We are officially screwed

[BanginJimmy]

Well, the health care bill was finally strong armed and bribed through the House after 11pm on a Sunday night. Not a single Republican voted for it and 34 dems voted against it also. We all know what to expect now.

Higher premiums from the additional mandates. Those will probably take affect immediately.

Higher taxes on businesses, especially small ones, these will take affect immediately.

Higher taxes on insurance companies and medical supply companies, making care and, therefore, total health care costs higher, these will take affect immediately.

Massive medicare cuts, pushing an already bankrupt program further into debt.

[japan4racing]

let it be known i voted for mccain.....and let it be known that if they had granted rep. john boehners request for the public vote of each and every representative in that house this would either have a different out come or we would have a list of ppl that will be unemployed by the next election. my insurance has already gone up $10 apay period in the last year..i cant wait to see what its gonna do now....change we can believe in! bullshit!

[Vteckidd]

God bless John boehner, I'm glad he had the balls to say what he did.

Dems are fucked, I will take any bet with any liberal that unemployment will rise as taxes and businesses run for the hills to save their business. I will bet this raises premiums, I will bet it puts private insurances out of business. This is a step toward single payer and a power grab

it will be repealed IMO by 2014 or we will be so broke and unemployed it won't matter

[punkr6]

God bless John boehner

AMEN brother....

[preferredduck]

God bless John boehner, I'm glad he had the balls to say what he did.

Dems are fucked, I will take any bet with any liberal that unemployment will rise as taxes and businesses run for the hills to save their business. I will bet this raises premiums, I will bet it puts private insurances out of business. This is a step toward single payer and a power grab

it will be repealed IMO by 2014 or we will be so broke and unemployed it won't matter

you are wrong about the insuance companies going under, who do you think wrote the bill the tooth fairy, lol. j/k. they see that 47 million americans times $150/month equals more profit. they want everyone to buy insurance and the stocks for the major companies that have their hands in the cookie jar with medicare and medicaid already had a nice increase on monday, probably alot of poloticians invested in it before it becomes too big.

[Vteckidd]

you are wrong about the insuance companies going under, who do you think wrote the bill the tooth fairy, lol. j/k. they see that 47 million americans times $150/month equals more profit. they want everyone to buy insurance and the stocks for the major companies that have their hands in the cookie jar with medicare and medicaid already had a nice increase on monday, probably alot of poloticians invested in it before it becomes too big.

uh there isn't anyway the insurance companies survive under this bill. They will become proxies of the govt when they fail and go under.

Your example assumes that everything stays the same under the old system. There costs will vastly outnumber the additional people in the system. Also it's 30 million, 10-12 which are illegal immigrants who won't be covered initially

out of the remaining 20million some who are still so poor they can't afford it will get govt subsidies, the remaining may still decline insurance and pay the 2.5% fine per year.

So it's not as you think

[tony]

uh there isn't anyway the insurance companies survive under this bill. They will become proxies of the govt when they fail and go under.

Your example assumes that everything stays the same under the old system. There costs will vastly outnumber the additional people in the system. Also it's 30 million, 10-12 which are illegal immigrants who won't be covered initially

out of the remaining 20million some who are still so poor they can't afford it will get govt subsidies, the remaining may still decline insurance and pay the 2.5% fine per year.

So it's not as you think

Proxies that work for profit though, call them the blackwater of healthcare. The democrats present this bill as taking the power away from the health insurance industry, in my eyes they would be better off if they said absolutely nothing because its a blatant lie. I think preferredduck is right here, watch what healthcare industry stocks do between now and 2014.

[preferredduck]

Proxies that work for profit though, call them the blackwater of healthcare. The democrats present this bill as taking the power away from the health insurance industry, in my eyes they would be better off if they said absolutely nothing because its a blatant lie. I think preferredduck is right here, watch what healthcare industry stocks do between now and 2014.

i did healthcare billing and collections a couple of years ago and UHC, Humana, and BCBS have been doing underwritting and services for medicare and medicaid for a long time now and that will not stop. these companies have been there from the begining lobbying etc, paying out possibly millions to have the bill written in their favor. i'm sorry but when the president now says "everyone can purchase health insurance" i see something wrong here. the gov't made an HMO into what it is today, thank nixon and kaiser for that and i don't see such a big industry going away and being gov't run. it may appear that way but look behind the curtain.

all 3 of the mentioned companies had a nice stock increase monday, if they were going anywhere they would have tanked.

[BanginJimmy]

This bill will have a HUGE negative effect on small businesses. The additional taxes levied on them will alone push unemployment over 11% almost immediately after the govt starts taxing them and I dont think 15% is out of the question by the time benefits actually start.

I really do hope its repealed before 2014, but I honestly dont think its out of the realm of possibility to see better than 2:1 GOP in the house by 2014.

[japan4racing]

so in the first year or so obama has spent (borrowed) what $2 trillion now? unemployment is higher than it has been in 20+ years and we are better how? oh yeah.....we are gonna save $180 billion in 10 years....and 12% more ppl will have insurance...now thats some change!

[psychodrama_81]

It's sad that my roommate swears by him and is EXCITED to see it pass.....but I'm just waiting to see what happens. She thinks she knows but she has no idea. Hope she doesn't have to go to the doctor often....

[Vteckidd]

The deficit neutral stuff is all bullshit , 6 years of benefits 10 years of taxes, smoke and mirrors

[BanginJimmy]

950B over 10 years works out to average 95B a year in additional spending. For the sake of argument we will say that 20%(190B) will be spent over the next 4 years to set up the new administration and beaurcracies. That leaves 760B(~125B a year) over the next 6 years with maybe 4 of those fully up and running. Now we look at the actual number and we see what this thing will cost in a best case scenerio. My guess is that by 2018 (4 years after the start of benefits) we will see this entitlement costing upwards of 200B per year and growing at a constant rate.

[punkr6]

This is a lot worse then most people think. Be ready people, it's gonna get a lot worse and there is no hope in sight....

[Vteckidd]

oh and they piggybacked the complete takeover of student loans now

[BanginJimmy]

And who knows what else. We.haven't been allowed to see the final versions of any of these bills yet.

But don't forget, 1 state has retained the right to furnish student loans. I believe it was North Dakota or something like that. I will let you guess how those corrupted bastards voted.

I have never seen such obvious bribery in my life. If a private business offered a member of the house a nice cush job in exchange for their vote, both the congressman and someone from the business would be looking at jail time. Its ok though if it is the president doing it though. The same goes for all the others that litterally sold their vote to Obama. I truely hope the GOP starts an investigation and indicts all of them, from the president down, on charges of bribery and whatever else.

[Vteckidd]

And who knows what else. We.haven't been allowed to see the final versions of any of these bills yet.

But don't forget, 1 state has retained the right to furnish student loans. I believe it was North Dakota or something like that. I will let you guess how those corrupted bastards voted.

I have never seen such obvious bribery in my life. If a private business offered a member of the house a nice cush job in exchange for their vote, both the congressman and someone from the business would be looking at jail time. Its ok though if it is the president doing it though. The same goes for all the others that litterally sold their vote to Obama. I truely hope the GOP starts an investigation and indicts all of them, from the president down, on charges of bribery and whatever else.

This isnt over it will be tied up in the courts long before they start carrying paying out any benefits. Furthermore, i expect tomorrow you will see a dramatic increase in states passing initiatives to not follow the Federal Govt mandate for health insurance.

I know im going out on a limb here, but with State coffers already empty, we may see the biggest rift between the Federal Govt and states since the Civil War

[Terror]

Is there somewhere I can get more information on both sides? I dont follow politics, but I hear 1/2 people stoked that it past and the other 1/2 claiming its the end of the world...

some cliff notes for why they would do this if its such a negative impact? pro's, cons?

[BanginJimmy]

I honestly don't know of any place that is reporting this without a lot of spin on it. I've learned a lot about it from keeping track on it since it started.

Is there anything in particuliar you want to know?

[Vteckidd]

Republican Cliffs:
Doesnt reduce cost at all
Adds to the deficit
Raises taxes on small business (by requiring them to provide healthcare to their employees)
Mandates that all people must carry health insurance or pay a penalty of $325 1st year, $700 second year, if you make over XXX money you pay 2.5% of your income in a "fine" if you decline healthcare
Extends healthcare to illegal immigrants (even though they wont tell you that)
Grows govt even more and now the govt will regulate how much the insurance companies can charge (IE kills their 8% profit margin they see as an average now, forces them out of business)
Creates govt "healthcare insurance pool" which will be cheaper than the private companies forcing people to obviously pick the "cheaper" plan IE GOVT, which forces insurance companies out of business, and doctors will stop using insurance providers that can no longer compete with the govt
Rationing care, 30-35 million people will instantly enter the healthcare system without adding additional staff or facilities like hospitals or doctors
Doctors will see a huge paycut as the govt will dictate to them how much they can be paid for certain procedures under their govt "healthcare pool"
500 billion in medicare cuts gets redictributed to other aspects of the bill so they are cutting money to doctors, seniors to fund other aspects of the program
Tons of backdoor deals to buy peoples votes. Democrats had trouble getting a majority to pass their versions of the bill (even though they had complete control of congress) so they brokered "sweetheart" deals to get people on board. Certain states and representatives are exempt from taxes in the bill, or get special treatment in turn for voting "yes". Google Cornhusker Kickback, Louisiana Purchase, or Healthcare Sweetheart Deals


Dems Cliffs:
Everyone has healthcare now
They believe it will lower premiums but only on the fact that the GOVT POOL will be cheaper than the insurance companies. They think that this will keep the "insurance companies honest". What is flawed in their logic is that the insurance companies dont make a huge profit as it is, and the fed govt can operate at trillions of dollars in the hole and just keep printing money to sustain a program, insurance companies cannot. Also they will be regulating the very companies they will be "competing" with
Bans pre-existing conditions from being "uninsurable"
Children get to stay on their healthcare program of their parents until 26 instead of 23

Things unknown:
Dems said they would explore allowing people to buy insurance across state lines, but when private companies go out of business it will be a moot point
Dems said they would allow exploration of a new agency to root out medicare and medicaide fraud, but havent outlined how they will do it
The bill calls for 10 years of TAXES, but only 6 years of benefits. Meaning they will start taxing NOW, but you cannot get healthcare until 2014.

[SlowEG9]

Republican Cliffs:
Doesnt reduce cost at all
Adds to the deficit
Raises taxes on small business (by requiring them to provide healthcare to their employees)
Mandates that all people must carry health insurance or pay a penalty of $325 1st year, $700 second year, if you make over XXX money you pay 2.5% of your income in a "fine" if you decline healthcare
Extends healthcare to illegal immigrants (even though they wont tell you that)
Grows govt even more and now the govt will regulate how much the insurance companies can charge (IE kills their 8% profit margin they see as an average now, forces them out of business)
Creates govt "healthcare insurance pool" which will be cheaper than the private companies forcing people to obviously pick the "cheaper" plan IE GOVT, which forces insurance companies out of business, and doctors will stop using insurance providers that can no longer compete with the govt
Rationing care, 30-35 million people will instantly enter the healthcare system without adding additional staff or facilities like hospitals or doctors
Doctors will see a huge paycut as the govt will dictate to them how much they can be paid for certain procedures under their govt "healthcare pool"
500 billion in medicare cuts gets redictributed to other aspects of the bill so they are cutting money to doctors, seniors to fund other aspects of the program
Tons of backdoor deals to buy peoples votes. Democrats had trouble getting a majority to pass their versions of the bill (even though they had complete control of congress) so they brokered "sweetheart" deals to get people on board. Certain states and representatives are exempt from taxes in the bill, or get special treatment in turn for voting "yes". Google Cornhusker Kickback, Louisiana Purchase, or Healthcare Sweetheart Deals


Dems Cliffs:
Everyone has healthcare now
They believe it will lower premiums but only on the fact that the GOVT POOL will be cheaper than the insurance companies. They think that this will keep the "insurance companies honest". What is flawed in their logic is that the insurance companies dont make a huge profit as it is, and the fed govt can operate at trillions of dollars in the hole and just keep printing money to sustain a program, insurance companies cannot. Also they will be regulating the very companies they will be "competing" with
Bans pre-existing conditions from being "uninsurable"
Children get to stay on their healthcare program of their parents until 26 instead of 23

Things unknown:
Dems said they would explore allowing people to buy insurance across state lines, but when private companies go out of business it will be a moot point
Dems said they would allow exploration of a new agency to root out medicare and medicaide fraud, but havent outlined how they will do it
The bill calls for 10 years of TAXES, but only 6 years of benefits. Meaning they will start taxing NOW, but you cannot get healthcare until 2014.

I haven't paid much attention to either side recently but will that grant part time workers health insurance?

There is honestly only one benefit i could ever see out of this...That's the ability to make people without insurance be turned down or pay..

I personally dont have insurance by choice due to me not ever really getting sick but when I do, I come out of pocket happily without bitching

[BanginJimmy]

I haven't paid much attention to either side recently but will that grant part time workers health insurance?

According to dems, health coverage is a right, not a benefit. Therefore a company should be required to offer health insurance to everyone or pay a fine of 8% of total payroll.

There is honestly only one benefit i could ever see out of this...That's the ability to make people without insurance be turned down or pay..

But you cannot be turned down for insurance. Even if I have cancer, if I go to an insurance company they HAVE to cover me and they cannot cjarge me more for that coverage.

I personally dont have insurance by choice due to me not ever really getting sick but when I do, I come out of pocket happily without bitching

Well you will be coming out of pocket by about another 700 year now, even if you don't step foot in a doc's office all year. The good news is that if anything does come up you can just drop a month's premium on an insurer's desk and stick them wity the bills.

[SlowEG9]

According to dems, health coverage is a right, not a benefit. Therefore a company should be required to offer health insurance to everyone or pay a fine of 8% of total payroll.



But you cannot be turned down for insurance. Even if I have cancer, if I go to an insurance company they HAVE to cover me and they cannot cjarge me more for that coverage.



Well you will be coming out of pocket by about another 700 year now, even if you don't step foot in a doc's office all year. The good news is that if anything does come up you can just drop a month's premium on an insurer's desk and stick them wity the bills.

I'm not real sure on how to do the mulit qoute but

1. What do Dems propose insurance be called now if not a "benefit"? Are these costs going to get paid 100% by companys or passed along to the worker who makes minimum wage already?

2. I didn't mean in my first post insurance companys turning people down. I meant the ability for hospitals to turn down people...Seems like if a law is passed stating you must have insurance, it would just seem to fit (playing devils advocate) that hospitals would no longer HAVE to treat uninsured.

3. Third part of that seems almost awesome to that degree though. Im not even going to lie. However, say I work for Cocacola...if I pass my registration for group benefits, is there any proposed change to that either?


I just find it slightly ironic that the people who are WANTING this law, don't make enough to pay for insurance anyway...I can go get blue cross (last i looked) for under $200 a month. It seems like for those who are wanting the health care, they don't understand what its going to take to get it there...

[BanginJimmy]

I'm not real sure on how to do the mulit qoute but

1. What do Dems propose insurance be called now if not a "benefit"? Are these costs going to get paid 100% by companys or passed along to the worker who makes minimum wage already?

The companies will pass as much of the cost as they can onto customers, but in the end it will definitely result in small businesses cutting jobs. As I said before, I wouldn't be surprised to see unemployment jump to over 11% in very short order.

2. I didn't mean in my first post insurance companys turning people down. I meant the ability for hospitals to turn down people...Seems like if a law is passed stating you must have insurance, it would just seem to fit (playing devils advocate) that hospitals would no longer HAVE to treat uninsured.

Hospitals will still be required to treat everyone that walks in the door.

3. Third part of that seems almost awesome to that degree though. Im not even going to lie. However, say I work for Cocacola...if I pass my registration for group benefits, is there any proposed change to that either?

It is nice if you want to game the system, which people will definitely do.

I work for a major corporation and my benefits will be hit hard by the cadillac tax.pretty much everyone that currently has coverage will see a rise in rates and at the same time a degredation of benefits.

I just find it slightly ironic that the people who are WANTING this law, don't make enough to pay for insurance anyway...I can go get blue cross (last i looked) for under $200 a month. It seems like for those who are wanting the health care, they don't understand what its going to take to get it there...

The whole point of this thing is a power grab. An expansion of entitlements is simply a way to buy votes.

[SlowEG9]

Damn i just typed a decent response and clicked the wrong button..I will retype it later but ultimately the only vote that needs to be done should be impeachment

[BanginJimmy]

Bumping this to the top to see if anyone has changed their mind over the last 6 months or so.


Pretty much everything that was talked about is coming true. Coverages are being cut back as several of the largest issuers of child only medical plans have since stopped writing new policies, effective about a day before the mandate to require insurers to insure all kids at the same price kicked in. Premiums are rising faster than they were before the bill took effect. I could go on, but everyone knows all of the criticisms already.


I will add that I am still not for an all out repeal of the bill. It has some good portions of it that will really help the consumers and will not hurt the insurers all that bad. What I am all in for is a repeal contingent on passing a new bill. One that is centered on the private sector regulations, such as coverage limits, not the expansion of entitlement programs.

[David88vert]

Ok, here is a question that was posed to me about this bill that I am not 100% sure of.

"Under this new bill, we are required to pay for insurance, or incure a fine. It is my understanding that the fine is under $400 per year. It is also understood that with the passage of this bill, insurance carriers cannot refuse to cover you for pre-existing conditions. So, can I just pay the fine year-after-year, and then get medical insurance when I get diagnosed with something that I need insurance for (cancer, disease, etc.)?"

Anyone know how that situation would work out?

[tony]

When Romney instituted a similar plan in Mass. yes, a number of people took the fine rather than coverage. Expect the fine to get steeper to detour that kind of practice. Do I agree with the whole insurance mandate? Not the way its structured but anyone who feels that health reform wasn't needed is badly misguided.

As I've stated before the bill would pass and it did. If this is how you guys grieve over something that affects you on a small basis versus that person who can now get coverage and possibly life changing treatment then so be it, I refuse to go there with the whole "we are officially screwed" sentiment. Let the process play itself out and if it doesn't work I'm sure the course will change. Your party fucked itself in 2008 and this is the result, point the finger at the Democrats if you want but because you expect less of your party, democrats took control. That is half the problem with the state of mind in this country today, the lack of accountability versus the amount of finger pointing. Continue the whining.. this is actually enjoyable.

[David88vert]

When Romney instituted a similar plan in Mass. yes, a number of people took the fine rather than coverage. Expect the fine to get steeper to detour that kind of practice. Do I agree with the whole insurance mandate? Not the way its structured but anyone who feels that health reform wasn't needed is badly misguided.

As I've stated before the bill would pass and it did. If this is how you guys grieve over something that affects you on a small basis versus that person who can now get coverage and possibly life changing treatment then so be it, I refuse to go there with the whole "we are officially screwed" sentiment. Let the process play itself out and if it doesn't work I'm sure the course will change. Your party fucked itself in 2008 and this is the result, point the finger at the Democrats if you want but because you expect less of your party, democrats took control. That is half the problem with the state of mind in this country today, the lack of accountability versus the amount of finger pointing. Continue the whining.. this is actually enjoyable.

So, we already know that it didn't work in Mass., and they still wanted to push THIS bill through? Just for the sake of saying that they were reforming healthcare? That doesn't sound like they wanted to serve their constituents, but rather were posturing to their platform committees.

This bill actually affects me personally in a negative way. I gain no benefits, but will experience longer waits, less available testing, and higher taxes - and that is if the rates and costs do NOT rise.

As for helping the people, I have a friend whose wife was diagnosed with cancer. Medicare was going to cover the treatment costs - now, Medicare will loose $500 billion to this new program - which will not provide benefits to cover cancer treatments for 4 more years. With the additional 21% Medicare rate reduction already taking place, she has been warned that treatment may have to be postponed. If this happens, at the current rate of the cancer growth, it is unlikely that she will survive 4 years, and will leave her 7 year old without a mother. That's here and now - the Democrats are not saving lives - they are condemning them.

BTW - I am not a Republican, nor a Democrat, so you can forget that "your party" crap. Last I checked, I was an American, and so are you. Our representatives should be representing our American interests, not party platforms.

[Total_Blender]

I'll make my gloating brief...

God bless John boehner, I'm glad he had the balls to say what he did.

In order for that to happen, God would have to, you know... exist.

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

I listened to Boehner bitch and gripe for what seemed like half an hour last night. Then he requested that the vote be counted one-by-one. What a bunch of shit... anyone with an internet connection or a library card can see how their representatives voted. The GOP just wanted to stall the process as long as possible (so they could then say it wasn't passed until after Midnight or whatever).

I don't see how they could claim they didn't have any input when:

1.) They didn't want the public option (as in the House Bill), so it was axed.
2.) They didn't want "advanced directives, (or Death Panels, depending on your ideological bent)" so those got cut as well.
3.) The legislation very specifically says there will be no federal funding of abortions.

As for helping the people, I have a friend whose wife was diagnosed with cancer. Medicare was going to cover the treatment costs - now, Medicare will loose $500 billion to this new program - which will not provide benefits to cover cancer treatments for 4 more years. With the additional 21% Medicare rate reduction already taking place, she has been warned that treatment may have to be postponed. If this happens, at the current rate of the cancer growth, it is unlikely that she will survive 4 years, and will leave her 7 year old without a mother. That's here and now - the Democrats are not saving lives - they are condemning them.
.

The cuts to Medicare are the Medicare Advantage program which is a "Cadillac" version of medicare offered to seniors that includes things like gym memberships, etc. They are going to do away with that and put everyone who was on it on regular medicare.

There are also provisions for those who have "pre-existing conditions" to get into the system sooner than the rest of us healthy folk. So theres that.

Also, people with pre-existing conditions will no longer have to lie about their conditions in order to obtain coverage. so this will work toward reducing all that "waste, fraud, and abuse" you guys are always whining about.

So the people who voted the democrats into the majority were well served. The Democrats passed Democratic legislation in the interests of their constituents. The Representatives who serve you all (Gingrey, Broun, Price, Linder, etc) served your interests by attempting to obstruct it at every juncture. I really don't see how you all would make much of an impact in the 2012 election as you all are mostly in districts that are already Republican.

[David88vert]

I listened to Boehner...

The cuts to Medicare are the Medicare Advantage program which is a "Cadillac" version of medicare offered to seniors that includes things like gym memberships, etc. They are going to do away with that and put everyone who was on it on regular medicare.

There are also provisions for those who have "pre-existing conditions" to get into the system sooner than the rest of us healthy folk. So theres that.

Also, people with pre-existing conditions will no longer have to lie about their conditions in order to obtain coverage. so this will work toward reducing all that "waste, fraud, and abuse" you guys are always whining about.

So the people who voted the democrats into the majority were well served. The Democrats passed Democratic legislation in the interests of their constituents. The Representatives who serve you all (Gingrey, Broun, Price, Linder, etc) served your interests by attempting to obstruct it at every juncture. I really don't see how you all would make much of an impact in the 2012 election as you all are mostly in districts that are already Republican.

I agree that the Republicans were just delaying the vote. I did not agree with that tactic. My opinion is that they just should have made their motions and then votes without all of the extra comments.

I am not served by the Republicans. I am in the district of Hank Johnson, who I attempted to contact many times over many weeks - and only received automated responses. He did not make an effort to listen to his constituents. He based his decision on the decision of Democratic platform and Pelosi to push this bill through against the will of the American people, not the opinion of the people that he is supposed to represent.

Guess which way I am leaning this morning?

[tony]

Guess which way I am leaning this morning?

the same way you usually lean?

[nreggie454]

Everybody and their retarded sister knows that health care reform was needed. However, this is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay further than we needed to go. The dems tried to fix something to the extent that it is now worse than it was before.

[SPOOLIN]

37 states are already filing injunctions against the Fed Government over this. GA is one of them. FUCK Obama and his bullshit. Worst fucking President in the last 3 decades.

[BanginJimmy]

If all of these Congressmen and women were voting with their constituency, why are so many so far behind in all of the polls that have done in the last couple months?

[Vteckidd]

If all of these Congressmen and women were voting with their constituency, why are so many so far behind in all of the polls that have done in the last couple months?

BECAUSE OF FUCKING GEORGE BUSH, THATS WHY :P

[tony]

Polls polls polls, when Obama was ahead of McCain in the polls they didnt matter now all of a sudden the poll numbers are golden.

[BanginJimmy]

Polls polls polls, when Obama was ahead of McCain in the polls they didnt matter now all of a sudden the poll numbers are golden.

Then how about we use the sentiment expressed during the town halls last summer as a guage of public support?

[tony]

Then how about we use the sentiment expressed during the town halls last summer as a guage of public support?

Heres my problem with the Tea Party movement, these town halls, or whatever and also leads me to believe that the opposition gets attention because the media gives it to them, not because they are significant in numbers. Look at the simple demographics of the opposition and then look at the demographics of the United States today, the two don't match up. As shown in the previous election minority vote is significant, and not just black vote. Latino vote, Arab Americans, Asians, whatever but none of these groups show up at these rallies in significant numbers to oppose the current administration, to be frank what you see is mostly angry whites. It is because of this that I cannot say that they have a significant amount of influence politically.

When Fox news has to play up the numbers at Tea Party rallies I can tell what is really going on and regardless of what polls say. When the Republican party does little to evolve with the times and continue to fight for the status quo, this is why you have such a large number of independent voters. When the right doesn't do anything to remove their selves from the protestors this past weekend yelling out racial slurs and other ignorant statements, I do not take that side seriously.

Know what is coming next? A path to citizenship for illegal immigrants, and with that will come a bolstered voting base for the Democratic party. They are able to do this because they have evolved regardless of how asinine their platform may be. Point the finger at the left if you want but they get it and Republicans don't.

[BanginJimmy]

Heres my problem with the Tea Party movement, these town halls, or whatever and also leads me to believe that the opposition gets attention because the media gives it to them, not because they are significant in numbers. Look at the simple demographics of the opposition and then look at the demographics of the United States today, the two don't match up. As shown in the previous election minority vote is significant, and not just black vote. Latino vote, Arab Americans, Asians, whatever but none of these groups show up at these rallies in significant numbers to oppose the current administration, to be frank what you see is mostly angry whites. It is because of this that I cannot say that they have a significant amount of influence politically.

What makes you think they arent significant in number? What makes you think that the people that want this horrid bill make up even 1% of the American voters? Dems are in power right now because Bush was a PR nightmare for the GOP. Hell, just look at the current favorability of the dems in congress right now. They had everything going for them for the last 3 years and they found a way to squander it away.

Yes, most of the people you see right now are angry whites, but what does that really prove? When you look at those that are for this, you dont see any different. All that says to me is that whites are more politically active than minorities, nothing more, nothing less.

When Fox news has to play up the numbers at Tea Party rallies I can tell what is really going on and regardless of what polls say. When the Republican party does little to evolve with the times and continue to fight for the status quo, this is why you have such a large number of independent voters. When the right doesn't do anything to remove their selves from the protestors this past weekend yelling out racial slurs and other ignorant statements, I do not take that side seriously.

You say that Fox inflates numbers, where is your proof? MSNBC or CNN? The same organizations that have their credibility riding on Obama's success? Thats no different than asking a climate change scientist if climate change is real or not. They have absolutely zero credibility because they have an obvious agenda.

I agree with you that there is no real for anything racial being said, but at the same time I really dont care. Those same people that were slured to are the ones that have been calling anyone that doesnt fall in line with Obama and the dem ideology a terrorist, a nazi, or a McVeigh wanna be. While I dont think its right, a part of me says they are just getting back what they have been spewing for the last 8 months.

Know what is coming next? A path to citizenship for illegal immigrants, and with that will come a bolstered voting base for the Democratic party. They are able to do this because they have evolved regardless of how asinine their platform may be. Point the finger at the left if you want but they get it and Republicans don't.

I agree with you. The dems know they lost the independent vote with their socialist agenda. Now they need to supplant them with criminals. Then again, leave it to the dems to ignore the fact that programs have failed in the past cause they can try it again.

I agree with you that there is no reason for anything racial, but to tell you the truth I really dont care about it either. These people are the same ones that have been calling anyone that didnt fall in lock step with Obama and the dems everything from terrorists to Nazi's, to McVeigh wanna be's.