Weird Turbo/Dyno/Tuning Problem

[19'sPrelude]

So, to give you all a little background, I just got done with my turbo build and after taking it to Ed on Friday for a 4 hour tune/dyno session, I left VERY dissapointed!

First...the setup

H22 Bone Stock
Garrett T3/T4 .57 trim .60/.48 AR
HKS BOV
Turbonetics 38mm Wastegate (7psi)
RC 650cc Injectors
Walbro 255lph
Large front mount 2.5'' piping
2.5'' downpipe & 2.5'' open exhaust all the way to the Apexi muffler
No name tubular manifold

So after 4 hours of tuning with Ed, I was only able to put down 240whp, and the power just dropped off at 7400 rpm. It seemed like the car wasnt getting enough air or was having a problem geting rid of it. We were both really dumbfounded when we could only squeeze 240whp out. Ed stated that he pulls 300+whp out of stock h22's on 7psi quite often and he didnt understand why this one wasnt.

Does anyone have any ideas or has anyone incountered this as well? Why would the car just quit making power at 7400 rpm? The turbo spools up really quick but then just seems to die out. I dont know, I'm just really frustrated with the outcome, so any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[EmminoDaGreat]

300whp out of a stock h22 on 7psi is high hopes. You figure the avg H22 makes 170whp (a good one neway) some make less, some more... avg hp increase at 7 psi is 70whp. 10hp per lb/boost.. so 240 isnt so bad.

[19'sPrelude]

300whp out of a stock h22 on 7psi is high hopes.

Well, I would have thought that my setup would have made more than 240whp seeing that I dyno'd it N/A at 184whp before I started this project. I mean 60whp is all I get?

My question really isnt about the horsepower, its more about the restriction in the power. Would the dyno sheet help more with diagnosing the problem? I can provide any information needed. Thanks

[EmminoDaGreat]

post the sheet....

[WhiteAccord]

Like emino says, the number you put out seems to be the right number...

And I believe most h22's do put out that much with a stock motor...

If you want more power, Build it, Get a bigger turbo. Ppost sheet.

[jimjam187]

check the back of the mani for cracks I know someone who had the same problem and he had a small crack where the mani meets the header flang.

[19'sPrelude]

post the sheet....

5 min...

[19'sPrelude]

Like emino says, the number you put out seems to be the right number...

And I believe most h22's do put out that much with a stock motor...

If you want more power, Build it, Get a bigger turbo. Ppost sheet.

Thanks for the advice. I'll post the sheet up in a min.

[19'sPrelude]

check the back of the mani for cracks I know someone who had the same problem and he had a small crack where the mani meets the header flang.

Ok, will do. But that caused the car to just die out? The power curve gets really jumpy at the top end too, I'm just getting frustrated with all of this.....

[jimjam187]

funny thing about it was it was building boost but no hp gain, when you turned the boost cont up hp went down b/c of the crack.

[WhiteAccord]

But then you wouldnt want to increase boost on a Stock H22.

[19'sPrelude]

Here is the sheet...Notice how it just dies out at 7400 rpm and how the curve gets REALLY choppy. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[EmminoDaGreat]

air/fuels look great, but the choppyness in the graph could be timing, or a lower smoothing graph, if the software can smooth to 5 than it would look better... Pm Scotty (scttydb411) if you interested in having him take a look at your tune etc...

[WhiteAccord]

Dude you didnt even make 240....

Looks like ocean waves!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Try upgrading cap, rotor, spark plug wires, Check for any leaks.

[19'sPrelude]

air/fuels look great, but the choppyness in the graph could be timing, or a lower smoothing graph, if the software can smooth to 5 than it would look better... Pm Scotty (scttydb411) if you interested in having him take a look at your tune etc...

Ed tried advancing and retarded timing but it didnt show any improvement. I'm going to shoot Scotty a pm and see what he thinks.

[19'sPrelude]

Dude you didnt even make 240....

Looks like ocean waves!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Try upgrading cap, rotor, spark plug wires, Check for any leaks.

I know, this is SO frustrating! Upgrading all the following or just replacing with new OEM? Where do I check for leaks? Charge pipes and compressor side or downpipe and exhaust side?

[EmminoDaGreat]

you probably dont have boost leaks, make sure your running ngk plug wires, w/ ngk bkr7e-11 plugs gapped to around .028

[19'sPrelude]

I know that I'm running a 7 heat range (?) NGK plug gapped at .028 but the rest of my ignition is stock.

[2.3 Evo 8]

First, is that 11.7 A/F on 93 pump gas?

Do you have a test pipe or cat? 2.5 in exhaust isn't restrictive at that power level.

Get out the soapy water, it's times to test for a boost leak. I would do a compression test too.

Last, upgrading the ignition is a great idea.

[2.3 Evo 8]

I know, this is SO frustrating! Upgrading all the following or just replacing with new OEM? Where do I check for leaks? Charge pipes and compressor side or downpipe and exhaust side?

Check for leaks on the intercooler pipes, couplers, fmic, intake gaskets, and throttle body.

[19'sPrelude]

First, is that 11.7 A/F on 93 pump gas?

Do you have a test pipe or cat? 2.5 in exhaust isn't restrictive at that power level.

Get out the soapy water, it's times to test for a boost leak. I would do a compression test too.

Last, upgrading the ignition is a great idea.

Yes, it's 11.7 on 93 pump gas....is this good or bad?

I dont have any cat or test pipe, its just an open 2.5'' from the turbo back to the Apexi muffler.

Just check for any sort of leaks from the turbo, pipings, flanges, ect? I may have a small vaccum leak from a hose on the intake manifold but I highly doubt that is causing my problem.

[SPOOLIN]

whats the size of your turbo compressor wheel? That could answer some power estimation questions. You might just need a bigger turbo, could be to small for the motor making it hard to keep producing power efficiently.

[19'sPrelude]

whats the size of your turbo compressor wheel? That could answer some power estimation questions. You might just need a bigger turbo, could be to small for the motor making it hard to keep producing power efficiently.

All I know about the turbo is:

Garrett
Model - T3/T04E
Compressor A/R - .60
Compressor Trim - 57
Turbine A/R - .48
Turbine Trim - Stage 1 (72)
Flanges - T3 Manifold , T3/T4 5 bolt "oversized" exhaust

[Formally...]

Damn Spoolin beat me too it. Do you know what stage wheel you have in the exhuast side of the turbo. A .48a/r is fairly small for a 2.2L motor. Also, have you checked all the cam timing. I have seen a few H22s that have choppy power and it was due to the cam timing being off. Later.

[19'sPrelude]

Damn Spoolin beat me too it. Do you know what stage wheel you have in the exhuast side of the turbo. A .48a/r is fairly small for a 2.2L motor. Also, have you checked all the cam timing. I have seen a few H22s that have choppy power and it was due to the cam timing being off. Later.

All the info that I posted above is all I know about the turbo. As far as the timing goes, Ed at Balanced Performance tried advancing and retarding the timing and it showed no improvement.

[SPOOLIN]

yeah if your compression is reading good on the motor, i strongly advise that your turbo is choking the chicken.

[IDCoconut]

He's talking about cam timing.

[19'sPrelude]

He's talking about cam timing.

I know that Ed tuned the turbo on bothsides of Vtec and found the optimal crossover point for it. I know that he spent about an hour working with the vtec timing, so I dont know if that really means anything regarding cam timing.

As far as the timing I was talking about, I assume the timing he retarded and advanced was the ignition timing.

[19'sPrelude]

yeah if your compression is reading good on the motor, i strongly advise that your turbo is choking the chicken.

So, run a compression test, see what it reads, then if its good the problem lies in the size of my turbo? Would the no name manifold be contributing to the problem? I dont think the 2.5'' downpipe and exhaust would make any noticeable difference in power until 500+ hp.

I just dont understand the choppyness and the drop in power at 7400. This is just getting really frustrating and upsetting.

[Batlground]

300whp out of a stock h22 on 7psi is high hopes. You figure the avg H22 makes 170whp (a good one neway) some make less, some more... avg hp increase at 7 psi is 70whp. 10hp per lb/boost.. so 240 isnt so bad.

+1

7psi with that turbo suonds dead on balls accurate

[SPOOLIN]

choppyness and drop in power is the main indicator that your turbo is just running out of life at that point. Post a picture of your manifold. Ive seen some REALLY ****ty manifolds make a lot more power than you are making. 2.5" downpipe should be perfectly fine for what you are trying to do, there has been 400hp cars running 2.5" downpipes.

[Batlground]

Based on your graph, setup, etc you re making the power you are supposed to be making at that boost level.

The choppyness is from the graph being on SMOOTHING 3.

CHarles mentioned CAM TIMING, not IGNITION TIMING. WHat charles (main stream) means is check your TIMING BELT to make sure it didnt jump a tooth or something, although IMO the graph looks too good to be a cam timing issue.

For a bone stock h22, with a t3/t4, prob a small compressor wheel, thats about right.

Id be happy, im sure the car is much faster

[19'sPrelude]

The turbo on the LEFT is the one that is on the car. The one on the right is a small turbo from a SAAB 9-3

[SPOOLIN]

yeah hell you could prolly switch out just the exhaust side and see gains, but thats gets tricky due to different sized exhaust wheels. Ive seen smoother graphs on STD smoothing.

[19'sPrelude]

yeah hell you could prolly switch out just the exhaust side and see gains, but thats gets tricky due to different sized exhaust wheels. Ive seen smoother graphs on STD smoothing.

Smoother graphs yeah, but the car was getting jerky after 5,000 rpm. I'm going to swap out the .48 with a .63 get another $400+ tuning/dyno and see where I'm at after that.

[Batlground]

what spark plugs are you running? what was your base timing set at?

[19'sPrelude]

Running a 7 heat range NGK gapped to .028

Not sure what the base timing was or is set at. Is there any way for me to pull that info? I'm running Hondata

[2.3 Evo 8]

Ed knows what he is doing, but am I the only one that thinks 11.7 A/F's on 93 octane seem a little high. Especially in the higher rpms?

[Batlground]

Ed knows what he is doing, but am I the only one that thinks 11.7 A/F's on 93 octane seem a little high. Especially in the higher rpms?

nah thats right. 11.5-12.0 is right

[Big J]

stage 1 wheel on a .48 is kinda small, especially with the volume your compressor side can push, that's just a horribly imbalanced turbo as far as flow. A 57 trim w/ a .60 housing can flow WAY more than that exhaust side can handle.