KEEP IT SIMPLE, Vteckidds Guide to NA

[Da_unknown]

yea we know...

[Ed]

back from the dead.

lol @ kiddracing headers. had to throw that in huh?

[Rayza82]

what can i do to build up my jdm b20 i want to put a vtec head on it but not sure what i need to do to get the bottom end ready can u help vteckidd?

[DustnU]

What about D series??? I am wanting to build a sohc vtec what are some good combos for me?? thanks!!

[BluesClues]

This is very useful information! Thank you! I can really use this as I am trying to build what I have (stock civic). Not trying to be super fast, but I do want a decent amount of power and this is helpful when finding out what all can be down and where to look.

Thank you very much!

[Sticky]

wow.. I LOVE this write up, I will be sure to take notes for when I am planning on building my motor. Thanks Vteckidd, you are the greatest!!!

[tubby]

so if ur using a b18a block and crank u have to use ls rods? that if im using stock stuff

[Vteckidd]

yes LS Crank= LS RODS

[tubby]

so any more info for Pro-cryo.com the website is dead. is this some thing i should consider?

[liltree]

IS ALL THIS INFO THE SAME 4 A F22 BLOCK WITH A F23 HEAD H22 TRANY RUNING ON A ACCORD TYPE R ECU WITH A APEX AFC NEO GAT ENY TIPS FOR TUNING NEED LIL HELP TUNING THE AFC MAN LET ME NO!!!!!!!

[EJdm]

good stuff but how much is it...nice if their was a price or something for us broke ppl that are interested...lol

[slowdsm]

i did not see any mention of a welded combustion chamber. it is a good way to increase compression and create the proper quench pad that keep from detonating too much.

[Vteckidd]

Welding combustion chamber is uneccesary IMO if you want compression change pistons or run flat faced valves

Honda has engineers smarter than us that designed the heads a certain way

[slowdsm]

welded combustion chamber is necessary if you want to extract every bit of horse power from an all motor setup. running a higher dome on a piston increases its weight. this in turn add to the reciprocating mass which rob horse power. by carefully welding and shaping the combustion chamber as to not cause any valve shroudings, you can achieve the proper compression and quench pad distance without adding excessive weight.

i got 265psi of compression on the compression tester on a b18b with topline stock style gsr pistons and welded combustion on a b18b head. this is with stock valves. getting the combustion chamber weld is pretty cheap. you can get the head milded for 25-50 bux at most machine shop. it cost me 100 bux to get the combustion chamber welded. if you get it done by a good welder, you don't have to replace the valve seats. take the head home and do some sweat equity on it. 265psi on a combustion chamber usually equate to 12:1 compression.

[Vteckidd]

there are so many EASIER ways to get compression out of a motor that dont involve welding on a cylinder head

99% of your street car setups on here dont give a shit about rotating mass. Guys arent building LSVTECs with $1500 Carrillo Ti Rods or super lightweight Acrolite pistons.

If a guy came to me wanting to get his compression up for an NA build, id recommend running a taller flat top piston such as an ITR or PR3, or if he didnt want to go into the motors bottom end, flat face valves can bump compression as much as .3

Actually the EASIEST thing to do is if you have a b16 head, switch to a GSR with flat faced valves and you have .6 bump in compression.

too many things can go wrong welding a combustion chamber, and i only would trust maybe 2 people in GA to do it on a Honda Head, and the process can be time comsuming and costly.

This is about keeping it SIMPLE, not complicated.

[slowdsm]

You right. Just a little suggestion for all motor guys too have a little edge. I guess most all motor guys are more into show than go.

[MongolPup]

You right. Just a little suggestion for all motor guys too have a little edge. I guess most all motor guys are more into show than go.

Wait what? Just because Mike doesn't think that's a good idea for these types of builds means that people don't want to make power?

[Vteckidd]

I've owned and built some of the highest whp motors and longest lasting, weldjg combustion chambers is about 30th on my list of things to do on an NA engine

[slowdsm]

I don't see how all motor guys on ia are serious about going fast and quick when no one has anything over 250hp. Unless their there are some forks that are incognito. This 2010. Go big or go toyata prius.

Vteckidd, I think these dudes need to come to you and break some whole wheat bread with you. They need to get those aluminum rods or titanium rods. Their are actually a forge steel rods that is as light as titanium. They need a butcher crank ffwd. They need behives spring so they can run a smaller retainer. They need to send their heads to endyn and have the combustion chamber welded. They need to drop some money for your header.

[all-mota]

I don't see how all motor guys on ia are serious about going fast and quick when no one has anything over 250hp. Unless their there are some forks that are incognito. This 2010. Go big or go toyata prius.

Vteckidd, I think these dudes need to come to you and break some whole wheat bread with you. They need to get those aluminum rods or titanium rods. Their are actually a forge steel rods that is as light as titanium. They need a butcher crank ffwd. They need behives spring so they can run a smaller retainer. They need to send their heads to endyn and have the combustion chamber welded. They need to drop some money for your header.

lol where you been man thats old shit. and my car makes plenty of power on pump gas, but i guess i'm incognito.

you don't need aluminum rods or any of the stuff you just said to make power my setup is simple and can be replicated all day long in fact i will have a new one in the works here soon to make even more, i'll be sure to post the graphs and the setup.

[turbomirage]

^^^ How much power are you making now with your current set-up?

[Vteckidd]

I don't know I made 237/159 with eagle rods cp pistons and a mild ported aebs manifold 12:1 compression

I've see guys with way more trick setup not come within 15-20 whp of my motor from 4 years ago

[On_Her_Face]

I wish you hd a cook book for a K20

[Vteckidd]

its simple ask me most of the B Series rules apply

[On_Her_Face]

230~250 whp help?

[slowdsm]

lol where you been man thats old shit. and my car makes plenty of power on pump gas, but i guess i'm incognito.

you don't need aluminum rods or any of the stuff you just said to make power my setup is simple and can be replicated all day long in fact i will have a new one in the works here soon to make even more, i'll be sure to post the graphs and the setup.

How much is plenty?

Every gram matter in a n/a set up when you are working with small displacement. I know most n/a guys leave some room to make excuses when they lose a race. I know it is not the money issue because there is nothing cheap about a vtec b series or k series. It just senseless build a na setup with with heavy ass parts. Next time you get vteckidd to build you an na set don't tell him you want some weak apple sauce 175hp or even 200hp setup. Tell him you will bust your ass at work and you are going to give him some real money because you want 300hp+ from your b series. Anything less is unacceptable. This is 2010. Support the economy. Get the good parts if you insist on running na.

[Vteckidd]

How much is plenty?

Every gram matter in a n/a set up when you are working with small displacement. I know most n/a guys leave some room to make excuses when they lose a race. I know it is not the money issue because there is nothing cheap about a vtec b series or k series. It just senseless build a na setup with with heavy ass parts. Next time you get vteckidd to build you an na set don't tell him you want some weak apple sauce 175hp or even 200hp setup. Tell him you will bust your ass at work and you are going to give him some real money because you want 300hp+ from your b series. Anything less is unacceptable. This is 2010. Support the economy. Get the good parts if you insist on running na.

this is the most retarded statement ever.

Its NEVER about how much money you spend, its about the entire package working together. Sure you can pick up 3-4hp from running $1500 rods over $300 eagles, but how many people on this board are going to do that?

You miss the entire point of this thread. This was my KEEP IT SIMPLE GUIDE TO NA.

This thread is for your average to medium built motors for guys running STREET ENGINES. The shit you are talking about is for all out race engines, and if someone is building that kind of motor they arent coming to IA for advice.

I have made MORE POWER with OFF THE SHELF parts that almost anyone in GA, so has All-MOTA. Both of us have had engines break the 230+whp mark with OFF THE SHELF PARTS. Stuff that everyone can use an afford.

You AVERAGE street engine is fine with Eagles, CPs, Wisecos, Minimal port work, etc. You are talking about welding combustion chambers when there is stuff you can do WAY EASIER than than to up your compression SAFELY.

How much power have your setups made? 300whp out of a B Series? GImme a break kid thats only been done about 5 times in the world.

THESE GUYS ARENT BUILDING THOSE KIND OF MOTORS. This thread is for guys building 190-220whp engines with minimal money. Its about spending money in the RIGHT AREAS.

Learn that

[On_Her_Face]

230~250 whp help?

Is this possible with a K-series with "off the self" parts?

[Vteckidd]

Is this possible with a K-series with "off the self" parts?

kinda depends on how much you want to spend though.

Stock motor is pushing it ill be honest thats about 50whp over stock. Most STOCK K20A2s make around 180-185whp.

You need:
KPRO
KiddRACING header (or something like it but its proven mines the best power for the money)
IPS cams or Toroku or GOPWR
valvetrain
RBC Intake manifold
Exhaust


If the motor is healthy that should put you around 220whpish. maybe more if you are lucky.

Almost anyone local thats broken 220whp had rods and pistons though

[DustnU]

My boy has a Fg coupe and with SSR header, Injen cold air, and apex-i N1 he made 202 whp and 152 Tq, man K's are rediculous!!

[Vteckidd]

My boy has a Fg coupe and with SSR header, Injen cold air, and apex-i N1 he made 202 whp and 152 Tq, man K's are rediculous!!

thats about right, B@D @PPLES car made 198whp with just my header. No intake, no tuning, no exhaust just a header and 2 pulls on the dyno.

[On_Her_Face]

kinda depends on how much you want to spend though.

Stock motor is pushing it ill be honest thats about 50whp over stock. Most STOCK K20A2s make around 180-185whp.

You need:
KPRO
KiddRACING header (or something like it but its proven mines the best power for the money)
IPS cams or Toroku or GOPWR
valvetrain
RBC Intake manifold
Exhaust


If the motor is healthy that should put you around 220whpish. maybe more if you are lucky.

Almost anyone local thats broken 220whp had rods and pistons though

Thanks I'm going to price all of this out...

[all-mota]

How much is plenty?

Every gram matter in a n/a set up when you are working with small displacement. I know most n/a guys leave some room to make excuses when they lose a race. I know it is not the money issue because there is nothing cheap about a vtec b series or k series. It just senseless build a na setup with with heavy ass parts. Next time you get vteckidd to build you an na set don't tell him you want some weak apple sauce 175hp or even 200hp setup. Tell him you will bust your ass at work and you are going to give him some real money because you want 300hp+ from your b series. Anything less is unacceptable. This is 2010. Support the economy. Get the good parts if you insist on running na.

lol your funny 260whp and almost 300bhp on pump gas out of a 1.9 liter

theres not a cheap part in my engine trust me but that comes with spending the money for the best parts

just a quick add up of a few of the thing in my engine are

carrilo pro a rods $750
sleeved block $950
cnc ported head with hand work $1200
smsp header $1300
jenvey itb's $1600 which was a good deal

and i could keep going but all of the parts in my engine can be bought off the shelf i'll gladly post everything and someone is more than welcome to replicate it.

thats more than most people want to spend on there whole build but they want as much power as possible and want to cheap out every way they can thats why most of them just throw a turbo on their car and say it's fast there not commited to doing things right.

[slowdsm]

this is my dyno run @ 20psi.

http://s899.photobucket.com/albums/a...t=IMG_0172.jpg

i am not a stranger to making decent power.

[slowdsm]

this is the most retarded statement ever.

Its NEVER about how much money you spend, its about the entire package working together. Sure you can pick up 3-4hp from running $1500 rods over $300 eagles, but how many people on this board are going to do that?

You miss the entire point of this thread. This was my KEEP IT SIMPLE GUIDE TO NA.

This thread is for your average to medium built motors for guys running STREET ENGINES. The shit you are talking about is for all out race engines, and if someone is building that kind of motor they arent coming to IA for advice.

I have made MORE POWER with OFF THE SHELF parts that almost anyone in GA, so has All-MOTA. Both of us have had engines break the 230+whp mark with OFF THE SHELF PARTS. Stuff that everyone can use an afford.

You AVERAGE street engine is fine with Eagles, CPs, Wisecos, Minimal port work, etc. You are talking about welding combustion chambers when there is stuff you can do WAY EASIER than than to up your compression SAFELY.

How much power have your setups made? 300whp out of a B Series? GImme a break kid thats only been done about 5 times in the world.

THESE GUYS ARENT BUILDING THOSE KIND OF MOTORS. This thread is for guys building 190-220whp engines with minimal money. Its about spending money in the RIGHT AREAS.

Learn that

how do you know that you only going to get 3-4 horse from running the lighter rods? if i am building an all motor car, i will spend that money to get that 3-4hp.

increasing compression is only ne benefit of welding the combustion chamber. you will reduce significant piston weight from running a shorter dome. i am pretty sure you will free up significant amount of horse power to the wheel when the weight saving are combined with with a lighten crank, lighter rods, lighten flywheel, lighten wheels, 3 pucks clutch disc (more chatter but lighter than 6 or 4 pucks), behive spring (use a smaller retainer), narrow skirt pistons. you will have a better quench pad surface too which you can add a little more timing to pick up a little more power.

you are right. this thread is about keeping it simple. get everything done while the motor is out. spend a little extra money and have all the good bottom end and head mods. basically anything that require pulling the motor should be done ahead of time. this is important when you are paying someone to do the work for you because the money you pay for multiple shop visits can be use to buy the parts you needed to begin with. the complication is having to go back and explaining to your homeboy why you got dusted.

vteckidd. i know you are the all motor expert. i know you know a lot about all motor setups. tell these forks on here the truth and not what they want to hear. 200hp is not enough to hang anymore. tell them they need to spend money to go fast. tell them this is 2010 and there are only 5 b series in the 300hp range because they only want to spend money on some off the shelf pistons and eagle rods.

[slowdsm]

lol your funny 260whp and almost 300bhp on pump gas out of a 1.9 liter

theres not a cheap part in my engine trust me but that comes with spending the money for the best parts

just a quick add up of a few of the thing in my engine are

carrilo pro a rods $750
sleeved block $950
cnc ported head with hand work $1200
smsp header $1300
jenvey itb's $1600 which was a good deal

and i could keep going but all of the parts in my engine can be bought off the shelf i'll gladly post everything and someone is more than welcome to replicate it.

thats more than most people want to spend on there whole build but they want as much power as possible and want to cheap out every way they can thats why most of them just throw a turbo on their car and say it's fast there not commited to doing things right.

260hp. now that is not bad on pump gas for all motor. will we see some e85 or race gas with a little more timing to see if you will be the 6th person with 300hp all motor?

i am running a turbo because i think anything less than 500hp is a little boring. heck, i was told that you need 600hp on the street to be cool but that is a whole different discussion.

btw. there is a lot of e85 station around here now. has anyone try it on an all motor build on ia. this can be a simple and relatively cheap mod. you can definitely turn the timing up with e85.

[all-mota]

260hp. now that is not bad on pump gas for all motor. will we see some e85 or race gas with a little more timing to see if you will be the 6th person with 300hp all motor?

i am running a turbo because i think anything less than 500hp is a little boring. heck, i was told that you need 600hp on the street to be cool but that is a whole different discussion.

btw. there is a lot of e85 station around here now. has anyone try it on an all motor build on ia. this can be a simple and relatively cheap mod. you can definitely turn the timing up with e85.

all motor cars aren't like turbo cars you can't pick up 50whp with race gas and timing it's only worth about 10whp if your lucky

[turbomirage]

"thats more than most people want to spend on there whole build but they want as much power as possible and want to cheap out every way they can thats why most of them just throw a turbo on their car and say it's fast there not commited to doing things right."

Bingo, this quote says it all. No one wants to spend that much on an N/A set-up on here because that is retarded. They want to get as much power as they can, so they put a turbo on their car. Cheap out? Why wouldn't you want to go fast for cheaper? And what is not right about putting a turbo on your car? By doing this you gain the same power and more for less money than if you stayed N/A. Nothing is wrong with N/A, but if you want to go fast with N/A, go V8. It's just how it is.

And another thing, this "I love the instant power of N/A" is cool and all, but it's a poor excuse for not wanting to go turbo. Get real, it is not more fun to drive a N/A 4 cylinder than a turbo 4 cylinder. That is why you see all these guys on here wanting to go turbo with their Honda motors. They are tired of being slow and want to get with the program, or they want to go fast for cheaper. That's it. If N/A is for you, then all power to you. But I think you are you a little naive if you think putting a turbo on your Honda motor is "cheaping out."

Vteckkid, this is a good thread for guys wanting to stay N/A and gain some power. You are an expert in it as well as all-mota. Slowdsm was just trying to help give some info, that's all. But I think that was a stupid comment all-mota posted about going turbo, that's why I posted.

[Vteckidd]

this is my dyno run @ 20psi.

http://s899.photobucket.com/albums/a...t=IMG_0172.jpg

i am not a stranger to making decent power.

Congrats its a Turbo car, wtf does that have to do with an NA honda?

[MongolPup]

I personally think this thread has gotten retarded, Mike if you want it sanitized/split let me know.