We are officially screwed

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Originally Posted by preferredduck

you are wrong about the insuance companies going under, who do you think wrote the bill the tooth fairy, lol. j/k. they see that 47 million americans times $150/month equals more profit. they want everyone to buy insurance and the stocks for the major companies that have their hands in the cookie jar with medicare and medicaid already had a nice increase on monday, probably alot of poloticians invested in it before it becomes too big.

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uh there isn't anyway the insurance companies survive under this bill. They will become proxies of the govt when they fail and go under.

Your example assumes that everything stays the same under the old system. There costs will vastly outnumber the additional people in the system. Also it's 30 million, 10-12 which are illegal immigrants who won't be covered initially

out of the remaining 20million some who are still so poor they can't afford it will get govt subsidies, the remaining may still decline insurance and pay the 2.5% fine per year.

So it's not as you think

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Originally Posted by Vteckidd

uh there isn't anyway the insurance companies survive under this bill. They will become proxies of the govt when they fail and go under.

Your example assumes that everything stays the same under the old system. There costs will vastly outnumber the additional people in the system. Also it's 30 million, 10-12 which are illegal immigrants who won't be covered initially

out of the remaining 20million some who are still so poor they can't afford it will get govt subsidies, the remaining may still decline insurance and pay the 2.5% fine per year.

So it's not as you think

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Proxies that work for profit though, call them the blackwater of healthcare. The democrats present this bill as taking the power away from the health insurance industry, in my eyes they would be better off if they said absolutely nothing because its a blatant lie. I think preferredduck is right here, watch what healthcare industry stocks do between now and 2014.

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Originally Posted by tony

Proxies that work for profit though, call them the blackwater of healthcare. The democrats present this bill as taking the power away from the health insurance industry, in my eyes they would be better off if they said absolutely nothing because its a blatant lie. I think preferredduck is right here, watch what healthcare industry stocks do between now and 2014.

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i did healthcare billing and collections a couple of years ago and UHC, Humana, and BCBS have been doing underwritting and services for medicare and medicaid for a long time now and that will not stop. these companies have been there from the begining lobbying etc, paying out possibly millions to have the bill written in their favor. i'm sorry but when the president now says "everyone can purchase health insurance" i see something wrong here. the gov't made an HMO into what it is today, thank nixon and kaiser for that and i don't see such a big industry going away and being gov't run. it may appear that way but look behind the curtain.

all 3 of the mentioned companies had a nice stock increase monday, if they were going anywhere they would have tanked.

Anyone notice how after the public option was removed, the health insurance company commercials stopped?

Coincidence?

Also, Street maybe its because I don't know you or because there is no tone in typed words but you, to me, sound prejudice or just so set on your ways that its an attack nonstop. Look, if you can't handle a debate, don't partake in one. "Is that the best story you have to justify..blah blah"

Go join the people doing the beating then man, the point is that it happened any no one made a big deal about it. If it was someone bashing a Pro-Obama supporter like that you would have, and you know it. This shit should have never reached the point of violence but thats what happens when you take shit from people and give it to someone who doesn't have to work. They live off welfare, they live off foodstamps, and now they get free healthcare. I don't see how in any way thats fair for anyone.

How about in school. When you had to do a project with a group, did you have one kid who didn't want to do anything, didn't do his part to contribute and other people had to do his part? Did you want him to get a grade for what you earned? Fuck no, he didn't do anything he didn't EARN IT.

Get these lazy fucks off their ass and go EARN SOMETHING.

I ate a bunch of indian food last night and it feels like I am pissing battery acid out of mah butt, my sphincter is all swollen up like a horny baboons ass.

just thought you might want to know. But who do you think I am prejudice against?, just to satisfy my curiousity

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Originally Posted by Bajjani

Anyone notice how after the public option was removed, the health insurance company commercials stopped?

Coincidence?

Also, Street maybe its because I don't know you or because there is no tone in typed words but you, to me, sound prejudice or just so set on your ways that its an attack nonstop. Look, if you can't handle a debate, don't partake in one. "Is that the best story you have to justify..blah blah"

Go join the people doing the beating then man, the point is that it happened any no one made a big deal about it. If it was someone bashing a Pro-Obama supporter like that you would have, and you know it. This shit should have never reached the point of violence but thats what happens when you take shit from people and give it to someone who doesn't have to work. They live off welfare, they live off foodstamps, and now they get free healthcare. I don't see how in any way thats fair for anyone.

How about in school. When you had to do a project with a group, did you have one kid who didn't want to do anything, didn't do his part to contribute and other people had to do his part? Did you want him to get a grade for what you earned? Fuck no, he didn't do anything he didn't EARN IT.

Get these lazy fucks off their ass and go EARN SOMETHING.

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a good example of no media coverage is last year after obama got in office there was a family beat up by 50 or so black people who basically were were saying we own you because of obama, this happened in ohio, never made the news, nothing, found it online so there is alot of media bias these days.

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Originally Posted by preferredduck

a good example of no media coverage is last year after obama got in office there was a family beat up by 50 or so black people who basically were were saying we own you because of obama, this happened in ohio, never made the news, nothing, found it online so there is alot of media bias these days.

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I got beat up by about 15 black people in 1992 after the Rodney King police acquittal was announced the night before, I was in the 7th grade and the school contacted all of the white student's parent's and told them to pick up their children because they have no chance of containing the violence. I was beaten with a gym lock curled up in a fist and used as brass knuckles. My face looked like I was run over by a car, it was the same day the riots broke out in L.A. and I was not the only one, I was just the first of about 20 throughout the day to get their asses whipped up and down those middle school hallways.

This was Miller Grove Jr. High by the way if anyone is curious

They actually sent only the white children home right here in Stone Mountain (although in my school there were only about 50 of us with a school population of about 1500) and I didn't get my news story either. I even had a private hearing at the DeKalb County School Board in an attempt for me to try to identify my attackers. I didn't recognize any of them (not because all black people look the same LOL!) but because I was knocked out and I only remembered waking up in some other room.

I barely even had any conception of "race" until after that day

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Originally Posted by StreetHazard

I got beat up by about 15 black people in 1992 after the Rodney King police acquittal was announced the night before, I was in the 7th grade and the school contacted all of the white student's parent's and told them to pick up their children because they have no chance of containing the violence. I was beaten with a gym lock curled up in a fist and used as brass knuckles. My face looked like I was run over by a car, it was the same day the riots broke out in L.A. and I was not the only one, I was just the first of about 20 throughout the day to get their asses whipped up and down those middle school hallways.

This was Miller Grove Jr. High by the way if anyone is curious

They actually sent only the white children home right here in Stone Mountain (although in my school there were only about 50 of us with a school population of about 1500) and I didn't get my news story either. I even had a private trial at the DeKalb County School Board in an attempt for me to try to identify my attackers. I didn't recognize any of them (not because all black people look the same LOL!) but because I was knocked out and I only remembered waking up in some other room.

I barely even had any conception of "race" until after that day

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it's called media bias, it happens all the time sadly. example i was in a car accident a few years ago and now have a pinched nerve in my neck and several spots in my back. i have lost all forms f insurance and even a couple of jobs from it and it one of the jobs there was a racial slur said that sped up the firing process. i cannot get help, insurance, an attorney touch the company even though it's all recorded since it's a call center and even when we were not on the phone we were recorded and the manager quit a week later. i have tried temp medicaid to be denied and the non english speaking person behind me gets every benefit at age 18 really pissed me of. so what am i going to do about the new fines now, i guess i'll go to jail when the IRS shows up. i don't complain much but i am tired of my neck/head/back hurting 24/7. hell my girls suffer the most because some days i'm pretty useless from it. this is a situation i have not seen any insight into on healthcare reform.

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Originally Posted by preferredduck

it's called media bias, it happens all the time sadly. example i was in a car accident a few years ago and now have a pinched nerve in my neck and several spots in my back. i have lost all forms f insurance and even a couple of jobs from it and it one of the jobs there was a racial slur said that sped up the firing process. i cannot get help, insurance, an attorney touch the company even though it's all recorded since it's a call center and even when we were not on the phone we were recorded and the manager quit a week later. i have tried temp medicaid to be denied and the non english speaking person behind me gets every benefit at age 18 really pissed me of. so what am i going to do about the new fines now, i guess i'll go to jail when the IRS shows up. i don't complain much but i am tired of my neck/head/back hurting 24/7. hell my girls suffer the most because some days i'm pretty useless from it. this is a situation i have not seen any insight into on healthcare reform.

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That really fucking sucks...and I really am not picking on you and it sounds like your having a hard time right now. But that post was kind of hard for me to read, it seems kind of fragmented and confusing.

But from the gist I got, won't you be able to get medical insurance soon since according to the new law they cannot say no "due to a pre-existing" condition? And I am not exactly sure on the details but there is noway congress will not include some kind of "stop-loss" plan for those that are unemployed to still be covered under some kind of insurance.

I am still unclear of their plans for the unemployed myself under the new law

(edit) an article from newsweek explaining it, and it seems people in your situation is what it is designed for!

http://www.newsweek.com/id/235296?tid=relatedcl

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Originally Posted by StreetHazard

That really fucking sucks...

well won't you be able to get medical insurance soon since according to the new law they cannot say no "due to a pre-existing" condition? And I am not exactly sure on the details but there is noway congress will not include some kind of "stop-loss" plan for those that are unemployed to still be covered under some kind of insurance.

I am still unclear of their plans for the unemployed myself under the new law

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me either and that worries me since my last job i was the first to go since i have neck problems so we will see there. if they fine me i guess i'll give them the finger. even when i had insurance i could not get proper treatment it was here have another pill instead of let's try to fix the problem. i was pretty close to getting trigger point injections when i lost my insurance and job yet again. i never had this problem until after being in a car accident and this happened. when in the call center i handled the VIP accounts even from other managers so i was good at what i did but with my history they said hell no. i can't even go to my favorite place anymore, sanford stadium to watch football games and that really sucks since i had season tickets for 4 years and just can't go anymore unless i can park at the stadium near my seat, if not i'm gonna have a bad time, just ask the guy i threw up on at the central michigan game back in 08. he was pissed until he realized i wasn't drunk and could barely walk from hurting so bad.

also news flash, if this health care plan is so good why are no members of the gov't included, they are all exempt and i would love to go to a meeting with obama there and ask why he and is kids won't get on his own healthcare plan, is he too good for it or what. i think when most people learn of this they will be really pissed off and felt pissed on.

I edited my previous post, it seems that article addresses some of your issues. I really have no idea what Obama's health insurance is. But it would not shock me if presidents have their own private hospital under the white house.

Could you show me the information where it says the government is not going to use it? I would just like to read it for myself.

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Originally Posted by StreetHazard

I edited my previous post, it seems that article addresses some of your issues. I really have no idea what Obama's health insurance is. But it would not shock me if presidents have their own private hospital under the white house.

Could you show me the information where it says the government is not going to use it? I would just like to read it for myself.

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…page 158 of the bill defines “congressional staff” narrowly, as “employees employed by the official office of a member of congress, whether in the district office or in Washington.”

it's gonna be somewhere there. only the high members of congress, the people that help them write the bills, etc are excluded, all other federal workers will be like us though. i found it on one of alex jones sites which have some interesting facts but you cannot follow every word he says for sure but usually all of these folks are excluded. i will also say that i cannot afford a health insurance premium at all right now, not until i see a new Dr next month to get my meds adjusted "damn abusers of the system have screwed me" watch the oxycontin express to see why i get more and more frustrated at this. then maybe someone will hire me shortly who knows but this sucks!!!

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Originally Posted by preferredduck

…page 158 of the bill defines “congressional staff” narrowly, as “employees employed by the official office of a member of congress, whether in the district office or in Washington.”

it's gonna be somewhere there. only the high members of congress, the people that help them write the bills, etc are excluded, all other federal workers will be like us though. i found it on one of alex jones sites which have some interesting facts but you cannot follow every word he says for sure but usually all of these folks are excluded. i will also say that i cannot afford a health insurance premium at all right now, not until i see a new Dr next month to get my meds adjusted "damn abusers of the system have screwed me" watch the oxycontin express to see why i get more and more frustrated at this. then maybe someone will hire me shortly who knows but this sucks!!!

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This bill is designed to help people just like you, and every single unemployed american that lacks health insurance. Your real name might as well be included in the language. YOU are going to benefit from this. I don't have any health problems right now and I have a good full-time job with benefits and a household income that certainly throws me into a higher tax-paying bracket so with your logic shouldn't "I" be complaining about your useless ass mooching off of the system?

NO...not at all

Instead I am excited for you, I am very pleased that people across this country in your similar situation will finally get the care they need and for their families, and all of the what...10.2% give or take a few percentage points of the unemployed.

I just really don't understand you tenacious right-wing republicans complaining and fighting something that will directly impact you and your families lives for the BETTER. And instead argue on the behalf of extremely well-funded individuals and massive corporations that really do not need your political support to begin with or give a fuck about the societal problems of the country they have chosen to do business in it's capitalist market, except on how much it may or may not affect their wallets.

I just don't get it. I really do not understand.

How will higher insurance premiums, higher taxes, lower quality of care, more govt intrusion, and less access to health care benefit me for the better?

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Originally Posted by BanginJimmy

How will higher insurance premiums, higher taxes, lower quality of care, more govt intrusion, and less access to health care benefit me for the better?

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are you unemployed without insurance? your political cohort preferredduck is and with millions of other people just like him, and with health problems to boot. Why don't you just let them continue wallowing in the financial squaller he has outlined above and not care at all about his plight. His situation could easily happen to any of us.

And some of what you described above is purely speculation, if it cannot just be better defined as just your "opinion" and you are just attempting to predict what has not happened yet.

And why are you actually arguing FOR the medical companies?

what

the

fuck?

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Originally Posted by BanginJimmy

How will higher insurance premiums, higher taxes, lower quality of care, more govt intrusion, and less access to health care benefit me for the better?

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Huckabee actually had a good point about it last night. The back end of the law people dont realize is yes its great to now cover people with pre-existing conditions. The problem is those people pay higher rates are were deemed "uninsurable" for a reason.

this plan basically is like you wrecking your car, then calling insurance the next day and saying "i need insurance now i wrecked my car yesterday" , the govt will require them to give it to you and then pay for it.

Its like calling your home insurance company and saying you want to add fire protection because your house burned down last week.

Its like calling a life insurance company and taking out a policy on your spouse that died last week.

That will be what the insurance companies will be forced to have to pay for. In that context it is WRONG. We should be able to cover people with pre-existing conditions, but you have to understand that someone who smokes 10 packs a day with a history of cancer is going to pay more in insurance than someone who doesnt smoke, and has a healthy history. When did that become wrong?

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Originally Posted by StreetHazard

This bill is designed to help people just like you, and every single unemployed american that lacks health insurance. Your real name might as well be included in the language. YOU are going to benefit from this. I don't have any health problems right now and I have a good full-time job with benefits and a household income that certainly throws me into a higher tax-paying bracket so with your logic shouldn't "I" be complaining about your useless ass mooching off of the system?

NO...not at all

Instead I am excited for you, I am very pleased that people across this country in your similar situation will finally get the care they need and for their families, and all of the what...10.2% give or take a few percentage points of the unemployed.

I just really don't understand you tenacious right-wing republicans complaining and fighting something that will directly impact you and your families lives for the BETTER. And instead argue on the behalf of extremely well-funded individuals and massive corporations that really do not need your political support to begin with or give a fuck about the societal problems of the country they have chosen to do business in it's capitalist market, except on how much it may or may not affect their wallets.

I just don't get it. I really do not understand.

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first of all i am not a republican or democrat, secondly i hate my situation and want to work not sit on my ass and everyone pay for me, hell no i don't want to be like the folks i used to give loans to at world finance period. i have found nowhere in the bill that i wont have to pay for insurance if i cannot afford it and that worries me. if they fine me etc is what i'm getting at. hopefully in the next 2 weeks i will have some wrinkles worked out and when that happens i will desperately try to find employment, though i can't have a physically demanding job there are some out there i can do and do well. over the last 5 years i have figured out what helps me and hurts me which is more than i can say for the Dr's and if i can get a few things adjusted them i will be fine, sometimes uncomfortable but will be able to work. i promised myself i would never mooch the system like others i have seen and worked with but for the short term i can use a little help.

^ good for you!

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Originally Posted by StreetHazard

I just really don't understand you tenacious right-wing republicans complaining and fighting something that will directly impact you and your families lives for the BETTER.

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As laid out by us NON RIGHT WINGERS there is no evidence this will help ANYONE.

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And instead argue on the behalf of extremely well-funded individuals and massive corporations that really do not need your political support to begin with or give a fuck about the societal problems of the country they have chosen to do business in it's capitalist market, except on how much it may or may not affect their wallets.

I just don't get it. I really do not understand.

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Since when did it become a crime to be rich? I want to be rich i dont know about you. SInce when did these rich people get this stigma of not caring about the less fortunate? You know most small businesses ALREADY provided healthcare for their employees right?

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According to the United States Census Bureau, approximately 85% of Americans have health insurance; nearly 60% obtain it through an employer, while about 9% purchase it directly.[2] Various government agencies provide coverage to about 28% of Americans (there is some overlap in these figures).

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And

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The employer typically makes a substantial contribution towards the cost of coverage.[28] Typically, employers pay about 85% of the insurance premium for their employees, and about 75% of the premium for their employees' dependents. The employee pays the remaining fraction of the premium, usually with pre-tax/tax-exempt earnings. These percentages have been stable since 1999.[29] Health benefits provided by employers are also tax-favored: Employee contributions can be made on a pre-tax basis if the employer offers the benefits through a section 125 cafeteria plan.

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And

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In 2008, over 95% of employers with at least 50 employees offered health insurance.

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So the other 5% that didnt offer health insurance is going to have to pay $2000 per employee under this bill. Under this bill, excuse me, law, they will lose all the subsidies and tax credits that Bush offered to them for keeping their insurance or benefits for their retirees under their union plans.

So i dont buy this "evil rich mean white men dont care about the poor" bullshit. Its LEFT wing propaghanda, and whats funny is the people criticizing are usually MILLIONAIRES themselves in the Dem party.

Lets look at just what these evil insurance companies make shall we:

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Overall, the profit margin for health insurance companies was a modest 3.4 percent over the past year, according to data provided by Morningstar. That ranks 87th out of 215 industries and slightly above the median of 2.2 percent. By this measure, the most profitable industry over the past year has been beverages, with a 25.9 percent profit margin. Right behind that were healthcare real-estate trusts (firms that are basically the landlords for hospitals and healthcare facilities) and application-software (think Windows). The worst performer was copper, with a profit margin of minus 56.6 percent.

If you're wondering about Exxon, with its history of gargantuan profits, its profit margin was 9 percent over the past 12 months, according to the research firm Capital IQ. The average for the oil and gas industry overall was 10.2 percent, three times the margin in the health insurance industry. And that's nothing compared with high-fliers like Google—which had a 20.6 percent margin—and Microsoft, at 24.9 percent.

Profit margins basically reflect the percentage of revenue left over after paying salaries, expenses, taxes and lots of other things. So it's possible for firms to pay their executives a lot and still have a low profit margin. That's why Merrill Lynch, as an example, was able to pay huge bonuses to some employees while the company itself lost epic amounts of money.

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Among the large, for-profit health insurers, profit margins line up with the industry as a whole. UnitedHealthGroup, the biggest health insurer, had a 4.1 percent profit margin over the past 12 months. WellPoint, the next biggest, had a 4 percent profit margin. Aetna, Cigna, and Humana came in below that.

Health insurers turn out to be underperformers compared with the other parts of the healthcare sector. Pharmaceutical companies have a profit margin of 16.4 percent—seventh highest of the 215 industries that Morningstar tracks. Others segments of healthcare with margins well above the median include healthcare information (9.4 percent), home healthcare firms (8.5 percent), medical labs (8.2 percent), and generic drugmakers (6.5 percent).

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So this claim that the insurance companies are out to gobble everyone up and are making tons of money is absolute HORSESHIT propagated by the left to do what they do best................victimize the people with more money than you.

Anyone that has run a business and i mean REALLY run a business, knows that this means. Unfortunately not everyone has that luxury. Just remember that these rich people are the ones that are employing you.

What happened to people taking initiative ? Personal Responsibility? There are truly people that do need help i agree. But you cant FORCE people to help the less fortunate who are unwilling to help themselves.

the safety net eventually becomes a Hammock.

i like reading this forums nothing ever works!

I am not against your reasoning Vteckidd, actually it sounds pretty solid to me, but then again my perspective on "health insurance" is limited at best, and I don't seem to have any means to get a formal education on the matter, and I am not exactly sure if "the internet" counts. But please excuse my lack of data on the posts I make because "politics" is not really a hobby of mine, and I seem to be more comfortable basing my "opinions" off my own experiences. I almost feel like we could begin copying and pasting numbers that back up our opinions all day...but how fucking boring would that would be. I sure as hell am not going to read it much less have a conversation about it unless there are some pussies and titties involved and the potential of my penis going in and out of them.

And maybe I have not read through this forum enough, but I do not see hardly ANY posts actually hailing this as a democratic victory (which by any definition of the word it is) instead of a liberal onslaught heralding the beginning of the apocalypse.

This non-fox news or msnbc video I understand seems to be nailing your gripes. but the polls seem to say 63% of americans (not VtecKidds or Streethazards or IA's polls) want universal heathcare. but vary up and down depending upon political affiliations and cost. That means almost 2/3 of the population does not think the current healthcare system works for them, and I just so happen to agree with them. I am happy that all of the unemployed people and their families can finally get the care they need, and I am also open-minded to the possibility of social and societal reform.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?...ag=mncol;lst;1

Forced or not, it is certainly an improvement for many millions of people that simply had no option before.

Ill readily admit my knowledge on these matters is limited, but I cannot help but feel that any opinion I put forth here will immediately be nullified by a cacophony of strictly GOP sponsored rebuttals. I am not sure how much of a "debate" this forum really is, then just a circle jerk of like-minded individuals.

























By the way VtecKidd.............I already dented the downpipe on your header, I need a new one :( at this rate ill be your valued customer!

We have our opinions, I won't hold it against you (seriously) just like I expect you wouldn't hold my philosophies against me. It gets heated in here and we all want the same thing, the best for our fellow citizens and ourselves.

If you don't know as much as you think you should that's fine Tony knows a lot more about wallstreet and David88vert knows way more specifics than I do.

tHis is why I like this forum it's something I think congress lacks right now..........exchanging of ideas. Even though we don't agree we can still debate a topic.

For me, only this view I have works mathmatically in my mind. I get the "providing for your fellow citizen" argument. But I think it is at the expense of of our fellow citizens when it will most likely cost them their job, pay raise, etc. I also understand that to have a truly thriving society you have to have entrepeneurs and people that risk it all and fail , pick themselves back up and try again. You have to have rich and poor, because any other type of society has failed.

It's tough to balance it all but I think we can do better

that's just me

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Originally Posted by Vteckidd

What happened to people taking initiative ? Personal Responsibility? There are truly people that do need help i agree. But you cant FORCE people to help the less fortunate who are unwilling to help themselves.

the safety net eventually becomes a Hammock.

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amen on that respose. the first time in my life i have asked anyone for a little help and i was thrown out while "professional moocher" were rushed through, all at the taxpayers dime too. i recently found out that in my county they did a sweep and cleaned up a bunch of people abusing the system. example a month ago i saw a lady driving a brand new lexus, hair done etc that gets $800/mo on food stamps. i was like WTF.

Wow, well... thank you Vteckidd and Banginjimmy... thats a lot of good information.

From what Ive gathered I think its a good idea to a degree but maybe executed the wrong way... But I may have a personal bias I have a sister with a very serious illness and without her insurance being legally required to cover it (they searched to find a way out of it) my family would have went bankrupt attempting to foot the bill.

What would have probably happened is we wouldnt have been able to cover her almost 1 mil. dollar surgery and she wouldnt have been able to make her full recovery to live her life. I think this is one of the "executive" decisions that some people of power have to make sometimes that we may not like but may see good in after some time.

As I have said before, there are several parts of the bill I do like, but as you said, it was done the wrong way. I like the language that says you can stay on your parents policy until age 26, but limits it to only those that are unemployed or their employer doesnt offer medical benefits. I like the bans on yearly and lifetime caps on coverage. I like that you cannot be dropped for a pre-existing condition, but I think that that provision needs to be limited to those that disclose any conditions. If you purposely fail to disclose a condition, that counts as insurance fraud in my book.

The problem I have with the bill is that it does absolutely nothing to bend the cost curve down. If anything it will bend it up. Additional taxes on insurance companies mean a rise in rates. An additional tax on medical device companies means rates go UP. A rise in taxes on pharmaceuticals means rates go UP. Adding huge amounts of additional risk with no way to charge those with high risk means rates go UP. Reduced payments to docs from medicare and medicaid mean rates go UP. I honestly cannot think of anything in this bill that will bring rates down.

Just wanted to add this...for those that said that the Healthcare bill would lower premiums for health insurance and we told you it would not. Guess what it did not. Got my bill for my health/dental/vison insurance next month and guess what it went up $13 a month. Now luckly for my business its just me, but if I had 10 employee's that would be a pretty big amount per month... $130 more a month to spend or an additional $1560 a year. Now might not be that much, but it went up rather than down.

This will get taken advantage of and raped just like welfare.

Bumping this to the top to see if anyone has changed their mind over the last 6 months or so.


Pretty much everything that was talked about is coming true. Coverages are being cut back as several of the largest issuers of child only medical plans have since stopped writing new policies, effective about a day before the mandate to require insurers to insure all kids at the same price kicked in. Premiums are rising faster than they were before the bill took effect. I could go on, but everyone knows all of the criticisms already.


I will add that I am still not for an all out repeal of the bill. It has some good portions of it that will really help the consumers and will not hurt the insurers all that bad. What I am all in for is a repeal contingent on passing a new bill. One that is centered on the private sector regulations, such as coverage limits, not the expansion of entitlement programs.

When have insurance premiums ever gone down though? Seems like every year I've been working the costs have gone up and the coverage has gone down. Less people are employed meaning less people have insurance. The size of the pool, and therefore the profit margin, is shrinking.

The only real parts of the bill that have gone into effect as of right now are as follows:

Effective September 23, 2010

* Insurance companies will be prohibited from imposing lifetime dollar limits on essential benefits, like hospital stays in new policies issued.[41]
* Dependents (children) will be permitted to remain on their parents' insurance plan until their 26th birthday,[42] and regulations implemented under the Act include dependents that no longer live with their parents, are not a dependent on a parent’s tax return, are no longer a student, or are married.[43][44]
* Insurers are prohibited from excluding pre-existing medical conditions (except in grandfathered individual health insurance plans) for children under the age of 19.[45][46]
* Insurers are prohibited from charging co-payments or deductibles for Level A or Level B preventive care and medical screenings on all new insurance plans.[47]
* Individuals affected by the Medicare Part D coverage gap will receive a $250 rebate, and 50% of the gap will be eliminated in 2011.[48] The gap will be eliminated by 2020.
* Insurers' abilities to enforce annual spending caps will be restricted, and completely prohibited by 2014.[31]
* Insurers are prohibited from dropping policyholders when they get sick.[31]
* Insurers are required to reveal details about administrative and executive expenditures.[31]
* Insurers are required to implement an appeals process for coverage determination and claims on all new plans.[31]
* Indoor tanning services are subjected to a 10% service tax.[31]
* Enhanced methods of fraud detection are implemented.[31]
* Medicare is expanded to small, rural hospitals and facilities.[31]
* Medicare patients with chronic illnesses must be monitored/evaluated on a 3 month basis for coverage of the medications for treatment of such illnesses.
* Non-profit Blue Cross insurers are required to maintain a loss ratio (money spent on procedures over money incoming) of 85% or higher to take advantage of IRS tax benefits.[31]
* Companies which provide early retiree benefits for individuals aged 55–64 are eligible to participate in a temporary program which reduces premium costs.[31]
* A new website installed by the Secretary of Health and Human Services will provide consumer insurance information for individuals and small businesses in all states.[31]
* A temporary credit program is established to encourage private investment in new therapies for disease treatment and prevention.[31]

The mandate and the exchanges won't be here until 2014. Those are the two biggest parts of the legislation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Total_Blender

When have insurance premiums ever gone down though? Seems like every year I've been working the costs have gone up and the coverage has gone down. Less people are employed meaning less people have insurance. The size of the pool, and therefore the profit margin, is shrinking.

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Agreed. Premiums will never go down unless the cost curve to insurers is pushed down. Increasing taxes on insurers and providers will do the exact opposite.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Total_Blender

The only real parts of the bill that have gone into effect as of right now are as follows:

Effective September 23, 2010

* Insurance companies will be prohibited from imposing lifetime dollar limits on essential benefits, like hospital stays in new policies issued.[41]
* Dependents (children) will be permitted to remain on their parents' insurance plan until their 26th birthday,[42] and regulations implemented under the Act include dependents that no longer live with their parents, are not a dependent on a parent’s tax return, are no longer a student, or are married.[43][44]
* Insurers are prohibited from excluding pre-existing medical conditions (except in grandfathered individual health insurance plans) for children under the age of 19.[45][46]
* Insurers are prohibited from charging co-payments or deductibles for Level A or Level B preventive care and medical screenings on all new insurance plans.[47]
* Individuals affected by the Medicare Part D coverage gap will receive a $250 rebate, and 50% of the gap will be eliminated in 2011.[48] The gap will be eliminated by 2020.
* Insurers' abilities to enforce annual spending caps will be restricted, and completely prohibited by 2014.[31]
* Insurers are prohibited from dropping policyholders when they get sick.[31]
* Insurers are required to reveal details about administrative and executive expenditures.[31]
* Insurers are required to implement an appeals process for coverage determination and claims on all new plans.[31]
* Indoor tanning services are subjected to a 10% service tax.[31]
* Enhanced methods of fraud detection are implemented.[31]
* Medicare is expanded to small, rural hospitals and facilities.[31]
* Medicare patients with chronic illnesses must be monitored/evaluated on a 3 month basis for coverage of the medications for treatment of such illnesses.
* Non-profit Blue Cross insurers are required to maintain a loss ratio (money spent on procedures over money incoming) of 85% or higher to take advantage of IRS tax benefits.[31]
* Companies which provide early retiree benefits for individuals aged 55–64 are eligible to participate in a temporary program which reduces premium costs.[31]
* A new website installed by the Secretary of Health and Human Services will provide consumer insurance information for individuals and small businesses in all states.[31]
* A temporary credit program is established to encourage private investment in new therapies for disease treatment and prevention.[31]

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I am a fan of many of these things which is why I am against an strait up repeal without something to take its place. Something FAR less expensive and FAR less intrusive. Your third point is the one I was talking about. The largest providers are no longer writing those policies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Total_Blender

The mandate and the exchanges won't be here until 2014. Those are the two biggest parts of the legislation.

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You are correct. They are also the most expensive and will cost a couple hundred billion a year, never mind the constitutional questions of the mandate. I could even live with those things if there was any chance they would lower costs, or even level them out, without eroding the level of care. We all know that this bill will not do that though.

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Originally Posted by RedEj8

The problem is the American voter.. Stop voting Democrat or Republican so we can bring in some people that really care.

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YES!!! Someone else that has a brain for themselves. Why DO we solely vote Demo/Repub? What makes them so amazing from the rest? Why not give an Independent or two a change to run? Or.... let one Independent have 2 terms and another one term? And... then when we elect them, stand behind them in reasonable ideas? Why do we elect if we're just going to bash everyone for every idea they've ever had, period?

That would be awesome!

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Originally Posted by blaknoize

YES!!! Someone else that has a brain for themselves. Why DO we solely vote Demo/Repub? What makes them so amazing from the rest? Why not give an Independent or two a change to run? Or.... let one Independent have 2 terms and another one term? And... then when we elect them, stand behind them in reasonable ideas? Why do we elect if we're just going to bash everyone for every idea they've ever had, period?

That would be awesome!

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I agree, but I would go one step further. Dump the political party system and the career politicians completely. Get rid of the current version of primaries in which we pick a dem and gop candidate. Go to the open primary system in which the top 2 candidates run in the general election and party doesnt matter in the least.

I am not trying to sound bias in any way, nor am I saying that I completely agree with the Government providing healthcare or Welfare nor am I a Republican or Democrat, but many of the people here that disagree with all this have probably never been in a tough situation where life demands more than they can handle at the moment. There are times when you lose your job and you have kids to feed. What are you expected to do? There have been many families that have gone through this during this recession. I believe Government help should be there for those that need it while going through tough times or such; not for those that want to exploit the system and live off it.

I have noticed specially here in GA (I come from Rhode Island) that many companies do not hire Full-Time employees but have them work 40HRS+. Stop and think why they do that? TO AVOID HAVING TO GIVE THEIR EMPLOYEES BENEFITS and for some reason many people still think there is nothing wrong with that. I have noticed a huge difference between Rhode Island (and most Northeastern states) and Georgia. Georgia's laws are there mostly to help the businesses and corporations. I have seen many cases and have lived them so no one come here and tell me that it's BS where companies fire people for no reason and there is nothing that can be done about it. Try that in a Northeastern state and see what happens.

The point I'm trying to get across is that I have encountered many people like some of the ones I have seen on this thread here in GA where their mentality is set on benefiting businesses and thinking of profit rather than to try and think for what's best for all of us. I don't know about you guys but this world would be a much better place if we all thought of what's best for ALL OF US rather than a few of us that have power over the rest.

AGAIN, I am not talking about providing help for everyone, but more like let's think of all of us rather than some of us. Money and Profiting is not everything.

I'm sure alot of you will disagree with me on this but most of us go through a stage in life where we are all forced to seek for help and that's when you realize something like this. Maybe I think like this because I come from a foreign country where no help is given at all, and the rich only think of themselves and I see how things turn out to be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nelson9995

I am not trying to sound bias in any way, nor am I saying that I completely agree with the Government providing healthcare or Welfare nor am I a Republican or Democrat, but many of the people here that disagree with all this have probably never been in a tough situation where life demands more than they can handle at the moment. There are times when you lose your job and you have kids to feed. What are you expected to do? There have been many families that have gone through this during this recession. I believe Government help should be there for those that need it while going through tough times or such; not for those that want to exploit the system and live off it.

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I agree, but I also think that their should be a firm limit on the length of time ou can continue to get govt handouts, no matter what form they take.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nelson9995

I have noticed specially here in GA (I come from Rhode Island) that many companies do not hire Full-Time employees but have them work 40HRS+. Stop and think why they do that? TO AVOID HAVING TO GIVE THEIR EMPLOYEES BENEFITS and for some reason many people still think there is nothing wrong with that. I have noticed a huge difference between Rhode Island (and most Northeastern states) and Georgia. Georgia's laws are there mostly to help the businesses and corporations. I have seen many cases and have lived them so no one come here and tell me that it's BS where companies fire people for no reason and there is nothing that can be done about it. Try that in a Northeastern state and see what happens.

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No employer, in any state, is required to give benefits to anyone. That is why it is called a benefit. GA laws do benefit employers, and I am in full agreement with that. The employer owns that job, not the person currently occupying it. If an employer does not want someone in the job they hold, they should be able to fire them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nelson9995

The point I'm trying to get across is that I have encountered many people like some of the ones I have seen on this thread here in GA where their mentality is set on benefiting businesses and thinking of profit rather than to try and think for what's best for all of us. I don't know about you guys but this world would be a much better place if we all thought of what's best for ALL OF US rather than a few of us that have power over the rest.

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Do you agree with this quote? From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.

The job of a business is to create profit. Without profit there is no expansion of the business. Without expansion there are no new employees. What good is a business that only makes enough to survive?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nelson9995

I'm sure alot of you will disagree with me on this but most of us go through a stage in life where we are all forced to seek for help and that's when you realize something like this. Maybe I think like this because I come from a foreign country where no help is given at all, and the rich only think of themselves and I see how things turn out to be.

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People are given more than enough help in this country. In this country, poverty is a choice you make, it is not a predetermined status.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BanginJimmy

No employer, in any state, is required to give benefits to anyone. That is why it is called a benefit. GA laws do benefit employers, and I am in full agreement with that. The employer owns that job, not the person currently occupying it. If an employer does not want someone in the job they hold, they should be able to fire them.

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The employer or businessman does not own that job. Maybe when he/she first started it and were part of every aspect of that company they are growing, but they are not the sole "owners" of whatever role you play. It may be labeled as a "benefit" but without you doing your "job" the business wouldn't function. Especially if all of US arent performing our functions for the business, then it wouldnt even exist as such a large corporation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BanginJimmy

The job of a business is to create profit. Without profit there is no expansion of the business. Without expansion there are no new employees. What good is a business that only makes enough to survive?

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The same holds true from a personal perspective. Being raised in Southern Ohio I had the wonderful experience of just surviving. If you as a person and yall as a company are growing, why not treat the personnel as actual people, like Google or Apple? They are surely growing (not actually sure about Apple anymore) and many many many people wish they could work for a company that treats a person like a person and not an expendable number. "Benefits" breaks, wonderful working environment, great pay. They are a group of happy, well taken care of and amazing employees that "want" to keep their business growing. The business itself isn't growing without the help of its people, no pay cuts are needed and no outsourcing is needed because the employees generate that income for that business.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BanginJimmy

People are given more than enough help in this country. In this country, poverty is a choice you make, it is not a predetermined status.

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Poverty is NOT a choice. I just so happen to be raised in an impoverished area. I didnt CHOSE to make $5.15 an hr and just make it by from paycheck to paycheck. Get the fuk outta here with that. I also didnt CHOSE to be educated in the failing school system of Southern Ohio. I even moved, on a thought to Atlanta to find a better area to try and work and made it no better for myself.

Also a very good example is my friend DJ who currently resides in Southern Ohio (Portsmouth, OH) he works 3 jobs (1 day on Sunday at Church which is $100 for organ playing) part-time at Hillview Retirement Homes making 7.10 an hr and part time at Lil Caesar's making 7.45 an hour working 55hrs a week. Strapped with College debt of 34k (dropped out, or failed out due to transportation issues) and can barely make his payments after paying for fuel, partial rent/utilities, driving a 1996 Toyota Camry with 268k on it. He was born in Akron, OH, raised in Portsmouth, OH and he is still currently trying to make it better for himself. Doesnt make enough to successfully move, doesnt have the education he needs to push his career along (in whatever he desires) although he has been trying and trying for the past 3yrs to get out of Portsmouth. You tell him that he decided he wants to be in poverty and wanted to remain there!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BanginJimmy

I agree, but I also think that their should be a firm limit on the length of time ou can continue to get govt handouts, no matter what form they take.

No employer, in any state, is required to give benefits to anyone. That is why it is called a benefit. GA laws do benefit employers, and I am in full agreement with that. The employer owns that job, not the person currently occupying it. If an employer does not want someone in the job they hold, they should be able to fire them.

Do you agree with this quote? From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.

The job of a business is to create profit. Without profit there is no expansion of the business. Without expansion there are no new employees. What good is a business that only makes enough to survive?

People are given more than enough help in this country. In this country, poverty is a choice you make, it is not a predetermined status.

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This is what I meant; CONTROLLED;

I don't agree because that gives the employer room to fire for reasons that are not legitimate. I know a person who got fired because she would not have sex with her employee. I know she should have sued him but that's another story. My mother got fired over a disagreement she had with her manager even though in 3 years she was never late, never called out and performed her job well. This is why I don't agree with it. It gives a single person the ability to ruin the financial status of a person. Which can greatly influence a person's psychological status.

Of course but it's a double edged sword.

I agree that businesses sometimes cannot provide benefits when starting and it is understood, but what about companies like WalMart and Home Depot. They both don't hire full time. No chance. They do this to not give benefits and trust me they have the funds to. A study showed that Wal Mart can afford to pay each of their employees $26 an hour and still make a huge profit. I'm not saying they should but come on, starting at $7.50? and after 2 years $8. something? This is what I'm talking about. This is how companies take advantage and it is called greed and exploitation whether you want to accept it or not. We are all humans and deserve to be treated as humans not as machines. So if an employee gets hurt working and they are classified as "Part-Time" which is just a classification because most of them are working 40+ Hours, they should just be thrown out? and this is what most companies will do because the law backs them up; they can fire without having a legitimate reason.

Same with Verizon, I applied because they needed a bilingual employee for their English and Spanish speaking customers. I have interpretor experience and they still only offered to pay minimum wage. That's not the worse part. They demanded me to work 40+ hours a week but said they could not hire full time. Are you kidding me? I know they can afford to offer benefits.

I understand this. Anyone can rise here and become somebody important, quite yet become rich; what I meant was that there are times when we sometimes fall in situations where we need help and I believe that help should be there while you get yourself back on your feet.

I agree with you for the most part BlakNoize

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nelson9995

A study showed that Wal Mart can afford to pay each of their employees $26 an hour and still make a huge profit.

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Link the study because I guarantee you that study was the same one that meant all employees, included the ones such as regional vp's and executives who are making 6-7 figures. Of course with redistribution of wealth, the bottom end of the curve always looks so much nicer. The point is though, are people like the stockers and cashiers really doing a job thats worth 26$/hour? Yeah fucking right. Are the executives doing a job thats worth far more than 26$/hour. Yes. Welcome to pay grade. The human capital of a stocker compared to an executive is miniscule.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nelson9995

I don't agree because that gives the employer room to fire for reasons that are not legitimate. I know a person who got fired because she would not have sex with her employee. I know she should have sued him but that's another story.

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You are comparing apples to oranges here. Sexual harassment is against the law for a reason.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nelson9995

My mother got fired over a disagreement she had with her manager even though in 3 years she was never late, never called out and performed her job well. This is why I don't agree with it. It gives a single person the ability to ruin the financial status of a person. Which can greatly influence a person's psychological status.

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He is the manager, as long as it is part of the job and not illegal, if the manager says to do something it is the employees job to do it, not argue with the manager. Insubordination will get you fired from pretty much every job, including union jobs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nelson9995

I agree that businesses sometimes cannot provide benefits when starting and it is understood, but what about companies like WalMart and Home Depot. They both don't hire full time. No chance. They do this to not give benefits and trust me they have the funds to.

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You are also talking about mostly low end jobs meant for high schoolers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nelson9995

A study showed that Wal Mart can afford to pay each of their employees $26 an hour and still make a huge profit.

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I would also like to see this study as I just read one that uses real numbers that tells a vastly different story.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by article

If Walmart took its entire $22 billion of annual pre-tax income and used all of it to give each one of its 2.1 million employees a raise, this would amount to about $10,000 a year apiece.

In other words, if Walmart decided to use 100% of its operating profit to pay all of its employees more, the average store associate's salary would go from $20,000 to $30,000.

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30k a year is nowhere near $26/hr and what I just posted took pre-tax profits, not post tax.
http://www.businessinsider.com/walmart-employees-pay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nelson9995

I'm not saying they should but come on, starting at $7.50? and after 2 years $8. something? This is what I'm talking about.

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I just gotta tell you, stocking shelves is not exactly a field with a shortage of qualified applicants. Your average HS dropout can typically manage it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nelson9995

This is how companies take advantage and it is called greed and exploitation whether you want to accept it or not.

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No, it is called smart business and paying people what they are worth. If you are trying to raise a family on a Wal-Mart retail job, then you have already failed in life.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nelson9995

So if an employee gets hurt working and they are classified as "Part-Time" which is just a classification because most of them are working 40+ Hours, they should just be thrown out? and this is what most companies will do because the law backs them up; they can fire without having a legitimate reason.

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If you are hurt while at work it is called workers comp. For the small price of paying out on a workers comp claim a company like walmsrt wont even question you too hard about the injury unless something is really wrong and the facts dont line up with the injury.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nelson9995

Same with Verizon, I applied because they needed a bilingual employee for their English and Spanish speaking customers. I have interpretor experience and they still only offered to pay minimum wage. That's not the worse part. They demanded me to work 40+ hours a week but said they could not hire full time. Are you kidding me? I know they can afford to offer benefits.

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Minimum wage is not uncommon for a job that also pays commissions on sales. Its a buyers job market right now. A smart company will milk it for what its worth. I also believe that Verizon franchises their stores, they are not all owned by the parent corporation. If this is the case, then the store may not have been able to offer benefits. Remember, a benefits package and the employer portion of taxes cost a lot of money and in some low end jobs, it may cost more than the employee itself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nelson9995

I understand this. Anyone can rise here and become somebody important, quite yet become rich; what I meant was that there are times when we sometimes fall in situations where we need help and I believe that help should be there while you get yourself back on your feet.

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And it is there already so what are you complaining about?