PDA

View Full Version : Back Pressure.. The Myth



stealthrt
12-19-2006, 08:33 AM
I have seen many references to "back pressure" lately and it annoys the hell out of me that people don't understand what they are talking about.

This is not my work, but it makes for great reading, Enjoy.

Backpressure is probably the most widely misunderstood concept in engine tuning. IMO, the reason this concept is so hard to get around lies in the engineering terms surrounding gas flow. Here's the most important ones you need to be aware of to understand the things I'm about to say:

BACKPRESSURE: Resistance to air flow; usually stated in inches H2O or PSI.
DELTA PRESSURE (aka delta P): Describes the pressure drop through a component and is the difference in pressure between two points.

One other concept needs to be covered too, and that's the idea of air pressure vs. velocity. When a moving air column picks up speed, one of the weird things that happens is its pressure drops. So remember through all this that the higher the air velocity for a given volume of gas, the lower it's internal pressure becomes. And remember throughout all of this that I’m no mechanical engineer, simply an enthusiast who done all the reading he can. I don’t claim that this information is the absolute truth; just that it makes sense in my eyes.

Ok, so as you can see, backpressure is actually defined as the resistance to flow. So how can backpressure help power production at any RPM? IT CAN'T. I think the reason people began to think that pressure was in important thing to have at low RPM is because of the term delta pressure. Delta pressure is what you need to produce good power at any RPM, which means that you need to have a pressure DROP when measuring pressures from the cylinder to the exhaust tract (the term "pressure" is what I think continually confuses things). The larger the delta P measurement is, the higher this pressure drop becomes. And as earlier stated, you can understand that this pressure drop means the exhaust gas velocity is increasing as it travels from the cylinder to the exhaust system. Put simply, the higher the delta P value, the faster the exhaust gasses end up traveling. So what does all this mean? It means that it's important to have gas velocity reach a certain point in order to have good power production at any RPM (traditional engine techs sited 240 ft/sec as the magic number, but this is likely outdated by now).

The effect of having larger exhaust pipe diameters (in the primary, secondary, collector and cat-back exhaust tubes) has a direct effect on gas velocity and therefore delta P (as well as backpressure levels). The larger the exhaust diameter, the slower the exhaust gasses end up going for a given amount of airflow. Now the ***** of all this tech is that one exhaust size will not work over a large RPM range, so we are left with trying to find the best compromise in sizing for good low RPM velocity without hindering higher RPM flow ability. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that an engine flows a whole lot more air at 6000 RPM than at 1000 RPM, and so it also makes sense that one single pipe diameter isn't going to achieve optimal gas velocity and pressure at both these RPM points, given the need to flow such varying volumes.

These concepts are why larger exhaust piping works well for high RPM power but hurts low RPM power; because is hurts gas velocity and therefore delta P at low RPM. At higher RPM however, the larger piping lets the engine breath well without having the exhaust gasses get bundled up in the system, which would produce high levels of backpressure and therefore hurt flow. Remember, managing airflow in engines is mainly about three things; maintaining laminar flow and good charge velocity, and doing both of those with varying volumes of air. Ok, so now that all this has been explained, let's cover one last concept (sorry this is getting so long, but it takes time to explain things in straight text!).

This last concept is why low velocity gas flow and backpressure hurt power production. Understand that during the exhaust stroke of a 4 stroke engine, it's not only important to get as much of the spent air/fuel mixture out of the chamber (to make room for the unburned mixture in the intake system), it's also important that these exhaust gasses never turn around and start flowing back into the cylinder. Why would this happen? Because of valve overlap, that's why. At the end of the exhaust stroke, not only does the piston start moving back down the bore to ingest the fresh mixture, but the intake valve also opens to expose the fresh air charge to this event. In modern automotive 4 stroke engines valve overlap occurs at all RPM, so for a short period of time the exhaust system is open to these low pressure influences which can suck things back towards the cylinder. If the exhaust gas velocity is low and pressure is high in the system, this will make everything turn around and go the opposite direction it's supposed to. If these gasses reach the cylinder they will dilute the incoming mixture with unburnable gasses and take up valuable space within the combustion chamber, thus lowering power output (and potentially pushing the intake charge temp beyond the fuel’s knock resistance). So having good velocity and therefore low pressure in the system is absolutely imperative to good power production at any RPM, you just have to remember that these concepts are also dependent on total flow volume. The overall volume of flow is important because it is entirely possible to have both high velocity and high pressure in the system, if there is simply not enough exhaust piping to handle the needed airflow.

It’s all about finding a compromise to work at both high and low RPM on most cars, but that’s a bit beyond the scope of this post. All I am trying to show here is how the term backpressure is in reference to a bad exhaust system, not one that creates good low RPM torque. You can just as easily have backpressure at low RPM too, which would also hurt low RPM cylinder scavenging and increase the potential for gas reversion. And understand that these tuning concepts will also affect cam timing, though that is again probably beyond the scope of this post. At any rate, hope this helps, peace. "

Here is a reply to the above post-

"I've been seeing a resurgence of the backpressure misnomer, but didn't have the time or inclination to write it up. So, again, thanks.

There is one thing I'd like to add to Texan's work:
Exhaust Scavenging
In essence, this is the opposite of the exhaust reversion that Texan describes.

Reversion: at the beginning of the intake stroke during cam overlap, exhaust gas in the header is under high pressure (negative delta P) and is pushed back into the cylinder, diluting the new air/fuel charge.

Scavenging: at the beginning of the intake stroke during cam overlap, the momentum of the exiting exhaust gasses creates a brief vacuum (positive delta P) in the header, pulling out the remaining exhaust gases from the combustion chamber, and allowing the new air/fuel charge to be full-strength.

Scavenging is also the reason for differently shaped headers (4-2-1, 4-1) and collectors. We use the momentum of exiting exhaust from one cylinder to scavenge exhaust from another that is next in the firing order! The different shapes allow for this to happen at different airflow velocities thus at different RPM bands.

Scavenging takes advantage of the momentum of the exiting gasses. In essence, the fast moving exhaust pulse pulls a vacuum behind it. Momentum is mass times velocity. So not only do we need to keep the velocity high to prevent reversion - but it greatly improves the scavenging effect.

Thus we have a balancing act (as others have pointed out). We want to minimize friction to lower the backpressure as much as possible - larger pipes have less friction because they have less surface area per unit volume. But we want to increase the delta P as much as possible to prevent reversion and increase scavenging effects - smaller pipes increase delta P because they increase velocity.

There are lots of tricks to try to widen the useful RPM band (stepped headers) or to increase the overall efficiency (ceramic coated exhausts), but it's still subject to this basic tradeoff:
Friction vs. Velocity
AKA: Backpressure vs. Delta Pressure
You want low friction and high velocity.
"You want low backpressure and high positive delta pressure".

Sport1.3
12-19-2006, 09:15 AM
So how do i Get more back pressure to make more low end power?

stealthrt
12-19-2006, 09:24 AM
So how do i Get more back pressure to make more low end power?

I guess you didn't read any of that?

You don't want to increase "back pressure" to make low end torque, you want to increase the pressure drop at low RPM. You have to make an exhaust selection based on where you want your power though, as your car will flow less air at 1000 RPM than it will at 6000 RPM. Therfore if you have an exhaust selected based on 6000 RPM worth of exhaust gasses, your pressure change at 1000 RPM will be greatly reduced..

Read the entire article again if you don't understand with emphasis on this portion.


The effect of having larger exhaust pipe diameters (in the primary, secondary, collector and cat-back exhaust tubes) has a direct effect on gas velocity and therefore delta P (as well as backpressure levels). The larger the exhaust diameter, the slower the exhaust gasses end up going for a given amount of airflow. Now the ***** of all this tech is that one exhaust size will not work over a large RPM range, so we are left with trying to find the best compromise in sizing for good low RPM velocity without hindering higher RPM flow ability. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that an engine flows a whole lot more air at 6000 RPM than at 1000 RPM, and so it also makes sense that one single pipe diameter isn't going to achieve optimal gas velocity and pressure at both these RPM points, given the need to flow such varying volumes.

These concepts are why larger exhaust piping works well for high RPM power but hurts low RPM power; because is hurts gas velocity and therefore delta P at low RPM. At higher RPM however, the larger piping lets the engine breath well without having the exhaust gasses get bundled up in the system, which would produce high levels of backpressure and therefore hurt flow. Remember, managing airflow in engines is mainly about three things; maintaining laminar flow and good charge velocity, and doing both of those with varying volumes of air. Ok, so now that all this has been explained, let's cover one last concept (sorry this is getting so long, but it takes time to explain things in straight text!).

Sport1.3
12-19-2006, 09:36 AM
I guess you didn't read any of that?

You don't want to increase "back pressure" to make low end torque, you want to increase the pressure drop at low RPM. You have to make an exhaust selection based on where you want your power though, as your car will flow less air at 1000 RPM than it will at 6000 RPM. Therfore if you have an exhaust selected based on 6000 RPM worth of exhaust gasses, your pressure change at 1000 RPM will be greatly reduced..

Read the entire article again if you don't understand with emphasis on this portion.

so will like a 2 1/4" exhaust give me more backpressure?

Big Baller
12-19-2006, 09:41 AM
Hey thanks, its a good article, however, most people on this forum they are ...they...uh...they are idiots....and being as they are idiots.....there isn't really much point in providing any tech information....if you told most of these people that having a polar bear in their cars would provide the added down force required to corner like an F1 car.....they would believe you.

Matt

Oh I'm copy and pasting you're article to a real tech forum if you don't mind.

stealthrt
12-19-2006, 09:49 AM
Hey thanks, its a good article, however, most people on this forum they are ...they...uh...they are idiots....and being as they are idiots.....there isn't really much point in providing any tech information....if you told most of these people that having a polar bear in their cars would provide the added down force required to corner like an F1 car.....they would believe you.

Matt

Oh I'm copy and pasting you're article to a real tech forum if you don't mind.

No problem. I have already posted it on a few other forums where this information can be used, but there is really no harm done in posting it here either.. at least people like yourself can appreciate it here ;)

Sport1.3
12-19-2006, 09:53 AM
Hey thanks, its a good article, however, most people on this forum they are ...they...uh...they are idiots....and being as they are idiots.....there isn't really much point in providing any tech information....if you told most of these people that having a polar bear in their cars would provide the added down force required to corner like an F1 car.....they would believe you.

Matt

Oh I'm copy and pasting you're article to a real tech forum if you don't mind.


would sand bags be a sufficient replacement for a polar bear? i wanna corner better

Big Baller
12-19-2006, 09:54 AM
Yes you can replace the polar bear with sand bags, however you should probally atleast draw a smiley face on the bag.

Sport1.3
12-19-2006, 09:56 AM
Yes you can replace the polar bear with sand bags, however you should probally atleast draw a smiley face on the bag.


can it be a winking smiley face or is that too much?

Big Baller
12-19-2006, 09:58 AM
A winking smiley should be fine, it would be better if you made little arms and legs for the sandbag

Sport1.3
12-19-2006, 10:02 AM
will that give me more back pressure too? i wanna beat skylines

stealthrt
12-19-2006, 10:04 AM
Hey thanks, its a good article, however, most people on this forum they are ...they...uh...they are idiots....


so will like a 2 1/4" exhaust give me more backpressure?

:werd:

At least I tried?!

wantboost
12-19-2006, 12:37 PM
Hey thanks, its a good article, however, most people on this forum they are ...they...uh...they are idiots....and being as they are idiots.....there isn't really much point in providing any tech information....if you told most of these people that having a polar bear in their cars would provide the added down force required to corner like an F1 car.....they would believe you.

Matt

Oh I'm copy and pasting you're article to a real tech forum if you don't mind.
which forum would that be if you dont mind me asking.

nofive-0
12-19-2006, 05:49 PM
Well I guess that is fluid dynamics 101 in a nutshell. Even though some people probably understand the concept, they probably still will say backpressure just because it is a commonly reffered to term that everyone has heard. Like Posi-traction.

Big Baller
12-19-2006, 05:59 PM
which forum would that be if you dont mind me asking.

No you cant ask, I wouldnt want most people from this forum on any of the other forums I'm on. Thats a general statement and I dont know you so please dont be insulted.

Kyle
12-19-2006, 06:32 PM
Are cliff notes available? I don't like reading dissertations concerning cars. That was excesively long. It was like a fucking thesis.

But anyways I have a turbo. I sometimes stick large objects in my exhaust to create back pressure so I can make massive amounts of boost. Is that not a good idea?

stealthrt
12-19-2006, 07:21 PM
Are cliff notes available? I don't like reading dissertations concerning cars. That was excesively long. It was like a fucking thesis.

But anyways I have a turbo. I sometimes stick large objects in my exhaust to create back pressure so I can make massive amounts of boost. Is that not a good idea?

You don't have to read it if you don't want, and these ARE the cliff notes......

I really hope you are kidding

Kyle
12-19-2006, 07:33 PM
Why would I be kidding? I put anything relatively small that I can find in my muffler. It ups my boot about a psi or two. I don't put that much in it. The more back pressure the more boost right? That's how I roll.

No I am kidding, but I am interested in what it says but don't feel like reading it all right now, I will read it another time, but figured if someone could summarize it would be great.

Sport1.3
12-20-2006, 08:30 AM
Why would I be kidding? I put anything relatively small that I can find in my muffler. It ups my boot about a psi or two. I don't put that much in it. The more back pressure the more boost right? That's how I roll.


So you're saying if i add enough backpressure it will boost my car? ive always wanted boost. :cheers:

Halfwit
12-20-2006, 09:01 AM
motherfuckers cant even take helpful information yall need to consider,

1: appreciating the time and effort put into the first post
2: how u might be able to learn
3: how to actually choose an exhaust by how it will help, not how it sounds.

99SI
12-20-2006, 09:53 AM
To the original poster, you said that these were not your words, I would like to know whose they are. I am all about sharing good quality information, however, I also like to see credit given where it is due. Please a little note as to where the source of your info came from so the original writer of the info can get their props. Fluid dynamics and the way that heat, diameter of piping, speed of gasses, and so many other factors that go into "efficiency" make this an extremely complex topic. Although, it can be broken down and understood in simple terms, the true complexity of it still exists if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty of understanding the way to make the internal combustion engine the most efficient.

Sport1.3
12-20-2006, 09:58 AM
To the original poster, you said that these were not your words, I would like to know whose they are. I am all about sharing good quality information, however, I also like to see credit given where it is due. Please a little note as to where the source of your info came from so the original writer of the info can get their props. Fluid dynamics and the way that heat, diameter of piping, speed of gasses, and so many other factors that go into "efficiency" make this an extremely complex topic. Although, it can be broken down and understood in simple terms, the true complexity of it still exists if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty of understanding the way to make the internal combustion engine the most efficient.

so 2 1/4 will give me efficient backpressure then? i want to beat skylines

Mr_Mischif
12-20-2006, 10:01 AM
^^Backpressure only works if your car doesn't leak 2 quarts a day. LOL.

Sport1.3
12-20-2006, 10:02 AM
^^Backpressure only works if your car doesn't leak 2 quarts a day. LOL.

What ab if it Burns 2 qt's a day?? i wanna beat skylines!

99SI
12-20-2006, 10:23 AM
What ab if it Burns 2 qt's a day?? i wanna beat skylines!
Make sure the skyline starts behind you and your secret oil slick will ensure victory. Enough bullshitting Danny, this could be a meaninful thread to some. Although, it's way over most peoples head.

nofive-0
12-20-2006, 12:11 PM
Aw come on. Statics, dynamics, fluid dynamics, and thermo dynamics all easy. Whats not to understand. Haha

Kyle
12-20-2006, 12:45 PM
1 inch piping will give you the backpressure you need to beat skylines. If not just plug your exhause pipe with bannanas and you will have mad back pressure. Your welcome.

bluuuurr
12-22-2006, 09:49 PM
To the original poster, you said that these were not your words, I would like to know whose they are. I am all about sharing good quality information, however, I also like to see credit given where it is due. Please a little note as to where the source of your info came from so the original writer of the info can get their props. Fluid dynamics and the way that heat, diameter of piping, speed of gasses, and so many other factors that go into "efficiency" make this an extremely complex topic. Although, it can be broken down and understood in simple terms, the true complexity of it still exists if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty of understanding the way to make the internal combustion engine the most efficient.


Dave Coleman had a REALLY similar article in SCC a few months ago.. I didn't read this, but it looked like the same one.

stealthrt
12-23-2006, 09:52 AM
Dave Coleman had a REALLY similar article in SCC a few months ago.. I didn't read this, but it looked like the same one.

If so, he copied it from the same source I did. I don't remember exactly where I got it, but I have had it for well over a year.

This thread seems to be showing the true colors of IA.. I can't say I browse everyday, or I am sure I would have noticed months ago, but the bullshit spread throughout an informative thread such as this one is completely unaccepable for anything other than a 100% OT forum. Something I though would be avoided in the Tech section... and was obviously incorrect.

Sport1.3
12-24-2006, 03:25 AM
If so, he copied it from the same source I did. I don't remember exactly where I got it, but I have had it for well over a year.

This thread seems to be showing the true colors of IA.. I can't say I browse everyday, or I am sure I would have noticed months ago, but the bullshit spread throughout an informative thread such as this one is completely unaccepable for anything other than a 100% OT forum. Something I though would be avoided in the Tech section... and was obviously incorrect.

go listen to linkin Park emo boy

IA>you

Kyle
12-24-2006, 03:45 AM
If so, he copied it from the same source I did. I don't remember exactly where I got it, but I have had it for well over a year.

This thread seems to be showing the true colors of IA.. I can't say I browse everyday, or I am sure I would have noticed months ago, but the bullshit spread throughout an informative thread such as this one is completely unaccepable for anything other than a 100% OT forum. Something I though would be avoided in the Tech section... and was obviously incorrect.

I have noticed the same thing it is pretty off topic, but I have only been a member for a few months so it's always been that way for me. You seem to take things entirely too serious.

Hektik
12-24-2006, 07:04 AM
great post


MODS PLEASE CLEAN THIS THREAD UP... KEEP THE BULLSHITTING IN THE WHORESLOUNGE......