KEEP IT SIMPLE, Vteckidds Guide to NA

[Vteckidd]

how do you know that you only going to get 3-4 horse from running the lighter rods? if i am building an all motor car, i will spend that money to get that 3-4hp.

Because i know what im talking about. My engine builder tested TI rods for Omniman, and has done a ton of work with aluminum rods, A beams, H Beams, I Beams, etc.

If you were to take a motor making 240whp with EAGLE RODS ($300) and were to do nothing except CHANGE the rods out to TITANIUM ($1500 rods) the only gain you would see is from about 8500+ and it would be 3-5whp.

I dont know how to say this any simpler, but this thread is about KEEPING IT SIMPLE. That means most bang for the buck. If you can justify to a street car to buy rods that cost $1500 for 3-5whp of PEAK POWER, and also sacrificing reliability, then go for it. I wont.

increasing compression is only ne benefit of welding the combustion chamber. you will reduce significant piston weight from running a shorter dome. i am pretty sure you will free up significant amount of horse power to the wheel when the weight saving are combined with with a lighten crank, lighter rods, lighten flywheel, lighten wheels, 3 pucks clutch disc (more chatter but lighter than 6 or 4 pucks), behive spring (use a smaller retainer), narrow skirt pistons. you will have a better quench pad surface too which you can add a little more timing to pick up a little more power.

Show me results from lighter pistons vs off the shelf CP pistons. Show me results from knife edged cranks vs stock. Heavy rods vs light. etc.

The WHOLE POINT IF THIS THREAD is about KEEPING IT SIMPLE. Using off the shelf parts to make good RELIABLE power.

95% of all engine builds out there are fine with EAGLE Rods
95% of all engine builds out there are fine with off the shelf pistons

Most of these guys are on BUDGETS, they dont have $10,000 to spend on an NA Engine. most people have $2000-3000 tops.

Again you are trying to compare some all out race engine to a STREET ENGINE.

you are right. this thread is about keeping it simple. get everything done while the motor is out. spend a little extra money and have all the good bottom end and head mods. basically anything that require pulling the motor should be done ahead of time. this is important when you are paying someone to do the work for you because the money you pay for multiple shop visits can be use to buy the parts you needed to begin with. the complication is having to go back and explaining to your homeboy why you got dusted.

The methods you are recommending cost a ton more money with little better results. If they follow my methods they will made good power, be reliable, and if "they get dusted by their homeboy" so be it. Theres always someone faster.

You talk like 200-220whp isnt a lot. I cant name 1 person that has cracked 220whp with a B Series in the last 2 years NA. Where are all your builds that make tons of power?

My 200whp 1.8L CRX LOST to guys making 210-220whp out of 2.0 K Series or 2.2l H Series, and it didnt lose by much. It was a simple setup in a nice car.

vteckidd. i know you are the all motor expert. i know you know a lot about all motor setups. tell these forks on here the truth and not what they want to hear. 200hp is not enough to hang anymore. tell them they need to spend money to go fast. tell them this is 2010 and there are only 5 b series in the 300hp range because they only want to spend money on some off the shelf pistons and eagle rods.

The truth is more people have fun with a well rounded setup, than spending tons of money on parts that dont matter. That was the WHOLE POINT of this thread. Telling people you dont have to spend the most money, or buy the most trick parts, etc. Its about choosing the RIGHT parts.

If someone wants to try an build some crazy 300whp engine then obviously they arent on this site looking at this thread for advice.

200whp IS ENOUGH nowadays. Its perfectly fine. You arent going to beat 400-500whp cars, but if you are NA you already know that. Out of the 20 cars that dynoed at mainstreams dyno day yesterday, 1 cracked 200whp, there was about 10 in the 190whp range.

That says something.

Tbone on Honda-tech TRIED to build a 300whp NA B Series engine with about $20,000 he made 276whp. That was dry sumped, $1500 rods, $1000 custom pistons, Custom Cams, $2000 head work, $2500 ITBs, tons more trick stuff. I dont know about you, but who on here has that kind of money?

[Vteckidd]

260hp. now that is not bad on pump gas for all motor. will we see some e85 or race gas with a little more timing to see if you will be the 6th person with 300hp all motor?

This isnt the Turbo Forum , E85 doesnt add HP like that lol Neither does Race Gas.

i am running a turbo because i think anything less than 500hp is a little boring. heck, i was told that you need 600hp on the street to be cool but that is a whole different discussion.

want to know the difference between a 400whp street car FWD and a 600whp street car FWD? nothing, they both have zero traction.

THIS IS THE NA FORUM, have you EVER built and NA Honda Engine ?

btw. there is a lot of e85 station around here now. has anyone try it on an all motor build on ia. this can be a simple and relatively cheap mod. you can definitely turn the timing up with e85.

You can tune an NA Engine on 93octance very efficiently without the need for race gas.

Again, most street cars run 11-12:1 compression which is fine with 93 octane. Simple switching to race gas and adding timing isnt going to get you power, if it does its VERY little.

The only way you use RACE GAS is if you run a 13=15:1 motor, in that instance your engine NEEDS higher octane for a more efficient burn. But at that compression you arent a street car anymore.

[Vteckidd]

The one thing i DESPISE the most is people giving out bad information. Dont mean to jump on you but you are posting some stuff thats very wrong

[all-mota]

itb

[slowdsm]

na car is only fast in a light weight shell. most turbo honda are slow because they run a turbo that is too laggy. unless you running around with a gutted crx or eg civic, good luck winning.

my friend and i built a b18b 6 years ago. it has .040" over topline gsr pistons. he grinded some material off the bottom of pistons and zero out the weight with a scale.
he also grinded about 2lb off the crank, rods and stock pistons. the whole assemble are balanced afterward at advance machine shop. the head was decked to the service limit mark (about .024"). the block was .018". we got the head welded at a metal fabrication place in hiram, georgia. home ported head. i ported the roof of intake and exhaust port and smooth out the short radius. fidanza aluminum flywheel with some weight machined and drilled out. this included some weight drilled out off the friction surface of the flywheel. 3 pucks ceramic clutch disc made by clutch specialty in marietta for 75 bucks with stock pressure plate. crower cams, valve springs, and retainers. home made 4-1header . safc. dsm 380cc injectors (non turbo 4g63). lighten stock cam gears by drilling some weight off the spokes. hacked and ported stock intake. short ram intake. vp 100 octane. 8 degree advance with the distributor. 265psi compression reading on a mac tool compression tester. we were hoping for 285psi but bs topline rings gap were bigger than we like. the motor had about 15% leak down because of this. he got 215hp on a dynojet with civic si rims and 200hp with konig 17in rims. not too bad for a poor man all motor b series. it was in an integra so it was slow as hell. best 1/8 mile was 8.6s.

[slowdsm]

what you don't realize is a 220whp plus na car will outrun turbo setups making 350whp because of a better power band and more traction. also 220whp plus cars normally run in the high 11 to low 12 second range at the track and i can't count how many times i've seen the turbo guys like you are talking about come no where close to those times.

a good example is my buddies crx it makes around the 230whp range maybe slightly more and runs 11.60's all day long other friend has a integra that makes well over 400whp and runs high tens and there is half a second between both of their times..

and for you to say that ones not as fun to drive as the other you obviously haven't drove both, and if you did the na car you drove couldn't have made anywhere near 200whp because in a light honda thats fun to drive. that is unless your idea of fun is spinning all the time

you need to pull out he first fast and furious movie and watch the part after dom smoke brian. listen to what he said about winning.

[slowdsm]

The one thing i DESPISE the most is people giving out bad information. Dont mean to jump on you but you are posting some stuff thats very wrong

how am i wrong for telling forks to open their wallet alittle wider? you said it yourself that running lighter components make power. you want me to provide informations regarding horse power gain from running a lighter pistons which i don't have. what make you think you are going to gain hp from lighten rods and not lighten pistons. na setup is all about bragging how much power you can squeeze out of an anemic motor. 3-5hp here and there add up. saying that you should not waste money on titanium rods is like saying you should not waste your money on going na. for 1500-3000 bux, you can get way more hp. na is what people want. why not encourage them to spend extra money to get more power?

[all-mota]

ftl

[slowdsm]

all-mota. i forgot to response to your comparison between your friends' crx and integra. that is a nonsense comparison because one car is quit a bit heavy than the other. put that turbo engine into the crx and we can call it a comparison.


i want to thank vteckidd for disclosing some of the parts that na guys should use in their build. i have talked to a lot of na guys that don't even know that those components existed. sad! vteckidd. can you post in another thread an official parts list and mods for hardcore na guys who do not car about spending money. tell us what it will takes to make 300hp or very close to it.

[SPOOLIN]

aluminum rods are better than Ti rods any day of the week.

to make 300 is takes k series plain and simple. (insert your internals here)

[Vteckidd]

. can you post in another thread an official parts list and mods for hardcore na guys who do not car about spending money. tell us what it will takes to make 300hp or very close to it.

I wouldnt run a B Series, id run an H22 or a K24 way more cost effective.

As the WHP goes up , the longevity of the motor goes down drastically. Its pretty common for K24 medium street motors to make 290-300whp. H22s can make 250-260 pretty easily

B series if you are making over 260-270 its pretty much an all out race motor.

I cant really name the parts because they are usually all CUSTOM one off parts. theres only about 5 people in the WORLD who ever made over 300WHP NA with a B Series and most of them are race teams.

Skunk2
Eriks Racing

Those are the only 2 i can remember off the top of my head. Almost everyone runs K series now, B series is dead if you want to be competitive NA.

[Vteckidd]

also remember this thread is damn near 4 years old, a lot has changed in 4 years i prob could update this

[DustnU]

Lets see an update then!! I wanna build my Ls/V or swap the block for a B20 and put my ITR head on it. This thread is very helpfull but if you have better stuff lets hear it.

[SPOOLIN]

B series is still king in the forced induction world, but you aint got anything if you have a b series NA car and are trying to really DO SOMETHING.

[slowdsm]

2 years ago i bought 25 brand new k20a2 heads from a place called cylinder head exhange. they got it from some surplus auction and did not know what they have. i got them each for 500 bux and sold them for 1300-1500. within 3 months, 24 were gone. i kept one and just sold it last year. needless to say, there is a lot of people doing k series swap. one guy in florida who bought one of my head email me to tell me he made 365hp with a k24/k20A2 combo. he had 15:1 compression with e85.

[Starrfire]

Please delete the garbage out of this thread. The retarded posts and my post as well, Thanks.

[slowdsm]

i second that.

[johnzm]

hey guys dont listen to vteckidd, he dont know jack shit about allmotor

[Vteckidd]

LOL

[dirtragz]

hey guys dont listen to vteckidd, he dont know jack shit about allmotor

his thread his post , the only way to settle this is go start your own if you can do better!

[Vteckidd]

his thread his post , the only way to settle this is go start your own if you can do better!

thats a good friend of mine hes just talking shit :P

[Gorilla Eg!]

great write up! reps given

[dirtragz]

thats a good friend of mine hes just talking shit :P

oh ok well i had your back anyways lol , i got your header installed and drove it like 500 miles and some idiot pulled out in front of me and to keep from totaling my car i was forced to hop a curb and now shes got a flat spot n it its ok ins is payng me for the damage check out my avatar , oh and ill be headed down to scotty asap to get tuned

[TakeItEazzy]

Thnx alot!! I'm real new to the game but ia helping, up

[Blaton22]

I got a b18b1, i want to put a vtec head on it and run ls vtec. what is some good suggestions to what i should do to get some hp out of it. I want it to be pretty reliable.

[RBS]

I got a b18b1, i want to put a vtec head on it and run ls vtec. what is some good suggestions to what i should do to get some hp out of it. I want it to be pretty reliable.

it comes down whether or not you do or dont have alot of money to spend. cheapest sure fire method of reliability is ARP studs, ARP bolts, JDM ITR pistons, and a EXPERIENCED guru assemble it.


a basemap or tune will definitely help it as well.

[Blaton22]

it comes down whether or not you do or dont have alot of money to spend. cheapest sure fire method of reliability is ARP studs, ARP bolts, JDM ITR pistons, and a EXPERIENCED guru assemble it.


a basemap or tune will definitely help it as well.

I have the money. I dont want to throw all my money at it at one time though. Kind of as i go process.

With what you listed, what am i lookin at with WHP? just a rough estimate maybe?

[RBS]

I have the money. I dont want to throw all my money at it at one time though. Kind of as i go process.

With what you listed, what am i lookin at with WHP? just a rough estimate maybe?

what i listed will support your bottom end, to an extent lol. Ive seen a ITR/B20B bottom ALL STOCK gsr head/cams make 170 @ 8000 rpms, all stock. roughly, give or take more or less.. it was years ago


you can "throw" some aftermarket cams in but at a certain point your head will not be able to flow anymore to support the cams, creating a bottleneck from power. i dont know if your understanding it but its the simplest i can put it LOL



EDIT: i found this, http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2068126, it will give you an idea of whats needed for power. keep in mind whats listed is only the MAJOR components, smaller detail oriented things arent listed and is up to your engine builder. results may vary

[Black4DrEK]

^ Well put!

[Blaton22]

Oh, ok. I appreciate the help! Ill post on here if i need anything else.

[bobertizcool]

so true about the ls rods, mine broke from my ls not even a month after being put in and my friend had 3 motors blow on him cause of the rods being weak. i thought it was his fault, lol. turned out it wasnt.

[b20vtecrr]

sick ass thread, i want an ls vtec now lol

[SRKdrift]

he knows his stuff nice thread

[christian]

nice thread man

[chinitoxamor]

this helps a lot

[jdm eg6]

i was wondering how much power i can get out of a gsr block with b16 head (poor mans type r)

heres a list of mods

b16 head: basically built like a type r head
type cams
dual valve springs
type r valves
type r intake mani with tb
and a mild port and polish
injectors not sure what to get
hytech tri- y headers with 2.5 exhaust piping

bottom end
je pistons 81 mm 11-1 compression
eagle rods
block guard
stock crank shaft

[Vteckidd]

if its built right prob in the 185-195whp level on a dyno like mainstreams

[cjonescrx]

Can anyone recommend a good machine shop in or around the Cumming area?

[JGilbert312]

Good stuff