help, integra build not turning over

[madwick]

okay so i've bought everything from crower and everthing is installed but for some reason it won't start! it sounds like its struggling, not fast enough to fire. i have spark. heres what i got.

10.5:1 compression 82 mm piston
crower type-r crankshsaft w/ 95 mm stroke
crower valves, springs, retainers
crower stage 3 cams with adjustable cam gears
type-r head/gsr block/sir2 tranny

how far does the timing need to be advanced or reterded since i went from stock 92 mm stroke to 95 mm stroke?

how do i find out if my cam is 180 degrees off (upside down)?
nothing is making contact or interfering.

[JDMBeau]

the car sould be put in TDC at the crank and the cams. there are arrows that point up on the camshaft gears, and also lines on the side to line them up with. also at the crank make sure the points line up.

also are you getting fuel, hear the fuek pump turn on?

also is it OBD1 or OBD2 if its OBD2 the crankshaft position sensor is located on the oil pump, you have to have the right timing gear for it.

in my F20b swap i did in my prelude, i had to change it from OBD1 to OBD2, and i swapped oil pumps and sensor, but didnt use the OBD2 timing gear, and the car would act like it wanted to start, and acctually would start maybe once every 10 times and just die out.

[scttydb411]

are you getting compression? did you do a valve adjustment after installing all the head goodies?

[madwick]

i believe its from obd 2 to obd 1 now i lined up the crank gear to the arrow on the oil pump and the cam gears to eachother. being that they are adjustasble i lined them up at dead center.

the fuel pump is turning on, i hear that, also you smell the gas after the attempt.

i did not do a compression check, how exactly do you do that?

[madwick]

also what is this TDC that you speak of?

[JDMBeau]

TDC = top dead center....did you line the arrows up to where they are pointing each other foir example >< like that, the arrows should face UP on each side ext, and intake. like ^ ^ this. the Lines on the cam gear are what should be facing each other. LMk

[JDMBeau]

and you need a compression tester to check compression. its a little gage, and one end plugs into where your spark plug goes.

[thepolecat]

not fast enough to fire? did you check the battery and the connections to it? I found that sometimes it is the most simple crap that people overlook.

[madwick]

well yeah they are tdc the only thing is that the crankshaft makes 2 full turns before the cams make their first 360 turn. i was wondering if i have them set up on the wrong turn, upside down.

also the battery light is on on the gauge cluster but i was wondering if thats bc i relocated it. also i have a battery charger on the battery with the setting on engine start. do you think that the gauge of the power wire is not thick enough?

[JDMBeau]

what gauge did you use? i would leave the battery on just a steady charge over night and try it in the morning.

[thepolecat]

it might be that. but i have relocated a battery before in a nissan and I didnt run into that problem. I think that you may have a wire not fully connected. recheck your battery and call me in the morning. - the doctor

[madwick]

lol werd, ill check in the morn

[thepolecat]

kewl then

[Z U L8R]

hehe, you said you could smell fuel strongly....did you plug back in the distributor? are you getting spark?

[LS2ner]

Kinda dumb, but did you check to make sure the plug wires are in the correct order and full inserted? You check all your sensors to make sure they are working/properly installed? And you might wanna check your timing belt.

[madwick]

okay now i have more q's

replaced 8ga w/ 4ga for the battery and no difference, the battery light still on.

i have spark and the distributor is in the order that the chilton has in the diagram

timing belt is lined up for timing

no check engine light at all

all plugs plugged in! WTF

[loSiRcity]

u need three things to make an engine work:

1) spark- u say you've got that

2) fuel- on one of the fuel lines there is usually a 12 mm bolt, break it loose (that or one of the fittings) just enough so fuel will leak out turn the key to the on position (not start) and see if any thing comes out, if so u got fuel pressure.

3) compression- being that this was a built motor i doubt u don't have compression


if its fuel related check out the main relay. honda seems to have an issue with making a durable main relay. its job is to turn the fuel pump on. its rare in the winter that they dont work but its worth a shot.

[loSiRcity]

o and if i remember correctly the battery light isnt going to turn off till the motor is spinning fast enough to make the alternator charge the battery. the oil light should turn off but i dont think the battery light does

[madwick]

okay 2 big problems!

i have plenty of gas and anyone who walks into my shop would say that it's getting gas for sure!

and the gauge is not reading any compression! the block is bored to spec and the pistons are nothing major! gs-r block with 82mm pistons!

one big question...

if the timing is off will i get compression?

[madwick]

if the crank turns 2 times every 1 time the cams turn, how do i know which one is the right tdc?

[scttydb411]

if you're turning the crank by hand you will feel the compression building as you get to tdc, but since you're not getting comp via a comp guage then i would check your valve adjustment. it could be out of time, but we had a car a couple weeks ago that someone else had installed cams in and when it was brought to the shop i couldn't get it to start no matter how much fuel i added or took away. we slapped the comp tester in and all cylinders were no compression except one and it had very little. we assumed the valves weren't adjusted and were out of spec since someone installed cams. charles adjusted them and there was compression and she started right up.

[EmminoDaGreat]

im happy people have patience enough to explain things, cause its hard to do that over the intra web wit no picz

[madwick]

man i do appreciate it bc i did have the block done then the head done and they said that i need to do that and that they had left it at stock but might need adjusting and i totaly forgot that until you said that! thanx dude.

now being that i have stage 3 cams and upgraded valves springs and retainers what does the adjustment need to be at?

[Formally...]

You need to adjust the valves anytime you install new cams, mainly with the crower stuff. We have had a few cars that would not start after a cam install because of this. Also, you may want to pour a little oil in each cylinder in case you have washed the rings out. If the motor is new and has never run, all the fuel may have washed the rings. Let us know if this works.

Look at the computer geek figuring out the mechanical problems. We still love you Scotty.

[loSiRcity]

i would thank that u would put it at the stock valve clearance specs but i've never done a cam and seen that happen. iono try it and see what happens. or better yet call crower and find out from the pros, i'll be damned if they wouldn't know

[loSiRcity]

yeah what he said lol

[Vteckidd]

man your asking alot of questions with no answers for having a motor that built. not to be a dick, but you got alot of trick stuff done, you should know all this already.

having said that:

If the car is turning over, i would do the following:

1) DO A VALVE ADJUSTMENT

2) TDC IS TDC, there is no difference with what cams or what crank you have. THe crank still turns the same number of times in relation to the cams. you could slap a 101mm crank in it, it wouldnt matter.

3) If you have spark, and you have fuel, then you need compression. since you stated there is no compression, i would do a VALVE ADJUSTMENT, check the timing belt.

4) I hope you have some sort of Chipped ECU or some form of EMS to start the car, an i hope its not a stock ECU your hoping will crank it.

5) Timing should be at 16 Degrees BTDC once it runs.

6) Helms manual will state what the valve adjustment should be, or 7 on the intake, 8 on the exhaust which is what we do.

good luck

[madwick]

thanx so much guys

see im broke but i went and spent all my credit on new stuff from crower then found out that i need a lot more shit done. i figured buying it, drop it, run it and no probs but ooo was i wrong.

i have a chipped typer ecu and the compreesion seems to be the only thing wrong! once i am able to get the intake and exhaust valves gapped right i should have a prestine machine!

mike i thank you for your help and no your not a dick im an idiot! if im not able to get it fixed i plan on trailering it to you to have it fixed and hondata s300 installed with my laptop to run it.

[Vteckidd]

no problem man, take your time, you have obviously spent some money, dont freak out lol.

just go step by step. Is your ECU chipped for your injectors?

IE if your running 350-450-550+ cc injectors, a stock ecu wont run it , or a chipped ecu wont run it unless that chip has a program for THOSE injectors in it.

Get that valve adjustment done!

good luck

[ranj]

Mr. Kidd your very helpful man. i'm sure many ppl, like madwick really appreciate you.

[ranj]

keep up the good work

[madwick]

well to tell you the truth im one of those guys who bought a project and paid way too much and a year later i spun a bearing and so i bought all new stuff! honestly i couldn't tell you if i have a typer head or a civic sir2 head! the guy said its got a chipped ecu but its got his chip in it from some shop in jacksonville! the injectors are the same as before it blew up and the ecu hasn't changed either so it's matched up still. i have really no idea what to do but i would like to learn and im so far from ppl who know what to do!

[ranj]

This is a sure fire way to learn, not a cheap way, but when you make a mistake with these expensive parts, i'll bet u won't ever make that mistake again lol

[scttydb411]

Look at the computer geek figuring out the mechanical problems. We still love you Scotty.

hahaha...every once in a while i can pull something out of my a$$.

[Turbodude06]

This is a sure fire way to learn, not a cheap way, but when you make a mistake with these expensive parts, i'll bet u won't ever make that mistake again lol

Ain't that the truth LOL..

[madwick]

yeah i sure hope i don't make one

[madwick]

6) Helms manual will state what the valve adjustment should be, or 7 on the intake, 8 on the exhaust which is what we do.

what do you mean by 7 on the intake and 8 on the exhaust? is that the gap or the screw turns?

[green91]

the gap. typically .007 and .008

[madwick]

oh okay nm i found it and green91 told me ! the guy that did my head told me to make sure that they are to spec and i never checked!

will be working on that today and hopefully getting it running!

[Vteckidd]

let us know hat you find. You need a pair of feeller gauges. When you check them, let us know what they were at BEFORE you adjusted them

[madwick]

you cant even fit anything between them!

if i was to load the teggy onto my trailer and bring it by you guys when, how long and how much would a valve adjustment be? i'd like to be there just for knowledge

[Vteckidd]

we usually charge $65 for a valve adjustment, we can look at it on Tues afternoon, or Wed

[Z U L8R]

THE FUEL LINES ARE ON BACKWARDS HAHAHAHA :D

[loSiRcity]

D'oh! lol

[madwick]

i'll be able to borrow that tool to tighten the locking nuts so i'll do it myself this weekend!

[SPOOLIN]

paypal me 100$, i will bring tools and if it CAN crank, it WILL crank.

[hondasniper]

Also, if you change out your valves, you need to do a valve adjustment. Valve tips can differ between companies which will change your clearance and can also change your install height. Shit, anytime you mess with the valvetrain you should do a valve adjustment. Your valves were staying open the whole time. It's good that it wasn't set too far down where it could've hit the valve reliefs. Its good that you have ur car running again. I'd be pissed too if I were to turn a car over and it wouldn't start. Remember to gap your plugs too, unless they are pre-gapped. I'd suggest .040 gap (~1mm). It's pretty neat how much help you can get on one of these sites. Good stuff guys!!! :goodjob: Also, I saw this with someone who came into the shop, some camshafts have too much lift with can result in the retainer hitting the top of the guide/valve stem seals. Check your clearances and check the manufacturer's recommendations to see if the guides have to be machined down a bit. Just for future reference. :D

[madwick]

awesome thanx dudes ill be working on them today!

[The BUCKY]

get that shit fixed son.

[madwick]

okay so i am getting great progress but i can't get the timing right! i think the adjustable cams are tweeked!

[Vteckidd]

put them at 0,0

it should be fine, sometimes, you have to slide the belt on once cam gear (intake side) then get the belt almost on the exhaust cam gear and move it SLIGHTLY with a 14mm to get it to line up

[madwick]

well i did that but i think that the adjustable part on the cam gears are wrong!

[Vteckidd]

what cam gears are they

[madwick]

crower's adjustable... i have the duration and othe specs to the cams but i need to know where to line the cam gears up.

also, how much time/$ is it to tune a car with hondata s200?

[speedminded]

so you have no compression but it's not turning over freely? :thinking:

[madwick]

no its turning with compression now and no contact! the adjustable cams are screwing up my timing! they are at tdc and the sprocket is at the arrow so why wouldn't it turn over?

[speedminded]

no its turning with compression now and no contact! the adjustable cams are screwing up my timing! they are at tdc and the sprocket is at the arrow so why wouldn't it turn over?take a pic of the cam gears! [while they're on the car] :camera: