McCain vs Obama on healthcare

[4dmin]

below is a 3rd party critique on both plans:

Senator John McCain's (R-AZ) health plan would eliminate the current tax exclusion of employer payments for health coverage, replace the exclusion with a refundable tax credit for those who purchase coverage, and encourage Americans to move to a national market for nongroup insurance. Middle-range estimates suggest that initially this change will have little impact on the number of uninsured people, although within five years this number will likely grow as the value of the tax credit falls relative to rising health care costs. Moving toward a relatively unregulated nongroup market will tend to raise costs, reduce the generosity of benefits, and leave people with fewer consumer protections. [Health Affairs 27, no. 6 (2008): w472-w481 (published online 16 September 2008; 10.1377/ hlthaff.27.6.w472)]

The health reform plan put forth by Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) focuses on expanding insurance coverage and provides new subsidies to individuals, small businesses, and businesses experiencing catastrophic expenses. It greatly increases the federal regulation of private insurance but does not address the core economic incentives that drive health care spending. This omission along with the very substantial short-term savings claimed raise serious questions about its fiscal sustainability. Heavy regulation coupled with a fallback National Health Plan and a play-or-pay financing choice also raise questions about the future of the employer insurance market. [Health Affairs 27, no. 6 (2008): w462-w471 (published online 16 September 2008; 10.1377/hlthaff.27.6.w462)]

discuss.

[Alan®]

[QUOTE=admin]below is a 3rd party critique on both plans:

The health reform plan put forth by Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) focuses on expanding insurance coverage and provides new subsidies to individuals, small businesses, and businesses experiencing catastrophic expenses. It greatly increases the federal regulation of private insurance but does not address the core economic incentives that drive health care spending. This omission along with the very substantial short-term savings claimed raise serious questions about its fiscal sustainability. Heavy regulation coupled with a fallback National Health Plan and a play-or-pay financing choice also raise questions about the future of the employer insurance market. [Health Affairs 27, no. 6 (2008): w462-w471 (published online 16 September 2008; 10.1377/hlthaff.27.6.w462)]




discuss.

See this is why Obama's health care plan along with a few other things, has never maid sense to me. He wants to raise taxes on the top 5% yet he wants to subsidize health care for small business owners when essentially that's who he is talking about? It's like he's talking out of both sides of his neck.

[JConner]

All I can say is that I feel bad for my friends that are paying $$$$$$ to attend medical school right now. Once healthcare is socialized (which will happen sooner or later with the democrats taking over) doctors will make no good money at all. The democrats do not realize that if you let the private sector take over healthcare the cost will decrease dramatically because of competition! If the government provides healthcare to everyone the cost of healthcare will only rise. People from Canada that have money make trips to the U.S. to get procedures done and are willing to pay for it because in Canada you have to wait 3 years to get damn stitches! Voters need to look at Canada's healthcare system before voting for someone who wants to socialize healthcare.


My stepfather was a pathologist and owned Alcovy Pathology which operated at Newton General Hospital for 20 years and he is now an executive at a private hospital. He said that if he were my age and trying to decide on a career path that he would not chose anything to do with being a physician because you will be working for the government very soon.

[4dmin]

All I can say is that I feel bad for my friends that are paying $$$$$$ to attend medical school right now. Once healthcare is socialized (which will happen sooner or later with the democrats taking over) doctors will make no good money at all. The democrats do not realize that if you let the private sector take over healthcare the cost will decrease dramatically because of competition! If the government provides healthcare to everyone the cost of healthcare will only rise. People from Canada that have money make trips to the U.S. to get procedures done and are willing to pay for it because in Canada you have to wait 3 years to get damn stitches! Voters need to look at Canada's healthcare system before voting for someone who wants to socialize healthcare.


My stepfather was a pathologist and owned Alcovy Pathology which operated at Newton General Hospital for 20 years and he is now an executive at a private hospital. He said that if he were my age and trying to decide on a career path that he would not chose anything to do with being a physician because you will be working for the government very soon.

you are gravely incorrect. doctors will not make any less than they do down. actually they may make more money. the problem w/ the healthcare system is that it is broken. my wife is a Doctor of Pharmacy and i spent 6 years working for one of the largest TPAs in the US. as Jimmy stated - tons of people dont' pay so they roll the cost into other areas 7$ a pill for something that cost .50. this is also why man doctors of all professions have moved to not dealing w/ health insurance companies and putting that burden back on the consumer.

if more people have affordable healthcare that means more money for those who provide care. why do you think places like grady can barely make it?

you are also don't understand what socialized medicine is. he isn't proposing giving over healthcare to the gov't - he is trying to give affordable healthcare to those who dont' have it; especially children. why shouldn't you or I be able to have access to the same healthcare tax payers pay for washington to have? the plan is basically like creating group benefits plan under gov buying power. making it available and affordable for americans who can't get healthcare from their employers.

healthcare is all about buying power - claim history. that is why larger companies have better benefits.

[Vteckidd]

newsflash if you want healthcare you can get it you just have to pay for it. Why should the government make it free? That's retarded.

In that sense mccain plan is better in that he wants you to go out and get tour own plan that fits you and he wants you to have the flexibility to choose what and who you want as a doctor.

Why should the govt decide for you?

Again if you don't get it I can't help you

[JConner]

newsflash if you want healthcare you can get it you just have to pay for it. Why should the government make it free? That's retarded.

In that sense mccain plan is better in that he wants you to go out and get tour own plan that fits you and he wants you to have the flexibility to choose what and who you want as a doctor.

Why should the govt decide for you?

Again if you don't get it I can't help you

good post!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mr. KiDD again.

[tony]

newsflash if you want healthcare you can get it you just have to pay for it. Why should the government make it free? That's retarded.

That logic is simply amazing to me. No disrespect to you Mike cause I once had the mentality you do, but that is the 'im not rich but i plan to be so I'm going to act like I'm rich now' mentality.

Healthcare is not a product you buy off of the shelf, it is not optional.. it is a necessity to society. There is zero room for haves and have nots as it pertains to healthcare.. everyone should have a right to it whether they can afford it or not.

As a potential business owner I would think you'd be for Universal healthcare, the aspiring entrepreneur who has two kids and cannot leave their job because they need health coverage should absolutely embrace a Universal System. It is for the betterment of society in so many ways. I guarantee you would see a lot more entrepreneurshipand innovation if there was a universal system, and the country would be better for it.

[BanginJimmy]

Healthcare is not a product you buy off of the shelf, it is not optional.. it is a necessity to society. There is zero room for haves and have nots as it pertains to healthcare.. everyone should have a right to it whether they can afford it or not.

This same thing could be said of the banking and energy industries. Do you believe the govt should put its hand even deepeer into those industries?

[tony]

This same thing could be said of the banking and energy industries. Do you believe the govt should put its hand even deepeer into those industries?

Banking, no. Economically energy being unregulated isn't necessarily beneficial to the people. Competition doesn't make the delivery of energy any more efficient than say.. an Oligopoly.

[BanginJimmy]

Banking, no.

So much of our lives are tied to banking and credit that they are requirements. You can barely get auto insurance without at elast average credit. You cannot get utilities in the apartment you cant qualify for without credit.

Economically energy being unregulated isn't necessarily beneficial to the people. Competition doesn't make the delivery of energy any more efficient than say.. an Oligopoly.

I dont know about this. I am saving more a 5 cents a therm for NG for the next 12 months because of competition between private corporations. I filled up my gas tank for 4 cents a gallon cheaper, less than 500 yards further down the road because of competition.

Regulation is a bit different though. There HAS to be some types of regulation on ANY publically traded corporation. That regulation should also stop at the shareholders.

[Vteckidd]

That logic is simply amazing to me. No disrespect to you Mike cause I once had the mentality you do, but that is the 'im not rich but i plan to be so I'm going to act like I'm rich now' mentality.

Healthcare is not a product you buy off of the shelf, it is not optional.. it is a necessity to society. There is zero room for haves and have nots as it pertains to healthcare.. everyone should have a right to it whether they can afford it or not.

As a potential business owner I would think you'd be for Universal healthcare, the aspiring entrepreneur who has two kids and cannot leave their job because they need health coverage should absolutely embrace a Universal System. It is for the betterment of society in so many ways. I guarantee you would see a lot more entrepreneurshipand innovation if there was a universal system, and the country would be better for it.

I PAY for my healthcare, it costs me a whopping $177 a month. WOW. When i worked for Mainstream and Batlground, 2 PRIVATELY OWNED BUSINESSES, i never had healthcare, it was too expensive for them to offer it.

But i dont think they should be REQUIRED TO OFFER IT. I merely just had to pay for it, out of my pocket.

Requiring people to provide or pay for healthare (which you can spin it ll you want that is what Obama and Hillary both wanted) will just add COST and EXPENSES to the small business owner, couple that with Obamas increase in taxes, and yeah, watch jobs dry up.

So whats next Tony, Govt funded Auto Insurance? Govt Funded Housing Insurance? Govt Funded Renters Insurance?

Healthcare is a neccisity, and something needs to be done about it, but Government run Healthcare is RETARDED. Since when has the Govt run a business succesfully?

[Alan®]

I PAY for my healthcare, it costs me a whopping $177 a month. WOW. When i worked for Mainstream and Batlground, 2 PRIVATELY OWNED BUSINESSES, i never had healthcare, it was too expensive for them to offer it.

But i dont think they should be REQUIRED TO OFFER IT. I merely just had to pay for it, out of my pocket.

Requiring people to provide or pay for healthare (which you can spin it ll you want that is what Obama and Hillary both wanted) will just add COST and EXPENSES to the small business owner, couple that with Obamas increase in taxes, and yeah, watch jobs dry up.

So whats next Tony, Govt funded Auto Insurance? Govt Funded Housing Insurance? Govt Funded Renters Insurance?

Healthcare is a neccisity, and something needs to be done about it, but Government run Healthcare is RETARDED. Since when has the Govt run a business succesfully?

404 Successful Govt. business not found

[tony]

404 Successful Govt. business not found

You know.. maybe you're right.

Lets privatize police protection, if you havent paid your bill and your house gets robbed.. oh well, you should've been able to pay your premium.

Or maybe, education. Oh, not current on your education coverage? Sorry, your child will have to make due with their 2nd grade reading level.

Securities and Exchange Commission, the Department of Defense, USDA, Veterans Affairs, DEA, FBI and the list goes on.

Granted these programs arent the most efficient but they meet the needs of the people and that is all that is required of them.

[man]

That logic is simply amazing to me. No disrespect to you Mike cause I once had the mentality you do, but that is the 'im not rich but i plan to be so I'm going to act like I'm rich now' mentality.

No it's called the "I'd rather work hard than get handouts because I want what's best for the country" mentality... lol Or the "I'm not a selfish little baby" mentality...

[BanginJimmy]

Neither plan will work as they dont address the reasons that health care is getting so expensive.

Indigent care is driving up the costs to hospitals and therefore to individuals and insurance companies. Anyone that has been in an emergency room in the last couple years knows what I am talking about. It is filled with people that do not have an emergency. They use the emergency room as a regular doctor. This also causes the level of care to go down as docs dont take people seriously unless the reasons for being there are completely obvious.

[.::UNKNOWN::.]

Neither plan will work as they dont address the reasons that health care is getting so expensive.

Indigent care is driving up the costs to hospitals and therefore to individuals and insurance companies. Anyone that has been in an emergency room in the last couple years knows what I am talking about. It is filled with people that do not have an emergency. They use the emergency room as a regular doctor. This also causes the level of care to go down as docs dont take people seriously unless the reasons for being there are completely obvious.

hell not only that people that get sue happy does not help any either.... malpractice insurance is through the roof and a doctor has to have it to practice.... the best example i seen was when i was in florida on the news some lady went to some 3rd world country to have plastic surgery done bc it was cheaper... she got some excess skin removed on her arms and legs... she developed gang green in 1 arm and both legs and went to the emergency room... the doctors spent hours trying to save her arm and legs and it finally came to the option while she was on the operating table to amputate of let her die.... they amputated her limbs affected.... she sues them for 30 million dollars for not doin every thing they could.... it was classic bc the doctor said if her could forsee the future he would have let her stupid ass die....

[stephen]

obama's plan seems more beneficial to us considering the current cost of living, and it also has a point to address the rising cost issue.

Senator John McCain's (R-AZ) health plan would eliminate the current tax exclusion of employer payments for health coverage, replace the exclusion with a refundable tax credit for those who purchase coverage, and encourage Americans to move to a national market for nongroup insurance. Middle-range estimates suggest that initially this change will have little impact on the number of uninsured people, although within five years this number will likely grow as the value of the tax credit falls relative to rising health care costs. Moving toward a relatively unregulated nongroup market will tend to raise costs, reduce the generosity of benefits, and leave people with fewer consumer protections. [Health Affairs 27, no. 6 (2008): w472-w481 (published online 16 September 2008; 10.1377/ hlthaff.27.6.w472)

if employers lose their tax credits, naturally, they'll stop offering healthcare options, forcing people to go out and purchase their own healthcare (it'd become more expensive for companies to offer it). if any of you have had to go purchase COBRA health insurance, then you know how bad this can get. also...there's another key word in there that we should all fear given the most recent events in our economy...UNREGULATED. we've seen what unregulation gets us...dot com bubble...subprime lending...$700B bail-out. the issue with the current healthcare regulations is that they need to be revised, not removed. when it's already difficult to find/keep a job, afford fuel and homes, why create another expensive necessity? not to mention, george bush has already attempted something like this, just not to this extreme, HSA. HSA is actually pretty good (i had one with my last job), but if jobs won't offer insurance, or rates go up, then it's practically useless.

The health reform plan put forth by Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) focuses on expanding insurance coverage and provides new subsidies to individuals, small businesses, and businesses experiencing catastrophic expenses. It greatly increases the federal regulation of private insurance but does not address the core economic incentives that drive health care spending. This omission along with the very substantial short-term savings claimed raise serious questions about its fiscal sustainability. Heavy regulation coupled with a fallback National Health Plan and a play-or-pay financing choice also raise questions about the future of the employer insurance market. [Health Affairs 27, no. 6 (2008): w462-w471 (published online 16 September 2008; 10.1377/hlthaff.27.6.w462)

NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE EXCHANGE....NOT FREE HEALTHCARE. here...i'll give 2 links. one link with be FOR this plan, and the other AGAINST the plan. both have good info. atleast some of you will KNOW what you're arguing against...geez. he does have a point in his policy to limit malpractice insurance, which is one way to address the rising cost issue.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Healthcare/wm1230.cfm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politic...terstitialskip

[BanginJimmy]

I agree that malpractice is an issue, but its really does pale in comparison to indigent care.

When someone with no insurance, or money, comes into the energency room with a belly ache the hospital still has to pay the docs working the emergency room even though they dont get paid. To offset those costs they raise the price on everything else, $7.00 per pill asperin etc. In turn, health insurance rates and co-pays go up to offset the costs to the insurance companies.

[BanginJimmy]

The problem with Obama's plan is that it doesnt fix anything. It just adds another mismanaged govt program to my tax bill. Look at the plan that senators have, if you cant afford personal major medical, you cant afford that plan. That is, unless the govt subsidises it. That plan would cost a family of 4 (mom, dad, 2 brats) around 2k a month. A major medical plan for the same family would cost less than half of that on the open market.

http://www.ncpa.org/~ncpa/health/pdh5.html

One estimate states that fraud and abuse cost Medicare and Medicaid about $33 billion each year

Like I asid before. Add another 45 million people under the same types of regulation and you will see that number top 100B YEARLY.

[tony]

By the way, healthcare.. social securty.. education.. "We're spending too much, its too expensive!"

Government bailout, War, stock market crash "Bring in the money"

If an individual sees no problem in that, you need your right to vote revoked.

[Alan®]

By the way, healthcare.. social securty.. education.. "We're spending too much, its too expensive!"

Government bailout, War, stock market crash "Bring in the money"

If an individual sees no problem in that, you need your right to vote revoked.

I'm convinced social security won't be around for my generation.

Healthcare-I gotta agree with mike

Education-I think it needs to be reformed. It's not what we are spending it's what we are getting for what we are spending

Bailout-I still don't agree with it

Stock Market-We needed to do somethig but the longer we put off letting the economy take its n atural course the worse it will get

War-Ehh. It's too late. What's done is done. We need to finish the job and be done.