Question about Muslims (Keep Civil Or Will Be Deleted)

[Jaimecbr900]

This topic is somewhere in between Politics and Religion, so I will post it here and let a moderator move it to the forum he/she sees fit.

I will lead off by saying that I am not the most versed person when it comes to the religion of Islam, so please do not take offense to this as a shot at the religion per se. It's more about people and mentality than directly about the religion. I am just wanting to know some things, and what better way to find out than to ask, right?

My question is:

Why is a religion that is said to be peaceful not stand up against violence that is perpetrated by people claiming to be of that religion?

More specifically, why is it that we see public outcry from Muslims all over the world, even death threats, over a caricature and over some words said by the Pope but we don't see massive protests or outcry over bombings/beheadings/killing all done while clearly claiming to be doing so as an act of religious faith?

I know that was a long ass sentence, but I couldn't break it up.

This is just a simple conversation starter and it's not meant to give ANYONE an opportunity to insult or bash Muslims. So please, don't make this into an US vs THEM type of debate. I have friends that are Muslim, some are even in IA, so don't make this an insult fest or I'll ask for it to be closed.

Anyone?

[The Yousef]

This topic is somewhere in between Politics and Religion, so I will post it here and let a moderator move it to the forum he/she sees fit.

I will lead off by saying that I am not the most versed person when it comes to the religion of Islam, so please do not take offense to this as a shot at the religion per se. It's more about people and mentality than directly about the religion. I am just wanting to know some things, and what better way to find out than to ask, right?

My question is:

Why is a religion that is said to be peaceful not stand up against violence that is perpetrated by people claiming to be of that religion?

More specifically, why is it that we see public outcry from Muslims all over the world, even death threats, over a caricature and over some words said by the Pope but we don't see massive protests or outcry over bombings/beheadings/killing all done while clearly claiming to be doing so as an act of religious faith?

I know that was a long ass sentence, but I couldn't break it up.

This is just a simple conversation starter and it's not meant to give ANYONE an opportunity to insult or bash Muslims. So please, don't make this into an US vs THEM type of debate. I have friends that are Muslim, some are even in IA, so don't make this an insult fest or I'll ask for it to be closed.

Anyone?

damn...i'm in class right now...i'll post up my opinion when i get home and have chance to ponder the above statement...

[Brett]

Jamie I have often wondered this myself. I brought this up when we all discussed this issue when the beheadings started, I dont understand how the Muslin world does not stand up against these few who use the faith as a excuse to do what they do and say its done in the word of Islam..... Maybe if the rest of the Peaceful Muslim/Islamic world would stand up, Protest, etc they wouldnt feel they have the backing and acceptance of the faith and thier god.

[Jaimecbr900]

I know that in certain parts of the world for someone to publicly denounce certain things would certainly mean you'd be damn near stoned to death, so I totally understand the represion aspect and possibility. That may be an answer.

I also know that some people may feel like there's not much their opinion would do against this kind of violence. That too may be an answer.

I just would like to get some more insight as to why this is so one-sided in my mind.

There has to be a reason behind it.

[Hulud]

man move this to the religion section, because there are gonna be some bullshit answers in the WL

[Jaimecbr900]

man move this to the religion section, because there are gonna be some bullshit answers in the WL

I thought that's where it probably belongs, but I wanted to get different kinds of inputs.

You may be right though. Let's see how it goes.

[Brett]

I also know that some people may feel like there's not much their opinion would do against this kind of violence. That too may be an answer.

I just would like to get some more insight as to why this is so one-sided in my mind.

There has to be a reason behind it.

true, But I think if terror cells who do these acts in the name of Islam felt the the faith does not back them, it would make an impact, because in thier eyes, they feel thier god will bring them to heaven for what they are doing and to me if the people of the islamic faith would stand up and make an outcry to how this is not what Islam is and the faith is not a backer of thier actions, they (The terrorists) wouldnt be so confient in what they do and feel its in the name of thier religion.

I do believe if when the First beheading happened, If the Islamic nations stood up and said "That is not acceptable, or even the terror attacks that go on are not acceptabe" they would not be able to attack in the name of what they believe is right, which in thier heads totally changes things.

Anyone who takes the time to understand the Muslim faith knows the teachings of Islam is a peaceful religion and do not back terrorism or any injustice that has been going on, But at the same time the people need to let terrorists know, Its not acceptable and its not what Islam preaches.

[LiL PaKi]

My question is:

Why is a religion that is said to be peaceful not stand up against violence that is perpetrated by people claiming to be of that religion?

More specifically, why is it that we see public outcry from Muslims all over the world, even death threats, over a caricature and over some words said by the Pope but we don't see massive protests or outcry over bombings/beheadings/killing all done while clearly claiming to be doing so as an act of religious faith?

I know that was a long ass sentence, but I couldn't break it up.

This is just a simple conversation starter and it's not meant to give ANYONE an opportunity to insult or bash Muslims. So please, don't make this into an US vs THEM type of debate. I have friends that are Muslim, some are even in IA, so don't make this an insult fest or I'll ask for it to be closed.

Anyone?

"In today's turbulent world, Islam is often on the front page - mostly for the wrong reasons. Islam means peace; yet some have taken this peaceful way of life and hijacked it into a violent way, and distorted their ideology for personal and political gains. Seeing a faith through explosive world events, and judging it by the actions of a misguided few, is the primary reasons why Islam is often misunderstood.

Islam is sometimes, intentionally misrepresented. Some politicians, religious leaders and media have found an ideal scapegoat in Islam. By associating Islam with the inhumane acts of a handful, they have been successful in driving larger numbers of people to vote for them; to donate towards their ministries; and to read their newspapers, watch their television programs and listen to their radio shows.

However, with an increasing number of Muslims speaking out against this falsehood; the true and peaceful nature of Islam is becoming more evident. Muslims are standing up against terrorism, against the persecution and killing of innocent people, and against those who perpetrate such injustice in the name of any faith.

The very word "Islam" means peace. A fifth of the world's population is reclaiming this peace as their chosen way of life." http://www.discoverislam.com/poster.asp?poster=DIP2004_24&page=1 (http://www.discoverislam.com/poster.asp?poster=DIP2004_24&page=1)

i'll further discuss this once I get home....

[Hulud]

Jamie I have often wondered this myself. I brought this up when we all discussed this issue when the beheadings started, I dont understand how the Muslin world does not stand up against these few who use the faith as a excuse to do what they do and say its done in the word of Islam..... Maybe if the rest of the Peaceful Muslim/Islamic world would stand up, Protest, etc they wouldnt feel they have the backing and acceptance of the faith and thier god.
i have seen some things of people denouncing the violence, its not just on the front page of the paper. my guess is because the news people feel the american people want a group to claim as "the bad guys" rather than say its a bunch of different groups.

also i think people over in the mid east arent going to stand up and say something, because they will be killed. would you stand up and say something like that in the mid east? i dont think most of us would. :2cents:

[LiL PaKi]

man move this to the religion section, because there are gonna be some bullshit answers in the WL

i concure...

[Hulud]

I thought that's where it probably belongs, but I wanted to get different kinds of inputs.

You may be right though. Let's see how it goes.
i agree with your idea of more inputs, but i will be VERY surprised if it stays civil, being that its the whoreslounge

[SLOWLYbtngU]

In all honesty I think it depends on the kind of Muslims and up bringing...The followers of the Islamic faith in America at times get upset because people assume that they are as fanatical or extreme as those that make the news...

About the out cry..Well in my opinon u have to see something wrong to cry out, but if u are raised to believe a certain thing throughout your life then why would that be considered wrong?

I am not saying that I believe that every single one of the beliefs that other religons, not just Islam, hold are good and great but I guess I just dont see it as any ONE particular person or group of people can distinguish what is right and wrong.

[Brett]

i have seen some things of people denouncing the violence, its not just on the front page of the paper. my guess is because the news people feel the american people want a group to claim as "the bad guys" rather than say its a bunch of different groups.

also i think people over in the mid east arent going to stand up and say something, because they will be killed. would you stand up and say something like that in the mid east? i dont think most of us would. :2cents:

But see, they are getting killed now over in IRAQ anyways, These extremeists are killing muslims now, So why as a group not stand up to not only to stop terrorism against us, but on thier OWN PEOPLE? All it takes is to show that Muslims will not back it, and make clear Islam teaches peace, and thier sins will not be met by god or accepted.

[Jaimecbr900]

"In today's turbulent world, Islam is often on the front page - mostly for the wrong reasons. Islam means peace; yet some have taken this peaceful way of life and hijacked it into a violent way, and distorted their ideology for personal and political gains. Seeing a faith through explosive world events, and judging it by the actions of a misguided few, is the primary reasons why Islam is often misunderstood.

This is exactly why I posted this question.


Islam is sometimes, intentionally misrepresented. Some politicians, religious leaders and media have found an ideal scapegoat in Islam. By associating Islam with the inhumane acts of a handful, they have been successful in driving larger numbers of people to vote for them; to donate towards their ministries; and to read their newspapers, watch their television programs and listen to their radio shows.

That was part of what I was getting to in my question; Wouldn't a public outcry against terrorism from the true Muslims go a long way towards changing this perception?


However, with an increasing number of Muslims speaking out against this falsehood; the true and peaceful nature of Islam is becoming more evident. Muslims are standing up against terrorism, against the persecution and killing of innocent people, and against those who perpetrate such injustice in the name of any faith.

Where?



[b]i'll further discuss this once I get home....

Please do. I'm looking for input such as this.

[Hulud]

But see, they are getting killed now over in IRAQ anyways, These extremeists are killing muslims now, So why as a group not stand up to not only to stop terrorism against us, but on thier OWN PEOPLE? All it takes is to show that Muslims will not back it, and make clear Islam teaches peace, and thier sins will not be met by god or accepted.
easier said than done, when you dont know whos good and whos bad in a country with no control you dont know who to trust. so if you dont know who to trust, your not going to speak your mind, cause yuo will get killed.

also you gotta remember they dont have the govt to protect them and if they say something that pisses people off, you will have people wanting to kill you

[4dmin]

More specifically, why is it that we see public outcry from Muslims all over the world, even death threats, over a caricature and over some words said by the Pope but we don't see massive protests or outcry over bombings/beheadings/killing all done while clearly claiming to be doing so as an act of religious faith?

i don't know why people act surprised about muslims reactions i guess its b/c it is more socially acceptable to be apart of religions that burns people on crosses and bombs abortion clinics... but hey who am i to judge ;)

[SLOWLYbtngU]

But see, they are getting killed now over in IRAQ anyways, These extremeists are killing muslims now, So why as a group not stand up to not only to stop terrorism against us, but on thier OWN PEOPLE? All it takes is to show that Muslims will not back it, and make clear Islam teaches peace, and thier sins will not be met by god or accepted.

NOt every group of people in this worls know how to come together...Amongst a community of thousands there are jsut as many personalities...Sure here in America we have the tendancy to unite...But think about it, normally something bad to extreme measures has to happen..

Besides once again, sure they cry and suffer but at the same time who is to say that these are not things that they have to endure in order to get to where they want to be in their religion??? Think about it in Christianity I am supposed to die to myself and therefore let God guide me...How do u know it isnt the same with them?

[SLOWLYbtngU]

easier said than done, when you dont know whos good and whos bad in a country with no control you dont know who to trust. so if you dont know who to trust, your not going to speak your mind, cause yuo will get killed.

also you gotta remember they dont have the govt to protect them and if they say something that pisses people off, you will have people wanting to kill you

Exactly, You do not know who is really on your side...So it is easier to stay out of it and jsut mind ur own business and pray that you are not the target of one of the crimes...

[Jaimecbr900]

i have seen some things of people denouncing the violence, its not just on the front page of the paper. my guess is because the news people feel the american people want a group to claim as "the bad guys" rather than say its a bunch of different groups.

Very true. Certain news sells more papers. Again, that is one of the options that I've thought about, but I've just always thought it had to be deeper than that.



also i think people over in the mid east arent going to stand up and say something, because they will be killed. would you stand up and say something like that in the mid east? i dont think most of us would. :2cents:

Again, as I previously mentioned, I know persecution is no joking matter in certain parts of the world BUT........

IF you are truly a "peaceful" religion, why would you kill someone for merely not going along with your agenda?

Also, there are Muslims all over the world, not just the Middle East or third world countries. There are Muslims right here in Atlanta. Is not like those people would be in direct jeopardy of being tortured for standing up and denouncing terrorism, right?

[4dmin]

But see, they are getting killed now over in IRAQ anyways, These extremeists are killing muslims now, So why as a group not stand up to not only to stop terrorism against us, but on thier OWN PEOPLE? All it takes is to show that Muslims will not back it, and make clear Islam teaches peace, and thier sins will not be met by god or accepted.

lol Brett how come you and the rest of the Bush nazi's sound like tree hugging hippies during discussion such as this... WAR is WAR there are no rules.... we waged war on them we shall reap the reward of such actions. shit we have more gun related deaths in our country then any other. turn on the news you will hear about atleast 1 rape, 1 murder, 1 kidnapping every night. wake up we have the same thing outside our doors being commited by White/Black suburban commandos; just our killers aren't motivated by religion ;)

[Jaimecbr900]

i don't know why people act surprised about muslims reactions i guess its b/c it is more socially acceptable to be apart of religions that burns people on crosses and bombs abortion clinics... but hey who am i to judge ;)

But the big difference here to what you're eluding is that one thing happened HUNDREDS of years ago, and the other WAS denounced by the "Christian" faith very loudly indeed.

[4dmin]

But the big difference here to what you're eluding is that one thing happened HUNDREDS of years ago, and the other WAS denounced by the "Christian" faith very loudly indeed.

time frame and future denoucement doesn't make it any more right... so what your saying is if muslims say the terrorist acts were wrong 100 years from now that its fine to forget. sorry not buying it.

[Brett]

lol Brett how come you and the rest of the Bush nazi's sound like tree hugging hippies during discussion such as this... WAR is WAR there are no rules.... we waged war on them we shall reap the reward of such actions. shit we have more gun related deaths in our country then any other. turn on the news you will hear about atleast 1 rape, 1 murder, 1 kidnapping every night. wake up we have the same thing outside our doors being commited by White/Black suburban commandos; just our killers aren't motivated by religion ;)

Dude, how does this have to do with Bush or my support of Bush? Im just saying in General I am with Jamie, that I dont understand why a religion does not stand up for what is going on in parts of the world and denounce the violence, etc. How is that tree hugging?

[Jaimecbr900]

lol Brett how come you and the rest of the Bush nazi's sound like tree hugging hippies during discussion such as this... WAR is WAR there are no rules.... we waged war on them we shall reap the reward of such actions. shit we have more gun related deaths in our country then any other. turn on the news you will hear about atleast 1 rape, 1 murder, 1 kidnapping every night. wake up we have the same thing outside our doors being commited by White/Black suburban commandos; just our killers aren't motivated by religion ;)

Death may indeed be Death, but when you MURDER someone while shouting out that you are doing so for your FAITH, there is a difference.

How many of those "urban commandos" kill in the name of their God?

That's the difference.

[Brett]

Death may indeed be Death, but when you MURDER someone while shouting out that you are doing so for your FAITH, there is a difference.

How many of those "urban commandos" kill in the name of their God?

That's the difference.

THANK YOU!!! Thats what I am saying, We all know Paul that in war thier are no rules, But when killing people in terror attacks here or abroad in the name of Allah is bullshit, Im sorry if you dont agree, and I truley believe if a religion stood up and said "NO MORE" it might (MIGHT) make a difference, but when no one says anything, they feel they have the backing of the muslim world and that its okay to MURDER in the name if Islam.

[Jaimecbr900]

time frame and future denoucement doesn't make it any more right... so what your saying is if muslims say the terrorist acts were wrong 100 years from now that its fine to forget. sorry not buying it.

What makes you think that Christians didn't denounce witch hunts back when they occured?

What about the almost instant denouncement of abortion clinic bombings? I believe even the Pope got involved in that one if memory serves me correct.

I'm 1000% sure that if there was some type of organized outcry from the Muslim community just about anywhere in the free world, it would show up on the news. I'm not talking about speaking to a single person for a news bleep. I'm talking about the type of organized outcry such as the one over the caricature or the Pope speaking the other day. THAT made the news. Why wouldn't someone standing up and saying "hey, these people are using MY PEACEFUL and RIGHTEOUS RELIGION to hide behind THEIR OWN agenda and I don't like it....."

[4dmin]

Death may indeed be Death, but when you MURDER someone while shouting out that you are doing so for your FAITH, there is a difference.

How many of those "urban commandos" kill in the name of their God?

That's the difference.

movtives of the insane/misunderstood do not matter... if i killed you in the name of the devil would it make it any different if i just killed you. your still dead just b/c i put a iconic motive to it doesn't say anything.

the problem w/ this country is we have shot ourself in the foot... we put our selves in this situation now are are back pedaling out of it... countries like US, UK, have pushed for WAR and when WAR is brought to us we whine about it. just like the pope opening his mouth about muslims... that has to be the dumbest thing in the world to discuss... hey let me discuss politics in the middle of a religious war... why don't you just give them a nuke and key to your house.

[Brett]

Why wouldn't someone standing up and saying "hey, these people are using MY PEACEFUL and RIGHTEOUS RELIGION to hide behind THEIR OWN agenda and I don't like it....."

Which in turn would take away the very thing terrorists truley believe they are fighting for.

[4dmin]

What makes you think that Christians didn't denounce witch hunts back when they occured?

What about the almost instant denouncement of abortion clinic bombings? I believe even the Pope got involved in that one if memory serves me correct.

I'm 1000% sure that if there was some type of organized outcry from the Muslim community just about anywhere in the free world, it would show up on the news. I'm not talking about speaking to a single person for a news bleep. I'm talking about the type of organized outcry such as the one over the caricature or the Pope speaking the other day. THAT made the news. Why wouldn't someone standing up and saying "hey, these people are using MY PEACEFUL and RIGHTEOUS RELIGION to hide behind THEIR OWN agenda and I don't like it....."


bahhhhhhh denoucement they churches designed witch hunts so who are the people denoucing... the ones burning?

as for abortion clinics you name the pope... the same guy who stood by while known sex offenders are running his churches. sounds like a credible guy.

do you guys honestly think any MUSLIM group is going to speak out... hello their mosque are being watched already w/ a close eye by our gov'ts and they already have a civil war going on between their people. why would you speak out tell me what will it gain you?

[LiL PaKi]

easier said than done, when you dont know whos good and whos bad in a country with no control you dont know who to trust. so if you dont know who to trust, your not going to speak your mind, cause yuo will get killed.

also you gotta remember they dont have the govt to protect them and if they say something that pisses people off, you will have people wanting to kill you


People claim they are Muslim and doing it for Islam.. i'm no one to judge, i'll leave that to God...

However, killing innocent people isn't Islamic nor acceptable in any religion... yes, it's there and how are u to stop people you can't find? (ie. Osama bin Laden and the taliban)

If the people try to fight back they may get shot. We are talking about poor countries and how they may not be ready to lose their families but they are doing it for Islam and to protect the name and God williingly they will be accepted into paradise.

This type of war/fight back would be considered Jihad, Jihad may reflect the war aspects in Islam. Jihad is as presented in war in the name of justice or Islam, to deter an aggressor, for self defense, and/or to establish justice and freedom to practice religion, would the Quran and any of the other scriptures implies the striving of spiritual good. This Jihad particularly involves change in one's self and mentality. It may concern the sacrifice of material property, social class and even emotional comfort solely for the salvation and worship of God Alone.

The day will come when every soul will serve as its own advocate, and every soul will be paid fully for whatever it had done, without the least injustice." (16:111).
" The day will come when each soul will find all the good works it had done brought forth. As for the evil works, it will wish that they were far, far removed. GOD alerts you that you shall reverence Him alone. GOD is Compassionate towards the people. " (3:30).

"You shall strive for the cause of GOD as you should strive for His cause. " (22:78).
In Brief; the meaning the media gives to this word (Jihad) is false. This word does not mean a holy war, for there is nothing holy about a war in Islam. There are times when war is tolerated, permitted and even, in some case, to a point accepted, but never considered holy. Islam is a religion of peace, no matter what certain media or deranged individuals say or claim.

[Dragonfly5338]

My take on it is, I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands of muslims in the middle east who don't agree with the extremists. However, if the situation was reversed and you were put in the position that if you publicly stated you didn't agree with what was happening, you'd be putting your children's or family's lives in danger?

If they don't care about beheading innocent american civilians, why would they care about beheading an innocent muslim who spoke his mind about what they were doing?

The key word is TERRORIST here, not muslim. These people are NOT following the muslim faith, but they have power over people who are true muslims. How do they get this power? Fear, oppression and threats. I sure as heck wouldn't stand up (key word here is publicly) and say our government is wrong if two days later my child or myself could end up dead.

We've grown up in a world where we've been taught to question authority, and to not take things at face value. Our philosophy would be MUCH different if we weren't taught that, hence the many muslims brought up in America who actively voice opposition to the acts the extremists are commiting in the name of their religion. You notice most of the people doing this are Muslim-americans? Because they're not scared.

Y'all can talk all you like about how us as Americans would look at muslims in a better light if they would stand up and protest what's happening, but until you're in that situation you have no room to talk, especially from your comfy chair in your nice office, knowing your wife and children are safe at home.

[LiL PaKi]

The key word is TERRORIST here, not muslim. These people are NOT following the muslim faith, but they have power over people who are true muslims. .

:goodjob:

[4dmin]

My take on it is, I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands of muslims in the middle east who don't agree with the extremists. However, if the situation was reversed and you were put in the position that if you publicly stated you didn't agree with what was happening, you'd be putting your children's or family's lives in danger?

If they don't care about beheading innocent american civilians, why would they care about beheading an innocent muslim who spoke his mind about what they were doing?

The key word is TERRORIST here, not muslim. These people are NOT following the muslim faith, but they have power over people who are true muslims. How do they get this power? Fear, oppression and threats. I sure as heck wouldn't stand up (key word here is publicly) and say our government is wrong if two days later my child or myself could end up dead.

We've grown up in a world where we've been taught to question authority, and to not take things at face value. Our philosophy would be MUCH different if we weren't taught that, hence the many muslims brought up in America who actively voice opposition to the acts the extremists are commiting in the name of their religion. You notice most of the people doing this are Muslim-americans? Because they're not scared.

Y'all can talk all you like about how us as Americans would look at muslims in a better light if they would stand up and protest what's happening, but until you're in that situation you have no room to talk, especially from your comfy chair in your nice office, knowing your wife and children are safe at home.

dayum straight FUCK OPRAH val for president :goodjob:

[LiL PaKi]

well time to finish studying i'll respond later...

[LiL PaKi]

dayum straight FUCK OPRAH val for president :goodjob:

i second that.. hehe

[RandomGuy]

but when no one says anything, they feel they have the backing of the muslim world and that its okay to MURDER in the name if Islam.
hrm... so no one says anything... no one ever says "islam is a religion of peace"

Hrm, so its safe to conclude that we're terrorists since we're not fulfilling our "assigned religious duty" to speak out against negative media representation towards Islam? Kind of reminds me of Bush's: "If you're not with us, you're one of them" shit. If only we were like christians, with no sinful interpreters, no people who do immoral things in the name of god...

come to my mosque on friday .... listen to 1 speech.
thats all.

Anyways the ignorance in this thread is offensive. Especially from someone like Jamiecbr. [/serious RG]

[RandomGuy]

The key word is TERRORIST here, not Muslim.

hrm i thought that was synonymous :rolleyes:

[HvyArms]

I wish I could respond to this, but Im working.

[Hulud]

IF you are truly a "peaceful" religion, why would you kill someone for merely not going along with your agenda?

Also, there are Muslims all over the world, not just the Middle East or third world countries. There are Muslims right here in Atlanta. Is not like those people would be in direct jeopardy of being tortured for standing up and denouncing terrorism, right?
i dont know man, maybe your just not looking for them speaking out

[{X}Echo419]

The key word is TERRORIST here, not muslim. These people are NOT following the muslim faith, but they have power over people who are true muslims. How do they get this power? Fear, oppression and threats. I sure as heck wouldn't stand up (key word here is publicly) and say our government is wrong if two days later my child or myself could end up dead.




dayum straight FUCK OPRAH val for president :goodjob:

why don't you(or anyone else for that matter) accept the so called "Christians" bombing abortion clinic the same way?

side: you can't excuse someone's bad behavior with someone elses bad behavior? :2cents:

[Dragonfly5338]

hrm i thought that was synonymous

That's the mindset of our country, and the problem.

People are more than willing to split the two when it applies to THEIR religion (aka, David Coresh - "Oh he's a whacko, not a true christian" or the abortion bombers - "They're Christian EXTREMISTS, not what the true Christian religion teaches"). But when it comes down to us as a country taking a moment to try and understand what's really going on out there, all our feeble collective minds can register is:

Muslim = Terrorist, hell we can even narrow that down to "brown = terrorist".

Pretty sad when random people driving on the road feel the need to roll down their window and scream "GO BACK TO YOUR OWN COUNTRY, TERRORIST" at me - LOL, me, who is not even close to being middle eastern, but have enough pigment in my skin to be classified as a terrorist. These aren't rednecks either, but middle class people in Alpharetta, driving Navigators, Excursions, etc.

[Jaimecbr900]

movtives of the insane/misunderstood do not matter... if i killed you in the name of the devil would it make it any different if i just killed you. your still dead just b/c i put a iconic motive to it doesn't say anything.

It would say a lot about devil worshipers if they stood by and said "hmmm, Ok this guy is killing and making us look bad.....nah, it's alright, let him keep doing it...." Yes sir, it does say a lot about someone. ;)



the problem w/ this country is we have shot ourself in the foot... we put our selves in this situation now are are back pedaling out of it... countries like US, UK, have pushed for WAR and when WAR is brought to us we whine about it. just like the pope opening his mouth about muslims... that has to be the dumbest thing in the world to discuss... hey let me discuss politics in the middle of a religious war... why don't you just give them a nuke and key to your house.

Is that like the Elephant in the room thing?

So, let me get this straight: You are proposing that people stand perfectly still and hope that the wasp flying around doesn't sting you? What do you do when it gets ON you? Do you stand there and let it sting you or do you swat it?

So "speaking out" against crazy self proclaimed Muslims (because I don't think they're true Muslims) is a big NO NO because what? They're gonna get mad and kill people........hmmmm, anyone see the irony here?

[4dmin]

why don't you(or anyone else for that matter) accept the so called "Christians" bombing abortion clinic the same way?

side: you can't excuse someone's bad behavior with someone elses bad behavior? :2cents:

oh i have accepted it i've known for a very long time RELIGION is the devil. :goodjob:

[Jaimecbr900]

Anyways the ignorance in this thread is offensive. Especially from someone like Jamiecbr. [/serious RG]

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

[4dmin]

It would say a lot about devil worshipers if they stood by and said "hmmm, Ok this guy is killing and making us look bad.....nah, it's alright, let him keep doing it...." Yes sir, it does say a lot about someone. ;)




Is that like the Elephant in the room thing?

So, let me get this straight: You are proposing that people stand perfectly still and hope that the wasp flying around doesn't sting you? What do you do when it gets ON you? Do you stand there and let it sting you or do you swat it?

So "speaking out" against crazy self proclaimed Muslims (because I don't think they're true Muslims) is a big NO NO because what? They're gonna get mad and kill people........hmmmm, anyone see the irony here?

Ok let me break it down... imagine your a "black man"... would you walk into a Nazi biker bar and call them out?

Sorry not going to happen... anyone in their right mind isn't going to speak out against terrorist in their back yard. Ever seen the Godfather? yup.

[Dragonfly5338]

It would say a lot about devil worshipers if they stood by and said "hmmm, Ok this guy is killing and making us look bad.....nah, it's alright, let him keep doing it...." Yes sir, it does say a lot about someone. ;)




Is that like the Elephant in the room thing?

So, let me get this straight: You are proposing that people stand perfectly still and hope that the wasp flying around doesn't sting you? What do you do when it gets ON you? Do you stand there and let it sting you or do you swat it?

So "speaking out" against crazy self proclaimed Muslims (because I don't think they're true Muslims) is a big NO NO because what? They're gonna get mad and kill people........hmmmm, anyone see the irony here?

The same thing is happening in this country though, albeit in a very smaller scale. What happened when the war first started and people protested? They were told "Get the fuck out of this country if you don't support it" by a MINORITY of people who have an EXTREMIST mindset about how this country should be run.

Now take that, multiply it by a thousand, and give them guns, bombs, knives, etc.

Muslims did stand up and call the pope an idiot when he opened his mouth and showed his ignorance. They DID stand up and protest when 9/11 happened.

You're wanting people who have been thrown in a middle of a war without their choosing to stand up and publicly protest?? I'd be more worried about my ass getting bombed on accident, to be honest.

Plus, do you REALLY think USA today is going to have a front page paper with "Peaceful Muslims say Terrorists are Bad"?? No, they go for the good stuff about extremists blowing themselves up and blowing up school buses.

[Jaimecbr900]

That's the mindset of our country, and the problem.

People are more than willing to split the two when it applies to THEIR religion (aka, David Coresh - "Oh he's a whacko, not a true christian" or the abortion bombers - "They're Christian EXTREMISTS, not what the true Christian religion teaches"). But when it comes down to us as a country taking a moment to try and understand what's really going on out there, all our feeble collective minds can register is:

The difference is LOTS of "Christians" spoke out AGAINST extremists proclaiming to be doing "God's work".

That is exactly what I'm referring to.




Pretty sad when random people driving on the road feel the need to roll down their window and scream "GO BACK TO YOUR OWN COUNTRY, TERRORIST" at me - LOL, me, who is not even close to being middle eastern, but have enough pigment in my skin to be classified as a terrorist. These aren't rednecks either, but middle class people in Alpharetta, driving Navigators, Excursions, etc.


It is pretty sad how people are ignorant like that. What the hell would yelling at someone out the window do anyway? Is not like you're gonna suddenly have an epiphany and say "damn, I think I'm gonna go "home" now" and turn around and drive straight to the nearest airport...... :lmfao:

They're gay as hell and I know you didn't pay those idiots any attention, right?

[4dmin]

ThPlus, do you REALLY think USA today is going to have a front page paper with "Peaceful Muslims say Terrorists are Bad"?? No, they go for the good stuff about extremists blowing themselves up and blowing up school buses.

val you have no idea what your talking about... usa today covers butterfly covered meadows filled w/ unicorns and cute shit... thats what sells magazines... oh that and Tom Cruise's new baby pix :lmfao:

[Dragonfly5338]

The difference is LOTS of "Christians" spoke out AGAINST extremists proclaiming to be doing "God's work".

That is exactly what I'm referring to.






It is pretty sad how people are ignorant like that. What the hell would yelling at someone out the window do anyway? Is not like you're gonna suddenly have an epiphany and say "damn, I think I'm gonna go "home" now" and turn around and drive straight to the nearest airport...... :lmfao:

They're gay as hell and I know you didn't pay those idiots any attention, right?

No, I yelled "GUESS WHAT NIGGA YOU'VE JUST BEEN JIHAD'ED!!!!!" then turbo tagged them. :doh: In my southern accent. LOL. Bad yes, but the face on one lady was absolutely priceless.

[Dragonfly5338]

val you have no idea what your talking about... usa today covers butterfly covered meadows filled w/ unicorns and cute shit... thats what sells magazines... oh that and Tom Cruise's new baby pix :lmfao:

Dude that ain't his baby! LOL now THAT is some conspiracy theory shit right thurr. I read some theory somewhere and after about 10 minutes of it decided that middle aged housewives in Nebraska or wherever should work for the CIA. Ladies got that shit figured OUT, haha.

[RandomGuy]

What the hell is that supposed to mean?
i valued your fuckin opinions and judgements on lots of the other threads in the civil forum... But seriously, something like this, from you.

Firstly, you're saying that Islam is one sort of big unified religion. Hrm... if someone said "You aren't muslim if you do ___ and ___" (which has happened), then that same ideal would be accepted by all of the various other belief holding groups!? You know for a fuckin fact that, even in christianity, there are even fueds between different congregations, let alone different denominations.

Hrm but i forget that all of us "terrorists" are of the same breed or spawn, we walk holding hands, etc right? We make terroristic decisions in tandem. Unlike Christianity, which is one big peaceful and unified religion. :rolleyes: All of them recognize the Pope don't they?


There are just as many denominations within Islam if not more, than Christianity, but they aren't as clear cut. Some of the SMALLER ONES... as in VERY SMALL percentage, the misguided ones are the ones which are causing headlines,and the Media is, intentionally, grouping us into the whole schema of things.



More specifically, why is it that we see public outcry from Muslims all over the world, even death threats, over a caricature and over some words said by the Pope but we don't see massive protests or outcry over bombings/beheadings/killing all done while clearly claiming to be doing so as an act of religious faith?

That's because it was offensive, they were showing so, (do you know how many NONVIOLENT protests there were?!)... But the headlines of course would portray the OTHER misled ones' actions.... and group them into the mainstream Muslims right?

[Jaimecbr900]

The same thing is happening in this country though, albeit in a very smaller scale. What happened when the war first started and people protested? They were told "Get the fuck out of this country if you don't support it" by a MINORITY of people who have an EXTREMIST mindset about how this country should be run.

Now take that, multiply it by a thousand, and give them guns, bombs, knives, etc.


I said in the very beginning that I figured this was one of the reasons for not standing up, but again not all Muslims live in the Middle East either. I can understand those guys being scared and rightly so. I totally understand that.

But what is the reason in other parts of the world where a threat like that is not there?

Maybe I'm just simply not seeing something that is in fact there. Maybe I'm reading the wrong publications or maybe I just don't watch the news as often as I should to see it. I'm not necessarily saying it hasn't been done, I'm just saying I'm not seeing it myself and if it's there would someone please point me to it so I can see it. I'm not trying to be an ass, just trying to get some insight.


Muslims did stand up and call the pope an idiot when he opened his mouth and showed his ignorance. They DID stand up and protest when 9/11 happened.

Again, it may very well be just me being misinformed, but I just haven't seen the type of outcry towards terrorism as I have seen towards a caricature.




Plus, do you REALLY think USA today is going to have a front page paper with "Peaceful Muslims say Terrorists are Bad"?? No, they go for the good stuff about extremists blowing themselves up and blowing up school buses.

I think that may be part of the problem too. I know some "good news" don't sell as blood guts do.

[Brett]

hrm... so no one says anything... no one ever says "islam is a religion of peace"

Hrm, so its safe to conclude that we're terrorists since we're not fulfilling our "assigned religious duty" to speak out against negative media representation towards Islam? Kind of reminds me of Bush's: "If you're not with us, you're one of them" shit. If only we were like christians, with no sinful interpreters, no people who do immoral things in the name of god...

come to my mosque on friday .... listen to 1 speech.
thats all.

Anyways the ignorance in this thread is offensive. Especially from someone like Jamiecbr. [/serious RG]

Who here is being ignorrant? No one is bashing Islam or the muslim faith, Its just a question on why more people dont speak out when we all know the true teachings of Islam is peace, so the few who try and do wrong in the name of Islam dont get denounced, No one in here is saying Muslims as a whole are bad, Its a VERY FEW who are extremesists who take th eteachings and twist it to suit thier beliefs, we all understand that, What we are asking is why a large portion of a group doesnt stand up against the FEW who take it in the wrong direction.

[RandomGuy]

so the few who try and do wrong in the name of Islam dont get denounced,
ok if u say so :blah:

[Jaimecbr900]

i valued your fuckin opinions and judgements on lots of the other threads in the civil forum... But seriously, something like this, from you.

Firstly, you're saying that Islam is one sort of big unified religion. Hrm... if someone said "You aren't muslim if you do ___ and ___" (which has happened), then that same ideal would be accepted by all of the various other belief holding groups!? You know for a fuckin fact that, even in christianity, there are even fueds between different congregations, let alone different denominations.

#1. Thank you for that, although you did use the past tense in that verb up there so...... :thinking: :D ;)

#2. I'm not trying to glob anyone together. All I'm trying to say is that why don't people like you who are obviously on the "good" side of the Muslim religion simply say, "hey, these crazy people are making all of US look bad by association (right or wrong), so I'm going to stand up and say that's NOT WHAT A TRUE MUSLIM is about!!!!" You will never be able to convince everyone that is closed off to the idea, but you will show considerably more that this in fact is NOT how your religion views the world. See, right now they (the crazy ones) have a louder bull horn than you do, although there are more of you than them. Why not change that?




Hrm but i forget that all of us "terrorists" are of the same breed or spawn, we walk holding hands, etc right? We make terroristic decisions in tandem. Unlike Christianity, which is one big peaceful and unified religion. :rolleyes: All of them recognize the Pope don't they?


The only sect of Christianity that follows the Pope is the Catholics. I'm not Catholic, although most of my family is, so I don't recognize the Pope as "my" leader.

I do understand what you're saying because I guess it would be hard for any religion to merely unite into any cause. Maybe I'm wording it incorrectly or like I said before maybe I'm just merely not seeing those public outcries that are/were in fact there. That's why I'm asking. Someone please help me see that and I will be glad to learn something I didn't know.


There are just as many denominations within Islam if not more, than Christianity, but they aren't as clear cut. Some of the SMALLER ONES... as in VERY SMALL percentage, the misguided ones are the ones which are causing headlines,and the Media is, intentionally, grouping us into the whole schema of things.

Learned something new today. I had no idea that there were lots of Islamic denominations per se. I understood that just like in any religion there are extreme rights and lefts, while most are somewhere in the middle. I guess Islam is the same.




That's because it was offensive, they were showing so, (do you know how many NONVIOLENT protests there were?!)... But the headlines of course would portray the OTHER misled ones' actions.... and group them into the mainstream Muslims right?

I didn't follow you here.

[Brett]

ok if u say so :blah:

Case and point, You are trying to twist a simple question into what you want it to be and and act like people are attacking a faith here.

[MongolPup]

There are times when war is tolerated, permitted and even, in some case, to a point accepted, but never considered holy. Islam is a religion of peace, no matter what certain media or deranged individuals say or claim.

Remember, the Christians are the same way. The first "Crusades" were indeed called by the pope, but then later people would just "call" them themselves. If we had had this conversation a couple hundred years ago, we would be saying "damn Christians, seems like every couple of years they go and fuck shit up."

Sadly I need to go to work, so if someone wants to refute this or w/e you may have to wait a bit.

[RandomGuy]

#1. Thank you for that, although you did use the past tense in that verb up there so...... :thinking: :D ;)

Didn't mean that was just heated after seeing something like that.


#2. I'm not trying to glob anyone together. All I'm trying to say is that why don't people like you who are obviously on the "good" side of the Muslim religion simply say, "hey, these crazy people are making all of US look bad by association (right or wrong), so I'm going to stand up and say that's NOT WHAT A TRUE MUSLIM is about!!!!" You will never be able to convince everyone that is closed off to the idea, but you will show considerably more that this in fact is NOT how your religion views the world. See, right now they (the crazy ones) have a louder bull horn than you do, although there are more of you than them. Why not change that?

Just for the record, Where do you get your information? The media, right? Well as I already said, the Media is not on our side. What you do not know (and also the reason I invited you guys to my mosque)... Is to hear the surmons. How angry they are at the people who have made Islam portrayed in this light. They give many, many ways to help... Many people even go overseas at the source... as sort of "missionary" type missions... But get found with "ties to al-queda". (you'd be surprised with how many people get these)
ON MANY MANY DIFFERENT OCCAISIONS THE MAINSTREAM MUSLIM POPULATION DENOUNCES 'TERRORISM' OR VIOLENT ACTS BY OTHER 'MUSLIM INDIVIDUALS
My friend's dad is a high up at the giant mosque in down town, he gives many speeches, etc. You should def attend one.



The only sect of Christianity that follows the Pope is the Catholics. I'm not Catholic, although most of my family is, so I don't recognize the Pope as "my" leader. the :rolleyes: denotes sarcasm :)



I do understand what you're saying because I guess it would be hard for any religion to merely unite into any cause. Maybe I'm wording it incorrectly or like I said before maybe I'm just merely not seeing those public outcries that are/were in fact there. That's why I'm asking. Someone please help me see that and I will be glad to learn something I didn't know.

And plus there are many more facets to this debate... Lol but i do not want to get into that, not here, specially when i don't have links to sources on hand.
But this whole issue is a mixture of two issues... Two completely separate issues... which are, again, grouped up into 1. It is both a religious issue, as well as a political issue. For example, a US soldier kills someone. This person is
merely a soldier in duty, right? Now say a Palestinian civilian-militia member kills invaders encroaching upon his territory. The conflict between political parties (in the region) is based on religion, right? This is irrelevant with the killing. Just by the fact that he is Muslim, he is immediately labeled a terrorist. It is this that the media has achieved. And MOST DEFINITELY INTENTIONALLY.



Learned something new today. I had no idea that there were lots of Islamic denominations per se. I understood that just like in any religion there are extreme rights and lefts, while most are somewhere in the middle. I guess Islam is the same.

yessir.



I didn't follow you here.
As far as the Danish cartoons go, for example. There was an outrage, yes. Now as far as "violence". How many muslims are there in the world? Those "violent" incidents could be counted on your hands... yet the media blew it up for it to apply to all of Islam, Why?



Another thing that heats my balls is the term terrorism. But thats another thread.

[RandomGuy]

Case and point, You are trying to twist a simple question into what you want it to be and and act like people are attacking a faith here.


...



Why is a religion that is said to be peaceful not stand up against violence that is perpetrated by people claiming to be of that religion?

dissect that sentence. Tell me that is not blatantly attacking a faith.


Why is a religion that is said to be peaceful

what does that imply? (just look at how the sentence is structured).... Hrm... You're right. :rolleyes:

[Jaimecbr900]

To be honest, noone has yet to answer my question directly.

We have discussed and gotten way off course from Islam to Christianity to witch hunts to stereotypes.

My question is this:

How come we see the "Islamic" community very upset about a caricature and about what the Pope said, but we don't see the same type of outcry for atrocities being done in the name of their own religion?

Is it because of the bias media?

Is it because I'm ill informed?

Is it because its not there?

Is it because they are afraid to speak out due to threats?

Is it because there in fact has been outcry but we just don't know?

That and any other variation is what I'm looking for. I said since the very beginning this was not an Us vs Them debate.

I don't defend pedophile priests. I don't condone violence in the name of my religion. I only follow what I feel is right. I don't try and convert anyone to my belief system at all. That's not what this discussion is about. I'm merely trying to get to the bottom of why things like this look like this. I know it has to be much deeper than what the bias media makes it out to be. Hence why I asked.

I knew we had a bunch of terrori.....ooops, I mean cool level headed Muslims in this bunch so I knew I'd get honest responses.......btw, that was an attempt at a joke so noone get all bent out shape about it OK>

[RandomGuy]

How come we see the "Islamic" community very upset about a caricature and about what the Pope said, but we don't see the same type of outcry for atrocities being done in the name of their own religion?

therein lies the answer.

[Jaimecbr900]

...



dissect that sentence. Tell me that is not blatantly attacking a faith.


How so?

[Jaimecbr900]

therein lies the answer.

Remember, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. ;)

[RandomGuy]

How so?
The fact that the religion is peaceful is unconfirmed in the sentence, yet the misconception that no one says anything about it is boasted as a fact....

[4dmin]

i just wanted to say DURKA DURKA :lmao:

[RandomGuy]

Remember, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. ;)
Well yeah thats exactly what media exposure is, grease. I guess we can just have it at that? Scapegoat: Media.

[Brett]

I agree the media trys to portray things one sided, that isnt in question.... and again you seem to feel this is a attack on a religion or group of people, and its no where near that. I dont consider anyone different than me because of the color of thier skin or thier religious beliefs so you can drop the WE ARE TRYING TO ATTACK THE MUSLIM faith right there, No one is doing that. It is just a simple question....

"When you know these extremeists do the killing/attacks on people that they do in the name of thier twisted view of a religion, why do the majority of the faith not publicly denounce what they do and take that away from the extremists? I mean think about it.... If they dont think they are dying and killing for thier faith (Yes thier twisted view of the faith) then they would have nothing to fuel what they do... because in the end... Attack after attack, they feell they are doing it for god and that everyone who is not "Muslim" or follow Allah should die, They publically say that on all thier video's "Either follow us and our religion and beliefs, or we will kill you". You see what Im saying? No one here is saying MUSLIMS are bad, That was never a question. We all are aware that like any religion 99% are true to thier beliefs and wouldnt condone attacks in the name of any religion... We know this. But if people take back thier faith and take what fuels these outcasts, they would have nothing left to die in the name of.

[Jaimecbr900]

The fact that the religion is peaceful is unconfirmed in the sentence, yet the misconception that no one says anything about it is boasted as a fact....

You could also look at it 180 degrees from there.....you are looking at it as a personal attack and thereby your view is slanted towards that.

How else should it be worded?

[Jaimecbr900]

Well yeah thats exactly what media exposure is, grease. I guess we can just have it at that? Scapegoat: Media.

Why not exploit it right back then.....become a louder squeaky wheel?

[RandomGuy]

Why not exploit it right back then.....become a louder squeaky wheel?
by bombing things? i dont think anything peaceful can get squeakier than that. And even so, in an ideal world, sure that MIGHT work. So did solar powered cars. How practical was it to make them happen though?

[RandomGuy]

i just wanted to say DURKA DURKA :lmao:
yo paul, you've seen my site right?
www.durka-durka.com

[abdullah9018]

i haven’t read the whole thread but heres my say
as a Muslim heres what i think there are a lot of extremist out there Christian Jews Muslims and so on but the reason Muslims get the most neg attention is because when something happens the media blames islam
a lot of people do stupid things but when they do it they dont immediately say christen Jew or so but when a Muslim does something it all of a sudden is blamed on islam its not that islam is a bad religion and says to kill people its just the media and make us seem worse then we are there are like 1.2 billion of us 10 mess up and we get treated like shit around the world

[RandomGuy]

i haven’t read the whole thread but heres my say
as a Muslim heres what i think there are a lot of extremist out there Christian Jews Muslims and so on but the reason Muslims get the most neg attention is because when something happens the media blames islam
a lot of people do stupid things but when they do it they dont immediately say christen Jew or so but when a Muslim does something it all of a sudden is blamed on islam its not that islam is a bad religion and says to kill people its just the media and make us seem worse then we are there are like 1.2 billion of us 10 mess up and we get treated like shit around the world
OH SHIT HIS NAME IS ABDULLAH!!!

INS LA MIGRA FBI CIA GBI ATF!!! GET 'EM!!

HOMELAND SECURITY > ABDULLAH

TERRORICE

[Brett]

i haven’t read the whole thread but heres my say
as a Muslim heres what i think there are a lot of extremist out there Christian Jews Muslims and so on but the reason Muslims get the most neg attention is because when something happens the media blames islam
a lot of people do stupid things but when they do it they dont immediately say christen Jew or so but when a Muslim does something it all of a sudden is blamed on islam its not that islam is a bad religion and says to kill people its just the media and make us seem worse then we are there are like 1.2 billion of us 10 mess up and we get treated like shit around the world

We agree with that 100%, Read what we are saying :)

[Mr_Mischif]

INS LA MIGRA FBI CIA GBI ATF!!!

You forgot DEA, but dem'z da Alfabet Boyz!!!! Watch out fo dem, son!!! Specially if you a terrorice!!!!


Sorry for the off-topic.

[Vteckidd]

the problem w/ this country is we have shot ourself in the foot... we put our selves in this situation now are are back pedaling out of it

No i think the Muslim Extremists bombing our embassys, and the WTC once, and the flying 3 planes into our building killing 3000 people put us in this situation.

Fact of the matter is that we are at WAR, we have always been at war . The only problem with this WAR is that we dont know who the enemy is, or, where they live. We know they are Muslim, we know they are EXtremists, we know they reside in the middle east and in the USA, but we dont know who is who and who is on our side. IMHO.

We had a chance to end all this 8 years ago with Clinton. He had the intel and the means to bomb bin laden, and he chose not to. He chose to watch football instead cause he had NO BALLS. Clinton was great at what he did, make people think everything was ok. He was a great politician, he was a horrible leader.

Now the left will say we went to war because Bush lied about WMDs. Yeah, so what. We had semi decent intelligience that said that Iraq had SOMETHING or they were TRYING to get something SOON. So maybe he POLITICIZED it a little to get approval. I think whats even more funny about that is the fact that even so fresh after 9/11 , some of the country still needed a reason to go after another potential threat.

Had we NOT gone to war, and removed Saddam, what if he wuld have gotten a nuke, or funded ANOTHER terroist attack against the US? then people would have said "oh bush didnt do ENOUGH to stop this". so you guys cant have your cake an eat it too.

Now the democraps say we need to pull out of IRaq. Oh yeah, thats smart. Leave a massive power vacuum to be filled by someone WORSE than saddam and all our soldiers that have died have died in vein. Why dont you guys come up with a plan, oh wait, they dont have one. Their platform is "bush is the devil, we need to change the policy in IRAQ, but we have no idea what that should be".




... countries like US, UK, have pushed for WAR and when WAR is brought to us we whine about it. .

again, its the democrats that have no balls that are whining. ;)

Now people will say that bush caused the 9/11 attacks with no credible proof, conspiracy theories, etc. Believe whatever you want. But freedom isnt free. I just think our generation is so lazy we dont want to fight for it. We just all want to work 10 hours a week an make 100,000 a year. We want so much from this country, but dont want to give anything back. 16 year olds can have $80,000 cars , but ask to fight for your country an its "fuck that".

I lvoe you paulina

to Jaime, your on to something. Ill say something thats gonna piss alot of people off, but i have had ALOT of muslim friends. Its a weird religion. Lots of people are very mellow. but, they dont want to stand up against the bad guys. They are very complacent. Most come to the US an milk it for all its worth, bad mouth us, but still lvie here . I dont get it. The religion as a whole has no balls IMO. They dont care for the most part. Many of my muslim friends, WHO ARE REALLY GOOD FRIENDS OF MINE, still think that Israel needs to perish. ANd since we support israel, we are targets. thats the heart of the whole matter, they cant let shit go. they are arguing over fucking rubble and will kill for the next 4000 years over it cause they are too stupid to wake up an say "this is a war that will never end".


/Corveys sermon

[RandomGuy]

The religion as a whole has no balls IMO.
yet according to you, these same "terrorists" strap themselves to bombs? :thinking:

[Vteckidd]

yet according to you, these same "terrorists" strap themselves to bombs? :thinking:
yeah , suicide is for pussys. and im referring to the "good muslims" who rarely stand up or out the "bad muslims".

[RandomGuy]

yeah , suicide is for pussys. and im referring to the "good muslims" who rarely stand up or out the "bad muslims".
why should they be obligated to?

[Vteckidd]

oh i dont know, human decency, world peace, the fight for good, etc.

thats what i mean about our generation being lazy. the "why should i care what they are doing " attitude only gets you so far. no offense ;)

[toonz]

:thinking:

[Vteckidd]

im sure ill get flamed an called a racist or some stupid shit cause no one will read what im writing.

Like i said, i have TONS of muslim, islamic, middle eastern friends an we debate this subject all the time. Like adults. But i realize it might be hard to get a adult discussion out of this.....

[Vteckidd]

oh an ill also say that Extremist Christians(Eric Rudolph etc), are just as bad as Muslim Extremists.

[Brett]

im sure ill get flamed an called a racist or some stupid shit cause no one will read what im writing.

Like i said, i have TONS of muslim, islamic, middle eastern friends an we debate this subject all the time. Like adults. But i realize it might be hard to get a adult discussion out of this.....

I tried explaining what we are asking, But some in here want to make it about "Them" and avoid the real questions.

[RandomGuy]

I tried explaining what we are asking, But some in here want to make it about "Them" and avoid the real questions.
And what questions were those?

[4dmin]

No i think the Muslim Extremists bombing our embassys, and the WTC once, and the flying 3 planes into our building killing 3000 people put us in this situation.

Fact of the matter is that we are at WAR, we have always been at war . The only problem with this WAR is that we dont know who the enemy is, or, where they live. We know they are Muslim, we know they are EXtremists, we know they reside in the middle east and in the USA, but we dont know who is who and who is on our side. IMHO.

We had a chance to end all this 8 years ago with Clinton. He had the intel and the means to bomb bin laden, and he chose not to. He chose to watch football instead cause he had NO BALLS. Clinton was great at what he did, make people think everything was ok. He was a great politician, he was a horrible leader.

Now the left will say we went to war because Bush lied about WMDs. Yeah, so what. We had semi decent intelligience that said that Iraq had SOMETHING or they were TRYING to get something SOON. So maybe he POLITICIZED it a little to get approval. I think whats even more funny about that is the fact that even so fresh after 9/11 , some of the country still needed a reason to go after another potential threat.

Had we NOT gone to war, and removed Saddam, what if he wuld have gotten a nuke, or funded ANOTHER terroist attack against the US? then people would have said "oh bush didnt do ENOUGH to stop this". so you guys cant have your cake an eat it too.

Now the democraps say we need to pull out of IRaq. Oh yeah, thats smart. Leave a massive power vacuum to be filled by someone WORSE than saddam and all our soldiers that have died have died in vein. Why dont you guys come up with a plan, oh wait, they dont have one. Their platform is "bush is the devil, we need to change the policy in IRAQ, but we have no idea what that should be".




again, its the democrats that have no balls that are whining. ;)

Now people will say that bush caused the 9/11 attacks with no credible proof, conspiracy theories, etc. Believe whatever you want. But freedom isnt free. I just think our generation is so lazy we dont want to fight for it. We just all want to work 10 hours a week an make 100,000 a year. We want so much from this country, but dont want to give anything back. 16 year olds can have $80,000 cars , but ask to fight for your country an its "fuck that".

I lvoe you paulina

to Jaime, your on to something. Ill say something thats gonna piss alot of people off, but i have had ALOT of muslim friends. Its a weird religion. Lots of people are very mellow. but, they dont want to stand up against the bad guys. They are very complacent. Most come to the US an milk it for all its worth, bad mouth us, but still lvie here . I dont get it. The religion as a whole has no balls IMO. They dont care for the most part. Many of my muslim friends, WHO ARE REALLY GOOD FRIENDS OF MINE, still think that Israel needs to perish. ANd since we support israel, we are targets. thats the heart of the whole matter, they cant let shit go. they are arguing over fucking rubble and will kill for the next 4000 years over it cause they are too stupid to wake up an say "this is a war that will never end".


/Corveys sermon

its funny everyone wants to always point the finger at Clinton... this is the issue w/ that... where were we when Afganistan was being invaded by russia? who invaded Iraq once already and didn't finish the job... the problems w/ the middle east started over 20 years ago...

you want the answer to the problem look in the mirror. we have put your selves there... idiots like bush telling people what they can/can't do w/ their country is why we are in this situation... muslims have been here as long as christians and shit we are in is only 20+ years old so you can't say muslims are the problem... hello why are are really in the middle east? what next iran, korea, pakistan, etc? next it won't just be muslims ;)

we as a country need to fix our own problems at home before we start spreading our selves so thin... look at New Orleans... we can't even protect our selves from our selves :goodjob:

[Brett]

The ones that Jamie asked that for some reason you feel is an attack on a religion........

I mean honestly, when I said this statement earlier... do you not agree in the least?


Which in turn would take away the very thing terrorists truley believe they are fighting for.

Mean think about it. These extremest thrive on killing and putting society in fear.. But they do it in the name of "Islam" so they feel when they misread what the religion preaches. So if a religion turned its back on them and denounced what they do, Honestly, what would these terror cells have to fight for then? Its just a matter of people standing up for what is right and saying "No More"

And I would ask this question no matter what religion or race had a voice to make a change. Muslim, Jewish, Christian, whoever... Every religion has extreme nut jobs, Look at Eric Rudolph..... Look at Priests who molest kids... Its not just one religion, Its all religions who have bad apples, But until people say "No More Will This Be Tolerated" nothing will ever change.

[MachNU]

I might be a little to late in throwing in my two cents, but from reading Vtecs long responce pretty much said it all. But hey...:dunno:


its funny everyone wants to always point the finger at Clinton... this is the issue w/ that... where were we when Afganistan was being invaded by russia? who invaded Iraq once already and didn't finish the job... the problems w/ the middle east started over 20 years ago...

you want the answer to the problem look in the mirror. we have put your selves there... idiots like bush telling people what they can/can't do w/ their country is why we are in this situation... muslims have been here as long as christians and shit we are in is only 20+ years old so you can't say muslims are the problem... hello why are are really in the middle east? what next iran, korea, pakistan, etc? next it won't just be muslims ;)

we as a country need to fix our own problems at home before we start spreading our selves so thin... look at New Orleans... we can't even protect our selves from our selves :goodjob:

yes in all reality this all started with Clinton, that left wing liberal cocksucker started all this. Now you have all the democrats sitting here saying that "oh the war is bad, we need to pull out, it is accomplishing nothing...". I mean think about it, in i blieve 92, Osama, attacked the World Trade Center, by parking a U-haul full of explosives near the towers entrances to blow the place up, and pretty much failed. it was still attacked, but not that badly... So what happens Clinton pulls his dick out of Monica and signs a quick peace aggrement with Sadam.

But then when Bush is in office and Osama attacks again, with some proof that Sadam helped, and they suspected another peace aggrement, but no, Bush attacks back. That is the american way. Freedom is not free. This may be a bad look for the United States saying its nothing more than trying to take over more lands, or to conqure a land with oil. Is all bullshit. I love how all the democrats said that we went over for oil, but yet gas prices keep going up, guess Bush is just storing it for his own personal supply.

But yet after 5 years of this war, terrorism seems to be a scary thought...to manly terrorist. Becuase over the last 5 years attacks have started going down at a good rate. Even accross the world, attacks are alot less frequent. This war is a good thing, its showing that this nation will not stand up for attacks against its land, be it on our own soil, or the soil under the feet of our own troops.

I mean the muslim religion is even promoted that if you kill an "infidel" you will be rewarded in the afterlife. I mean any religion that promotes killing people who dont aggre with you is a VERY bad thing. Granted not all believers of this religion, do that, but any one that promotes that is wrong.

Then saying that we need to qorry about problems on our own lands is stupid. What problems do we have...Katrina, and New Orleans....thats ignorant. I am sorry but WHO THE FUCK BUILDS A CITY BELOW SEA LVL.....WITH A BIG ASS MUD DAM, stopping shit loads of water. They should have just made a Lake orleans out of the place. I mean give it a few more years another big ass dam hurricane is going to come through and wipe the place out again. There are very few problems this nation has, that cant be dealth with politics, police, firefighters, and paramedics. Let them handle theys problems while our soldiers handle other problems!!!!

This might have been more of a rant, and at some points off topic, but hey!!!!!!

[Dragonfly5338]

I mean the muslim religion is even promoted that if you kill an "infidel" you will be rewarded in the afterlife. I mean any religion that promotes killing people who dont aggre with you is a VERY bad thing. Granted not all believers of this religion, do that, but any one that promotes that is wrong.



If you don't have any real idea about the muslim religion, just what you've seen spouted on the news, I'd suggest not entering this debate.

[C22H19N3O4]

The religion as a whole has no balls IMO. They dont care for the most part.



That comment ranks you right up there with Echo419 and Tasuki Civic. Your post consisted of nothing more than a lame diatribe about Clinton, Saddam, and how Muslims have no balls. Just of curiosity, why do you associate yourself with people that allegedly have no gumption to bring about reform within their faith? Your comment ALONE is enough to fuel this anti-Muslim "discussion." I sincerely doubt it was Jamie's original intent to make disparaging remarks about Muslims.


I find it funny that our unyielding "war" on terrorism didn't prevent former Iranian President Mohammad Khatami from speaking at Harvard a couple of weeks ago. Someone had to approve his Visa and authorize security protection. :ninja:

For a pat on the back, name the person that wrote the following statement in 1998 after the 1991 Gulf War:

"Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under the circumstances, there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different — and perhaps barren — outcome."

[Hulud]

wheres the outcry here? ;)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060921/ap_on_re_as/indonesia_christian_executions

just some food for thought, this happened 6 years ago

[RandomGuy]

Fabianus Tibo, 60, Marinus Riwu, 48, and Dominggus da Silva, 42, were found guilty of leading a Christian militia that launched a series of attacks in May 2000 — including a machete and gun assault on an Islamic school where dozens of men were seeking shelter.

Why don't you people stand up against violence that is perpetrated by people claiming to be of your religion?!?! NURRRR durrrrrr

[{X}Echo419]

Fabianus Tibo, 60, Marinus Riwu, 48, and Dominggus da Silva, 42, were found guilty of leading a Christian militia that launched a series of attacks in May 2000 — including a machete and gun assault on an Islamic school where dozens of men were seeking shelter.

Why don't you people stand up against violence that is perpetrated by people claiming to be of your religion?!?! NURRRR durrrrrr

Ok that's it War over. some crazy "self-proclaimed" Christians did something mean so that excuses these radical muslims. it's time to come back home and build a big ass fence and hope no one gets in. after all if We leave Them alone they'll leave Us alone. and if we're lucky they'll stop shooting school children in the backs when they try to escape a hostage situation that We're probally responsible for anyways. and maybe, just maybe next time a group of muslim women are in a building and it catches on fire, when they run outside and don't have their Birkas(sp) on they won't be shot either.
I like this plan. sounds like a real winner. :rolleyes:

[4dmin]

yes in all reality this all started with Clinton, that left wing liberal cocksucker started all this. Now you have all the democrats sitting here saying that "oh the war is bad, we need to pull out, it is accomplishing nothing...". I mean think about it, in i blieve 92, Osama, attacked the World Trade Center, by parking a U-haul full of explosives near the towers entrances to blow the place up, and pretty much failed. it was still attacked, but not that badly... So what happens Clinton pulls his dick out of Monica and signs a quick peace aggrement with Sadam.

But then when Bush is in office and Osama attacks again, with some proof that Sadam helped, and they suspected another peace aggrement, but no, Bush attacks back. That is the american way. Freedom is not free. This may be a bad look for the United States saying its nothing more than trying to take over more lands, or to conqure a land with oil. Is all bullshit. I love how all the democrats said that we went over for oil, but yet gas prices keep going up, guess Bush is just storing it for his own personal supply.

But yet after 5 years of this war, terrorism seems to be a scary thought...to manly terrorist. Becuase over the last 5 years attacks have started going down at a good rate. Even accross the world, attacks are alot less frequent. This war is a good thing, its showing that this nation will not stand up for attacks against its land, be it on our own soil, or the soil under the feet of our own troops.

I mean the muslim religion is even promoted that if you kill an "infidel" you will be rewarded in the afterlife. I mean any religion that promotes killing people who dont aggre with you is a VERY bad thing. Granted not all believers of this religion, do that, but any one that promotes that is wrong.

Then saying that we need to qorry about problems on our own lands is stupid. What problems do we have...Katrina, and New Orleans....thats ignorant. I am sorry but WHO THE FUCK BUILDS A CITY BELOW SEA LVL.....WITH A BIG ASS MUD DAM, stopping shit loads of water. They should have just made a Lake orleans out of the place. I mean give it a few more years another big ass dam hurricane is going to come through and wipe the place out again. There are very few problems this nation has, that cant be dealth with politics, police, firefighters, and paramedics. Let them handle theys problems while our soldiers handle other problems!!!!

This might have been more of a rant, and at some points off topic, but hey!!!!!!

sorry man your wrong... the US was supporting Mujahideen prior to the Soviet invasion... which if i'm not mistaken Osama was apart of... so basically we gave them weapons + money to 20+ years later kill us :lmfao:

all of this shit started w/ Jimmy Carter, then Bush Sr. invading Iraq... Clinton got the aftermath... cease fire was signed in 1991 and Clinton came in 1993 so you do the math... as i stated earlier you guys need to read alittle more then listening to Bush advisors point fingers at previous administration... Could Clinton authorized a war in Afganistan sure... but no president in history has waged war with a country in the last 3 months of his term... what would the american people say then... "look what clinton did put us in a war and threw it in bush's lap"... hello your saying that now and he gave bush's administration the details of osama and the options... almost 9 months in bush's first term BAM! 911.

i always find it funny when war is discussed w/ bush supporters they can't give you what we've done to help the world just what previous democrat presidents didn't do ;)

[Hulud]

i love how you say that these christians are onle "self-proclaimed" yet you automatically assume that the violent terrorists are how muslims actually practice :rolleyes:

so if these muslims are radical than so are those christians :goodjob:

[Jaimecbr900]

I sincerely doubt it was Jamie's original intent to make disparaging remarks about Muslims.


I think the world is actually coming to an end....I've agreed with both Hulud and pharm_teg and even 2jzkidd in one week...... :screwy: :D

That is exactly right. I NEVER made this thread in order to open a door for ANYONE to bash Muslim nor Islam. THAT IS NOT MY PURPOSE AT ALL. PLEASE STOP DOING SO OR THIS WILL GET LOCKED!!!!

I want to learn and get deeper than the normal US vs THEM BS.



Once again, only a couple of you have started to answer my questions directly, but quickly reverted to a Christians vs Muslims or Democrats vs Republicans.

What do Christians have to do with the perception that the Muslim community condones terrorism? To me, it would seem the media would be brought up wayyyy before any religion. That's a possible angle, right?

What do Republicans or Democrats have to do with beheadings and murder of innocent people? I know, I know this will spark the great "war" debate. Got it. But isn't that just mere finger pointing? How do 2 wrongs make it right? They are allegedly retaliating for "us" being there, right? Can they not do that in a civilized manner? It is one thing to take up arms against an opponent, but it is something totally different and barbaric to sneak up on an ususpecting and innocent victim and slit his throat on TV to prove your point, isn't it? There should be outrage against things like that. Weren't there lots of Anti-War demostrations all over the world that did NOT include beheadings?

Why is it that according to records there are millions of Muslims all over the world, not only in the Middle East, yet the ones that are relatively "safe" from persecution don't seem to be very vocal about attrocities and barbarism?

Why is it that 99% of the debates where this topic is discussed never answer the question directly? Why does it always go back to, "hey you did it so why can't I?"....or....."hey I don't like it but what can I do?"....or...."hey they started it...."

Every point of view will have a totally different perspective on the exact same situation. Noone is 100% right, but barbaric attrocities are barbaric attrocities no matter WHO commits them. There isn't a religion, God, or diety in this world that condones or even advocates MURDER. So we all KNOW that the Extremist of ANY "religion" are working outside what is truly taught in ANY religion. We ALL get that. We ALL should acknowledge that. THAT is exactly the point I'm trying to make.

Only two people in this discussion have remotely touched on that and said "yes there is outrage and denouncement in the Muslim community" (although I'd really like to see concrete evidence of that, not because I'm doubting it but because I've personally not seen it before). Everything else being thrown around doesn't even remotely come back to my original question. It's all smoke and mirrors.

[{X}Echo419]

i love how you say that these christians are onle "self-proclaimed" yet you automatically assume that the violent terrorists are how muslims actually practice :rolleyes:

so if these muslims are radical than so are those christians :goodjob:

everyone else does the oppiste. that was my point, and I did say "radical" muslims. maybe Islamo-facists would be better.
maybe if I saw more "muslims" protesting the violent behavior of people in the name of Islam and less celebrating in the streets after events like 9/11 I would be more inclined to make that distinction clean. and no I don't think all muslims are terrorists. a friend of mine is muslim and he gets pretty damned pissed when he sees the terrorists types on tv. so much that if we're watching tv together I avoid the news stations. :2cents:

[{X}Echo419]

I think the world is actually coming to an end....I've agreed with both Hulud and pharm_teg and even 2jzkidd in one week...... :screwy: :D

That is exactly right. I NEVER made this thread in order to open a door for ANYONE to bash Muslim nor Islam. THAT IS NOT MY PURPOSE AT ALL. PLEASE STOP DOING SO OR THIS WILL GET LOCKED!!!!

I want to learn and get deeper than the normal US vs THEM BS.



Once again, only a couple of you have started to answer my questions directly, but quickly reverted to a Christians vs Muslims or Democrats vs Republicans.

What do Christians have to do with the perception that the Muslim community condones terrorism? To me, it would seem the media would be brought up wayyyy before any religion. That's a possible angle, right?

What do Republicans or Democrats have to do with beheadings and murder of innocent people? I know, I know this will spark the great "war" debate. Got it. But isn't that just mere finger pointing? How do 2 wrongs make it right? They are allegedly retaliating for "us" being there, right? Can they not do that in a civilized manner? It is one thing to take up arms against an opponent, but it is something totally different and barbaric to sneak up on an ususpecting and innocent victim and slit his throat on TV to prove your point, isn't it? There should be outrage against things like that. Weren't there lots of Anti-War demostrations all over the world that did NOT include beheadings?

Why is it that according to records there are millions of Muslims all over the world, not only in the Middle East, yet the ones that are relatively "safe" from persecution don't seem to be very vocal about attrocities and barbarism?

Why is it that 99% of the debates where this topic is discussed never answer the question directly? Why does it always go back to, "hey you did it so why can't I?"....or....."hey I don't like it but what can I do?"....or...."hey they started it...."

Every point of view will have a totally different perspective on the exact same situation. Noone is 100% right, but barbaric attrocities are barbaric attrocities no matter WHO commits them. There isn't a religion, God, or diety in this world that condones or even advocates MURDER. So we all KNOW that the Extremist of ANY "religion" are working outside what is truly taught in ANY religion. We ALL get that. We ALL should acknowledge that. THAT is exactly the point I'm trying to make.

Only two people in this discussion have remotely touched on that and said "yes there is outrage and denouncement in the Muslim community" (although I'd really like to see concrete evidence of that, not because I'm doubting it but because I've personally not seen it before). Everything else being thrown around doesn't even remotely come back to my original question. It's all smoke and mirrors.

the way I see it there can only be 2 reaons people don't protest in the streets when innocent people are killed in the name of Islam and go absoultely bat shit when someone makes a cartoon of mohammed.

1. they support the terrorists and their radical leaders.

2. they're afraid if they oppose the gov'ts and terrorists they'll be killed.

personally I believe in some places it's option 1. but the majority of people are in situation #2. :2cents:

[Jaimecbr900]

Here you go, this is a very direct example of what I'm talking about. Taken from today's news:

http://home.bellsouth.net/s/editorial.dll?pnum=1&bfromind=2219&eeid=5035396&_sitecat=1505&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=-2&ck=&ch=ne&rg=blsadstrgt

[Vteckidd]

Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum! (If you desire peace, prepare for war!)

[cceinc]

I believe that the only way that the people of Islam will make a move to peace will be when the Clerics who have more power than the politicians of there respective nations. They can persuade an entire nation to protest or peace. A big problem is the lack of religious tolerance by all religions. I do agree that the peaceful Muslims stood up against all the violence and also stand up arm-to-arm with the Jewish and Christian communities to show a world where many religions can coexist in one land other than the US could be the catalyst for a better future.

[AtifSajid]

..I deleted my response for personal reasons.

[Jaimecbr900]

..I deleted my response for personal reasons.

Why bud? It was the type of response I was looking for. :(

[Vteckidd]

I have NOTHING against muslims. Just let me make that clear. as i have said, i have TONS of friends who are muslim, follow islam, etc.

I liek to think im a very unbiased person. Im fair.

I realize that most may not like my comments, but take them for what the face value is, dont read so much into them.

[Hulud]

I have NOTHING against muslims. Just let me make that clear. as i have said, i have TONS of friends who are muslim, follow islam, etc.

I liek to think im a very unbiased person. Im fair.

I realize that most may not like my comments, but take them for what the face value is, dont read so much into them.
RACIST!


















jk

[Jaimecbr900]

Here you go, this is a very direct example of what I'm talking about. Taken from today's news:

http://home.bellsouth.net/s/editorial.dll?pnum=1&bfromind=2219&eeid=5035396&_sitecat=1505&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=-2&ck=&ch=ne&rg=blsadstrgt



I'm going to bump this since noone has responded to it in the other page.

[Hulud]

I'm going to bump this since noone has responded to it in the other page.
what kind of a response were you lookin for?
i mean its about the pope pissing off muslims then wants to talk to them to make it better

[Jaimecbr900]

what kind of a response were you lookin for?
i mean its about the pope pissing off muslims then wants to talk to them to make it better


Well for starters, you said that it was difficult to get different sects of the Islamic faith together to protest. I believed you. I have no reason not to, and it made sense.

Now, suddenly a news report comes out that THOUSANDS of CLERICS and Muslims gathered together and agreed to protest against what the Pope SAID.

How's that work? Organized enough to protest against a cartoon and what someone SAYS, but not organized or outraged enough to protest against KILLING OF INNOCENT people?????? Again, how's that work?

So you can gel together for something that is on print or someone SAYS but not together enough to come together for something that is DONE????? What happened to "sticks and stones"???? How come they can get angry enough at a RELIGION or PEOPLE (Americans) to burn images, take to the streets and protest, even threaten to KILL people if they don't stop TALKING about Islam in a bad way?

Even in this very thread it's been shown that if someone stands up and says anything remotely derrogatory about Islam people get bent out of shape. Do they not teach "turning the other cheek" or "taking the high road" in Islam? It seems to me that is playing right into a stereotype you are trying to disprove, doesn't it? That's like someone accusing me of having anger management issues and my response would be to KICK THEIR ASS to prove them "wrong"????? Dur, dur.... :rolleyes:

[Hulud]

Well for starters, you said that it was difficult to get different sects of the Islamic faith together to protest. I believed you. I have no reason not to, and it made sense.
i try i try lol



Now, suddenly a news report comes out that THOUSANDS of CLERICS and Muslims gathered together and agreed to protest against what the Pope SAID.

How's that work? Organized enough to protest against a cartoon and what someone SAYS, but not organized or outraged enough to protest against KILLING OF INNOCENT people?????? Again, how's that work?
i dunno im not them, i was just throwing out ideas, not the real answers


So you can gel together for something that is on print or someone SAYS but not together enough to come together for something that is DONE????? What happened to "sticks and stones"???? How come they can get angry enough at a RELIGION or PEOPLE (Americans) to burn images, take to the streets and protest, even threaten to KILL people if they don't stop TALKING about Islam in a bad way?
you can say the same thing about anyone of any faith


Even in this very thread it's been shown that if someone stands up and says anything remotely derrogatory about Islam people get bent out of shape. Do they not teach "turning the other cheek" or "taking the high road" in Islam?
i dunno, maybe, maybe not im not sure

It seems to me that is playing right into a stereotype you are trying to disprove, doesn't it? That's like someone accusing me of having anger management issues and my response would be to KICK THEIR ASS to prove them "wrong"????? Dur, dur.... :rolleyes:
and what stereotype am i trying to disprove? i am merely throwing out ideas, and if you think i am giving definetive answers you must be loco lol cause i am not in their mindset so i cant give answers, only suggestions

[Brett]

Well for starters, you said that it was difficult to get different sects of the Islamic faith together to protest. I believed you. I have no reason not to, and it made sense.

Now, suddenly a news report comes out that THOUSANDS of CLERICS and Muslims gathered together and agreed to protest against what the Pope SAID.

How's that work? Organized enough to protest against a cartoon and what someone SAYS, but not organized or outraged enough to protest against KILLING OF INNOCENT people?????? Again, how's that work?

So you can gel together for something that is on print or someone SAYS but not together enough to come together for something that is DONE????? What happened to "sticks and stones"???? How come they can get angry enough at a RELIGION or PEOPLE (Americans) to burn images, take to the streets and protest, even threaten to KILL people if they don't stop TALKING about Islam in a bad way?

Even in this very thread it's been shown that if someone stands up and says anything remotely derrogatory about Islam people get bent out of shape. Do they not teach "turning the other cheek" or "taking the high road" in Islam? It seems to me that is playing right into a stereotype you are trying to disprove, doesn't it? That's like someone accusing me of having anger management issues and my response would be to KICK THEIR ASS to prove them "wrong"????? Dur, dur.... :rolleyes:

very valid point.

[StupidBikerBoy]

I didnt read the whole thread, so Im sorry if I repeat something.


Im glad someone asked this question.

The Muslims that claim they are peaceful and that only 2% are extremists need to stand up for thier beliefs. Its not getting done like it should, IMO

And do you honestly believe there is some big media conspiracy to keep the ones that do stand up out of the news?? Come on. Not only is that rediculous, but Muslims speaking out would deffinately be a big story for the media. Just as big, if not bigger, than terroristic acts or Bush's weekly antics would be.

Then theres the millions of muslims in america. Why aren't they speaking out? They're not oppressed in any way.

What about all the leaders of the world that are muslim?
Or what about all the other Muslims that are famous for any reason. Why aren't they standing up?

I don't mean any offense to anyone, and Im not trying to insinuate anything. These are serious questions for me. I don't understand why a religion that claims its only about peace would allow these violent acts being done in thier name to continue without speaking out against them and discrediting them.

[Hulud]

yup, your right they dont speak out......
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-muslimreact06sep20,0,5140934.story?track=rss
http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Australian-Muslims-to-get-united-voice/2006/09/17/1158431580703.html
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2005-05/2005-05-13-voa38.cfm?CFID=50770695&CFTOKEN=69018590
http://www.rayhawk.com/classics/matusa/home.html
http://www.freemuslims.org/
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595063392,00.html
the list goes on, but i figured a few links will suffice

may want to do some research before assuming things everyone :goodjob:

[Jaimecbr900]

yup, your right they dont speak out......
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-muslimreact06sep20,0,5140934.story?track=rss
http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Australian-Muslims-to-get-united-voice/2006/09/17/1158431580703.html
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2005-05/2005-05-13-voa38.cfm?CFID=50770695&CFTOKEN=69018590
http://www.rayhawk.com/classics/matusa/home.html
http://www.freemuslims.org/
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595063392,00.html
the list goes on, but i figured a few links will suffice

may want to do some research before assuming things everyone :goodjob:

That's good. I liked a couple of those reports a lot actually. Probably because they are saying EXACTLY what some of us here are saying right now.

The Orlando report is a very good example of this. Professors, who are Muslims, express how they feel that other parts of the world do NOT back them up in their opposition.

Another great example is the article about the March in Washington DC. It was organized by the Free Muslims against Terrorism Coalition. They feel EXACTLY as most people do that it is up to Muslims to reverse the stereotype of compliance for Terrorism. He organizes a March and even inside the U.S. he gets opposition from his OWN RELIGION. The President of that organization is Kamal Nawash. HE says:

"Kamal Nawash is president of the Free Muslims Against Terrorism Coalition. Mr. Nawash, a Palestinian native raised in the United States, says that most mainstream influential Muslim American groups have not clearly condemned Islamic terrorist violence. "Most of the terrorism in the world is coming from Muslims," he says. "This is a very sensitive and difficult point for Muslims to talk about and admit to it. They'd rather not admit the obvious for the fear that this somehow might make Islam look bad."

He also added:

"We wanted Muslims to lead a march against terror - again based on the fact that only Muslims can deal with this," the president of the Free Muslims Against Terrorism Coalition says. "Of course, we hope that this march can be covered by Arab media and Muslim media and let the extremists know, 'Hey, we don't support you out here. There are people who oppose you.' The idea is to send a counter message. The idea of using this kind of violence for political change is simply not acceptable to us and we want to begin an ideological battle -- and this is part of it."

^^^^Which BTW sounds a lot like what Brett has been saying here since the beginning....take away their religious "ammo". ;)

Ok, that is a very good step in the right direction, right?......Wrong!.....According to his own religious leaders.....this is what THEY said in return about the March and it's organizers:

"But several well-known Muslim-American groups, who claim to speak for the approximately 6 million Muslims in the United States, are withholding support for the rally. And some are openly critical of Mr. Nawash."

"All of the American Muslims I know feel as attacked by al-Qaeda as any other group of Americans," says Hussein Ibish, spokesman for the Progressive Muslim Union. "There were a couple of hundred Muslim Americans, or Muslims at least -- whether Americans or otherwise -- who were in the World Trade Center who got killed by al-Qaeda on nine-eleven. There were Arab Americans and Muslims among the police and among the firefighters who rushed into the building and got killed as well as people who worked in and around those buildings who died. There are at least eight thousand American Muslims who proudly serve in the American military in Iraq, and in the Middle East and everywhere else around the world. And I think...to apologize like that is to accept the idea that there's something that you could or should have done, something you've done that makes you culpable, and that your community is not pulling its weight in this. And I don't think that's fair at all."

Hussein Ibish says he believes Mr. Nawash is allied with what he calls "right wing" groups trying to make Muslim Americans look bad. "This kind of stance has a utility," he contends, "for people on the far right, other supporters of the extreme right in Israel and other right wing forces, including evangelical [Christian] forces, who want to paint the mainstream Muslim community and mainstream organizations -- whether liberal or conservative, whether secular or religious -- as all sort of disloyal, as having a secret, pro-terrorism agenda. So, I think, Kamal (Nawash) has made himself useful," Mr. Ibish adds. "Mr. Nawash poses as the exception that proves the rule, so to speak."


So again, I'm very glad to see that Muslims are seeing the same things everyone else sees. It should never be about Muslim vs Christians or Muslims vs U.S. or Muslims vs the world. It should be about right and wrong. It should be about humanity. And the human thing to do is to call a spade a spade and stand up against someone who is doing something wrong, especially if that wrong they are doing makes YOU look bad by association. In order to disspell any stereotype, you can't play right into the antagonists hand. If you do, you're not doing anything but proving him right and you dumb. ;)

[Jaimecbr900]

you can say the same thing about anyone of any faith

We could, but we are discussing the Muslim faith in this thread. ;)



and what stereotype am i trying to disprove? i am merely throwing out ideas, and if you think i am giving definetive answers you must be loco lol cause i am not in their mindset so i cant give answers, only suggestions

I know you're playing devil's advocate here. I actually appreciate that because it gets people to thinking there are two sides to everything.

The stereotype I keep referring to is the basic one of "Muslims don't speak out against terrorism, but do speak out against words or cartoons."

It's been shown here that is not correct, or is it? That is the question I'm trying to get answered.

[Hulud]

We could, but we are discussing the Muslim faith in this thread. ;)
touche lol





I know you're playing devil's advocate here. I actually appreciate that because it gets people to thinking there are two sides to everything.
im glad someone is starting to notice, cause i like playing devils advocate, yet people get angry over it in here for some reason (religion forum in general)

[StupidBikerBoy]

yup, your right they dont speak out......
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-muslimreact06sep20,0,5140934.story?track=rss
http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Australian-Muslims-to-get-united-voice/2006/09/17/1158431580703.html
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2005-05/2005-05-13-voa38.cfm?CFID=50770695&CFTOKEN=69018590
http://www.rayhawk.com/classics/matusa/home.html
http://www.freemuslims.org/
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595063392,00.html
the list goes on, but i figured a few links will suffice

may want to do some research before assuming things everyone :goodjob:

I think I may have missed what I was trying to say.

I know there are Muslims speaking out, and i'm glad they are. What I mean is this is not enough, IMO. Basically, there should be some type of unity, starting from the middle east and spreading from there to completely alienate the extremists.