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Thread: KEEP IT SIMPLE, Vteckidds Guide to NA

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    Gods Chariot Vteckidd's Avatar
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    Default KEEP IT SIMPLE, Vteckidds Guide to NA

    I keep seeing these posts about these crazy setups that dont make any power, or people using these crazy JDM parts but dont make any power, and so on. Since I have owned some NA motors, built by me and built by others, i thought id share my .02.

    My Resume:
    187whp OEM built GSR
    237whp LSVTEC

    Now, where to start. Well ill start wit hyou guys with STOCK bottom ends. There is hope for you. You dont need to spend crazy money on big name parts to get power.

    First, pick a REALISTIC GOAL. What is your purpose for building? what is your BUDGET? how much time are you willing to take?


    On stock GSRs, 180whp is attainable with the right parts. I reccomend:
    Camshafts:
    ITR Cams
    -Be carefull about where you buy them as people claim STOCK GSR/B16 cams as ITR all the time. make sure you know what your buying, or buy them new.

    Skunk2 PRO1 Cams
    -Probably the BEST on the market. Great Midrange power, awesome topend power. VERY Affodable.

    Buddy Club 3+
    -Good cams, not bad power. Soft midrange, but decent top end. Would rather have PRO1s

    Jun3
    -Good cams, outdated profile, but proven. Too much money, PRO1s will make more power

    VALVETRAIN
    ValveSPrings and Retainers
    For MOST applications you can use Rocket Motorsports, OmniPower, Skunk2, Buddy CLub, TOda, etc.

    Rocket Motorsports Valvetrain: Kteller.com
    Skunk2 Pro Series Valvetrain: Nopi or Skunk2.com
    Omnipower: Kteller.com or Omnipowerusa.com
    Buddy CLub : Kteller.com

    If you use the BIGGER CAMS on the market (Skunk2 PRO2s, BC 4 or BC 5s) you need to use the Skunk2 PRO series valvesprings an retainers. Heres why:
    Their are certain characteristics to valvetrain that you need to be aware of when selecting your camshaft. High lift and duration camshafts have a great effect of causing coilbind. If you run WEAKER Springs rates with big cams, the springs will coilbind (touch) and cause you to drop a valve, smash valve stem seals, or cause upward force on the rocker arm pad which will wear out costly Honda rocker arms and your camshafts.

    Contrary to what people say, Titanium retainers are PERFECTLY FINE. i have used ROcket Motorsports, Omni power, SKunk2 numerous times over the last 4 years with NO ISSUES. as long as they are installed correctly, valve adjustments done when neccesary, and cams an head are inspected occasionally, youll have no problems. dont be scared to run them.

    VALVES:
    Many people overlook valves. You definetly should NOT. If your spending $500 on cams and $300 on valvetrain, why are you going to trust 5-15 year old stock valves? FOr mild setups its ok. but once you switch to bigger cams, bigger springs and ret, its time to start looking at valves.

    Ferrea Valves
    Best in the business IMHO. Stainless steel, EXCELLENT quality, awesome price. you can get them if you look hard enough for $11 a piece, sometimes cheaper. They are excellent in terms of resistance to heat, detonation and breaking. WHat i always like about Ferreas is that 9/10 times if you get contact from them to a piston , they BEND, not BREAK. CHeaper valves break an shatter an usually take a piston or sleeve with them. Ferreas tend not to.

    Omnipower Valves
    Great flow characteristics, great price, shatter like glass LOL. These are REALLY good valves, but your giving up some things when you run them. THe omnis are a 2 piece design and made of a metal that likes to shatter. If you ever overrev or get conatc, they will shatter the face of the valve off and take your bottom end with them. Not a bad valve but be carefull .

    Skunk2 Valves
    Like Omnis, great valve, but can break if they encounter contact.

    Supertech Valves
    Very good company, very good product. Highly reccomend.

    REV Valves
    Very good company, very good product, have used, and would use again

    OVERSIZE VALVES:
    Unless your shooting for 260-300whp, KEEP STOCK VALVES. Running oversized valves just creates clearance problems and issues . YOu have to remember that in an NA motor, your running bigger cams, higher piston domes, and that means stuff operates VERY close to each other. Run an oversize valve, and your asking for valve to valve or valve to piston issues.

    Header:
    DC JDM 4-1 with 2.5in collector
    -the MINIMUM you should be running. Tried an true, it can be found for as cheap as $200.

    Replica Headers (can be found on ebay or Honda-tech. I recommend the RMF Narrow Replica 4-1
    -Most power for the buck

    SMSP
    -Been around a LONG TIME, QUality is second to none, still hard to get ahold of as waits can last 4-6 weeks and longer. $650+


    HEAD PORTING

    This is probably the aspect of NA that gets overlooked or overtalked about. everyone is quick to throw around the words Port and Polish without really knowing what it means.

    It is my PERSONAL experience that Stock Honda heads can support 185-190whp before they hit a wall flow wise. I have buillt and dynoed OEM motors with stock heads (port and chamber wise) that have made 185whp. Now, heres my guidlines for porting a head:

    1) What year an what mileage is your cylinder head? if its a 14 year old B16 OBD0 head, you probably would be wise to invest in a 3 angle valve job and replace the valves. It would probably be wise to get all the guides checked as well.

    2) POrting as i said is not really neccesary on a stock bottom end. WHat will make a BIG Difference however is a VALVE JOB. Youd be suprised the amount of power you can pick up with a proper valve job.

    3) If you insist on having your head ported, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE leave it to a professional. Some places i reccomend are:
    DFE ENterprises
    Scots Machine Shop
    Ball ENgine and Machine
    Mainstream Performance
    RLZ Engineering
    Portflow

    BOTTOM END WORK

    Now if you decide that you want to swap pistons out, here is what i reccomend.

    PISTONS
    If its a stock OEM piston you want to use, then i would reccomend the PR3 Piston from the B16 in a 1.8L motor. This piston in a GSR/LS block gives a nice moderate compression of around 11.5:1. Great for pump gas, street setups. Not alot of money to buy them.
    If you have a B16, your handicapped as any other B series OEM pistons will yield LESS than stock compression (with the exception of the CTR Piston)

    Highest compression is not the best. Stay away from CTR pistons in 1.8l blocks as you will have an astronomicaly high comp ratio and makes for a very inefficient motor.

    Ill reccomend a CTR Piston only in a B16 engine where you really have no other choice when it comes to an OEM piston.

    FORGED PISTONS
    If you decide to go with a forged piston, Youve chosen a path with many options. This is the time to figure out what is the goal with your motor, do you plan to spray on it at anytime? what is a realistic HP goal, what cams will you be running, etc.

    CP Pistons:
    I love them, i ran them in my 2.0l LSVTEC motor , never had a problem out of them. Great design, great price, GREAT RINGS.

    JE Pistons:
    Good pistons, HATE their rings. JE has low tension oil control rings which are prone to making your motor smoke like a chimney. I would buy their pistons, but use CP RINGS.

    Wiseco Pistons:
    Great company, great product, built a few motors with their pistons , very similar to CP.


    RODS

    Sp you chose to stay with factory ROds. Good for you, they are pretty strong.
    GSR RODS
    ARP Rod bolts are your friend. when building an OEM motor, be sure to spend the $50 to pick up a set. GSR rods with ARP bolts can withstand 9500rpm pulls pretty regularly.

    LS/B20 RODS
    The weakest of the B series rods, they have smaller rod bolts and wider bearings. Not good for high revs. If you have to stick with these, i would strongly reccomend ARP fasteners, and balancing. DO NOT SHOTPEEN. I would also get them cryo treated for added insurance, Pro-cryo.com does cryo by the pound, so its inexpensive for added security.

    B16 RODS
    THe old faithfull rods. Can be revved to 9000+rpms stock. Short stroke, well rounded motor. Id still use ARP fasteners, but they can last awhile at the high revs.

    FORGED RODS

    When using FORGED PISTONS, purchase FORGED rods. Its almost too easy to get rods nowadays due to their price an abundance.

    Eagle:
    Tried an true, cheap, can be found for under $300. Bullet proof, GET THE BIG BOLTS ARP2000 style. I revved mine to 9800rpms with no problems. A little on the heavy side, but will suffice.

    Carrillo:
    so you stepped up to the big plate big baller. these rods are lighter, stronger, custom made. you are the NA king, but it costs $800-1200 for rods now

    Cunningham:
    so you stepped up to the big plate big baller. these rods are lighter, stronger, custom made. you are the NA king, but it costs $800-1200 for rods now
    CRANKSHAFTS
    Stock is best. I see people "knife-edging" and doing all sorts of crazy shit. Its NOT NEEDED. I made 237whp with a STOCK OFF THE SHELF unworked LS crank. I reccomend that you balance and chamfer your crank, but otherwise leave it UNTOUCHED. there is no need to knife-edge or cut down a crank. your playing with a major engine compenent that was well thought of from the factory.
    STROKER KITS

    Stroker kits , BAD NEWS. Stroker kits lessen the life of a motor drastically. Stroker kits were never designed to be bolt in affairs even though they claim to be. To really utilize a stroker kits potential, you need to figure out the ride size rod and right piston pin height along with deck height an compression. You also need to know what R/S ratio you are running to determine where the motor can rev to. They can work if BUILT and USED professionally, but thats almost never the case. Stroker cranks change the geometry of the motor, so you need to compensate for that.

    If you want discplacement, get it from the BORE.

    BORE:
    Boreing a motor is the safest way to get more power and discplacement. You can keep factory honda geometry of the rods, crank and get more liters by boring a motor out.

    Stock honda sleeves B16, LS, GSR can go up to .40/1mm over. Stock bore is 81mm. YOu cna go up to 82mm on a STREET motor.

    If you sleeve,
    84.5mm will make your 1.6L motor a 1.8L
    84.5mm will make your 1.8l motor a 2.0l

    Typically you bore when you get new pistons an ringsets. Most people will do a .10/.25mm or .20/.50mm over.



    VTECKIDD COOK BOOK
    Here are some engine combos that we have done an what power they have made, just to give you an idea what certain motors/parts can make.

    1) Username: Sticky
    Engine: GSR B18C1
    Block: OEM STOCK
    Head: OEM STOCK
    Camshafts: Integra Type-R
    Valvetrain: OEM Stock
    Header: Hytech/Rage header
    Intake manifold: Skunk2 Pro Series
    Throttle Body: 70mm Skunk2 Pro Series

    Engine Output: 179whp/125TQ

    2) Username: DA_UNKNOWN
    Engine: GSR B18C1
    Block: OEM ITR Pistons
    Head: Skunk2 Digital CNC Ported Head
    Camshafts: Skunk2 Pro1s
    Valvetrain: Skunk2 Pro Series Springs and Retainers/Skunk2 Valves
    Header: RMF Header
    Intake manifold: Skunk2 Pro Series
    Throttle Body: 70mm Skunk2 Pro Series

    Engine Output: 202whp/137TQ

    3) Username: Mr. Kidd
    Engine: LSVTEC sleeved 2.0L
    Block: CP Pistons, Eagle Rods
    Head: DFE Enterprises Street Ported Head
    Camshafts: Skunk2 Pro3s
    Valvetrain: Rocket Motorsports SLX Valvetrain/Ferrea Valves
    Header: RMF Header/Hytech/TDF
    Intake manifold: AEBS Lightly Ported by DFE Enterprises
    Throttle Body: 70mm Skunk2 Pro Series

    Engine Output: 237whp/159TQ

    4) Username: None
    Engine: H22
    Block: OEM STOCK
    Head: OEM STOCK
    Camshafts: Skunk2 Pro1s
    Valvetrain: Skunk2 Pro Series Springs and Retainers/Skunk2 Valves
    Header: RSR Header
    Intake manifold: OEM STOCK
    Throttle Body: OEM STOCK

    Engine Output: 192whp/146TQ
    Last edited by Vteckidd; 11-11-2011 at 08:53 AM.
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    ACC CHAMPS bigdare23's Avatar
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    damn, just leave a brother hanging!!! I'm trying to take notes here!

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    ME TOO!!

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    I've notice alot of tuners much rather build b and d series than the h series. Why is that? Dont get my wrong i LOVE any honda motor, but it seems b and d are more favorable.

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    ACC CHAMPS bigdare23's Avatar
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    it dont take that long to eat a meal!

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    LOL!!

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    Gods Chariot Vteckidd's Avatar
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    updated, ill add more later
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    WOW which bible is he reading??

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    Can I use this info 4 my H?

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    Proper valve job(not porting) will pick up power in a stock block?

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    Thank-you +1

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    NICE mike you should STIcky for future questions. (when ur done)

    and you took my cheap OEM build and laid it out , most of it LOL.
    cant forget tuning,
    nice bible, lol


    -Ernie

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    Gods Chariot Vteckidd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by omar
    Proper valve job(not porting) will pick up power in a stock block?
    yes. Most OEM bottom end builds dont have enough compression to push a good ported head. THats why a valve job will get you more power.

    Power is in the valve job. These theories and advice can be used with the H series as well. The H series are even more simple than B series. you can do stock Bottom ends with Cams, an a header an hit 200-210whp. Hell, Goinfasterthanu has a STOCK H22 with a DC Header that makes 193whp
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    Asian Persuasion KevinT707's Avatar
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    YEAH!

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    Gods Chariot Vteckidd's Avatar
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    while i appreciate your input kevin, i have not seen proof that those EBAY headers make the same power as the DC Header. The DC uses bigger primaries, most of the headers i have seen of yours or EBAY style arent quite the same.

    Im listing PROVEN name brand products, until i see a PROVEN ebay company, im leaving it out. You get what you pay for

    VALVETRAIN and VALVES added in the middle
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    great write up +1. mike i got a write up ive been compiling for about a week that im going to post later tonight but ill let you scope it out when i get it complete
    FUCK B&D COMMUNICATIONS!


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    kool
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    I hate drifting Big Baller's Avatar
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    I've looked at a lot of Honda heads while hanging out and various shops and the one thing that I've noticed about most of the heads that made good power is that they have had very little material actually removed. Somebody didn't just go in and go buck wild with a grinder.

    Its about quality not quantity.

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    the V8 man speaketh the trutheth
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Vteckidd
    If you sleeve,
    84.5mm will make your 1.6L motor a 1.8L
    84.5mm will make your 1.8L motor a 2.0L
    Is there a difference btwn L and l?


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    Gods Chariot Vteckidd's Avatar
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    yeah my lack of typing skills LOL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Vteckidd
    while i appreciate your input kevin, i have not seen proof that those EBAY headers make the same power as the DC Header. The DC uses bigger primaries, most of the headers i have seen of yours or EBAY style arent quite the same.

    Im listing PROVEN name brand products, until i see a PROVEN ebay company, im leaving it out. You get what you pay for
    I don't appreciate you editing the post that took me time to write to "YEAH!!". I actually put some good time in it, found the links + took me time to think & type. Only reason I even said it is because I've looked at the DC Sports 4-1 upclose & the primaries & design look exactly the same size to me. So why pay +$100 ?

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    cause real power costs money. This thread is too what MY opinion is, and what my experience is for. Im trying to help the NA crowd out, and in my experience, the EBAY headers arent as good as the DC. sorry.

    So i deleted that
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    Asian Persuasion KevinT707's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Vteckidd
    cause real power costs money. This thread is too what MY opinion is, and what my experience is for. Im trying to help the NA crowd out, and in my experience, the EBAY headers arent as good as the DC. sorry.

    So i deleted that
    What about my opinion ? *tear ..

    Nothing is wrong w/ low budget speed Ebay FTW!

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    Gear Second atlxkevinx's Avatar
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    Good write up! +1!
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    Vteckidd= Honda's advocate
    Thanks for the info

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    oh yeah vteckidd after our lil "talk" when I got that fender from ya, I got on my swap. Hopefully by the end of the year, i'll have a 'lil head bussa".

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    Move yuh blood claat! Ludester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by omar
    Can I use this info 4 my H?
    http://www.preludezone.com/showthread.php?t=267

    if you have any more questions just post them up on that forum and I'll gladly answer them for you...

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    I hate drifting Big Baller's Avatar
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    It looks like Steve Irwins Vtec Solenoid stuck open and now hes dead.

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    Move yuh blood claat! Ludester's Avatar
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    Mike I got a question for you since you seem to be Mr. B series... Isn't the Jdm header better than the DC? I could've sworn that the collector on the DC is roughly about 2". Isn't the Jdm collector 2.5"?

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    mike speaks the truth thanks mike i'll be giving u a call soon on a new project i got coming out +1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludester
    Mike I got a question for you since you seem to be Mr. B series... Isn't the Jdm header better than the DC? I could've sworn that the collector on the DC is roughly about 2". Isn't the Jdm collector 2.5"?
    Beleive it or not, the JDM Honda header is slightly worse than the DC header. Its made out of a thicker cast material and the primaries are as well designed.

    The DC JDM header has a 2.5in collector, thats the header i am talking about
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    Senior Member 99SI's Avatar
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    While I appreciate the time it took you to write this up, it would have been better spent putting my head on my block bitch! Good write up. Arp rod bolts, valve job ftw! Oh and when you are spinning really high rpms often and get around 25-30k miles out of it, replace your oil pump! That's another thing you may want to mention mike, always go ahead and do a type r oil pump, a new timing belt and water pump when you are going to be doing any type of performance build up that's more than a bolt on. Always best to have some added insurance.

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    Ill go ahead an install your Head on your block, you can do that without a headgasket right? EL OH EL
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    Senior Member 99SI's Avatar
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    Absolutely, just use plenty of hondabond and liquid gasket, it'll seal just like oem.

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    Thanks for the write-up bro!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by omar
    Thanks for the write-up bro!!
    no problem man...

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    Age
    41
    Posts
    2,677
    Rep Power
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    Default

    lol^^^

  39. #39
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    ATL
    Age
    42
    Posts
    654
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    LOL^^^ U know who da boss iz!

  40. #40
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    K-Town
    Age
    33
    Posts
    62
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    hey can you let me know how much it would cost to deck out a h22a engine so it can take a bullet

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