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speedminded
11-19-2006, 11:05 PM
This is NOT a Matt Campbell thread, this IS A Photographer/media/in-field worker thread. Tracy has done a great job keeping the general crowd safe at the drift events but we need to implement that energy and concern towards the media & in-field as well. Even though they know the risk involved some changes should be made.

I've said this from the beginning, since the very first event before anything ever happened, and i'll say it again...I'm used to seeing spotters. Just like a corner worker that's basically on the track, a photographer should have their own spotter...someone who is not looking through a viewfinder. Someone who is within arms reach to give warning of any potential danger. There's a big differance between being on the other side of a 2+ foot thick concrete wall or shooting through a chain link fence compared to only being protected by cones & random light poles.

The amount of people in the in-field is not the concern. It's the amount of people who's job is specifically and solely to watch others backs that should to be improved. Someone who's job is to replace cones can not do that 100% and neither can someone looking through a camera lense. I'm requesting for each photographer [or maybe two] to have someone fullfil this position. :2cents:

draftnbartnr
11-20-2006, 12:43 AM
I was on the field shooting at post number 4 when the accident happened and I had a volunteer with me as well. I would have to agree on having a spotter. I've shot different sports for years and a company that I worked for gave me some great tips. When you first start shooting sports, just looking through the lense and trying to keep up with the action can be tiresome and make you dizzy at the same time. The company taught me to always keep my eye on the action. So I use this at drift events as well. I tend to put my back against the pole and follow the cars while turning my body around the pole. It can still be scary though. I think the spotter idea is a great one.

Slapshotnerd
11-20-2006, 12:45 AM
I wasn't at the event, and I haven't seen the layout of the track, so I don't know a lot of details of how it happened. But i've shot several drifting events (i'm probably close to 50 now over the past 2 years), so I have a little bit of experience on this...

I always watch the course for a while first, and I can usually tell which corners will be 'safe' and which ones will be more dangerous. I'll shoot in the 'safer' locations, even if they aren't the best shots.

One thing I've always tried to do is sit on the inside of a large radius, so that the car is going in an equal motion away from me. Those who are familiar with the Irwindale course know that the 'carousel' on the infield is one of these types of turns. It makes for better shots, and it's very safe (because of the way that the car is traveling, it's hard to come directly toward the photographer).

Another option, which can be used in conjunction, is to use K rails / water barriers (that are actually filled with water, not just setup) to line photo pits and provide a barrier. they don't need to be connected, just be close enough to prevent an entire car from flying between them.

I've witnessed some pretty scary things at events, including one photographer at one event shooting from directly above a cone with a wide-angle lens on the inside of a turn. But I know that the whole "spotter" thing is easier said than done at most events. Convincing someone to stand around for several hours just to watch out for you is tough, especially if they aren't being compensated.

Nemesis
11-20-2006, 07:40 AM
SCCA utilizes spotters with no problem. I had one for most of the day at my last event I shot. Formula D has areas behind concrete barriers where we can shoot safely and a safe distance away.

My suggestion, either allow a photographer to bring their own spotter ( a friend), or designate a spotter into the volunteer program at Drift Fury.

Brett
11-20-2006, 07:44 AM
Yeah I think having a spotter for them would be the easiest fix. Thats what we were all discussing on Saturday after this accident. I think also having a EMT on site would be a good diea for the next event. I could have sworn they had a Ambulance on site for the first event earlier this year. That was the longest 5-6 Minutes I think we all have ever witnissed. Thats crucial time god forbid something happens again that can be addressed as well.

coolZero
11-20-2006, 07:46 AM
I like the idea of the barrier stated above. Persoanlly I've used the telephoto lens and let it make up the difference in distance. Agree it does not look as good but it is safer.

Nemesis
11-20-2006, 07:48 AM
I like the idea of the barrier stated above. Persoanlly I've used the telephoto lens and let it make up the difference in distance. Agree it does not look as good but it is safer.


Definitely, that's what telephotos are for. You wouldn't see a photographer on the infield of a football game standing near a player for a photo, so why would you see one near a car sliding around at high speeds.

As always though, hindsight is always the better side of a jackass.

ShooterMcGavin
11-20-2006, 08:04 AM
good thread

DrivenMind
11-20-2006, 09:24 AM
Spotter system seems like a damn good idea. What happened to the bright orange or neon green vests we used to wear?

I stand on the outside of the track, and shoot inward until all the run groups have gone a few times and given the drivers a chance to warm up. Also I try to keep my eye on the closest car approaching, which gets to be hard if there's more than one on track. I used to occasionally stand on the light poles and shoot one handed as the car went around the corner.

I'm always getting as close to the cars as I can because I can't afford a telephoto lens yet. That kind leaves me with a limited frame to shoot with as I can't take a picture of a car until it's within 5-15 feet of me.

Also... I don't know if this helps, but if I'm planning on getting close to the edge, as a car approaches I try to make some sort of contact with the driver (usually by pointing at them), so he knows exactly where I'm standing.

speedminded
11-20-2006, 09:54 AM
I wasn't at the event, and I haven't seen the layout of the track, so I don't know a lot of details of how it happened. But i've shot several drifting events (i'm probably close to 50 now over the past 2 years), so I have a little bit of experience on this...

I always watch the course for a while first, and I can usually tell which corners will be 'safe' and which ones will be more dangerous. I'll shoot in the 'safer' locations, even if they aren't the best shots.

One thing I've always tried to do is sit on the inside of a large radius, so that the car is going in an equal motion away from me. Those who are familiar with the Irwindale course know that the 'carousel' on the infield is one of these types of turns. It makes for better shots, and it's very safe (because of the way that the car is traveling, it's hard to come directly toward the photographer).

Another option, which can be used in conjunction, is to use K rails / water barriers (that are actually filled with water, not just setup) to line photo pits and provide a barrier. they don't need to be connected, just be close enough to prevent an entire car from flying between them.

I've witnessed some pretty scary things at events, including one photographer at one event shooting from directly above a cone with a wide-angle lens on the inside of a turn. But I know that the whole "spotter" thing is easier said than done at most events. Convincing someone to stand around for several hours just to watch out for you is tough, especially if they aren't being compensated.Thanks for posting, I know matt will want to see some of your work soon.

The course is set up similiar to autocross with only cones designating the track itself, there are no walls or barriers and in this case I honestly think it would be more dangerous if there were. If the complex was a permanent setup then permanant barries could be in place but since that's not possible a flying temporary barrier may be just be as dangerous as a car.

The first thing is drivers have to understand the rules and use good judgement and common sense. Second is have spotters for people out there. That would solve any future problems short of a 747 trying to land in the parking lot.

ShooterMcGavin
11-20-2006, 10:05 AM
That would solve any future problems short of a 747 trying to land in the parking lot.
well turner field IS pretty close to the airport.....:D

HiPSI
11-20-2006, 02:47 PM
The first thing is drivers have to understand the rules and use good judgement and common sense.

none of the drivers were breaking rules or using poor judgement from what i saw. these are amateur events and are conducted as such. there just needs to be more concern on who is where on the course as far as media and workers are concerned. i had more than one instance where i was in the middle of a run and had a cone shagger running across the course in front of me well within range of hitting them if anything had gone bad.

libelle
11-20-2006, 06:13 PM
i was autoxing saturday and watching the drifting in the morning and wanted to comment in regard to worker safety.
autocrossers get out of course all the time. if one were to get out of track, his next move is to get back inside the cones to avoid a DNF.
but in the top lot, i saw vehicles leave the course and do a number of donuts in an attempt to regain course and overshoot into another. i dont know much about the drift rules but i'm guessing its the same, that cones are a penalty.
In the event that a vehicle leaves the designated course, that person should stop motion and return within the cones before continuing any further loose traction manuvers.
it doesnt matter if this was the case or not in which matt was injured, i'm just stating the obvious that when a ton of metal leaves where its expected, no one is safe, not even a spotter

in reply to the above comment about a cone being run in front of a car, its usually because there wasnt enough time between cars to set the cone up. also i find myself watching one vehicle in my area of cones while another is coming up behind. first off, it might not be a good place to stand but more importantly, its just not possible to be completely aware of two vehicles on course in a single area. spread runs out.

AtlE30
11-20-2006, 11:23 PM
Well you've got to keep in mind the differences between autocross and drifting. Where you guys are trying to go as fast as possible, within the limits of your car, the drifters are trying to deliberately exceed the cornering capeablities of their cars. What that ends up meaning, is when one of you guys leaves course, you may still be somewhat in control of your car; whereas the drifter whos loss control was already pushing as hard as the car was willing to go, so when they loose it, they can loose it big time.

I've done 180 degree spins at over 50 miles an hour, when going into the first corner just a little too hot.

And at our events the cones don't count for anything until the final rounds.

BTW: I saw some of you guys while I was there and you kids were tearing it up. That shifter kart was fuckin crazy.

-Estis Fatuus

Slapshotnerd
11-21-2006, 04:14 AM
i saw some videos of the course on youtube, and there were definately some corners that were unsafe. It seems like the safest corner was the inside of the first corner, since the cars have so much speed and are going away from the center. I don't know which corner the accident happened, but it seemed like there were several where people were definately too close. It looked like there were people 'between' the S curves, and that would definately be a very dangerous spot (and i could see how someone could get hit).

Again, spotters are a good idea, but who wants to be a spotter? standing out in the middle of an asphalt surface for hours at a time, for no money, just to yell "look out" for some photographer guy? you definately would have to pay me or any of my friends to do that (the ones who are willing to do it for free are the ones i wouldn't trust to look out for me, IE the 'fan boys' who would be too busy taking camera phone pictures to truely watch out for me).

The EMT on site is definately a good rule. In fact, at a recent event, I commented to a friend about how I was shocked there wasn't an ambulance on site. Seems to be almost the standard for even most major sporting events.

Doppelgänger
11-21-2006, 07:31 AM
From a drivers point-of-view... i think the way they send cars out on the track should be slowed down. Yes, i know it makes time go by slower, but that would be the BEST thing to do for driver-pedestrian safety. This way, it would be impossable for a person to be distracted by one car as another one is on the course.

Also, these courses are designed with runoff areas on the outside of the turns to prevent cars from striking stationary objects (poles), only CONE CHASERS should be allowed in thses areas as they get in and get out quickly.

Just my $.02

Doppelgänger
11-21-2006, 07:33 AM
Again, spotters are a good idea, but who wants to be a spotter? standing out in the middle of an asphalt surface for hours at a time, for no money, just to yell "look out" for some photographer guy? you definately would have to pay me or any of my friends to do that (the ones who are willing to do it for free are the ones i wouldn't trust to look out for me, IE the 'fan boys' who would be too busy taking camera phone pictures to truely watch out for me).


A lot fo the people who do this are people who have been to MANY events and volunteer willingly because they know how it works. I think i would be a good idea that all track spotters/cone chasers are people who HAVE BEEN on a green track before.

speedminded
11-21-2006, 08:55 AM
Again, spotters are a good idea, but who wants to be a spotter? standing out in the middle of an asphalt surface for hours at a time, for no money, just to yell "look out" for some photographer guy? you definately would have to pay me or any of my friends to do that (the ones who are willing to do it for free are the ones i wouldn't trust to look out for me, IE the 'fan boys' who would be too busy taking camera phone pictures to truely watch out for me).Whether you're standing on the track or standing on the curb along side you're still just standing there....there is no seating so not like it is really any differant. Personally I'd much rather be out there in the middle and I would volunteer to be the or a Safety Steward. I just have an SCCA crew license.

SeanDean
11-21-2006, 01:00 PM
I dont think slowing down the pace is a real solution, but it would alleviate the major issue here which I think is people having to watch for multiple cars. I think the better solution is to have concrete barrier circles for photographers to be inside of. If it's hard to get a good angle, there can be a 4-5ft platform inside the barriers to get a higher angle and use a telephoto lens.

It's a compromise, but the concrete is really a necessity, and from a drivers standpoint, no one wants to slow the events down even more. Getting decent seat time is hard enough already.

As far as EMT's go. Well there were quite a few EMT's at the event, including me, but it is always better to have a fully equipped unit on standby. Without proper equipment, EMT's are very limited in what we can do.

Most ambulance companies have trucks roaming around waiting for calls and it's possible to arrange for a truck or even 2 to set their staging area at the track so they can run their regular calls, yet also be ready to respond should something happen on the course.

Doppelgänger
11-21-2006, 05:19 PM
the only thing i see with the concrete barriers is they do move. IE NOPI 2004 when a 240 smacked one at about 4-50mph and it knocked it quite a few feet. It was a "smaller" berrier, nothing like a divider wall... but appearantly they thought it was safe enough. Yeah, getting a "bigger" barrier would be correct, but then theres the cost of renting them, moving them, renting equipment to move them, renting the lot for an extra day to come up with a course and place barriers (dont think theres enough time to do it in the morning of the event). It would be easier to regulate photographer areas in the end...

speedminded
11-21-2006, 06:37 PM
the only thing i see with the concrete barriers is they do move. IE NOPI 2004 when a 240 smacked one at about 4-50mph and it knocked it quite a few feet. It was a "smaller" berrier, nothing like a divider wall... but appearantly they thought it was safe enough. Yeah, getting a "bigger" barrier would be correct, but then theres the cost of renting them, moving them, renting equipment to move them, renting the lot for an extra day to come up with a course and place barriers (dont think theres enough time to do it in the morning of the event). It would be easier to regulate photographer areas in the end...Plus the safety issue of a driver hitting a wall. That's why it's done in a open lot...this isn't a professional series: some pro's, near pro's, novices, amateurs, etc...either way people do go off the track, and like you said temporary barriers do move, so i think at this level more injury would be caused from having the barriers in place.

DrivenMind
11-22-2006, 11:13 PM
Yea, Mike it went more than a few feet. I was standing a few feet from it when it got hit. It flew through the temporary fence and landed on some people who were standing outside, and hadn't even bought tickets yet.http://forums.importatlanta.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=75945&stc=1

mumbles
11-22-2006, 11:53 PM
first of all these events are put together for amateurs to get experience in a competitve environment for a marginal cost. some of thing you are guys are saying make sense but you need to look at it from this stand point. concrete & water barriers move and also cost money. in order to keep these events affordable we have to keep costs down. With every event we try to keep everybody's interests and safety in mind. any volunteer or photographer is required to wear the bright yellow or orange vest. This also why paying attention in the drivers meeting is very important, it was stated in the meeting that if you go off course take your foot off the gas and wait until you are back on course to continue.the spoters is a good idea it is just hard to get as many vounteers for these events that we need. finding additional ones would be hard. i believe that all precautions were taken and this is just labled as an unfortunate accident and that ever precaution will still be taken to protect everyones safety. there are a lot of things that could change we could barrier up the whole course, fence in the lot, but this would require a more expsensive driver entry fee, well over $100 and a minimum of $25 per spectator. this is just my :2cents: from the outside looking in. i am also just volunteer like everyone else that is there helping. i am NOT an event cordinator. just so the record is straight

speedminded
11-23-2006, 12:12 AM
Yea, Mike it went more than a few feet. I was standing a few feet from it when it got hit. It flew through the temporary fence and landed on some people who were standing outside, and hadn't even bought tickets yet. http://forums.importatlanta.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=75945&stc=1

first of all these events are put together for amateurs to get experience in a competitve environment for a marginal cost. some of thing you are guys are saying make sense but you need to look at it from this stand point. concrete & water barriers move and also cost money. in oder to keep these events affordable we have to keep costs down. With every event we try to keep everybody's interests and safety in mind. any volunteer or photographer is required to were the bright yellow or orange vest. This also why paying attention in the drivers meeting is very important, it was stated in the meeting that if you go off course take you foot of the gas and wait until you are back on course to continue.the spoters is a good idea it is just hard to get as many vounteers for these events that we need. finding aditional ones would make it hard. i believe that all precautions were taken and this is just labled as an unfortunate accident and that ever precaution will still be taken to protect everyones safety. there are a lot of things that could change we could barrier up the whole course, fence in the lot, but this would require a more expsensive driver entry fee well over $100 and a minimum of $25 per spectator. this is just my :2cents: from the outside looking in.That's exactly why i've said since the beginning barriers are not an alternative. Unless they have rebar going deep into the ground then they will move.

From what I understand this subject will no longer be an issue anyways.

mumbles
11-23-2006, 12:15 AM
That's exactly why i've said since the beginning barriers are not an alternative. Unless they have rebar going deep into the ground then they will move.

From what I understand this subject will no longer be an issue anyways.

yeah i'm hopeing for the same result..

draftnbartnr
11-23-2006, 12:43 AM
In order to keep these local events at a reasonable price, I think spotters are the best option, not concrete barriers. I have plenty of friends that would spot for free just to be able to be part of the action.

Doppelgänger
11-23-2006, 09:19 AM
Yea, Mike it went more than a few feet. I was standing a few feet from it when it got hit. It flew through the temporary fence and landed on some people who were standing outside, and hadn't even bought tickets yet.http://forums.importatlanta.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=75945&stc=1
yeah, i remember..trust me.. i was right next to the 240 when it happened :(