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Not even close to true. My stock FD made less power than stock Corvettes and I was a lot faster than them on the track. My NA FB was even faster, but it wasn't stock. You cannot remove the driver from the race, or we wouldn't even need to have any races.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catnip
I'm pretty sure he's talking about drag racing.
Not that the driver doesn't matter there, but I would figure it would be a little less dramatic.
I think you're missing the point. Your claiming that you out run sr20 powered cars in your rx7......... and im sure you do........Quote:
Originally Posted by David88vert
but because its an rx7..... not because its rotary. The argument isnt rx7 vs other nonrotary powered cars....
im not saying 240sx > rx7..... im saying (insert engine here) rx7 > rotary rx7. Id take an sr20 powered rx7 any day of the week over a rotary.
any racing............. an ls1 rx7 is a better car... better at everything. any track any where. leguna seca or the salt flats.... it's simply a better car.Quote:
Originally Posted by simontibbett
rx7 is a great vehicle... legendary vehicle... worthy of all the recognition and praise it gets.............. but the engine is horse shit.
You're an idiot if you think that! LOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
Tell me why there aren't that many V8 swapped RX-7s at the track then! Better yet tell me why there are hundreds of rotary powered race cars and even many times racing against V8 powered cars. You're basing that opinion on NOTHING and it's so wrong it's funny. Maybe the little street tuner crowd you seem to associate yourself with don't like rotaries, but in real racing, they're widely used and widely successful. Ever heard of Formula Mazda/Star Mazda? Those cars can run three seasons without even remotely rebuilding the engine.
Here's a stupid rotary for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQkhE6BOwK4
I've had a bunch of them, and they have been a lot more reliable than a lot of other motors. They also made the car into a much more balanced machine than other motors. So, how is the motor poor? If you want low emissions and high mpg, get a 4 cyl Honda, not an engine that is ready to go racing. If you want an engine with torque to haul stuff around, get a truck with an lsx, not a little RX7.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
An SR cannot maintain the same engine placement/weight as the 12a or 13b. NA - p-port 13b's are not really streetable, but will kill a built NA SR. A decent ported 12a can still make 200rwhp though, so still better in light car than an SR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
Turbo - I know of home-built turboed 12a's in GA that make over 650rwhp. Not exactly weak from a 1.1L.
Now - either engine can supply more power than a light chassis should need. HP is nothing without traction.
The OP has a clean FB with limited traction. There is no reason to change from rotary. Dropping in a 13B-T is the easiest swap for him to do. Get a TII, and everything pops in. Very easy way to put 250rwhp down with only a couple of mods. 250rwhp in a stock FB is a lot.
Wherever you read this, have a look at Jim Downing's builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
Plus, in American IMSA history, Rotary powered cars have the highest winning percentage over any other power plant.
LAguna Seca btw.
I'm basing that on owning rx7s and doing v8 rx7 conversions. Driving them before and after. I'm basing it on years of being on rx7 forums and having conversations with people who also own rx7s and drove them before and after v8 conversions. You live right next door to hinson supercars.... you should know better.Quote:
Originally Posted by simontibbett
Agree to disagree is all i can tell you. The next time i own an rx7 i'll let you know which dumpster you can find a rotary in.
Class specifications always benefit the rotary engine. You really think rotaries would win anything in a "run what you brung" environment?Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ25RUN
Cool, I look forward to picking it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
Last time I checked Hinson is in AL...lol. I do however live close to Downing, Team Spencer, Dempsey, and other teams that successfully race rotary powered cars.
Rotaries are typically heavily restricted so that's not exactly true. I recall an old tube frame 510 with a rotary in it that use to beat up on ex-NASCARs so...think what you like. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
again...... you're giving the engine credit for the car........ The 510 is a great vehicle............ it's not the rotary. sr20 510 would do the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by simontibbett
Rx7 is one of my favorite cars ever, its just highly unfortunate that they built them with the wrong engine. I view this as a right of passage, you have to remove the rotary engine to prove that you're worthy of owning the car.
No...it wouldn't. lol A 700HP SR20 would not be as reliable or efficient on a road course as a 700HP rotary. It was a tube framed car, 510 means nothing, 510 body is about all 510 that was on the car, a real 510 would have no chance against stock cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
You need to get out more and learn before you spread your opinions as facts.
I'm not saying the rotary is the god of road racing engines, I'm just saying they're not pointless as you seem to think.
I "got out" purchased an rx7.... eventually did a v8 conversion and formed an opinion based on those experiences. I watched the v8 rx7 revolution form into what it is now. Hinson supercars........... I raced Brain Hinson on a back road before anyone knew who he was.Quote:
Originally Posted by simontibbett
being a tube frame car just goes further to make my point for me................... no, it wasnt a 510.... it became something better than a 510. You could put a lot of engines in a 510 tube race car and produce the same result.
...OK? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
you said i need to "get out more" and discredited my opinion of rotaries..... I've owned 4 rx7s.... how much getting out do i need to do? am i not qualified to have an opinion until i'm the driver of the 787b?Quote:
Originally Posted by simontibbett
I don't care what you've owned or who you've raced against. Statistics and results speak for themselves and you're going against those, which makes no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
Just because you had four RX-7s and didn't like them doesn't mean anything is better than a rotary or that an RX-7 is always better with a V8.
Ok, lets talk statistics.Quote:
Originally Posted by simontibbett
24 hr Lemans is the premier sports car race in the world. 1 Rotary in the history of humanity has won that race.
Ok, lets move on over to JGTC and see how rotaries are doin.............. what? only 1 win there too????? Even a Silvia has 1 win...................
Rotary dominates the under 2 liter race though...... congratulations on that gimmick. Displacement measurement sure is fair and balanced between a rotary and a piston.
One win at Le Mans yes and a pretty lucky win. However rotaries have always suffered from heavy restrictions because they are that much more efficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
I guess you forgot about the other results:
-24 Hours of Daytona class wins 10 years in a row.
-IMSA GTU Championship wins.
-Large RX-8 success in the Rolex series with two Rolex 24 wins.
Should I keep going?
FYI rotaries are typically classed in higher displacement classes.
Me,
If is a Drag oriented car i will go with the LS V8 engine no doubt about it, also if is a play car a street machine, But if is going to be a dedicated road race machine i will do a P-Port 13B followed by a Hollinger semi-sequential trany, it will make a killer combo on a light first get RX-7 a complete track MONSTER,
But again that is my likes and preferences,
By the way i am building a 12A engine that i am doing a awesome Turbo Street Port and the side-housings after the port job will be lapped at Downing performance that is going to be in a street Toyota TE72 that is going to be around very soon, and as soon as my customer allowed me i will post pictures!
By the way, Simontibet, awesome video on that Rotary car at RA!
Never knew Downing did lapping or anything along the lines of engine work at all.
yeah........... 10 years in a row in the 2 liter class.Quote:
Originally Posted by simontibbett
...and the others?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
I can post more results than that above your 2 liter argument. You can't win here. lol
shows how great the rx7 really is....... managed to win some races even with a handicapped engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by simontibbett
count me out of the "argument" for now, i may continue to respond at some point tonight..... but i tweaked my back today and in about 15 minutes im probably not gonna remember my own name. :goodjob:
Some? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
Do research then post.
I got an FB RX-7 yesterday from Aaron (Allmota) and it is awesome
Pic: Atlanta Spottings 6 | Facebook
Traded my EG hatch for it because he really wanted one. Back in the day he had a white EG hatch and came to the various gwinnett meets if anyone remembers. I also got a 78 corolla from him many years ago, Thanks a lot Aaron!
Nice, looks good.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
SomeQuote:
Originally Posted by simontibbett
1: one indeterminate quantity, portion, or number as distinguished from the rest
2: an indefinite additional amount <ran a mile and then some>
It annoys me greatly when someone attempting to talk down to me cant understand the simplest of things.
What is a run what you brung environment? What keeps me from showing up with a GE90? That's quite open ended as nowhere does it say i can't show up with JATO propulsion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
i see you'll discredit a rotary no matter what the circumstance. No matter how winning the result. They only place i'll give you a rotary is worse of then an American V8 is the expense required.
I seriously can't believe someone who says a rotary car having a racing class make specs specifically for it. In fact, most race organisers tried their best to keep a rotary restricted as much as possible. Never more so than 1991's Le Mans
In 1991 at Le Mans, the ACO did whatever possible to keep Mazda from racing the 787B. Only word from Jacky Ickx changed their mind. So they allowed the car to be built to Category 2 specification. Not the more current Category 1 with F1 derived engines. To add, all the Cat 1 cars would start at the front of the grid irregardless of where they qualified. So, the 787B started 19th even though it qualified 12th.
Competition for the 787B; the last 3 great Gr C race cars. Pugs 905, Sauber C11, and the fendered F1 car that was the Jag XJR-14.
Rotaries...banned at Le Mans since 1992.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
JGTC in terms of GT500 or GT300?
GT500 requires facotry efforts and Mazda has never had one.
GT300. That car was built by Re Amemiya not a factory team as the issue with the GT300 is not engine but chassis choice. You can even race Daytona Prototypes against GT3s.
What under 2 liter racing are you talking about?
"run what you brung" would be a class without ballast weight requirements. The ban that effected the 787b was announced before the car won, it wasnt a result of the car winning. just so happens the car won the year before it took effect. They add weight based on displacement, there's no fair and accurate way to apply a universal rule for both piston and rotary engines. The 787b was much lighter than any car on the track that day, thats why it won..... not because it was rotary powered. Being rotary was the reason it was allowed to be so light, but not the reason it won.Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ25RUN
Also, you rotards are getting all butt hurt about my opinion. I'm not comparing the engine to a Ford Fiesta engine.... so far i've compared it to an sr20 and an ls1...... if you're insulted by me comparing a rotary to either of those highly respected engines..... then you need to pull your head out of the clouds.
As i said before, agree to disagree..... i love rx7s.... rx7 will most likely be my next project, when it happens..... i'll let you guys know which dumpster you can find a rotary in.
Once again, do research, then talk. All of your weight talk isn't exactly the problem. Rotaries have always faced large restrictions. Rotary powered race cars were not allowed to be lighter to the extent of domination, do you think the organizers were just stupid and thought oh small engine, it must be slow, here weigh less? They don't just apply weight regulations. RESTRICTORS. Once again, RESEARCH. Typically rotaries are forced to run in higher displacement classes, not sure why you keep ignoring facts. The 787B happened to be what, 100lbs lighter than the 2nd place car? You think that's why it won? LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
Not only rotary cars are allowed to be lighter where some cases they are, like I said, it's racing, unless it's a spec series cars will be adjusted to be competitive. That's the way racing works.
There are no "run what you brung" classes in any major racing organizations, this is racing, not the fast and the furious. The few "run what you brung" classes that do exist in amateur road racing, rotaries are actually quite dominant when they show up, once again, do research because you're just guessing.
I don't care what you compare a rotary to, but I will say an SR20 is not better in road race configuration. Not a chance.
initially the cars were 100KG lighter, no lbs... 100kg = 220lbs, after qualifying they argued for more weight removal and eventually got down to 830kg, almost 400lbs lighter than the class requirement.Quote:
Originally Posted by simontibbett
787b didnt win because it was the fastest car. The 787b that won, qualified 19th.... the others qualified as low as 24th. The 787b that won didnt record a single lap faster than the merc. The same 787b that won lemans, went on to finish 10th in it's next race when the weight was added back to the car. 787b won lemans because it tire and gassed a bunch of heavier cars.... not because it was the fastest car. Being right at 400lbs lighter than any other car..................keep in mind.... these are cars that only weigh around 2200 lbs.... 400 lbs is a massive difference....... they raced a fuel/tire conservation race and won.
so do some fucking research you stuck up faggot
I've said the same shit from my first post and you keep telling me to do research.... do i have to spell everything out for you fucking jackasses. I dont like for every fucking one of my posts to look like a goddamn history channel exhibit but you kids wont take anything less. i dont care if you disagree with me, but telling me to do research ive obviously done 50 times just makes me want to reach thru the screen and slap you. i've clearly pointed out holes in your "research", so now you can move along and quit annoying me. I've already extended the olive branch to you by offering you the dumpster location for my rotaries.
The 787B was Banned from endurance races cuz the engine (AFTER RESEARCH) from FIA, FIA determine that the 4 rotor engine got more displacement than what Mazda claim it got, FIA said that Mazda got to count each and every side of each Triangle in the engine, mean 652cc X 12 to a whooping 7.824 liter displacement,
In Drag Racing The 3 rotor engine in the Modified Class got to weight the same as a Inline 6 Piston counterpart, also in the Full Chassis Class the same, the 13B 2 rotor need to weight the same as any 4 cylinder on both classes too,
And yes there is no race sanction that allowed a class like RUN WHAT YOU BRUNG, that is just non existent, unless is in Atlanta Motor Speed Way on Friday nights drag.
Also endurance races not always get won by the fastest cars, they do get won by the more reliable team, and hell yes the 400 Lbs. advantage play a big role on fuel savings and tire degradation!
So given what we know.........Quote:
Originally Posted by dragoncelica
Mazda has 1 win ever in 24 lemans.
Mazda underrates their displacement to gain weight advantages.
Mazda's 1 win was with a 400lb weight advantage (note: cars only weigh 2200lbs)
The fastest Mazda qualified 19th.
Mazda won off fuel and tire management, not speed. Didnt post a single lap faster than runner up.
What is a more accurate statement to make?
A: Mazda's win is a black mark on history seeing as how they more or less cheated to win.
B: A clear example of rotary superiority to piston engines.
Well basically yes and no,
They win with the rules as they where, as like any Mazda book they classified the engine as it just have 2 combustion chambers cuz they are like that but what they didnt say is those 2 combustion chambers share 2 rotors with 3 sides each, in a 2 rotor motor, thats why they are the 1.3 (13B) that consume Gas like a 3.9, go figure,
But Mazda did play the rules on that race fair and square, and they win legally, but the complains from the big $$$ competitors landed instantly like a 10 megaton BOMB and FIA did what they do the very NEXT race and the rest is History.
Toyota is doing a Big effort this year to get away with a Hybrid Car i hope they do have a win too, in Le Mans, but Audy and others have a very good Hybrid setup too, that is as good if not better, than the Toyota one, lets see what happen!
I like how you're singling out Le Mans as the only race that matters to the rotary now and ignoring results elsewhere. Did the SR20 or LS ever win Le Mans overall? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
Like I said, the 787B winning Le Mans was luck, it wasn't because it was the fastest car, or the lightest, they just had better luck and kept a smooth race.
This thread is dumb, I already said I agree to disagree but you keep posting, you don't like the rotary, I do, we both agree they aren't God's gift to the automotive world, what else is there to say? lol IT'S A DAMN ENGINE WHO CARES?!?!?!
nice!!
seems like you got shut down in your own argument now you're trying to end it.Quote:
Originally Posted by simontibbett
that's smart though
if you can't beat him join him.
well......... unlike the 4 rotor mazda................. the sr20 is actually a production engine. I wonder what would happen if you added 2 more pistons to the sr20..............................................Quote:
Originally Posted by simontibbett
you see where im going with this dont you?
my annoyance wasnt with you disagreeing with me. I welcome everyone to disagree with me. You keep telling me to "do research" before i post, you should know by now that i do.
Really? Because I ever argued about the 787B? lol....Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson9995
There's no way to win an argument that started on opinions, I can't make him like what I like, so what's the point in continuing?
You clearly did research on the 787B, because the win at Le Mans was the only win they had that was controversial and luck. You never backed up any championships or series race wins. All this started with was rotaries are great road race engines with loads of success, I even said the Le Mans win wasn't really on my list of success as I'm the first to say that win was 100% luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
You argue competition adjustments when the reality is EVERY car racing has adjustments to be competitive. V8, V12, V10, turbo 4 cylinder, doesn't matter, they all have adjustments. Typically rotaries face very tight restrictor plate restrictions and that was the death of rotaries in professional sports car racing aside from the GA RX-8s which will be done after this year.
In the end it doesn't matter, it's road racing, pick what you want to run with and race. If everyone ran V8s we would change the name...to NASCAR. I don't know what you were getting at with the SR20 thing, you're saying the R26B was an unfair engine because it wasn't a production engine? lol