it will necessarily lead to hyperinflation or huge tax increases.

[blaknoize]

So suppose that I borrow $20 from you with a $5 interest charge; I then take that $20 and purchase enough supplies to make 45 items to sell for $1 a piece. I've now taken your loaned $20 and turned it into $45. I can now pay you the $20 I borrowed, your $5 interest charge and I still have $20 in my pocket. I'll now take my $20 that belongs to me and repeat the process to continue to make items and sell them, all the while increasing the amount of money I have that has no debt tied to it.

Keeping in mind that both my example and yours are ENTIRELY oversimplified examples of economics...

You have to get the money from somewhere, u and I both dont just come with money and since the "money" we do have is not coinage in gold or silver (which is the Constitutions wholly acceptable form of cash) it can only be borrowed. So for you to make that $45 off of whomever to give my my interest back, they also had to accept that cash at interest from the source. The source in this case is the Bank, being me. No one can "earn" any more money than the money in circulation. If I'm the creator of that money then I own it and I'm charging an interest which cannot be paid so that I will ALWAYS have an indebted crowd.

Now if YOU and someone else make a loan between each other he or you can pay back the interest (if any is charged between u two) but neither of you can pay back the sources interest in full to the bank.

[BanginJimmy]

I was really paying devil's advocate here because it's not as simple as people make it out to be. First of all, about half of the US debt is held by the US government itself (Social security, government pensions, etc.) Another quarter is held by domestic entities (states, pension funds, mutual funds, banks, etc). Most everything else is held by foreign countries. Btw, despite what people say, China is not the biggest foreign lender to the US. China only owns about 4% of the US debt.

The largest holders of us debt:
15. Taiwan - 126.9B
14. Hong Kong - 151.8B
13. Caribbean banking centers - 153.2B
12. Brazil - 164.3B
11. Depository Institutions - 206.6B
10. Insurance Companies - 235.7B
9. Oil Exporters - 239.3B
8. United Kingdom - 321.2B
7. Pension Funds - 513.1B
6. State and Local Governments - 531.3B
5. Mutual Funds - 663.9B
4. Japan 795.5B
3. China - 900.2B
2. Other Investors/Savings Bonds 1.193T
1. Federal Reserve and Intragovernmental Holdings 5.259T


China owns about 1.051T in US debt. Not 4%. That number is even higher if you include Taiwan, which is technically China.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/29880401/The_...t_Debt?slide=1

Also, some of these debts may never come due. Many of these debts are based on estimates of benefits and costs of things in the future which could easily change.

99% of these things will continue to rise, not fall. SS IOU's and pension fund sp[ending is going to balloon in the next decade with the retirement of the baby boomers.

As far as paying off these debts there are a number of ways to do it without higher taxes or printing more money. The first way is to run the government with less money than we pull in from taxes. I know it seems unlikely but we did it under Clinton so we can do it again. Next, we can reduce benefits (e.g., raising social security age, etc).

Clinton worked very well with the GOP Congress he had, maybe Obama will also make the massive turn towards the center when GOP takes both houses in a couple weeks, just like Clinton did. A little food for thought. I need to look around some more because there is a better article out there with a much better breakdown, but you can get the jist here.

If spending is simply capped at the current level with a hard freeze, the budget is balanced by 2016. If we limit spending growth to 1 percent each year, the budget is balanced in 2017. And if we allow 2 percent annual spending growth — letting the budget keep pace with inflation, the budget balances in 2020.

For foreign debts we can pay with weapons, or a variety of other non cash assets.

Who is going to buy these weapons that we give away if the govt isnt going to use cash?

So should we ignore debt? Of course not, but it is also disingenous to claim it will necessarily lead to hyperinflation or huge tax increases.

The huge tax increases are set to kick in on Jan 1. At least the first round of them are when the Bush tax cuts expire. Hyperinflation is going to happen unless the fed reserve quits printing money.

[BanginJimmy]

Our Constitution states that only coinage should be used as a montary system, not paper bills

I didnt bother reading the rest of your post because it simply does not represent reality, but this did strike me.

You are completely wrong about this.

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

The phrase "to coin money", doesnt mean only coins are allowed. To present day, printing money is still refered to as coining money.

[Browning151]

The first way is to run the government with less money than we pull in from taxes. I know it seems unlikely but we did it under Clinton so we can do it again.

There's not a snowballs chance in hell that will happen with the current administration, or political climate altogether for that matter.

Next, we can reduce benefits (e.g., raising social security age, etc).

I completely agree with reducing gov't handouts.

For foreign debts we can pay with information, policy agreements, weapons, or a variety of other non cash assets.

A feasible option for many, but maybe not all foreign debts.

These are just a few ways we can eliminate our debt without any tax increases or inflation.

With the current political climate in this country these ways are nearly impossible to achieve, even though they are some of the only ways to fix our current problems.

So should we ignore debt? Of course not, but it is also disingenous to claim it will necessarily lead to hyperinflation or huge tax increases.

Should we continue on our current path, those are only a couple of the consequences.

Edit: I just saw BanginJimmy's comments as well, those spending numbers are entirely achievable if we cut all the garbage spending currently going on.

[blaknoize]

I didnt bother reading the rest of your post because it simply does not represent reality, but this did strike me.

You are completely wrong about this.



The phrase "to coin money", doesnt mean only coins are allowed. To present day, printing money is still refered to as coining money.

Let me edit this and say, its just a bit further down in that section you pulled your info from.

[blaknoize]

Section. 10. No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
So again, you go and tell me that the Constitution states that "to Coin" means to "create paper money."

From your same page. The same is listed at the following sites as well as it is all in the Constitution:
http://www.believeallthings.com/567/...er-in-payment/
http://www.constitution.org/constit_.htm
http://topics.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei

Here for whatever reason: http://www.newswithviews.com/brownfi...ownfield67.htm "Today in America, we are being systematically robbed of our property because we have allowed the Federal Reserve to flood our banks with fiat, worthless paper money. There is actually a law against paper money but nobody seems to know about it. The Supreme law of the land is the US Constitution, which stated in Article I Section 10: Individual states are “not allowed to make any things but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts.” The Constitution also states that “Congress has the power to COIN money and regulate the value thereof.” Our Founding Fathers knew how a central bank printing paper money would collapse our economy."

Here also: http://www.jbs.org/blog/gold-and-sil...per-money.html

EVEN Wikipedia lists it under United States Tender:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender

Or for simple clarification from this site:
http://www.safehaven.com/article/103...nd-silver-coin
Article I, Section 8, Clause 5: The Congress shall have Power…To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures. [8]

Article I, Section 10, Clause 1: No State shall…coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debt. [9]

A section on this site displays it quite clearly: http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1157122920.php

[bu villain]

The largest holders of us debt:

Thanks for updating these numbers. I guess mine were a couple years old. However the point still stands that the large majority of our debt is owed to ourselves. I am not pointing this out to say that the debt doesn't matter, only to be clear about how much we really owe and to whom.

99% of these things will continue to rise, not fall. SS IOU's and pension fund sp[ending is going to balloon in the next decade with the retirement of the baby boomers.

This is based on the assumption that we won't change the rules. Even the "socialistic" France just recently uped the age of their retirement benefits. If they can do it in the face of violent protests, I think we can too.

Who is going to buy these weapons that we give away if the govt isnt going to use cash?

I'm not sure what you mean. If we owe China 1T dollars, we don't have to pay in cash necessarily. Instead we can give China currently existing technology that we agree is equivalent to 1T dollars and thus no inflationary affects. They may prefer that because many nations keep US dollars so they don't want to make us print lots of new dollars thus decreasing the value of the dollars in their possession.

[bu villain]

There's not a snowballs chance in hell that will happen with the current administration, or political climate altogether for that matter.

I agree with your thoughts about the current political climate. Even though both sides want to extend the tax cuts for most Americans, they can't even pass a bill to do that. Shameful.

I completely agree with reducing gov't handouts.

Sorry but I hate that loaded word "handouts". I pay into SS, I pay FICA taxes, etc. If I recieve money from these government programs, it's not a handout because I paid into them in the first place.

With the current political climate in this country these ways are nearly impossible to achieve, even though they are some of the only ways to fix our current problems.

So you feel hyperinflation is politically viable? Look at the huge outcry against gov spending right now when we are experiencing 1-2% inflation. Imagine what it would be like if we started seeing 10% or more inflation.

[BanginJimmy]

Section. 10. No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
So again, you go and tell me that the Constitution states that "to Coin" means to "create paper money."

Your own quote proves you wrong. No STATE shall . . . This section applies to the states, not the federal govt.

Again, coining money means everything from coins to paper dollars.

From your same page. The same is listed at the following sites as well as it is all in the Constitution:
http://www.believeallthings.com/567/...er-in-payment/
http://www.constitution.org/constit_.htm
http://topics.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei

Here for whatever reason: http://www.newswithviews.com/brownfi...ownfield67.htm "Today in America, we are being systematically robbed of our property because we have allowed the Federal Reserve to flood our banks with fiat, worthless paper money. There is actually a law against paper money but nobody seems to know about it. The Supreme law of the land is the US Constitution, which stated in Article I Section 10: Individual states are “not allowed to make any things but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts.” The Constitution also states that “Congress has the power to COIN money and regulate the value thereof.” Our Founding Fathers knew how a central bank printing paper money would collapse our economy."

Articles and sections applying specificly to the states do not affect the federal govt. They only apply to state govt's.

The argument you have has nothing to do with paper money, but with the elimination of the gold standard.

[Browning151]

Sorry but I hate that loaded word "handouts". I pay into SS, I pay FICA taxes, etc. If I recieve money from these government programs, it's not a handout because I paid into them in the first place.

Raising the SS retirement age is not a problem, I agree with that. Gov't handouts to me are the EBT, Section 8, W.I.C. and SNAP type programs. I don't disagree completely with temporary assistance programs, they should provide for basic necessities and nothing more. Handouts to me are the programs that people get on and then just live on them for years and years with no intent to get off them. I should have been more clear with that.

So you feel hyperinflation is politically viable? Look at the huge outcry against gov spending right now when we are experiencing 1-2% inflation. Imagine what it would be like if we started seeing 10% or more inflation.

I was agreeing with the points you made of how we could fix the problem without taxes or inflation, but noting that they are nearly impossible with the current political climate as well as the mindset of many of those in the electorate. I'm not saying hyperinflation is politically viable, but if we continue on the current path of spending and the rate that we are adding to the national debt without changes being made it's inevitable, the current levels just aren't sustainable no matter how you slice it.

[blaknoize]

I knew u would run with that STATE word. The Federal Reserve is not STATE nor a Federal or even partial Congress monitored. You can run with "state" all u want but if u read anything it will clear ur clogged narrow minded "politicial" self.

And PAPER anything is not explicitly listed anywhere in the Constitution or Federalist Papers. Coining is not Papering.

Seeing as: Section. 8. The Congress shall have Power To... coin no State shall or for that matter a private business(es) shall have the power to create (coin) money. The Constitution is the Supreme law of the land, nothing other than the Congress has the power TO (anything) that is listed with respect to this topic.

You will eventually point to the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. Yes it passed, and we also all know who was behind it (Rothchild, Rockefeller,Morgan) its not very hard to equate. But to you or to most of us, its "cool" because its already part of our Law System. It isnt cool with me.

[BanginJimmy]

I knew u would run with that STATE word. The Federal Reserve is not STATE nor a Federal or even partial Congress monitored. You can run with "state" all u want but if u read anything it will clear ur clogged narrow minded "politicial" self.

And PAPER anything is not explicitly listed anywhere in the Constitution or Federalist Papers. Coining is not Papering.

Seeing as: Section. 8. The Congress shall have Power To... coin no State shall or for that matter a private business(es) shall have the power to create (coin) money. The Constitution is the Supreme law of the land, nothing other than the Congress has the power TO (anything) that is listed with respect to this topic.

You will eventually point to the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. Yes it passed, and we also all know who was behind it (Rothchild, Rockefeller,Morgan) its not very hard to equate. But to you or to most of us, its "cool" because its already part of our Law System. It isnt cool with me.

You are right, I was going to bring up the federal reserve act and its not that I disagree so much it is that it is pretty much a made up issue. Do you really want to walk into best buy with 1k worth of $1 gold coins to buy a new computer or TV?

Your real issue is with the elimination of the gold standard. You are confusing the instrument (coin, paper, plastic) with the mechanism (gold standard, fiat system). Even with the federal reserve controlling monetary policy, if we were still using the gold standard their powers would be limited to issuing currency based on a solid, worldwide system of measures. In this case, it would be world price of gold and silver.

[blaknoize]

Also, the gold standard was elminated with the Federal Reserve Act. I cant say with true certainty but I do know that if at the very LEAST our dollar was worth nearly a whole dollar nowadays the cost of a home in ANY area wouldnt exceed 10 to 30 times the average income of a person.

Nor would a car have to cost 20k for a "basic" form of transporation. Its not even an ALMOST like situation, the dollar actually and should obviously be marked as "IS" worth less than it was just 30 or so years ago. Get u a 70's car for what, $6700? Ten yrs prior get roughly the same type for $5700?

This is my view of the world I suppose:
And you cant say that the technology incorporated into that car is more expensive. Because we clearly see that Moore's Law is correct and technology is almost always on point to upgrade and slightly older technology costs less to use. As things get better they should, in reality, get cheaper. New/better materials require less cost overall to maintain. Roofs, wheel bearing, windows, seals, fuses, batteries, power supplies (if left to develop) and so on.

But not in this monetary system, its all about debt and how to create more of it, so there is less "freedom" for a person in their lives. Just work work work, both man and woman have to work to own a home that a single damn man could own 50yrs ago doing the same damn job.

The dollar is devalued, by who? Not "We the People", not even our Government (whether or not they are involved) but by the banking system or better yet the Central Banks and this setup we're thoroughly involved in and are to ignorant to read and educate ourselves about to help out damn selves out.

[blaknoize]

Even with the federal reserve controlling monetary policy, if we were still using the gold standard their powers would be limited to issuing currency based on a solid, worldwide system of measures. In this case, it would be world price of gold and silver.

I maybe running the two together, I'm not sure of that I need to educate myself a bit more. However, if we were to have the two types of monetary systems "compete" the gold/silver standard in coinage vs fiat, gold would win because the actual cost would either be lower or constant. It takes no more work to create anything now than what it used to take in the past. Like the computer industry in particular. And you can place a value on the coin for the amount of gold/silver IN that coin. You can carry 2 $500 coins to pick up a PC, our wallets may be redesigned and so on. But it isnt hard to slightly restructure somethings.

[BanginJimmy]

Inflation is caused by any number of things from imports/exports to the price of tea in china. You will never find a single cause for inflation because of the global economy we are in now. It could be minute blips from a dozen different, otherwise insignificant, countries that that snowball into a global emergency, or it could be a complete meltdown of a major sector of a major economy. In the end the result is the same. Tax receipts go down, sovereign spending goes up, debt gets out of control and before you know it, countries are printing money like crazy and devaluing their own currency to prevent a collapse.

In the US, we have had bubble after bubble after bubble causing huge rises and drops in the stock markets, real estate, and server space. In the 80's it was the S&L boom, then bust. Some people made huge sums of money in a very short amount of time and other lost huge sums just as quick. In the 90's it was the dot coms that burst onto the scene and the same things happened. In the 00's it was real estate. The only thing these 3 things have in common is the fed govt dumping massive amounts of additional cash into the system to stabilize it, but the problem is, they never pull that money back out of circulation because of the run away spending. If spending was under control, the fed govt could simply remove a small portion of tax money from the system every year to increase the value of the currency.

[BanginJimmy]

And you can place a value on the coin for the amount of gold/silver IN that coin. You can carry 2 $500 coins to pick up a PC, our wallets may be redesigned and so on. But it isnt hard to slightly restructure somethings.

I looked quickly for a better source but couldnt find one. It seems that the US has been using paper money since the 1790's. It was created to standardize the currency and it was issued by the First Bank of the United States.



read under Banks Funding and Privileges.

http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/c....first_bank.us

[blaknoize]

But u know this bank was desolved due to all the problems it seemed to create, particularly with inflation and the over-creation of money. Which is where the newly created "Federal Reserve Act" showed up to do it all over again. But since America in general has forgotten the lessons of the past and the reasoning in us leaving Great Britain in the first place (or at least for the most part) was to do with value-less paper money and the indebtedness (which isnt a word I think) that everyone but the "rich" had on their plates just for being there.

That is what will happen to us Jimmy, if we dont read up and get this together. I mean... it wont happen to "us" and it may not happen to our kids kids, but if we keep it up like this there will again, be a few ballers and then the rest of us, working to live, not working to grow and I really dont want to know that I could of changed it by simply speaking on it.

[David88vert]

According to Warren Buffett, you could take all the gold that's ever been mined, and it would fill a cube 67 feet in each direction. Do you honestly think that you could make enough gold coins out of that for everyone in the world? Its not possible. The gold standard is very different than using gold coins. What about silver? It tarnishes easily and quickly which adds to another difficulty - fraud control. Its not that complicated to produce fake gold and silver coins - and then you are right back to a worthless currency, as it can be devalued quickly. The gold standard allowed them to change the currency form and values, as they wished, so they utilized it. Paper money was the obvious choice.

[bu villain]

Raising the SS retirement age is not a problem, I agree with that. Gov't handouts to me are the EBT, Section 8, W.I.C. and SNAP type programs. I don't disagree completely with temporary assistance programs, they should provide for basic necessities and nothing more. Handouts to me are the programs that people get on and then just live on them for years and years with no intent to get off them. I should have been more clear with that.

Thanks for clarifying...I wont start discussing all these programs lest we get too far off topic.

I was agreeing with the points you made of how we could fix the problem without taxes or inflation, but noting that they are nearly impossible with the current political climate as well as the mindset of many of those in the electorate. I'm not saying hyperinflation is politically viable, but if we continue on the current path of spending and the rate that we are adding to the national debt without changes being made it's inevitable, the current levels just aren't sustainable no matter how you slice it.

Yup we are on the same page. So what do you think the we can do to help change this environment?

[BanginJimmy]

But u know this bank was desolved due to all the problems it seemed to create, particularly with inflation and the over-creation of money.

It wasnt desolved, the charter was never renewed.

Which is where the newly created "Federal Reserve Act" showed up to do it all over again.

You can still look to politicians today and say the same things. Just because an idea has failed every other time it has been tried doesnt mean we shouldnt try it again.

But since America in general has forgotten the lessons of the past and the reasoning in us leaving Great Britain in the first place (or at least for the most part) was to do with value-less paper money and the indebtedness (which isnt a word I think) that everyone but the "rich" had on their plates just for being there.

Paper money DOES have value. The difference is that it is not backed by a tangible item anymore. It is backed by confidence.

People are indebted today because they are dumb with money, plain and simple. I make only 3 exceptions to that statement. Debt to cover school, to buy a house, to purchase a car. Even the car isnt a great reason to go into debt, but because Americans are so tied to personal vehicles in all but a very few small areas of the country I do make that exception.

That is what will happen to us Jimmy, if we dont read up and get this together. I mean... it wont happen to "us" and it may not happen to our kids kids, but if we keep it up like this there will again, be a few ballers and then the rest of us, working to live, not working to grow and I really dont want to know that I could of changed it by simply speaking on it.

We dont live in a caste system. Anyone can become wealthy if they are willing to do the necessary work. The problem is that too many people are not willing to do the work, but never miss a chance to complain because someone is more successful in life than they are. Some people are perfectly happy to pick up a welfare check every 1st and 15th instead of getting an education and job.

[blaknoize]

According to Warren Buffett, you could take all the gold that's ever been mined, and it would fill a cube 67 feet in each direction. Do you honestly think that you could make enough gold coins out of that for everyone in the world? Its not possible. The gold standard is very different than using gold coins. What about silver? It tarnishes easily and quickly which adds to another difficulty - fraud control. Its not that complicated to produce fake gold and silver coins - and then you are right back to a worthless currency, as it can be devalued quickly. The gold standard allowed them to change the currency form and values, as they wished, so they utilized it. Paper money was the obvious choice.

It isnt for the "world" its for America. The Gold standard can be used, its also obviously not hard to fake "complex" paper bills, regardless of their elaboration. Gold/Silver testers exist just as bill testers exist. Bills rip and tarnish and can be destroyed. Silver tarnishes and can be "cleaned" and/or remelted and reproduced. The value of that dirty silver/gold coin will not lower its actual value.

And if u want or THOUGHT of it, you could mix metals, like we do now for pennies/nickels/dimes etc., a relatively PURE Silver/Gold coin would have much more value than a partial coin. Just like a diamonds clarity determines its cost. So if you'd like to have more money in circulation do not create lots of pure coins, 25% or so nearly pure coins, the rest could be divided and created based upon need (or something to that affect.)

The Gold standard can be used as "credit" as it was before. America can issue "Credit" based on its gold/silver of other nations. If you want, or America went this route, America could issue tokens in non-gold/silver format that could be converted to American coinage of value or even at value.

The Gold standard is credit in and of itself, unlike the current Fed. Reserve setup who issues bills AT DEBT or at Interest and changes our Government for its use with nothing to pay it back with.

[blaknoize]

We dont live in a caste system. Anyone can become wealthy if they are willing to do the necessary work. The problem is that too many people are not willing to do the work, but never miss a chance to complain because someone is more successful in life than they are. Some people are perfectly happy to pick up a welfare check every 1st and 15th instead of getting an education and job.

Well we've veered away from the topic and I suppose this debate has ended more or less. I like the difference in opinions and the education I can pick up from it. I'm still not and will never be at ease with what we're in now. There has to be a reason why the paper bill was refused by our Founding Fathers and I believe it is bound to fail on us hard.

Indebtedness is lame, there is no reason why a person has to enter the world instantly in debt and live a life always having to think about debt and keep "it" in check.

[BanginJimmy]

There has to be a reason why the paper bill was refused by our Founding Fathers and I believe it is bound to fail on us hard.

The paper bill was not refused by our founding fathers. Bank notes were used and they were guaranteed by the bank that issued them. The gold standard was not used until about 1900 and was then abandoned by Nixon in 1071.

there is no reason why a person has to enter the world instantly in debt and live a life always having to think about debt and keep "it" in check.

The only debt you are born with is the sovereign debt the US carries.

[David88vert]

It isnt for the "world" its for America. The Gold standard can be used, its also obviously not hard to fake "complex" paper bills, regardless of their elaboration. Gold/Silver testers exist just as bill testers exist. Bills rip and tarnish and can be destroyed. Silver tarnishes and can be "cleaned" and/or remelted and reproduced. The value of that dirty silver/gold coin will not lower its actual value.

And if u want or THOUGHT of it, you could mix metals, like we do now for pennies/nickels/dimes etc., a relatively PURE Silver/Gold coin would have much more value than a partial coin. Just like a diamonds clarity determines its cost. So if you'd like to have more money in circulation do not create lots of pure coins, 25% or so nearly pure coins, the rest could be divided and created based upon need (or something to that affect.)

The Gold standard can be used as "credit" as it was before. America can issue "Credit" based on its gold/silver of other nations. If you want, or America went this route, America could issue tokens in non-gold/silver format that could be converted to American coinage of value or even at value.

The Gold standard is credit in and of itself, unlike the current Fed. Reserve setup who issues bills AT DEBT or at Interest and changes our Government for its use with nothing to pay it back with.

The world tends to follow America.
Have you already happened to spend the $170 plus shipping for a gold coin checker? Should everyone carry one? That's the cheapest way to check that I am aware of.

[David88vert]

The only debt you are born with is the sovereign debt the US carries.

And if you don't like it, you are free to move to another country.

[blaknoize]

^Why'd u quote him it was originated by me and that isnt the point David.