Self Defense or Excessive Force?

[Terror]

Yeah he really fucked up by shooting him more after the initial headshot... personally if i shot someone in the dome.. id prolly leave it at that.

EDIT: didnt read the second, more in detail posting.

I wouldve busted that faggot too.

[preferredduck]

bullshit. it's like the homeowners who are getting sued for shooting burglars caught in the act of breaking into their house..

better one for ya, nt only do they get sued for shooting, but if aq burgalar falls through your skylight and breaks his leg he will own your house afterwards. thats an old one but true. they come to rob you blind and possibly hurt or kill you in the process and they just sue and win. what a justice system we have today. and it looks like it's going to get even better with this new judge obama put in.

[preferredduck]

i wonder if the second kid will turn himself in since "he is such a good kid". im sorry but if someone came at me with a gun drawn i guess i would go to jail b/c i kind of take my life seriously.

[armyed]

I think he should have reloaded the Judge and emptied it in the guy again just to make a point to other dirt bag criminals that if you come there to rob them you will get killed. No wounding people. Im so tired of people whinning about excessive force on someone who rolled up on you with a gun and was wanting to kill you. Also the NAACP are the new racists. They keep the illusion going that racism is rampid so they can stay in business. They need to be abolished. They used to be an upstanding and a reputable organization when they were needed but now they are like Unions and not needed and making shit up to keep money in there pockets. This incident has nothing to do with blacks and whites. It has to do with 2 armed men came into a mans store with loaded guns and shot at him. Im pretty sure if the guys were white the pharmacist would have done the same thing, I dont think he would have said "oh these guys are white so im gonna give them what they want and im gonna let them shoot me" just my 2 cents

[slowinmidga]

I have no symphathy for the robber but I do feel the pharmacist was a little excessive. If he would have intially pumped him with all 6 rounds it would have been all good but he left came back got another gun stood over him and then shot. A cop couldnt do that so he cant either

[Total_Blender]

After he neutralized the first robber he shouldn't have killed him. The first robber probably would have turned over the one who got away. So really, he got one robber when he could have gotten both. So the use of excessive force really didn't do him much good.

[Vteckidd]

Initially when I posted this I felt the robber got what he asked for but after shooting someone in the head I think you've neutralized the threat. Murder in the 1st degree? ehh.. I think that is a bit harsh.

The charges wont hold up because it has to be pre-meditated. There is no way a robber who comes in with a handgun shooting , and the clerk killing him is premeditated. Plus how do you know he wasnt dead the first few shots that were fired?

I think he if you shoot to kill, you shoot to kill. PERIOD. I Personally have no problem with what he did. Because if he had NOT had a gun, he would be dead right now.

You walk into a business with a gun with the intention of robbing it, you should expect to die

Furthermore, its easy to say "the robber was neutralized" what if he wasnt. This isnt a trained professional, its a store clerk. he was prob scared for his life. He made sure the guy on the floor was DEAD, and not coming back.

I would have done the same thing

[mocha latte cupcake]

self defense all day long.

if he emptied the clip into various parts of his body before he ran out the door the first time... would there have been any issues? don't think so. its the fact that he came back. either way, i agree that he should be let go. i'm tired of people getting away with this i robbed them but they shot me bs. another criminal down way to go pharmacist dude!

[Alan®]

saw some of the security tape from this incident and there is no way in hell these charges will stick you cant see what condition the robber is in once he hits the floor.

[ArK]

self defense and is the pharmacist not black?
with the name jerome?

[The Creeper]

I laughed at the fact of the angry mob outside the pharmacy later that night. every single one of those people should be shot. I hate the stupid pussy ignorance of our society today. If this pharmacist gets in any kind of trouble, all my faith in this country is going out the window. How in the hell could you feel any kind of bad for the robbers? They came in guns drawn, they both deserved to die horrible deaths at this point. Hell, if the pharmacist took out a machete and cut the piece of shits head off, I would be ok with it. This piece of shit tried to rob and kill him, he has all right to shoot that mother fucker as many times as he wants in my book. Fuck the pussy liberal tree hugging society we have become.

[Danny]

Its funny, I search for the text of the second version of the story and all that comes up are sites that for gun owners and right wingers, the quote I posted came from ABC News. Seriously some people will go to great lengths to push their agenda.

I'd love to be biased seeing as how the man is retired Air Force but that doesn't mean I'll alter the story in support of the guy.

exactly why alot of people say STFU unless you were there, looks like it goes for this case too.

[One_Bad_SHO]

I'm interested in knowing, of the people who responded to this thread, who's black and who's white... to see if "they" (you don't know if I'm black or white so stfu) as a group had a differing opinion than the "other" people.

Personally, I think the one shot in the head was good enough. Yeah, he went a bit overboard but srsly, how many ppl have been in a situation like this old man was? I'm sure at that point he was scared, running on pure adrenaline, impulse.... feared for his safety so he wanted to make sure the guy didnt get back up. Who knows? I'll have a better answer when someone puts a gun in my face or tries to rob me. It's bullshit that this guy may be charged.

[The Creeper]

I'm interested in knowing, of the people who responded to this thread, who's black and who's white... to see if "they" (you don't know if I'm black or white so stfu) as a group had a differing opinion than the "other" people.

Personally, I think the one shot in the head was good enough. Yeah, he went a bit overboard but srsly, how many ppl have been in a situation like this old man was? I'm sure at that point he was scared, running on pure adrenaline, impulse.... feared for his safety so he wanted to make sure the guy didnt get back up. Who knows? I'll have a better answer when someone puts a gun in my face or tries to rob me. It's bullshit that this guy may be charged.

I'm white. But to me this has nothing to do with race. If those two guys were white, and the pharmacist was black and did the same thing, I would still be on the pharmacists side. I don't care if he was afraid for his life and that's why he ensured the robber was dead, hell I would be on his side if he was just spiting that dirty piece of shit. Our country is so sad these days, people taking criminals side and shit. Reminds me of those stupid mexicans that were trying to sue that Texas Rancher. I am all for Vigilante Justice.

[One_Bad_SHO]

I'm white. But to me this has nothing to do with race. If those two guys were white, and the pharmacist was black and did the same thing, I would still be on the pharmacists side. I don't care if he was afraid for his life and that's why he ensured the robber was dead, hell I would be on his side if he was just spiting that dirty piece of shit. Our country is so sad these days, people taking criminals side and shit. Reminds me of those stupid mexicans that were trying to sue that Texas Rancher. I am all for Vigilante Justice.

Word.

Whatever happened to the Texas rancher anyway?

[nreggie454]

If you are willing to use deadly force in a robbery, then nobody should cry for you if you get killed. I don't care how it happens. They would have done the same thing if he didn't shoot them first.

[patrick4588]

self defense all day. there is no way that it should even be considered murder. i hate to repeat what every1 in this thread said already, but basically "fuck an armed criminal". threaten ppl and be ready for the consequences. he deserved it 100%

[ShooterMcGavin]

i'm not the jury, but i do have to say good riddance.

[Buttons]

I say excessive force. I agree with the the conclusion from the DA and med examiner. The initial round was fired in self defense but the additional 5, which caused the fatality, were fired when he clearly wasn't a threat. I don't see that as self defense, no matter how much the scumbag is in the wrong. I do however strongly disagree with the murder one charge.

this is what i'm thinking exactly.

[BanginJimmy]

this is what i'm thinking exactly.

Unless you saw a different video than I did, there is no way you can tell if the little punk was a threat or not. It wasnt on the video.

[tony]

He was on the ground with a bullet in his head, do you think he posed an immediate threat?

Better yet put a cop in the mans position, would that cop still have his job today? No, he'd be behind bars.

[The Creeper]

He was on the ground with a bullet in his head, do you think he posed an immediate threat?

Better yet put a cop in the mans position, would that cop still have his job today? No, he'd be behind bars.

A cop is a trained professional in this type of situation, and the pharmacist is not. He handled the situation to the best of ability given the circumstances. This criminal deserves no mercy and deserved what he got IMO.

[tony]

A cop is a trained professional in this type of situation, and the pharmacist is not. He handled the situation to the best of ability given the circumstances. This criminal deserves no mercy and deserved what he got IMO.

Mercy is not a trained skill.

[Gutling]

He did not ask for them fucktards to come in there and threaten to kill him. They made that choice, they put his life above some cash and drugs. If they had shot him before he shot the robbers, they would have likely went back there and killed the two girls as well. I wish he would have caught the other one running out and put a few in his head as well.

[Buttons]

i wasn't able to watch the video, because i was working, but i'll watch it.

[BanginJimmy]

He was on the ground with a bullet in his head, do you think he posed an immediate threat?

Better yet put a cop in the mans position, would that cop still have his job today? No, he'd be behind bars.

As already mentioned a cop is trained to handle those situations. Also, a cop is, and should be, held to a higher standard than your average citizen.


Unless the DA can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the criminal wasnt a threat in any way, this guy should walk.

[Total_Blender]

The real outcome of this case will depend on whether or not the jury decides the robber who got shot was still a threat after the first shot.

There is a fine line between self defense and manslaughter/murder. That this guy went back and emptied his gun into an (arguably) incapacitated person seems like the latter. Do I feel sorry for the perp? No. The real question here is not about the perp or his crime at all, is about whether the pharmacist acted his own right of self-defense and the defense of his staff in taking a human life. Theres no law on the books in America that explicitly gives anyone the right to take a human life. The use of deadly force in self defense is the exception... not the rule.

Heres a selection form the works of professor of law Wik E. Pedia:



[edit] Imperfect Self-Defense

In some jurisdictions, malice can also be negated by imperfect self-defense. Self-defense is considered imperfect when the killer acted from his belief in the necessity for self-defense, but that belief was not reasonable under the circumstances. If the belief in self-defense were reasonable, then the killing would be considered justified and not unlawful. Where the belief is unreasonable, the homicide is considered to be voluntary manslaughter.

[edit] Intent to Kill

Intent to kill is normally present during a voluntary manslaughter case, but is not required. Since most heat of passion and imperfect self-defense killings involve intent to kill, typically voluntary manslaughter involve intentional killings. However, there are occasions when intent to kill is not present, although malice is, for example, when a person responds to oral provocation by engaging in physical altercation. The provocation is sufficient so that his response is justified. Should the response result in the death of the provoker, the crime is either voluntary manslaughter or second degree murder, depending on the jurisdiction.

[/wikipedia]

Anyway, if this guy does get convicted he will probably get some kind of manslaughter charge, he might even plead it down to probation depending on the state laws where he's at.

[BanginJimmy]

While not technically a law, there has been enough case law and statutes set to call self defense an affirmative defense.

[The Creeper]

Mercy is not a trained skill.

I know, but that isn't where I was going with the cop statement. A cop in that situation only wants to disarm the perp, and use deadly force only if all else fails. A normal guy working in a pharmacy is going to go by his instinct to survive, and do what he feels is necessary to keep the perp from harming anyone else. Cops rarely shoot to kill, not because of mercy, but because it is their duty not to kill a perp unless he 100% has to. Either way, it is obvious that a police officer and a normal citizen are to be held at two different standards.

[TheChosenOne]

Phuck that. I don't care what any of these ignorant people on this forum say, but this is a messed up up situation. Yes, the fact that the 2 boys were shot in self-defense is non-arguable, but the going back for more, is just sick.

Just because he was motivated by self-defense, when the kid was laying there with a bullet in his head, I doubt that those last five rounds defended anything but the little itch he had inside of him telling him to shoot the lifeless nihilistic threat that lay slain before him.

Is it a crime??? no

Is it very, very sick, and barbaric??? Without a doubt.

[gerardojdm]

bunch of ignorant ass idiots. Some of the things i read sound more like racism. I had a fucking mexican rob me and im a damn mexican myself. Sometimes i wish i could stick my hand in my monitor so i could pop up yours and slap some sense into people like yall.

Explain how 5 white men beat 1 mexican to death and only get 6 month in jail.

In this case, if Caucasian tryed to rob me, ill knock him out unconscious then ill grab my shot gun and blow his head right off. Or Ill pull out a knife and cut his head off. How does that sound?

[The Creeper]

bunch of ignorant ass idiots. Some of the things i read sound more like racism. I had a fucking mexican rob me and im a damn mexican myself. Sometimes i wish i could stick my hand in my monitor so i could pop up yours and slap some sense into people like yall.

Explain how 5 white men beat 1 mexican to death and only get 6 month in jail.

In this case, if Caucasian tryed to rob me, ill knock him out unconscious then ill grab my shot gun and blow his head right off. Or Ill pull out a knife and cut his head off. How does that sound?

If he was trying to rob you, then who cares. And if the mexican that was beat to death was illegally here, then the sentence makes sense to me.

[BanginJimmy]

If he was trying to rob you, then who cares. And if the mexican that was beat to death was illegally here, then the sentence makes sense to me.

reps

[gerardojdm]

If he was trying to rob you, then who cares. And if the mexican that was beat to death was illegally here, then the sentence makes sense to me.

you really got ball behind your computer you fucking asshole..

[gerardojdm]

reps

you make the perfect punching bag for me and all mexican you waste of sperm

[Jiggity96]

race is not the issue at all it was only made the issue by the media how many other cases of black people shooting black people white people shooting white people or mexicans shooting mexicans do you think there were is southern california alone last month? i dont have the numbers but im sure at least one for each scenario 6 bullets is excessive but as it has been for the last i dunno million years the phrase "survival of the fittest" comes into play and the robbers along with the clerk had all intentions of shoot to kill and there can be only one victor and as for the familys comments good people do bad things and nobodies mother is going to say "yeah my son was a thug ass piece shit who i completely failed at raising" shortly after his death on national tv

[The Creeper]

you really got ball behind your computer you fucking asshole..

I would say this to anyone, to their face. Why should illegals be treated to our constitution and Laws that we pay taxes to uphold? Do I think beating some random illegal to death is wrong, morally yes, should that case be treated like any other, no.

I still stand behind the pharmacist too, regardless if the guy was a threat at the time he unloaded the clip into him.

[The Creeper]

reps

I am glad someone out there respects the fact that we pay taxes and illegals don't. Of course, most of your posts I see I agree with, so reps back to you sir.

[BanginJimmy]

I am glad someone out there respects the fact that we pay taxes and illegals don't. Of course, most of your posts I see I agree with, so reps back to you sir.

Has nothing to do with illegals. If someone tries to rob, you and you get the upper hand, I agree with dispensing the maximum amount of pain and suffering, including death, that you would like.

[The Creeper]

Has nothing to do with illegals. If someone tries to rob, you and you get the upper hand, I agree with dispensing the maximum amount of pain and suffering, including death, that you would like.

Yea it is a good way of cleansing society.