We can only hope this ends. I fear what will come after this if it does pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
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We can only hope this ends. I fear what will come after this if it does pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
At least the U.S. now has Czars.:rolleyes: I know, it's random but WTF I'll throw it in anyways.
I was reading about the new Corporate Pay Czar today... Which is still a crazy thing to me. I understand there should be oversight with the companies that received TARP and other bailout money but who honestly believes salary caps will end there for corporations in America. Why even go into business if you will be limited as to how much money you can make?
Wow...somehow TARP and Czars got brought into this?
...
anyways
...
One of the biggest problems with this health care issue is that it's an incredibly complex thing that involves a lot of unknowns and things that are hard to quantify. People seem to be listening more to politicians and political commentators than to doctors and economists. That's why you hear so many complaints about things that aren't even in the bill (e.g. death panels). I'm not implying there aren't plenty of reasonable objections out there, just that those aren't getting as much attention as the bullshit. Neither side has convinced me yet.
I posted this in a previous thread my biggest problem with this health care plan is rationing of services, not to mention the enormous debt that we will all incur and have to repay by paying higher taxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by bu villain
"Have you ever known someone that had to use another countries "universal(socialized)" health plan. I have family that lives in Ireland they have this kind of system. One of my in laws has had polio since she was a child and since this system has been started she can no longer recieve the treatment she is supposed to get to maintain a semi-normal life in the assisted living facility that she lives in. they now have deemed her to have lived far past her expected life span and have taken away 95 percent of her meds... all except her pain meds. I also had an uncle who had a hernia that needed surgery but because he wasn't a laborer and he worked in an office he was forced to wait nine months to recieve the surgery. Is this really the kind of system we need here. personally if i am sick and i need to be treated i should be able to get the treatment i need as soon as I can.
Just my exp/op though."
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu villain
Doctors and economists have been quoted a few times in various threads. They all pretty much say the same things though.
Economists tell us that Obama's numbers dont work out and that socialized healthcare will cost about double what Obama's predictions say. They also say that Obama's cost savings will do little to nothing to offset costs and may even make it more expensive.
Doctors are telling us that tort law, malpractice insurance, and price fixing(medicare) are major factors in driving up costs. The only factor addressed in the current bill is medicare payments which this bill cuts. That would actually make the problem worse, not better.
What do you need to be convinced?
Costs? medicare was expected to cost about 100B over 10 years when it first came into effect, the real costs was about 9x that. In fact, every year medicare and medicaid pay out about 70B in fraudulent claims.
Quality? Ask anyone on medicare and medicaid how they feel about the quality of care. Then combine that with the quality of service that you get at the DMV and there you have it. It will take about 2 years and 2 trillion dollars before the first priority of socialized heathcare will be cost savings, quality will be a distant second.
Most people I know on Medicare/Medicaid are OK with the quality of care. And my dad and the other vets I know seem to like the VA (granted, Dad used to complain A LOT 5-6 years ago when he was fighting them over his Agent Orange benefits, but they have gotten better recently).Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
Rationing, quality of care, etc I really don't see how those are any different than what you'd get with a private insurance company. Private insurance denies treatments and "pulls the plug" on people all the time. :crazy:
So do you think that if someone needs a hip or knee replacement now would get rejected because they are obese? No, but i will promise you that with Obamacare they would because eventually they will need it again.
I like how you guys are calling it Obamacare, when really its Congress who are working on the bills. Granted, they are working with the president, but ultimately Obama is not the main player in this issue, Congress will write the bill and (hopefully) pass it, Obama will just sign it.
The hell of it is that Congress is working hard to include the Republicans like Sen. Isakson, Baucus, and Grassley in the process, but these guys bring nothing to the table.
Obama's healthcare bill does not rule out rationing, so people want to know what the rationing limits are before this kind of healthcare plan is enacted nationally. Is that too much to ask? So far, Democrats have been systematically side-stepping the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Total_Blender
Good read on reality. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/ma...lthcare-t.html
I don't know about the others but pretty sure Isakson wanted nothing to do with this bill...
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Tuesday, August 11, 2009
Isakson Denounces White House Comments Connecting Him
To Terribly Flawed House Health Care Bill
‘This Is What Happens When the President and Members of Congress Don’t Read the Bills’
WASHINGTON – U.S. Senator Johnny Isakson, R-Ga., today denounced comments made by President Obama and his spokesman regarding Isakson’s alleged connection to language contained in the House health care bill on “end-of-life counseling.”
Isakson vehemently opposes the House and Senate health care bills and he played no role in drafting language in the House bill calling for the government to expand Medicare and incentivize doctors by offering them extra money to conduct “end-of-life counseling” with Medicare patients every five years on an extensive list of required topics.
By contrast, Isakson took a very different approach in July during the Senate HELP Committee hearings on the Senate version of the health care bill. Isakson’s amendment to the Senate bill says that anyone who participates in the long-term care benefit in which they put their own money into a health savings account may use their money in this account – if they so choose -- to obtain legal assistance in formulating their own living will and durable power of attorney. Unlike the House bill, Isakson’s amendment would not expand Medicare and would not prescribe any topics that must be discussed.
Isakson’s amendment, which was accepted unanimously by all Republicans and Democrats on the Senate HELP Committee, empowers the individual to make their own choices on these critical issues, rather than the government incentivizing doctors to conduct counseling on government-mandated topics. Isakson ultimately voted against the Senate health care bill.
“This is what happens when the President and members of Congress don’t read the bills. The White House and others are merely attempting to deflect attention from the intense negativity caused by their unpopular policies. I never consulted with the White House in this process and had no role whatsoever in the House Democrats’ bill. I categorically oppose the House bill and find it incredulous that the White House and others would use my amendment as a scapegoat for their misguided policies,” Isakson said. “My Senate amendment simply puts health care choices back in the hands of the individual and allows them to consider if they so choose a living will or durable power of attorney. The House provision is merely another ill-advised attempt at more government mandates, more government intrusion, and more government involvement in what should be an individual choice.”
And honestly who are you kidding that this is not Obamas plan.... Just like michelle sending paitents away from her hospital and sending them to clinics because they didn't have insurance. She was trying to keep her hospital from showing losses because the people wouldn't be able to pay.
I haven't seen a definite method of rationing service yet so I can't say whether I will agree or disagree with how they do it. What I do know is that private insurance companies currently ration services. The less service they have to pay for the more money they make. Insurance companies incentives are directly in opposition with people receiving care.Quote:
Originally Posted by zspeed24
As far as knowing someone who lived under a "socialized" system...yes I personally lived under one in South Korea. Waits for doctors was usually almost non existant even for minor issues (e.g. colds). I had a friend go to the ER after a soccer injury requiring stiches, he was admitted immediately and given a bed. Another friend received an MRI for a few hundred bucks compared to a thousand or more here. You can't lump all universal systems together as if they were the same. (BTW, Korean taxes are around 20-25%)
You think Obama is pulling his numbers out of his ass? He has economists who tell him what they think it'll cost. My point is that, not all economists agree but that too many people (not saying you are one of them) are complaining over talking points (e.g. death panels) which are not legitimate and it takes away from the legitimate concerns. I believe cost is a legitimate concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
I am 100% in favor of tort reform. It would be great if something like that could be added to this bill. If its not then hopefully another bill very soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
I personally don't feel well enough informed of what the true cost would be and so I can't make a fully informed decision. Even if Obama's estimate is wrong, that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't worth the cost. Also, instead of just throwing out a big number (70B) how about comparing it to on a per capita basis to what private insurers pay out in fraudulent claims. That would be a much more useful indicator.Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
In my experience, people on medicare and medicaid are about as happy with it as people who are on private insurance plans.Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
Most of these people have to pay for a suplimental insurance in order for everything to remain covered.Quote:
Originally Posted by bu villain
Which is exactly why I think private insurance and a public option can coexist. The public option could cover a more basic level of coverage and then people can go to private companies to go above and beyond. The hard part is striking the right balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by zspeed24
That is the only reasonable government involved option. That is possibly doable (key work possilby) if only the most basic life saving operations/treatment were covered for citizens and documented aliens (those here legally). Anything not critical would be covered privately.Quote:
Originally Posted by bu villain
Of course, emergency care cannot be denied currently, so why do we need more money thrown at it, and more government intervention?
The only way I would support ANY govt involvement in health insurance would be for congress to set up a system that works only in conjunction with health savings plans. The health savings would cover regular check-ups and services and the govt plan would be major medical only.
The problem with the govet getting their foot in the door is that it wont take long for them to push the door open a little more, and a little more, and a little more. Before long you have complete govt control and everyone asking how it happened.
I cant understand why anyone would want our completely inept govt in charge of their health care. These are the same people that drove Social Security into the ground. The same people that drove medicare into the ground. The same people that are driving the dollar into the ground. Do you really expect them to do any better with health care?
http://www.insurancefraud.org/stats.htm
http://www.insurancefraud.org/images...ives_chart.png
Look at medicare/medicaid and medical. That is just for reported cases this year.
Here is a pretty good read about medical insurance fraud.
http://www.gwumc.edu/sphhs/departmen...632A4F2163.pdf
Where does the fraud in medicare/medicaid come in though? Is it abuse of services by recipients, the hospitals over billing, etc etc? While there is probably rampant fraud, I am not sure if that graph you have posted represents medicare recipients ripping off the gov't as it does the hospitals and administration nickle and diming the gov't.
From other reading I have done about 80% of the fraud is small medical services companies that bill for several million then are gone in a matter of a couple months. Imagine how much more common that will become when there is a shortage of providers.
Prime example both of my grandparents are diabetics, Liberty Medical Supplies sends them their testing supplies they both have scripts for the testing strips that say three strips per day yet liberty sends like 200 strips for both of them a month. We have tried to get them to stop sending so many but they say that what they send is the max medicare allows thats why they ship that quantity. We have ended up canceling one of their scripts so now they are only over by about 20 a month.Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
Thats pretty much what I was thinking, do you have a source for that?Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
So it seems like a reform of the billing practices could eliminate a good deal of fraud and waste from the Medicare system. I'm sure its the same way with Medicaid too, regulating the billing side of it will stop some of the leaks.
Also, if we rolled Medicare, Medicaid, VA, WIC, and public health insurance into one organization, the overhead might be lower. These organizations are all in the Dept of Health and Human Services (except maybe the VA), and already fall under the umbrella of the Public Health Service (PHS), so having one PHS instead of several different and seperate services might make for lower administrative overhead.
But thats not what the plan intends to do.
I will have to look for the presentation I did or find the sources again. As far as anti fraud measures, medic3e has been in front of congress asking for money for anti fraud measures. They were denied the W time payment on several occations even though they are promosing a 13 to 1 return on the money.
Thats not in anything that I have read, thats just solution I thought of. Honestly, there are so many different versions of the health care bill in the house and senate its hard to say whats being proposed and who's proposing it. I think most of the info thats being quoted comes from the Senate bill (the one thats the most likely to get passed) so thats where I get my info.Quote:
Originally Posted by zspeed24
Hopefully when Congress comes back into session, they will have everything condensed into one bill so at least we'll have everything in one place.:crazy:
did a quick search but couldnt find the article I saw the 80% figure in, but do a search for medicare fraud and you will find plenty of info on it.
here is an article you cant help but pay attention to as it is from the democratic PAC, MSNBC.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22184921
I also found an article that says Congress finally approved funds for fraud detection. In the 2 months since it was approved, 371M in fraud has been recovered and 145 people charged.
I find it funny that congress got around to approving the money when Obama is in office, yet killed 2 requests while Bush was in office.
Bush had a republican majority in Congress for about 6 years of his term. :screwy:Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Total_Blender
Should have been more clear, I wasnt talking about Dem or Rep individually.
what jobs again. isn't unempoyment still going up.Quote:
Originally Posted by zspeed24
jimmy had a good one. i have done billing and collections and i found on numerous occasions, esp with st francis hospital in columbus that there were meds or services billed to medicare that were not received, private room charges, etc. but they do this because the gov't pays way less than private insurance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Total_Blender
didn't wanna start a new thread for this...
this statement says it all................
Somebody summed up ObamaCare very concisely:
“Let me get this straight. We’re going to pass a health care plan written by a committee whose head said he doesn’t understand it, passed by a Congress that didn’t read it but exempts them from abiding by it, signed by a President who smokes and is also exempted, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn’t pay his taxes, overseen by a surgeon general who is obese and financed by a country that’s nearly broke. What could possibly go wrong?”
Who in Congress do you know of that hasn't read the bill? I want names.
As far as the committee head "not understanding the bill"... Ted Kennedy was the chair of the Senate committee that wroter the bills and I have not seen a single source that said he "didn't understand the bill". Maybe it was ranking member (and probably the new committee chair) Mike Enzi (R Wyoming)... he's a Republican and they are known for their lack of reading comprehension.
As far as you "obese Surgeon General"... thats current surgeon general Steven Galson in this photo, at a bike ride in Portland, OR thats part of his anti-obesity initiative. I wouldn't call the guy "obese," would you?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3209/...38df81.jpg?v=0
"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."
Ayn Rand
Nobody's listening.
Are you so blinded by the political proaganda that you really believe some of what you say? I mean seriously. Seriously, you would have been a prime candidate to have lived in Germany in 1939. You'd buy that socialist propaganda as much as you do your messiahs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Total_Blender
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0...tldr_super.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by zspeed24
Seriously though, Ayn Rand is a joke. If you take anything she has to say seriously, you are a fool unworthy of Mr T's pity. :goodjob:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Total_Blender
According to you, everyone is either an idiot or a joke unless they are a communist, socialist, or way the fuck out in left field liberal.
Makes you wonder who the real joke is doesnt it?
Whats untrue of that statement... Do you want to pay for GM, your neighbors mortgage, etc.??
You know Jimmy, I really like how it seems you and I are on the same page. Props to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
The difference it, despite what he says, people actually care about Ayn Rand's opinion. People don't care about his, if they did, he'd have a tv show, talk show or periodical section of his own.Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
I take it you're not familiar with the works of Ayn "all of the heroes in my novels are rapists" Rand. Seriously... just reading the Wikipedia article on The Fountainhead made me feel dirty and weird.Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
"If it was rape, it was rape by engraved invitation." - Ayn Rand
http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleim...chart2copy.png
:goodjob: