POLL: Obama - your take now?

[MachNU]

/thread

x2

[Total_Blender]

Basically the gist of your post was that universal coverage healthcare reduces profit margins.

But what about the increased productivity from a healthy and more capable workforce? Also, under a single-payer plan you'll be spending more in taxes, but nothing essentially nothing on private insurance so it would balance out.

All the talk of wait times, rationing etc is just right wing propaganda. Healthcare is an area where everyone will have something to bitch about, no matter how good it is there will always be room for improvement.

As far as the "underemployed" I really do think they deserve healthcare. Sure they might need to seek better opportunities, but there will always be people filling those roles. When Johnny Frycook gets promoted to Shift Leader they're going to hire someone else to make fries. There will always be management and there will always be fry cooks, and it kind of takes the dignity out of honest work when you say that those who work lower wage jobs deserve to be punished.

[Bajjani]

Basically the gist of your post was that universal coverage healthcare reduces profit margins.

But what about the increased productivity from a healthy and more capable workforce? Also, under a single-payer plan you'll be spending more in taxes, but nothing essentially nothing on private insurance so it would balance out.

All the talk of wait times, rationing etc is just right wing propaganda. Healthcare is an area where everyone will have something to bitch about, no matter how good it is there will always be room for improvement.

As far as the "underemployed" I really do think they deserve healthcare. Sure they might need to seek better opportunities, but there will always be people filling those roles. When Johnny Frycook gets promoted to Shift Leader they're going to hire someone else to make fries. There will always be management and there will always be fry cooks, and it kind of takes the dignity out of honest work when you say that those who work lower wage jobs deserve to be punished.

Some jobs are meant for kids inhigh school to earn an extra buck
No, costs won't balance out. You'd pay less for privatized insurance than you would for the new reform plan.

Reduced profit margins for companies means increased costs to consumer. Heard of the law of unintended consequences? Shits reaaaaaaaaal.

[tony]

The bolded are quotes from tony from his other thread, incase anyone was wondering.

From the Economic standpoint, imagine how much more entrepreneurship and innovation we would have when people don't have to worry about health care when they venture out on their own and start their business. Furthermore a lot of you get it F'd up when it comes to a universal plan, its not like nobody pays anything.. there is still a premium to pay but it is substantially less than the $200-$2000 a month premiums you see now.

Well, this is 100% backwards. The tax alone on one of the companies that I own will be approximately 5% of gross REVENUE. That is really about 15% of Gross Profit. And it ends up after overhead being approximately 33% of net profit in a year like 2008. You know one of the easiest ways to cut costs? Layoffs. Hello unemployment (thats already happening). It won't inspire companies to do more R&D, they have to show that as expense in the year it occurs. If the Gov't wanted to inspire R&D they could go back to allowing depreciation over the course the R&D generates revenue. It won't inspire new businesses because the cost of opening a new business goes up DRAMATICALLY. Failed point.


A universal system does nothing but reduce the cost of healthcare so it is easily affordable and obtainable for persons like me who can afford coverage and those making $6.50 an hour who cannot. It also takes away the notion that life decisions our decided on a cost basis and not a need basis. For every story I hear about someone in another country WAITING for something I can give you another story of someone REJECTED because they did not have adequate insurance or the procedure was not cost effective.

Call me unsympathetic, call me an ass, maybe that person making minimum wage should go read a fucking book, learn a trade, and get out of the fucking ghetto. I know plenty of high school dropouts that make 10-25 an hour with 1.5 OT and bring home 70k a year, hell a truck driver brings more than 6.50. It is to bad that people aren't hiring because they are doing this new healthcare bill that increases costs to companies. Man, that sucks.

What else does Brazil and Russia, China and India have in common that would cause them all to be emerging economically? Its far from a coincidence that ALL four... 100% of them have a Universal Healthcare system. I don't see how some of you can think it has this great negative impact but can't fathom the idea that it has a great impact in another way as well.

Brazil has a lot more exports. Russia has a growing stock market. China has cheap labor and more exports, and India has cheap labor. Do you want to know why they are growing? Because everyone is buying their shit, it has nothing to do with healthcare. Just saying.

I'll gladly wait an extra hour or two..even a month I don't care if it means that the person that is building the roads I drive on, the individual who makes my sandwich at Subway.. the teacher who teaches my child in school can all get the healthcare they require because currently a lot of them cannot.

Not everyone has an extra hour or two, or a month. My cousin's husband had an eye infection, they gave him eye drops, he really had a detached retina and because they had a nurse (not a dr) diagnose him, the nurse didn't know the symptoms, they pushed him away, hes not 100% blind in that eye. This was in your socialist healthcare economy. Call me fuckin stupid but I'd rather pay for my own healthcare and get proper treatment.

I only read some of your posts and even then I browsed thru them, I don't feel like reading all the bitching back in forth in the old thread.


Someone said it in your old thread as well, "there is no such thing as a free lunch."

If the bill passes, companys will increase costs and decrease work force, outsource what they can for cheaper services (to india for example), unemployment goes up, prices of our goods go up unless they manage to cut enough costs, consumers end up having to pay higher prices, and who gets fucked inthe end.

And as I said to the other person, its a simple difference of ideology, nothing more. Neither of us can say what will or wont happen, only time will tell and the legislation is moving. Reps for the reply though.

[Atlblkz06]

The bolded are quotes from tony from his other thread, incase anyone was wondering.

From the Economic standpoint, imagine how much more entrepreneurship and innovation we would have when people don't have to worry about health care when they venture out on their own and start their business. Furthermore a lot of you get it F'd up when it comes to a universal plan, its not like nobody pays anything.. there is still a premium to pay but it is substantially less than the $200-$2000 a month premiums you see now.

Well, this is 100% backwards. The tax alone on one of the companies that I own will be approximately 5% of gross REVENUE. That is really about 15% of Gross Profit. And it ends up after overhead being approximately 33% of net profit in a year like 2008. You know one of the easiest ways to cut costs? Layoffs. Hello unemployment (thats already happening). It won't inspire companies to do more R&D, they have to show that as expense in the year it occurs. If the Gov't wanted to inspire R&D they could go back to allowing depreciation over the course the R&D generates revenue. It won't inspire new businesses because the cost of opening a new business goes up DRAMATICALLY. Failed point.


A universal system does nothing but reduce the cost of healthcare so it is easily affordable and obtainable for persons like me who can afford coverage and those making $6.50 an hour who cannot. It also takes away the notion that life decisions our decided on a cost basis and not a need basis. For every story I hear about someone in another country WAITING for something I can give you another story of someone REJECTED because they did not have adequate insurance or the procedure was not cost effective.

Call me unsympathetic, call me an ass, maybe that person making minimum wage should go read a fucking book, learn a trade, and get out of the fucking ghetto. I know plenty of high school dropouts that make 10-25 an hour with 1.5 OT and bring home 70k a year, hell a truck driver brings more than 6.50. It is to bad that people aren't hiring because they are doing this new healthcare bill that increases costs to companies. Man, that sucks.

What else does Brazil and Russia, China and India have in common that would cause them all to be emerging economically? Its far from a coincidence that ALL four... 100% of them have a Universal Healthcare system. I don't see how some of you can think it has this great negative impact but can't fathom the idea that it has a great impact in another way as well.

Brazil has a lot more exports. Russia has a growing stock market. China has cheap labor and more exports, and India has cheap labor. Do you want to know why they are growing? Because everyone is buying their shit, it has nothing to do with healthcare. Just saying.

I'll gladly wait an extra hour or two..even a month I don't care if it means that the person that is building the roads I drive on, the individual who makes my sandwich at Subway.. the teacher who teaches my child in school can all get the healthcare they require because currently a lot of them cannot.

Not everyone has an extra hour or two, or a month. My cousin's husband had an eye infection, they gave him eye drops, he really had a detached retina and because they had a nurse (not a dr) diagnose him, the nurse didn't know the symptoms, they pushed him away, hes not 100% blind in that eye. This was in your socialist healthcare economy. Call me fuckin stupid but I'd rather pay for my own healthcare and get proper treatment.

I only read some of your posts and even then I browsed thru them, I don't feel like reading all the bitching back in forth in the old thread.


Someone said it in your old thread as well, "there is no such thing as a free lunch."

If the bill passes, companys will increase costs and decrease work force, outsource what they can for cheaper services (to india for example), unemployment goes up, prices of our goods go up unless they manage to cut enough costs, consumers end up having to pay higher prices, and who gets fucked inthe end.

Thank you sir.

Another point - I spend money and time to go to fuckin gym. Why should I pay for the beer drinkin lard ass making $9/hr next door to get $100k surgery when it's HIS FAULT!

Yes there is a counterpoint to this but you see what I'm talkin about

If you want to everyone to get healthy - subsidize things that POSITIVELY REINFORCE healthy habits - like how about having a federally funded and subsidized gym? Its a LOT cheaper than paying for heart surgeries and in the long run it'll be cheaper - and more people will live!


"What else does Brazil and Russia, China and India have in common that would cause them all to be emerging economically? Its far from a coincidence that ALL four... 100% of them have a Universal Healthcare system"

ROFLMAO! If you're poor and sick, you DO NOT want to be in India. Trust me on that one. Universal healthcare in those countries -->

There are people DYING in Canada just waiting for their turn to get a new heart/kidney. So in other words they're getting fucked over because they are paying for healthcare that they will never get. They might as well play the lottery.

[tony]

We turned our nose up to Japan at one time now guess who we are in debt to. To have this mentality like America is still supreme and nobody else compares is ignorant, I see it more and more as I delve deeper into investing.

On the Canada thing, I can only speak from the experience of a very personal friend.. if I knew she wouldn't take it to be a waste of time I'd have her post up exactly what she deals with.. but she's not into the political discussions. Go ahead and keep thinking they die waiting for a kidney, sounds more like partisan propaganda than actual truth.

[Bajjani]

We turned our nose up to Japan at one time now guess who we are in debt to. To have this mentality like America is still supreme and nobody else compares is ignorant, I see it more and more as I delve deeper into investing.

On the Canada thing, I can only speak from the experience of a very personal friend.. if I knew she wouldn't take it to be a waste of time I'd have her post up exactly what she deals with.. but she's not into the political discussions. Go ahead and keep thinking they die waiting for a kidney, sounds more like partisan propaganda than actual truth.

Umm, I have family there. A lot of family there. When there is something wrong with them we fly them into doctors here in the US its that bad. I'm speaking from personal family experience, MULTIPLE encounters with it.

And no one is trying to talk about America being a supreme super power...just we dont wanna fuck ourselves overeither

[Total_Blender]

There are people DYING in Canada just waiting for their turn to get a new heart/kidney. So in other words they're getting fucked over because they are paying for healthcare that they will never get. They might as well play the lottery.

There are people dying everywhere to get organs. Thats why they need the organs in the first place, because they are dying. There are waits for transplants here too, people on the lists die every day

The only people who don't have to wait for transplants are those who have the bankroll to go to some backwards ass country, buy an organ on the black market. I have no sympathy for those people when they die as a result of their hackjob transplants.

[BanginJimmy]

Neither of us can say what will or wont happen, only time will tell and the legislation is moving.

Just look at medicare, medicaid, and the VA for a glimpse into the future. All of them have 1 thing in common. They are grossly over budget every year and they provide second rate care for the extra money.

[Total_Blender]

Just look at medicare, medicaid, and the VA for a glimpse into the future. All of them have 1 thing in common. They are grossly over budget every year and they provide second rate care for the extra money.

The oldtimers I have talked to always tell me about how the VA has been stepping up the quality of their care in the past few years. It may be over budget (not dignifying your assertion that it is until I look at a source) but it meets the needs of the people.

I still think government insurance is a more fair deal than private insurance, as private insurance makes their money by denying claims. There should at least be competition and coverage for those who don't have access to private insurance. Put them side by side for a while and see which one people gravitate toward.

As far as the comment about the Gov't providing gyms for people to stay healthy... execrize is free. It doesn't cost money to run, or do some damn pushups and crunches.

Greater access to preventative care is what will reduce costs. People finding their cancer earlier, better pre-natal care, etc etc. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[zspeed24]

But what about the increased productivity from a healthy and more capable workforce? Also, under a single-payer plan you'll be spending more in taxes, but nothing essentially nothing on private insurance so it would balance out.

They may be healthier but business won't be able to afford to hire anyone. We won't be, any new hires from here on out will be from a staffing service, don't have to carry comp unemployment paid days off and health insurance. Why bother?

[tony]

Ok the wife got mad at me last night cause I kept reading and replying to this thread so I'm going to calm down a bit lol. Either way we can go back and forth till we're blue but obviously reform is needed. What I don't understand is, what makes America so strong is the middle class, not the divide between the haves and the have nots. With the current health system you have those who can afford coverage and those who cannot...

Better yet, who here pays for their health coverage? Plain and simple yes or no. I'm covered under my employer.

[zspeed24]

I pay for myself my wife and my son.

[Hundo®]

Ok the wife got mad at me last night cause I kept reading and replying to this thread so I'm going to calm down a bit lol. Either way we can go back and forth till we're blue but obviously reform is needed.

no, no reform is NEEDED. There's is absolutely nothing wrong with our health care system as it stands.

[Bajjani]

Ok the wife got mad at me last night cause I kept reading and replying to this thread so I'm going to calm down a bit lol. Either way we can go back and forth till we're blue but obviously reform is needed. What I don't understand is, what makes America so strong is the middle class, not the divide between the haves and the have nots. With the current health system you have those who can afford coverage and those who cannot...

Better yet, who here pays for their health coverage? Plain and simple yes or no. I'm covered under my employer.

Yes and No, I'm covered under my employer but I own 49% of the company. Does that count as yes or no?

[Total_Blender]

no, no reform is NEEDED. There's is absolutely nothing wrong with our health care system as it stands.

Are you in the market for a bridge, good sir? I have several to choose from...

New River Gorge, Fayette County VW


Golden Gate Brigde, San Francisco, CA


Brooklyn Bridge, NYC


London Bridge, London UK



Bridge to nowhere, Gravina Island, AK

[AnthonyF]

Voted for McCain, clearly would have been a much better choice.

-Ant.

[Hundo®]

Are you in the market for a bridge, good sir? I have several to choose from...

New River Gorge, Fayette County VW


Golden Gate Brigde, San Francisco, CA


Brooklyn Bridge, NYC


London Bridge, London UK



Bridge to nowhere, Gravina Island, AK

non sense. that's what that post is.

[BanginJimmy]

I am covered through my employer. After my wife was laid off and before my insurance kicked in I looked into a major medical plan. It had a 1k deductible and a 1 mil ceiling. It would only cost me about $150 a month for me and my wife.

Anyone that tells you that health insurance isnt affordable, they are lying. What isnt cheap, but still affordable to someone with a stead job, is a plan that covers regular check-ups, prescriptions and the like.

[Atlblkz06]

Voted for McCain, clearly would have been a much better choice.

-Ant.

Clearly!



Thanks to all who responded.

I hope you guys are able to get a job here soon.
Its rought out there - but you guys will pull through

[Total_Blender]

So how would McCain have done any better?

Here's how I see a McCain presidency unfolding:

1.) Gitmo torture ends but facilities still used to house prisoners (same as it is now)

2.) No health insurance reform of any kind (which is awesome if you like getting screwed by insurance companies)

3.) A deployment to Georgia, Mexican standoff there re-ignites the Cold War.

4.) Increased Russian support of "new cue lurr [sic]" programs in DPRK and Iran.

5.) All the defense debt that comes from deploying on 3 fronts (Georgia, AFGN, Iraq).

6.) No extension of unemployment benefits.

7.) GM, Dodge, and their suppliers collapse. 30-40% unemployment in Michigan. Riots, anarchy in Detroit.

8.) GM collapse is the death blow for US manufacturing. Those mfgr's who are still here say bye-bye.

9.) Gun toting, bible thumping, anti-science conservo-douche appointed to supreme court.

10.) Sarah Palin goes on world speaking tour, alienates every single US ally and just makes us look bad. More American travelers and ex-pats abroad start sewing UK or Canada patches on their jackets.

Thats how I see a Mayor McCheeze running things.

[Hundo®]

So how would McCain have done any better?

Here's how I see a McCain presidency unfolding:

1.) Gitmo torture ends but facilities still used to house prisoners (same as it is now)

2.) No health insurance reform of any kind (which is awesome if you like getting screwed by insurance companies) no ones getting screwed, except idiots who don't check up on multiple plans.

3.) A deployment to Georgia, Mexican standoff there re-ignites the Cold War. no.

4.) Increased Russian support of "new cue lurr [sic]" programs in DPRK and Iran.

5.) All the defense debt that comes from deploying on 3 fronts (Georgia, AFGN, Iraq). Probably more defense debt, yea.

6.) No extension of unemployment benefits. GOOD. No more wasted tax dollars for lazy fucks who refuse to get off their ass and find a job.

7.) GM, Dodge, and their suppliers collapse. 30-40% unemployment in Michigan. Riots, anarchy in Detroit. Negative.

8.) GM collapse is the death blow for US manufacturing. Those mfgr's who are still here say bye-bye. Negative.

9.) Gun toting, bible thumping, anti-science conservo-douche appointed to supreme court. I dunno about you, but i like my fucking guns.

10.) Sarah Palin goes on world speaking tour, alienates every single US ally and just makes us look bad. More American travelers and ex-pats abroad start sewing UK or Canada patches on their jackets.

Isn't that exactly what Obama is doing? Except no one feels alienated for it. He's in every country, once a week, and making a new television appearance daily. He's a complete waste of space.

there you have it.

[Total_Blender]

Well thats my take on what would have happened. And then there was the very real possibility of him kicking the bucket Sarah Palin becoming president... fuck a bunch of that.

Of course it doesn't really matter since we picked the right guy for the job, anyway .

Edit: I like my guns too. I don't give a damn about yours though.

[onebadgt]

i wont get into a 3 page spill and i know it has been mentioned 100 times already but obama is a horrible pres. he has done nothing to help 95% of the population. and he get nominated for the nobel peace prize within his 1st month of presidency. wth did he do in the first month other than smile a lot and spout out lies. but dont call him a liar or you will be like that guy who had charges pressed against him for racial profiling., black, white, asian, hispanic. no matter what color obama is it would still be an awful jon in the white house!

[Total_Blender]

i wont get into a 3 page spill and i know it has been mentioned 100 times already but obama is a horrible pres. he has done nothing to help 95% of the population. and he get nominated for the nobel peace prize within his 1st month of presidency. wth did he do in the first month other than smile a lot and spout out lies. but dont call him a liar or you will be like that guy who had charges pressed against him for racial profiling., black, white, asian, hispanic. no matter what color obama is it would still be an awful jon in the white house!

[Justin51982]

* American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) - $787B "buy-in" plan - PUTTING US DEEPER AND DEEPER INTO DEBT.

* Socialized health care bill (opt-out penalty?) -ANOTHER STEP CLOSER TO A SOCLIALIST SOCIETY - I don't feel the government owes me healthcare

* Winning the Nobel peace prize - I FORGOT THAT HE HAD CREATED SO MUCH WORLD PEACE IN THE MONTH OR SO HE WAS IN OFFICE (SARCASM)

* Energy policiy (smart grid) - I AM UNINFORMED ON THIS AND CANT GIVE MY OPINION.

* Foreign Policy - HE DOES MORE FOR THEM THAN HE DOES FOR US.

* whatever else you can think of. - I won't go there

This is my cliff notes version of my opinions.

[Bajjani]

I had my .02 in here, but advice. Don't call someone stupid for their opinions, more than likely you won't change their opinion but defend your point, argue theirs, and let the cards fall as they will. Be mature in a debate don't flame.

Thats all.

[BanginJimmy]

* Energy policiy (smart grid) - I AM UNINFORMED ON THIS AND CANT GIVE MY OPINION.

Dont forget Cap and Trade which will raise utility bills for for average citizen by 100-200% monthly.

[tony]

I had my .02 in here, but advice. Don't call someone stupid for their opinions, more than likely you won't change their opinion but defend your point, argue theirs, and let the cards fall as they will. Be mature in a debate don't flame.

Thats all.

So true, at the end of the day its just politics. I had to take a couple of days away from political talk cause I could feel it getting personal for me when I know it can't be.

[MachNU]

Its just funny is this thread, almost everyone is agreeing with each other, except Total Bender. You can tell by all his responces, his head is so far up a Donkeys ass ( pun intended) that he is spouting baseless opinions, but when someone trys to rebuttle him you get a responce like "I will only dignify this one with a responce, because all your others are so right, I can not dispute them."

[BanginJimmy]

Its just funny is this thread, almost everyone is agreeing with each other, except Total Bender. You can tell by all his responces, his head is so far up a Donkeys ass ( pun intended) that he is spouting baseless opinions, but when someone trys to rebuttle him you get a responce like "I will only dignify this one with a responce, because all your others are so right, I can not dispute them."

Actually you typically get a pic or a gif when he knows logic and truth are not on his side. The insults usually come pretty quickly also.