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View Full Version : KEEP IT SIMPLE, Vteckidds Guide to NA



Vteckidd
09-04-2006, 04:07 PM
I keep seeing these posts about these crazy setups that dont make any power, or people using these crazy JDM parts but dont make any power, and so on. Since I have owned some NA motors, built by me and built by others, i thought id share my .02.

My Resume:
187whp OEM built GSR
237whp LSVTEC

Now, where to start. Well ill start wit hyou guys with STOCK bottom ends. There is hope for you. You dont need to spend crazy money on big name parts to get power.

First, pick a REALISTIC GOAL. What is your purpose for building? what is your BUDGET? how much time are you willing to take?

On stock GSRs, 180whp is attainable with the right parts. I reccomend:
Camshafts:
ITR Cams
-Be carefull about where you buy them as people claim STOCK GSR/B16 cams as ITR all the time. make sure you know what your buying, or buy them new.

Skunk2 PRO1 Cams
-Probably the BEST on the market. Great Midrange power, awesome topend power. VERY Affodable.

Buddy Club 3+
-Good cams, not bad power. Soft midrange, but decent top end. Would rather have PRO1s

Jun3
-Good cams, outdated profile, but proven. Too much money, PRO1s will make more power

VALVETRAIN
ValveSPrings and Retainers
For MOST applications you can use Rocket Motorsports, OmniPower, Skunk2, Buddy CLub, TOda, etc.

Rocket Motorsports Valvetrain: Kteller.com
Skunk2 Pro Series Valvetrain: Nopi or Skunk2.com
Omnipower: Kteller.com or Omnipowerusa.com
Buddy CLub : Kteller.com

If you use the BIGGER CAMS on the market (Skunk2 PRO2s, BC 4 or BC 5s) you need to use the Skunk2 PRO series valvesprings an retainers. Heres why:
Their are certain characteristics to valvetrain that you need to be aware of when selecting your camshaft. High lift and duration camshafts have a great effect of causing coilbind. If you run WEAKER Springs rates with big cams, the springs will coilbind (touch) and cause you to drop a valve, smash valve stem seals, or cause upward force on the rocker arm pad which will wear out costly Honda rocker arms and your camshafts.

Contrary to what people say, Titanium retainers are PERFECTLY FINE. i have used ROcket Motorsports, Omni power, SKunk2 numerous times over the last 4 years with NO ISSUES. as long as they are installed correctly, valve adjustments done when neccesary, and cams an head are inspected occasionally, youll have no problems. dont be scared to run them.

VALVES:
Many people overlook valves. You definetly should NOT. If your spending $500 on cams and $300 on valvetrain, why are you going to trust 5-15 year old stock valves? FOr mild setups its ok. but once you switch to bigger cams, bigger springs and ret, its time to start looking at valves.

Ferrea Valves
Best in the business IMHO. Stainless steel, EXCELLENT quality, awesome price. you can get them if you look hard enough for $11 a piece, sometimes cheaper. They are excellent in terms of resistance to heat, detonation and breaking. WHat i always like about Ferreas is that 9/10 times if you get contact from them to a piston , they BEND, not BREAK. CHeaper valves break an shatter an usually take a piston or sleeve with them. Ferreas tend not to.

Omnipower Valves
Great flow characteristics, great price, shatter like glass LOL. These are REALLY good valves, but your giving up some things when you run them. THe omnis are a 2 piece design and made of a metal that likes to shatter. If you ever overrev or get conatc, they will shatter the face of the valve off and take your bottom end with them. Not a bad valve but be carefull .

Skunk2 Valves
Like Omnis, great valve, but can break if they encounter contact.

Supertech Valves
Very good company, very good product. Highly reccomend.

REV Valves
Very good company, very good product, have used, and would use again

OVERSIZE VALVES:
Unless your shooting for 260-300whp, KEEP STOCK VALVES. Running oversized valves just creates clearance problems and issues . YOu have to remember that in an NA motor, your running bigger cams, higher piston domes, and that means stuff operates VERY close to each other. Run an oversize valve, and your asking for valve to valve or valve to piston issues.

Header:
DC JDM 4-1 with 2.5in collector
-the MINIMUM you should be running. Tried an true, it can be found for as cheap as $200.

Replica Headers (can be found on ebay or Honda-tech. I recommend the RMF Narrow Replica 4-1
-Most power for the buck

SMSP
-Been around a LONG TIME, QUality is second to none, still hard to get ahold of as waits can last 4-6 weeks and longer. $650+


HEAD PORTING
This is probably the aspect of NA that gets overlooked or overtalked about. everyone is quick to throw around the words Port and Polish without really knowing what it means.

It is my PERSONAL experience that Stock Honda heads can support 185-190whp before they hit a wall flow wise. I have buillt and dynoed OEM motors with stock heads (port and chamber wise) that have made 185whp. Now, heres my guidlines for porting a head:

1) What year an what mileage is your cylinder head? if its a 14 year old B16 OBD0 head, you probably would be wise to invest in a 3 angle valve job and replace the valves. It would probably be wise to get all the guides checked as well.

2) POrting as i said is not really neccesary on a stock bottom end. WHat will make a BIG Difference however is a VALVE JOB. Youd be suprised the amount of power you can pick up with a proper valve job.

3) If you insist on having your head ported, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE leave it to a professional. Some places i reccomend are:
DFE ENterprises
Scots Machine Shop
Ball ENgine and Machine
Mainstream Performance
RLZ Engineering
Portflow

BOTTOM END WORK
Now if you decide that you want to swap pistons out, here is what i reccomend.

PISTONS
If its a stock OEM piston you want to use, then i would reccomend the PR3 Piston from the B16 in a 1.8L motor. This piston in a GSR/LS block gives a nice moderate compression of around 11.5:1. Great for pump gas, street setups. Not alot of money to buy them.
If you have a B16, your handicapped as any other B series OEM pistons will yield LESS than stock compression (with the exception of the CTR Piston)

Highest compression is not the best. Stay away from CTR pistons in 1.8l blocks as you will have an astronomicaly high comp ratio and makes for a very inefficient motor.

Ill reccomend a CTR Piston only in a B16 engine where you really have no other choice when it comes to an OEM piston.

FORGED PISTONS
If you decide to go with a forged piston, Youve chosen a path with many options. This is the time to figure out what is the goal with your motor, do you plan to spray on it at anytime? what is a realistic HP goal, what cams will you be running, etc.

CP Pistons:
I love them, i ran them in my 2.0l LSVTEC motor , never had a problem out of them. Great design, great price, GREAT RINGS.

JE Pistons:
Good pistons, HATE their rings. JE has low tension oil control rings which are prone to making your motor smoke like a chimney. I would buy their pistons, but use CP RINGS.

Wiseco Pistons:
Great company, great product, built a few motors with their pistons , very similar to CP.


RODS
Sp you chose to stay with factory ROds. Good for you, they are pretty strong.
GSR RODS
ARP Rod bolts are your friend. when building an OEM motor, be sure to spend the $50 to pick up a set. GSR rods with ARP bolts can withstand 9500rpm pulls pretty regularly.

LS/B20 RODS
The weakest of the B series rods, they have smaller rod bolts and wider bearings. Not good for high revs. If you have to stick with these, i would strongly reccomend ARP fasteners, and balancing. DO NOT SHOTPEEN. I would also get them cryo treated for added insurance, Pro-cryo.com does cryo by the pound, so its inexpensive for added security.

B16 RODS
THe old faithfull rods. Can be revved to 9000+rpms stock. Short stroke, well rounded motor. Id still use ARP fasteners, but they can last awhile at the high revs.

FORGED RODS
When using FORGED PISTONS, purchase FORGED rods. Its almost too easy to get rods nowadays due to their price an abundance.

Eagle:
Tried an true, cheap, can be found for under $300. Bullet proof, GET THE BIG BOLTS ARP2000 style. I revved mine to 9800rpms with no problems. A little on the heavy side, but will suffice.

Carrillo:
so you stepped up to the big plate big baller. these rods are lighter, stronger, custom made. you are the NA king, but it costs $800-1200 for rods now

Cunningham:
so you stepped up to the big plate big baller. these rods are lighter, stronger, custom made. you are the NA king, but it costs $800-1200 for rods now
CRANKSHAFTS
Stock is best. I see people "knife-edging" and doing all sorts of crazy shit. Its NOT NEEDED. I made 237whp with a STOCK OFF THE SHELF unworked LS crank. I reccomend that you balance and chamfer your crank, but otherwise leave it UNTOUCHED. there is no need to knife-edge or cut down a crank. your playing with a major engine compenent that was well thought of from the factory.
STROKER KITS

Stroker kits , BAD NEWS. Stroker kits lessen the life of a motor drastically. Stroker kits were never designed to be bolt in affairs even though they claim to be. To really utilize a stroker kits potential, you need to figure out the ride size rod and right piston pin height along with deck height an compression. You also need to know what R/S ratio you are running to determine where the motor can rev to. They can work if BUILT and USED professionally, but thats almost never the case. Stroker cranks change the geometry of the motor, so you need to compensate for that.

If you want discplacement, get it from the BORE.

BORE:
Boreing a motor is the safest way to get more power and discplacement. You can keep factory honda geometry of the rods, crank and get more liters by boring a motor out.

Stock honda sleeves B16, LS, GSR can go up to .40/1mm over. Stock bore is 81mm. YOu cna go up to 82mm on a STREET motor.

If you sleeve,
84.5mm will make your 1.6L motor a 1.8L
84.5mm will make your 1.8l motor a 2.0l

Typically you bore when you get new pistons an ringsets. Most people will do a .10/.25mm or .20/.50mm over.



VTECKIDD COOK BOOK
Here are some engine combos that we have done an what power they have made, just to give you an idea what certain motors/parts can make.

1) Username: Sticky
Engine: GSR B18C1
Block: OEM STOCK
Head: OEM STOCK
Camshafts: Integra Type-R
Valvetrain: OEM Stock
Header: Hytech/Rage header
Intake manifold: Skunk2 Pro Series
Throttle Body: 70mm Skunk2 Pro Series

Engine Output: 179whp/125TQ

2) Username: DA_UNKNOWN
Engine: GSR B18C1
Block: OEM ITR Pistons
Head: Skunk2 Digital CNC Ported Head
Camshafts: Skunk2 Pro1s
Valvetrain: Skunk2 Pro Series Springs and Retainers/Skunk2 Valves
Header: RMF Header
Intake manifold: Skunk2 Pro Series
Throttle Body: 70mm Skunk2 Pro Series

Engine Output: 202whp/137TQ

3) Username: Mr. Kidd
Engine: LSVTEC sleeved 2.0L
Block: CP Pistons, Eagle Rods
Head: DFE Enterprises Street Ported Head
Camshafts: Skunk2 Pro3s
Valvetrain: Rocket Motorsports SLX Valvetrain/Ferrea Valves
Header: RMF Header/Hytech/TDF
Intake manifold: AEBS Lightly Ported by DFE Enterprises
Throttle Body: 70mm Skunk2 Pro Series

Engine Output: 237whp/159TQ

4) Username: None
Engine: H22
Block: OEM STOCK
Head: OEM STOCK
Camshafts: Skunk2 Pro1s
Valvetrain: Skunk2 Pro Series Springs and Retainers/Skunk2 Valves
Header: RSR Header
Intake manifold: OEM STOCK
Throttle Body: OEM STOCK

Engine Output: 192whp/146TQ

bigdare23
09-04-2006, 04:11 PM
damn, just leave a brother hanging!!! I'm trying to take notes here!

o_bomb
09-04-2006, 06:21 PM
ME TOO!!

o_bomb
09-04-2006, 06:25 PM
:cheers: I've notice alot of tuners much rather build b and d series than the h series. Why is that? Dont get my wrong i LOVE any honda motor, but it seems b and d are more favorable.

bigdare23
09-04-2006, 06:26 PM
it dont take that long to eat a meal!

o_bomb
09-04-2006, 06:30 PM
:lmfao: LOL!!

Vteckidd
09-04-2006, 08:22 PM
updated, ill add more later

o_bomb
09-04-2006, 08:47 PM
:eek: WOW which bible is he reading??

o_bomb
09-04-2006, 08:47 PM
Can I use this info 4 my H?

o_bomb
09-04-2006, 08:49 PM
Proper valve job(not porting) will pick up power in a stock block?

wantboost
09-04-2006, 09:36 PM
Thank-you +1

SLow_POke
09-04-2006, 09:39 PM
NICE mike you should STIcky for future questions.:goodjob: (when ur done)

and you took my cheap OEM build and laid it out , most of it LOL.
cant forget tuning,
nice bible, lol
:goodjob:

-Ernie

Vteckidd
09-04-2006, 09:45 PM
Proper valve job(not porting) will pick up power in a stock block?
yes. Most OEM bottom end builds dont have enough compression to push a good ported head. THats why a valve job will get you more power.

Power is in the valve job. These theories and advice can be used with the H series as well. The H series are even more simple than B series. you can do stock Bottom ends with Cams, an a header an hit 200-210whp. Hell, Goinfasterthanu has a STOCK H22 with a DC Header that makes 193whp

KevinT707
09-04-2006, 10:00 PM
YEAH!

Vteckidd
09-04-2006, 10:03 PM
while i appreciate your input kevin, i have not seen proof that those EBAY headers make the same power as the DC Header. The DC uses bigger primaries, most of the headers i have seen of yours or EBAY style arent quite the same.

Im listing PROVEN name brand products, until i see a PROVEN ebay company, im leaving it out. You get what you pay for

VALVETRAIN and VALVES added in the middle

2.0civic
09-04-2006, 10:07 PM
great write up +1. mike i got a write up ive been compiling for about a week that im going to post later tonight but ill let you scope it out when i get it complete

Vteckidd
09-04-2006, 10:07 PM
kool

Big Baller
09-04-2006, 10:13 PM
I've looked at a lot of Honda heads while hanging out and various shops and the one thing that I've noticed about most of the heads that made good power is that they have had very little material actually removed. Somebody didn't just go in and go buck wild with a grinder.

Its about quality not quantity.

Vteckidd
09-04-2006, 10:14 PM
the V8 man speaketh the trutheth

HalfBaked
09-04-2006, 10:15 PM
If you sleeve,
84.5mm will make your 1.6L motor a 1.8L
84.5mm will make your 1.8L motor a 2.0L


Is there a difference btwn L and l?

Vteckidd
09-04-2006, 10:18 PM
yeah my lack of typing skills LOL

KevinT707
09-04-2006, 10:22 PM
while i appreciate your input kevin, i have not seen proof that those EBAY headers make the same power as the DC Header. The DC uses bigger primaries, most of the headers i have seen of yours or EBAY style arent quite the same.

Im listing PROVEN name brand products, until i see a PROVEN ebay company, im leaving it out. You get what you pay for

I don't appreciate you editing the post that took me time to write to "YEAH!!". I actually put some good time in it, found the links + took me time to think & type. Only reason I even said it is because I've looked at the DC Sports 4-1 upclose & the primaries & design look exactly the same size to me. So why pay +$100 ?

Vteckidd
09-04-2006, 10:24 PM
cause real power costs money. This thread is too what MY opinion is, and what my experience is for. Im trying to help the NA crowd out, and in my experience, the EBAY headers arent as good as the DC. sorry.

So i deleted that

KevinT707
09-04-2006, 10:28 PM
cause real power costs money. This thread is too what MY opinion is, and what my experience is for. Im trying to help the NA crowd out, and in my experience, the EBAY headers arent as good as the DC. sorry.

So i deleted that
What about my opinion ? :( *tear ..

Nothing is wrong w/ low budget speed :yes: Ebay FTW!

atlxkevinx
09-04-2006, 10:49 PM
Good write up! +1!

toonz
09-04-2006, 10:58 PM
Vteckidd= Honda's advocate
Thanks for the info

bigdare23
09-04-2006, 11:18 PM
oh yeah vteckidd after our lil "talk" when I got that fender from ya, I got on my swap. Hopefully by the end of the year, i'll have a 'lil head bussa".

Ludester
09-04-2006, 11:51 PM
Can I use this info 4 my H?

http://www.preludezone.com/showthread.php?t=267

if you have any more questions just post them up on that forum and I'll gladly answer them for you...

Big Baller
09-04-2006, 11:53 PM
It looks like Steve Irwins Vtec Solenoid stuck open and now hes dead.

Ludester
09-04-2006, 11:53 PM
Mike I got a question for you since you seem to be Mr. B series... Isn't the Jdm header better than the DC? I could've sworn that the collector on the DC is roughly about 2". Isn't the Jdm collector 2.5"?

morelian09
09-05-2006, 12:10 AM
mike speaks the truth thanks mike i'll be giving u a call soon on a new project i got coming out +1

Vteckidd
09-05-2006, 09:57 AM
Mike I got a question for you since you seem to be Mr. B series... Isn't the Jdm header better than the DC? I could've sworn that the collector on the DC is roughly about 2". Isn't the Jdm collector 2.5"?
Beleive it or not, the JDM Honda header is slightly worse than the DC header. Its made out of a thicker cast material and the primaries are as well designed.

The DC JDM header has a 2.5in collector, thats the header i am talking about

99SI
09-05-2006, 10:11 AM
While I appreciate the time it took you to write this up, it would have been better spent putting my head on my block bitch! :D Good write up. Arp rod bolts, valve job ftw! Oh and when you are spinning really high rpms often and get around 25-30k miles out of it, replace your oil pump! That's another thing you may want to mention mike, always go ahead and do a type r oil pump, a new timing belt and water pump when you are going to be doing any type of performance build up that's more than a bolt on. Always best to have some added insurance.

Vteckidd
09-05-2006, 10:17 AM
Ill go ahead an install your Head on your block, you can do that without a headgasket right? EL OH EL

99SI
09-05-2006, 10:35 AM
Absolutely, just use plenty of hondabond and liquid gasket, it'll seal just like oem. :D

o_bomb
09-05-2006, 05:18 PM
:goodjob: Thanks for the write-up bro!!

Ludester
09-05-2006, 07:49 PM
:goodjob: Thanks for the write-up bro!!

no problem man...

99SI
09-06-2006, 09:37 AM
lol^^^

o_bomb
09-06-2006, 05:13 PM
:lmfao: LOL^^^ U know who da boss iz!

Benjamin
09-06-2006, 09:54 PM
hey can you let me know how much it would cost to deck out a h22a engine so it can take a bullet

Vteckidd
09-21-2006, 07:28 PM
just wrap it with a kevlar vest :)

Black R
10-10-2006, 05:16 PM
Mike I got a question for you since you seem to be Mr. B series... Isn't the Jdm header better than the DC? I could've sworn that the collector on the DC is roughly about 2". Isn't the Jdm collector 2.5"?


The DC header is actually a knock off of the jdm mugen 4-1 header - which is why it flows better and is of such and such design.

The oem jdm itr 4-1 header is a compromise in clearance and performance + packaging constraints.

It is decent for the $ though... especially for ppl in CA who have to keep an oem looking engine bay to keep from getting ref'd and ticketed.

Ludester
10-10-2006, 07:46 PM
lol^^^

you caught that huh? lol

Ludester
10-10-2006, 07:48 PM
Mike and Black R thanks for the clarifaction(sp?)

thinkskater
10-20-2006, 08:57 AM
+1 to mike for going fast for cheap , and dissing knife edging cranks lol ya got balls

DrivenMind
12-12-2006, 06:07 PM
What if you have a Toyota? I don't know of any performance shops that specialize in Toyotas, much less old Corolla's the way you guys specialize in Hondas.

I just bought 84.5 mm Wiseco's with a 10.8/1 C/R, as well as a Cometic Headgasket, and ARP Headstuds for when I put my heap back together agian. Do the shops listed above specialize in one kind of car, or would I be able to find someone to bore my block there.

Vteckidd
12-12-2006, 06:41 PM
any of the machine shops i have listed can do the work you need including assembly

Crazy Asian
12-12-2006, 06:55 PM
Oh and most importantly for all H22 FREAKIN REMOVE YOUR AUTO TIMING BELT!!!! It gonna give you trouble in the long run so might as well change it.

an0therh22
12-12-2006, 11:28 PM
hey what would be the problem with goin with too high to a staged clutch on a stock motor? say a 4 puck sprung clutch on a stock h series? i heard u might have axle problems correct?

BlkCD5
12-13-2006, 11:07 PM
Would a person have any problems if they installed a cam with stiffer valve springs, but they used the stock valves?

Vteckidd
12-14-2006, 10:36 AM
Stiff valvesprings can use stock valves. thats fine, but TOO stiff a spring, and itll were your combustion chamber an seats out pretty quickly.

most of todays springs an ret are made assuming your using stock valves , so they are pretty soft, an usually good for 9500rpms.

josh green
12-14-2006, 10:55 AM
I am pretty sure you can get a stroker crank from honda, its from the 88-91 honda preludes with the b20a/b21 engines. 95mm stroke! I am not 100% sure on the deck height but if its the same as the b18 then you people may be in luck.

Black R
12-16-2006, 11:53 AM
I am pretty sure you can get a stroker crank from honda, its from the 88-91 honda preludes with the b20a/b21 engines. 95mm stroke! I am not 100% sure on the deck height but if its the same as the b18 then you people may be in luck.

That's an old school trick..... BUT there's some machinine work involved.

It is an option for those who want an oem crank AND have to use oem parts (some sanctioning bodies require all oem for certain classes).

josh green
12-17-2006, 02:53 AM
That's an old school trick..... BUT there's some machinine work involved.

It is an option for those who want an oem crank AND have to use oem parts (some sanctioning bodies require all oem for certain classes).
They do makes after market rods for the b20a/b21 engines. I know that you can get pauters for it all day long. Not that you couldnt get some company to make them for you. I soulnt suggest spinning it very high though, thats some hella side load, or pretty high pin placement.

Init2winit
02-15-2007, 06:21 PM
3) If you insist on having your head ported, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE leave it to a professional. Some places i reccomend are:
DFE ENterprises
Scots Machine Shop
Ball ENgine and Machine
Mainstream Performance
RLZ Engineering
Portflow

I wouldn't take my lawn mower engine to scotts machine shop. Those guys are the biggest bunch of idiots on the southside! I've seen Kindergardeners do better shit with building blocks than them!

Vteckidd
02-15-2007, 06:24 PM
maybe for V8 stuff , honda stuff i have never had a problem with them

Init2winit
02-15-2007, 07:30 PM
maybe for V8 stuff , honda stuff i have never had a problem with themAn engine is an engine. They do very poor "porting" work. Have you ever flowed a head that came from them? You would probably see a great difference in cfm between the runners. Aside from that, I have had several customers bring me stuff that came from scotts that have put me in disbelief. I'm not talking about just 1 experience, but countless. Anything and everything between bad port work, incorrectly drilled heads for studs (crooked studs), crankshafts journals turned undersized to where they would never hold oil pressure, and have to turn them again, incorrectly balancing rotating assemblies, etc, etc, etc.......... All I'm saying, if it's more than a simple valve job, you better watch what you get done from there.

Vteckidd
02-15-2007, 07:43 PM
i have only used them 3-4 times for MACHINE work, never porting a head. I was always satisfied with my bore an hone jobs from them and the balancing i recieved ( i check over machine shops)

i have never had a head ported by them, but i figured they could handle valve jobs an such

Vteckidd
03-22-2007, 04:54 PM
updated with MSPi CookBook

Da_unknown
03-22-2007, 09:01 PM
i made the cut...hahahahaha

jhaul
04-27-2007, 02:55 PM
what about th f series

ghb2oo1
06-18-2007, 11:40 PM
Good write up....

Its not very difficult to make good power with a N/A build, its just that most ppl are clueless on where to start and expect to see noticable gains from ebay bolt-ons.

If you've done your research on whats available and have the time and funds, you can definitely build an all-motor street car that will hang with the mild street turbo setups rolling about town.

And the guy that mentioned the D or B being favorable over an H has definitely never owned and H swapped car. They are by far the easiest honda motor, outside of the K, the reach the 200whp mark. Especially with keeping a stock block.

My newest H setup is as follows:

92 eh2 Dx

Jdm H22 Stock head & block for now
M2B4 tranny
Rocket Motorsports valve spring and retainer kit
OEM P13 flywheel shaved and balanced to 11lbs
OEM P13 intake pipe and Airbox
OEM intake manifold w/IAB's removed
OEM TB
OEM Jdm header
Exedy Stage1 clutch kit
Chipped P28 chipped w/crome PRO, running a custom basemap by Jason Wadsworth AKA "JDogg"

Untuned with no adjustments made 179whp 143wtq

Tuned by Jason it should make in the Low to Mid 190's as is.

Keep in mind this is a stock motor with only a light flywheel and valvesprings.

I just picked up a HotShot 4-1 w/3" collector and will also be purchasing some PRO1's, a 72-68 tapered TB, Decking the head 10 thousandths, bowl work by RLZ, 3" CAI and Euro R intake manifold. After i get everything together, then i'll have it tuned. It would be pointless to fork out the cash twice when i could just do it all at once.

I'm expecting to make around 215whp off this mild setup. I'll post up some numbers when its complete.

If it doesn't make the power i'm looking for, i've been considering some mahle 12:1 drop-ins.

Sorry for the rambling, just wanted to add some H22 knowledge into the thread....

The 200whp mark is very achievable on a h-series with just bolt ons. For any H22 guys, heres a short list of proven power adders....

Intake Manifolds - Euro R, DH racing, or stock with IAB's removed and Plenum spacer
The Skunk2 loses power even on built motors

TB's- S2 70mm, DH racing tapered 72-68mm, ericks racing, etc...

Intakes - 3" cold air has been dyno proven to be the most efficient on H22's

Cams- Type S for mild, S2 Pro1's are best for stock compression, Pro2's, JUN3's

VS & retainers- Rocket Motorsports are the best for the price hands down.
S2 Ti retainers have shown early wear on H22's. >10k miles

Valves- S2, ferrea, etc...

Pistons- Mahle drop-ins are the only piston that will work without resleeving

Headers- RMF, SMSP, Hytech, AN-R/Prospeed, Hotshot, Weapon R, Jdm 4-2-1
*DC, *OBX, etc... Dyno lower numbers than the OEM Jdm.

Exhaust- Crazy, but also dyno proven. H22's love 3" exhaust. They make more
mid-range and peak HP with 3" over any other size.

Porting & Bowl work- Proper porting can improve any motor, but the gains achieved
Porting and polishing H22 heads have shown to be minimal in
comparison with other series honda motors. Bowl work, however,
has increased gains as much as 15whp with the correct
supporting setup.

thats all for now. The key with the H22 as with any N/A setup is to increase the airflow as much as possible. The H-series love to breath and thrive when allowed to.

-donnie

H POWA!

JDMjoe
08-09-2007, 04:58 PM
Awesome write up man :goodjob:

E.G. KING
10-15-2007, 02:58 PM
what do you have to say about an n/a d-series?

Vteckidd
10-15-2007, 10:35 PM
not really worth the money, the most extreme but still streetable motors MIGHT make 160whp.

thats a built motor with crazy ported head and cam and a BALLER header.

for reference, STOCK GSRs make that much power with 87 octane :)

E.G. KING
10-17-2007, 07:38 PM
damn u just killed my already fragile dreams

k20
10-17-2007, 11:42 PM
just what i needed

DaneSi
01-18-2008, 06:57 PM
Any words for the K-Series? Specifically the new Z3?

Love what you guys are doing!

Vteckidd
01-18-2008, 07:08 PM
i havent gotten to Ks yet, but i have done alot of them.

PM me what ytou want to know

NAG2I
02-25-2008, 12:34 AM
my brother (jenson) was telling me about the header test you guys did a long time ago.
pretty much saying how even a really nice header really wont be making much of a difference.
it was a funny story though.

atlstrong
07-31-2008, 01:34 PM
what do you think of a b20 bottom end and a b18 non vtec head setup.

Vteckidd
07-31-2008, 03:07 PM
my brother (jenson) was telling me about the header test you guys did a long time ago.
pretty much saying how even a really nice header really wont be making much of a difference.
it was a funny story though.
I totally missed that lol. Tell jenson i said hi i havent seen him in forever.

The RMF header made 10whp over a DC header, i think thats a pretty good gain for $700 at the time

patrick4588
07-31-2008, 05:09 PM
wooohoooo! 70 dollars/hp.

Master Shake
07-31-2008, 06:47 PM
would a aftermarket flywheel/clutch setup make a difference in some applications?

Johnnyone
01-28-2009, 01:47 PM
Within a LS Vtec setup, you think a block girdle is needed?

Vteckidd
01-28-2009, 01:58 PM
no the girdle is over-rated unless you are going to be seriously road racing the car.

Johnnyone
01-28-2009, 02:16 PM
no the girdle is over-rated unless you are going to be seriously road racing the car.

Thanks, seemed like all the post that i read that reference a girdle was an older post.

Vteckidd
01-28-2009, 02:39 PM
in a street car its fine. My 2.0l engine ran a 89mm crank with no girdle and repeatedly saw 9500+ RPMs with no issues

Vteckidd
07-28-2009, 03:45 PM
Kidd has a new motor coming soon

B18c1Turboed
07-28-2009, 04:07 PM
Kidd has a new motor coming soon

I know what it is!!!!!:taun:

Da_unknown
07-28-2009, 04:55 PM
yea we know...

Ed
07-28-2009, 05:43 PM
back from the dead.

lol @ kiddracing headers. had to throw that in huh?

Rayza82
08-04-2009, 08:48 PM
what can i do to build up my jdm b20 i want to put a vtec head on it but not sure what i need to do to get the bottom end ready can u help vteckidd?

DustnU
10-09-2009, 12:20 PM
What about D series??? I am wanting to build a sohc vtec what are some good combos for me?? thanks!!

BluesClues
10-09-2009, 12:33 PM
This is very useful information! Thank you! I can really use this as I am trying to build what I have (stock civic). Not trying to be super fast, but I do want a decent amount of power and this is helpful when finding out what all can be down and where to look.

Thank you very much!

Sticky
10-09-2009, 04:55 PM
wow.. I LOVE this write up, I will be sure to take notes for when I am planning on building my motor. Thanks Vteckidd, you are the greatest!!!

tubby
11-11-2009, 08:17 PM
so if ur using a b18a block and crank u have to use ls rods? that if im using stock stuff

Vteckidd
11-11-2009, 08:23 PM
yes LS Crank= LS RODS

tubby
12-25-2009, 11:26 PM
so any more info for Pro-cryo.com the website is dead. is this some thing i should consider?

liltree
01-12-2010, 09:58 PM
IS ALL THIS INFO THE SAME 4 A F22 BLOCK WITH A F23 HEAD H22 TRANY RUNING ON A ACCORD TYPE R ECU WITH A APEX AFC NEO GAT ENY TIPS FOR TUNING NEED LIL HELP TUNING THE AFC MAN LET ME NO!!!!!!!

EJdm
01-12-2010, 11:05 PM
good stuff but how much is it...nice if their was a price or something for us broke ppl that are interested...lol

slowdsm
01-13-2010, 08:41 PM
i did not see any mention of a welded combustion chamber. it is a good way to increase compression and create the proper quench pad that keep from detonating too much.

Vteckidd
01-13-2010, 08:46 PM
Welding combustion chamber is uneccesary IMO if you want compression change pistons or run flat faced valves

Honda has engineers smarter than us that designed the heads a certain way

slowdsm
01-14-2010, 01:25 AM
welded combustion chamber is necessary if you want to extract every bit of horse power from an all motor setup. running a higher dome on a piston increases its weight. this in turn add to the reciprocating mass which rob horse power. by carefully welding and shaping the combustion chamber as to not cause any valve shroudings, you can achieve the proper compression and quench pad distance without adding excessive weight.

i got 265psi of compression on the compression tester on a b18b with topline stock style gsr pistons and welded combustion on a b18b head. this is with stock valves. getting the combustion chamber weld is pretty cheap. you can get the head milded for 25-50 bux at most machine shop. it cost me 100 bux to get the combustion chamber welded. if you get it done by a good welder, you don't have to replace the valve seats. take the head home and do some sweat equity on it. 265psi on a combustion chamber usually equate to 12:1 compression.

Vteckidd
01-14-2010, 11:56 AM
there are so many EASIER ways to get compression out of a motor that dont involve welding on a cylinder head

99% of your street car setups on here dont give a shit about rotating mass. Guys arent building LSVTECs with $1500 Carrillo Ti Rods or super lightweight Acrolite pistons.

If a guy came to me wanting to get his compression up for an NA build, id recommend running a taller flat top piston such as an ITR or PR3, or if he didnt want to go into the motors bottom end, flat face valves can bump compression as much as .3

Actually the EASIEST thing to do is if you have a b16 head, switch to a GSR with flat faced valves and you have .6 bump in compression.

too many things can go wrong welding a combustion chamber, and i only would trust maybe 2 people in GA to do it on a Honda Head, and the process can be time comsuming and costly.

This is about keeping it SIMPLE, not complicated.

slowdsm
01-14-2010, 07:14 PM
You right. Just a little suggestion for all motor guys too have a little edge. I guess most all motor guys are more into show than go.

MongolPup
01-14-2010, 07:40 PM
You right. Just a little suggestion for all motor guys too have a little edge. I guess most all motor guys are more into show than go.

Wait what? Just because Mike doesn't think that's a good idea for these types of builds means that people don't want to make power?

Vteckidd
01-14-2010, 08:35 PM
I've owned and built some of the highest whp motors and longest lasting, weldjg combustion chambers is about 30th on my list of things to do on an NA engine

slowdsm
01-14-2010, 11:36 PM
I don't see how all motor guys on ia are serious about going fast and quick when no one has anything over 250hp. Unless their there are some forks that are incognito. This 2010. Go big or go toyata prius.

Vteckidd, I think these dudes need to come to you and break some whole wheat bread with you. They need to get those aluminum rods or titanium rods. Their are actually a forge steel rods that is as light as titanium. They need a butcher crank ffwd. They need behives spring so they can run a smaller retainer. They need to send their heads to endyn and have the combustion chamber welded. They need to drop some money for your header.

all-mota
01-15-2010, 12:48 AM
I don't see how all motor guys on ia are serious about going fast and quick when no one has anything over 250hp. Unless their there are some forks that are incognito. This 2010. Go big or go toyata prius.

Vteckidd, I think these dudes need to come to you and break some whole wheat bread with you. They need to get those aluminum rods or titanium rods. Their are actually a forge steel rods that is as light as titanium. They need a butcher crank ffwd. They need behives spring so they can run a smaller retainer. They need to send their heads to endyn and have the combustion chamber welded. They need to drop some money for your header.

lol where you been man thats old shit. and my car makes plenty of power on pump gas, but i guess i'm incognito.

you don't need aluminum rods or any of the stuff you just said to make power my setup is simple and can be replicated all day long in fact i will have a new one in the works here soon to make even more, i'll be sure to post the graphs and the setup.

turbomirage
01-15-2010, 08:45 AM
^^^ How much power are you making now with your current set-up?

Vteckidd
01-15-2010, 11:01 AM
I don't know I made 237/159 with eagle rods cp pistons and a mild ported aebs manifold 12:1 compression

I've see guys with way more trick setup not come within 15-20 whp of my motor from 4 years ago

On_Her_Face
01-15-2010, 12:02 PM
I wish you hd a cook book for a K20 :(

Vteckidd
01-15-2010, 12:03 PM
its simple ask me most of the B Series rules apply

On_Her_Face
01-15-2010, 12:29 PM
230~250 whp help?

slowdsm
01-15-2010, 01:03 PM
lol where you been man thats old shit. and my car makes plenty of power on pump gas, but i guess i'm incognito.

you don't need aluminum rods or any of the stuff you just said to make power my setup is simple and can be replicated all day long in fact i will have a new one in the works here soon to make even more, i'll be sure to post the graphs and the setup.

How much is plenty?

Every gram matter in a n/a set up when you are working with small displacement. I know most n/a guys leave some room to make excuses when they lose a race. I know it is not the money issue because there is nothing cheap about a vtec b series or k series. It just senseless build a na setup with with heavy ass parts. Next time you get vteckidd to build you an na set don't tell him you want some weak apple sauce 175hp or even 200hp setup. Tell him you will bust your ass at work and you are going to give him some real money because you want 300hp+ from your b series. Anything less is unacceptable. This is 2010. Support the economy. Get the good parts if you insist on running na.

Vteckidd
01-15-2010, 02:07 PM
How much is plenty?

Every gram matter in a n/a set up when you are working with small displacement. I know most n/a guys leave some room to make excuses when they lose a race. I know it is not the money issue because there is nothing cheap about a vtec b series or k series. It just senseless build a na setup with with heavy ass parts. Next time you get vteckidd to build you an na set don't tell him you want some weak apple sauce 175hp or even 200hp setup. Tell him you will bust your ass at work and you are going to give him some real money because you want 300hp+ from your b series. Anything less is unacceptable. This is 2010. Support the economy. Get the good parts if you insist on running na.

this is the most retarded statement ever.

Its NEVER about how much money you spend, its about the entire package working together. Sure you can pick up 3-4hp from running $1500 rods over $300 eagles, but how many people on this board are going to do that?

You miss the entire point of this thread. This was my KEEP IT SIMPLE GUIDE TO NA.

This thread is for your average to medium built motors for guys running STREET ENGINES. The shit you are talking about is for all out race engines, and if someone is building that kind of motor they arent coming to IA for advice.

I have made MORE POWER with OFF THE SHELF parts that almost anyone in GA, so has All-MOTA. Both of us have had engines break the 230+whp mark with OFF THE SHELF PARTS. Stuff that everyone can use an afford.

You AVERAGE street engine is fine with Eagles, CPs, Wisecos, Minimal port work, etc. You are talking about welding combustion chambers when there is stuff you can do WAY EASIER than than to up your compression SAFELY.

How much power have your setups made? 300whp out of a B Series? GImme a break kid thats only been done about 5 times in the world.

THESE GUYS ARENT BUILDING THOSE KIND OF MOTORS. This thread is for guys building 190-220whp engines with minimal money. Its about spending money in the RIGHT AREAS.

Learn that

On_Her_Face
01-15-2010, 02:18 PM
230~250 whp help?

Is this possible with a K-series with "off the self" parts?

Vteckidd
01-15-2010, 02:21 PM
Is this possible with a K-series with "off the self" parts?

kinda depends on how much you want to spend though.

Stock motor is pushing it ill be honest thats about 50whp over stock. Most STOCK K20A2s make around 180-185whp.

You need:
KPRO
KiddRACING header (or something like it but its proven mines the best power for the money)
IPS cams or Toroku or GOPWR
valvetrain
RBC Intake manifold
Exhaust


If the motor is healthy that should put you around 220whpish. maybe more if you are lucky.

Almost anyone local thats broken 220whp had rods and pistons though

DustnU
01-15-2010, 02:32 PM
My boy has a Fg coupe and with SSR header, Injen cold air, and apex-i N1 he made 202 whp and 152 Tq, man K's are rediculous!!

Vteckidd
01-15-2010, 02:33 PM
My boy has a Fg coupe and with SSR header, Injen cold air, and apex-i N1 he made 202 whp and 152 Tq, man K's are rediculous!!

thats about right, B@D @PPLES car made 198whp with just my header. No intake, no tuning, no exhaust just a header and 2 pulls on the dyno.

On_Her_Face
01-15-2010, 02:36 PM
kinda depends on how much you want to spend though.

Stock motor is pushing it ill be honest thats about 50whp over stock. Most STOCK K20A2s make around 180-185whp.

You need:
KPRO
KiddRACING header (or something like it but its proven mines the best power for the money)
IPS cams or Toroku or GOPWR
valvetrain
RBC Intake manifold
Exhaust


If the motor is healthy that should put you around 220whpish. maybe more if you are lucky.

Almost anyone local thats broken 220whp had rods and pistons though

Thanks I'm going to price all of this out...

all-mota
01-15-2010, 03:00 PM
How much is plenty?

Every gram matter in a n/a set up when you are working with small displacement. I know most n/a guys leave some room to make excuses when they lose a race. I know it is not the money issue because there is nothing cheap about a vtec b series or k series. It just senseless build a na setup with with heavy ass parts. Next time you get vteckidd to build you an na set don't tell him you want some weak apple sauce 175hp or even 200hp setup. Tell him you will bust your ass at work and you are going to give him some real money because you want 300hp+ from your b series. Anything less is unacceptable. This is 2010. Support the economy. Get the good parts if you insist on running na.

lol your funny 260whp and almost 300bhp on pump gas out of a 1.9 liter

theres not a cheap part in my engine trust me but that comes with spending the money for the best parts

just a quick add up of a few of the thing in my engine are

carrilo pro a rods $750
sleeved block $950
cnc ported head with hand work $1200
smsp header $1300
jenvey itb's $1600 which was a good deal

and i could keep going but all of the parts in my engine can be bought off the shelf i'll gladly post everything and someone is more than welcome to replicate it.

thats more than most people want to spend on there whole build but they want as much power as possible and want to cheap out every way they can thats why most of them just throw a turbo on their car and say it's fast there not commited to doing things right.

slowdsm
01-15-2010, 11:57 PM
this is my dyno run @ 20psi.

http://s899.photobucket.com/albums/ac195/killercolt_photos/?action=view&current=IMG_0172.jpg

i am not a stranger to making decent power.

slowdsm
01-16-2010, 01:04 AM
this is the most retarded statement ever.

Its NEVER about how much money you spend, its about the entire package working together. Sure you can pick up 3-4hp from running $1500 rods over $300 eagles, but how many people on this board are going to do that?

You miss the entire point of this thread. This was my KEEP IT SIMPLE GUIDE TO NA.

This thread is for your average to medium built motors for guys running STREET ENGINES. The shit you are talking about is for all out race engines, and if someone is building that kind of motor they arent coming to IA for advice.

I have made MORE POWER with OFF THE SHELF parts that almost anyone in GA, so has All-MOTA. Both of us have had engines break the 230+whp mark with OFF THE SHELF PARTS. Stuff that everyone can use an afford.

You AVERAGE street engine is fine with Eagles, CPs, Wisecos, Minimal port work, etc. You are talking about welding combustion chambers when there is stuff you can do WAY EASIER than than to up your compression SAFELY.

How much power have your setups made? 300whp out of a B Series? GImme a break kid thats only been done about 5 times in the world.

THESE GUYS ARENT BUILDING THOSE KIND OF MOTORS. This thread is for guys building 190-220whp engines with minimal money. Its about spending money in the RIGHT AREAS.

Learn that

how do you know that you only going to get 3-4 horse from running the lighter rods? if i am building an all motor car, i will spend that money to get that 3-4hp.

increasing compression is only ne benefit of welding the combustion chamber. you will reduce significant piston weight from running a shorter dome. i am pretty sure you will free up significant amount of horse power to the wheel when the weight saving are combined with with a lighten crank, lighter rods, lighten flywheel, lighten wheels, 3 pucks clutch disc (more chatter but lighter than 6 or 4 pucks), behive spring (use a smaller retainer), narrow skirt pistons. you will have a better quench pad surface too which you can add a little more timing to pick up a little more power.

you are right. this thread is about keeping it simple. get everything done while the motor is out. spend a little extra money and have all the good bottom end and head mods. basically anything that require pulling the motor should be done ahead of time. this is important when you are paying someone to do the work for you because the money you pay for multiple shop visits can be use to buy the parts you needed to begin with. the complication is having to go back and explaining to your homeboy why you got dusted.

vteckidd. i know you are the all motor expert. i know you know a lot about all motor setups. tell these forks on here the truth and not what they want to hear. 200hp is not enough to hang anymore. tell them they need to spend money to go fast. tell them this is 2010 and there are only 5 b series in the 300hp range because they only want to spend money on some off the shelf pistons and eagle rods.

slowdsm
01-16-2010, 01:27 AM
lol your funny 260whp and almost 300bhp on pump gas out of a 1.9 liter

theres not a cheap part in my engine trust me but that comes with spending the money for the best parts

just a quick add up of a few of the thing in my engine are

carrilo pro a rods $750
sleeved block $950
cnc ported head with hand work $1200
smsp header $1300
jenvey itb's $1600 which was a good deal

and i could keep going but all of the parts in my engine can be bought off the shelf i'll gladly post everything and someone is more than welcome to replicate it.

thats more than most people want to spend on there whole build but they want as much power as possible and want to cheap out every way they can thats why most of them just throw a turbo on their car and say it's fast there not commited to doing things right.

260hp. now that is not bad on pump gas for all motor. will we see some e85 or race gas with a little more timing to see if you will be the 6th person with 300hp all motor?

i am running a turbo because i think anything less than 500hp is a little boring. heck, i was told that you need 600hp on the street to be cool but that is a whole different discussion.

btw. there is a lot of e85 station around here now. has anyone try it on an all motor build on ia. this can be a simple and relatively cheap mod. you can definitely turn the timing up with e85.

all-mota
01-16-2010, 10:48 AM
260hp. now that is not bad on pump gas for all motor. will we see some e85 or race gas with a little more timing to see if you will be the 6th person with 300hp all motor?

i am running a turbo because i think anything less than 500hp is a little boring. heck, i was told that you need 600hp on the street to be cool but that is a whole different discussion.

btw. there is a lot of e85 station around here now. has anyone try it on an all motor build on ia. this can be a simple and relatively cheap mod. you can definitely turn the timing up with e85.


all motor cars aren't like turbo cars you can't pick up 50whp with race gas and timing it's only worth about 10whp if your lucky

turbomirage
01-16-2010, 12:16 PM
"thats more than most people want to spend on there whole build but they want as much power as possible and want to cheap out every way they can thats why most of them just throw a turbo on their car and say it's fast there not commited to doing things right."

Bingo, this quote says it all. No one wants to spend that much on an N/A set-up on here because that is retarded. They want to get as much power as they can, so they put a turbo on their car. Cheap out? Why wouldn't you want to go fast for cheaper? And what is not right about putting a turbo on your car? By doing this you gain the same power and more for less money than if you stayed N/A. Nothing is wrong with N/A, but if you want to go fast with N/A, go V8. It's just how it is.

And another thing, this "I love the instant power of N/A" is cool and all, but it's a poor excuse for not wanting to go turbo. Get real, it is not more fun to drive a N/A 4 cylinder than a turbo 4 cylinder. That is why you see all these guys on here wanting to go turbo with their Honda motors. They are tired of being slow and want to get with the program, or they want to go fast for cheaper. That's it. If N/A is for you, then all power to you. But I think you are you a little naive if you think putting a turbo on your Honda motor is "cheaping out."

Vteckkid, this is a good thread for guys wanting to stay N/A and gain some power. You are an expert in it as well as all-mota. Slowdsm was just trying to help give some info, that's all. But I think that was a stupid comment all-mota posted about going turbo, that's why I posted.

Vteckidd
01-17-2010, 12:09 PM
this is my dyno run @ 20psi.

http://s899.photobucket.com/albums/ac195/killercolt_photos/?action=view&current=IMG_0172.jpg

i am not a stranger to making decent power.

Congrats its a Turbo car, wtf does that have to do with an NA honda?

MongolPup
01-17-2010, 12:19 PM
I personally think this thread has gotten retarded, Mike if you want it sanitized/split let me know.

Vteckidd
01-17-2010, 12:23 PM
how do you know that you only going to get 3-4 horse from running the lighter rods? if i am building an all motor car, i will spend that money to get that 3-4hp.


Because i know what im talking about. My engine builder tested TI rods for Omniman, and has done a ton of work with aluminum rods, A beams, H Beams, I Beams, etc.

If you were to take a motor making 240whp with EAGLE RODS ($300) and were to do nothing except CHANGE the rods out to TITANIUM ($1500 rods) the only gain you would see is from about 8500+ and it would be 3-5whp.

I dont know how to say this any simpler, but this thread is about KEEPING IT SIMPLE. That means most bang for the buck. If you can justify to a street car to buy rods that cost $1500 for 3-5whp of PEAK POWER, and also sacrificing reliability, then go for it. I wont.




increasing compression is only ne benefit of welding the combustion chamber. you will reduce significant piston weight from running a shorter dome. i am pretty sure you will free up significant amount of horse power to the wheel when the weight saving are combined with with a lighten crank, lighter rods, lighten flywheel, lighten wheels, 3 pucks clutch disc (more chatter but lighter than 6 or 4 pucks), behive spring (use a smaller retainer), narrow skirt pistons. you will have a better quench pad surface too which you can add a little more timing to pick up a little more power.

Show me results from lighter pistons vs off the shelf CP pistons. Show me results from knife edged cranks vs stock. Heavy rods vs light. etc.

The WHOLE POINT IF THIS THREAD is about KEEPING IT SIMPLE. Using off the shelf parts to make good RELIABLE power.

95% of all engine builds out there are fine with EAGLE Rods
95% of all engine builds out there are fine with off the shelf pistons

Most of these guys are on BUDGETS, they dont have $10,000 to spend on an NA Engine. most people have $2000-3000 tops.

Again you are trying to compare some all out race engine to a STREET ENGINE.



you are right. this thread is about keeping it simple. get everything done while the motor is out. spend a little extra money and have all the good bottom end and head mods. basically anything that require pulling the motor should be done ahead of time. this is important when you are paying someone to do the work for you because the money you pay for multiple shop visits can be use to buy the parts you needed to begin with. the complication is having to go back and explaining to your homeboy why you got dusted.


The methods you are recommending cost a ton more money with little better results. If they follow my methods they will made good power, be reliable, and if "they get dusted by their homeboy" so be it. Theres always someone faster.

You talk like 200-220whp isnt a lot. I cant name 1 person that has cracked 220whp with a B Series in the last 2 years NA. Where are all your builds that make tons of power?

My 200whp 1.8L CRX LOST to guys making 210-220whp out of 2.0 K Series or 2.2l H Series, and it didnt lose by much. It was a simple setup in a nice car.



vteckidd. i know you are the all motor expert. i know you know a lot about all motor setups. tell these forks on here the truth and not what they want to hear. 200hp is not enough to hang anymore. tell them they need to spend money to go fast. tell them this is 2010 and there are only 5 b series in the 300hp range because they only want to spend money on some off the shelf pistons and eagle rods.

The truth is more people have fun with a well rounded setup, than spending tons of money on parts that dont matter. That was the WHOLE POINT of this thread. Telling people you dont have to spend the most money, or buy the most trick parts, etc. Its about choosing the RIGHT parts.

If someone wants to try an build some crazy 300whp engine then obviously they arent on this site looking at this thread for advice.

200whp IS ENOUGH nowadays. Its perfectly fine. You arent going to beat 400-500whp cars, but if you are NA you already know that. Out of the 20 cars that dynoed at mainstreams dyno day yesterday, 1 cracked 200whp, there was about 10 in the 190whp range.

That says something.

Tbone on Honda-tech TRIED to build a 300whp NA B Series engine with about $20,000 he made 276whp. That was dry sumped, $1500 rods, $1000 custom pistons, Custom Cams, $2000 head work, $2500 ITBs, tons more trick stuff. I dont know about you, but who on here has that kind of money?

Vteckidd
01-17-2010, 12:27 PM
260hp. now that is not bad on pump gas for all motor. will we see some e85 or race gas with a little more timing to see if you will be the 6th person with 300hp all motor?

This isnt the Turbo Forum , E85 doesnt add HP like that lol Neither does Race Gas.


i am running a turbo because i think anything less than 500hp is a little boring. heck, i was told that you need 600hp on the street to be cool but that is a whole different discussion.

want to know the difference between a 400whp street car FWD and a 600whp street car FWD? nothing, they both have zero traction.

THIS IS THE NA FORUM, have you EVER built and NA Honda Engine ?



btw. there is a lot of e85 station around here now. has anyone try it on an all motor build on ia. this can be a simple and relatively cheap mod. you can definitely turn the timing up with e85.


You can tune an NA Engine on 93octance very efficiently without the need for race gas.

Again, most street cars run 11-12:1 compression which is fine with 93 octane. Simple switching to race gas and adding timing isnt going to get you power, if it does its VERY little.

The only way you use RACE GAS is if you run a 13=15:1 motor, in that instance your engine NEEDS higher octane for a more efficient burn. But at that compression you arent a street car anymore.

Vteckidd
01-17-2010, 12:28 PM
The one thing i DESPISE the most is people giving out bad information. Dont mean to jump on you but you are posting some stuff thats very wrong

all-mota
01-17-2010, 07:40 PM
itb

slowdsm
01-17-2010, 11:03 PM
na car is only fast in a light weight shell. most turbo honda are slow because they run a turbo that is too laggy. unless you running around with a gutted crx or eg civic, good luck winning.

my friend and i built a b18b 6 years ago. it has .040" over topline gsr pistons. he grinded some material off the bottom of pistons and zero out the weight with a scale.
he also grinded about 2lb off the crank, rods and stock pistons. the whole assemble are balanced afterward at advance machine shop. the head was decked to the service limit mark (about .024"). the block was .018". we got the head welded at a metal fabrication place in hiram, georgia. home ported head. i ported the roof of intake and exhaust port and smooth out the short radius. fidanza aluminum flywheel with some weight machined and drilled out. this included some weight drilled out off the friction surface of the flywheel. 3 pucks ceramic clutch disc made by clutch specialty in marietta for 75 bucks with stock pressure plate. crower cams, valve springs, and retainers. home made 4-1header . safc. dsm 380cc injectors (non turbo 4g63). lighten stock cam gears by drilling some weight off the spokes. hacked and ported stock intake. short ram intake. vp 100 octane. 8 degree advance with the distributor. 265psi compression reading on a mac tool compression tester. we were hoping for 285psi but bs topline rings gap were bigger than we like. the motor had about 15% leak down because of this. he got 215hp on a dynojet with civic si rims and 200hp with konig 17in rims. not too bad for a poor man all motor b series. it was in an integra so it was slow as hell. best 1/8 mile was 8.6s.

slowdsm
01-17-2010, 11:27 PM
what you don't realize is a 220whp plus na car will outrun turbo setups making 350whp because of a better power band and more traction. also 220whp plus cars normally run in the high 11 to low 12 second range at the track and i can't count how many times i've seen the turbo guys like you are talking about come no where close to those times.

a good example is my buddies crx it makes around the 230whp range maybe slightly more and runs 11.60's all day long other friend has a integra that makes well over 400whp and runs high tens and there is half a second between both of their times..

and for you to say that ones not as fun to drive as the other you obviously haven't drove both, and if you did the na car you drove couldn't have made anywhere near 200whp because in a light honda thats fun to drive. that is unless your idea of fun is spinning all the time

you need to pull out he first fast and furious movie and watch the part after dom smoke brian. listen to what he said about winning.

slowdsm
01-18-2010, 01:30 AM
The one thing i DESPISE the most is people giving out bad information. Dont mean to jump on you but you are posting some stuff thats very wrong



how am i wrong for telling forks to open their wallet alittle wider? you said it yourself that running lighter components make power. you want me to provide informations regarding horse power gain from running a lighter pistons which i don't have. what make you think you are going to gain hp from lighten rods and not lighten pistons. na setup is all about bragging how much power you can squeeze out of an anemic motor. 3-5hp here and there add up. saying that you should not waste money on titanium rods is like saying you should not waste your money on going na. for 1500-3000 bux, you can get way more hp. na is what people want. why not encourage them to spend extra money to get more power?

all-mota
01-18-2010, 09:53 AM
ftl

slowdsm
01-18-2010, 01:23 PM
all-mota. i forgot to response to your comparison between your friends' crx and integra. that is a nonsense comparison because one car is quit a bit heavy than the other. put that turbo engine into the crx and we can call it a comparison.


i want to thank vteckidd for disclosing some of the parts that na guys should use in their build. i have talked to a lot of na guys that don't even know that those components existed. sad! vteckidd. can you post in another thread an official parts list and mods for hardcore na guys who do not car about spending money. tell us what it will takes to make 300hp or very close to it.

SPOOLIN
01-18-2010, 02:38 PM
aluminum rods are better than Ti rods any day of the week.

to make 300 is takes k series plain and simple. (insert your internals here)

Vteckidd
01-18-2010, 02:54 PM
. can you post in another thread an official parts list and mods for hardcore na guys who do not car about spending money. tell us what it will takes to make 300hp or very close to it.

I wouldnt run a B Series, id run an H22 or a K24 way more cost effective.

As the WHP goes up , the longevity of the motor goes down drastically. Its pretty common for K24 medium street motors to make 290-300whp. H22s can make 250-260 pretty easily

B series if you are making over 260-270 its pretty much an all out race motor.

I cant really name the parts because they are usually all CUSTOM one off parts. theres only about 5 people in the WORLD who ever made over 300WHP NA with a B Series and most of them are race teams.

Skunk2
Eriks Racing

Those are the only 2 i can remember off the top of my head. Almost everyone runs K series now, B series is dead if you want to be competitive NA.

Vteckidd
01-18-2010, 02:55 PM
also remember this thread is damn near 4 years old, a lot has changed in 4 years i prob could update this

DustnU
01-18-2010, 02:58 PM
Lets see an update then!! I wanna build my Ls/V or swap the block for a B20 and put my ITR head on it. This thread is very helpfull but if you have better stuff lets hear it.

SPOOLIN
01-18-2010, 03:21 PM
B series is still king in the forced induction world, but you aint got anything if you have a b series NA car and are trying to really DO SOMETHING.

slowdsm
01-18-2010, 05:21 PM
2 years ago i bought 25 brand new k20a2 heads from a place called cylinder head exhange. they got it from some surplus auction and did not know what they have. i got them each for 500 bux and sold them for 1300-1500. within 3 months, 24 were gone. i kept one and just sold it last year. needless to say, there is a lot of people doing k series swap. one guy in florida who bought one of my head email me to tell me he made 365hp with a k24/k20A2 combo. he had 15:1 compression with e85.

Starrfire
01-18-2010, 06:32 PM
Please delete the garbage out of this thread. The retarded posts and my post as well, Thanks.

slowdsm
01-19-2010, 04:20 AM
i second that.

johnzm
03-30-2010, 12:39 PM
hey guys dont listen to vteckidd, he dont know jack shit about allmotor ;)

Vteckidd
03-30-2010, 01:00 PM
LOL

dirtragz
04-06-2010, 09:32 PM
hey guys dont listen to vteckidd, he dont know jack shit about allmotor ;)

his thread his post , the only way to settle this is go start your own if you can do better!

Vteckidd
04-06-2010, 09:54 PM
his thread his post , the only way to settle this is go start your own if you can do better!

thats a good friend of mine hes just talking shit :P

Gorilla Eg!
04-06-2010, 10:13 PM
great write up! reps given

dirtragz
04-22-2010, 09:37 PM
thats a good friend of mine hes just talking shit :P

oh ok well i had your back anyways lol , i got your header installed and drove it like 500 miles and some idiot pulled out in front of me and to keep from totaling my car i was forced to hop a curb and now shes got a flat spot n it :( its ok ins is payng me for the damage :) check out my avatar , oh and ill be headed down to scotty asap to get tuned

TakeItEazzy
07-27-2010, 11:48 PM
Thnx alot!! I'm real new to the game but ia helping, up

Blaton22
01-26-2011, 10:29 PM
I got a b18b1, i want to put a vtec head on it and run ls vtec. what is some good suggestions to what i should do to get some hp out of it. I want it to be pretty reliable.

RBS
01-27-2011, 11:38 AM
I got a b18b1, i want to put a vtec head on it and run ls vtec. what is some good suggestions to what i should do to get some hp out of it. I want it to be pretty reliable.


it comes down whether or not you do or dont have alot of money to spend. cheapest sure fire method of reliability is ARP studs, ARP bolts, JDM ITR pistons, and a EXPERIENCED guru assemble it.


a basemap or tune will definitely help it as well.

Blaton22
01-27-2011, 01:06 PM
it comes down whether or not you do or dont have alot of money to spend. cheapest sure fire method of reliability is ARP studs, ARP bolts, JDM ITR pistons, and a EXPERIENCED guru assemble it.


a basemap or tune will definitely help it as well.


I have the money. I dont want to throw all my money at it at one time though. Kind of as i go process.

With what you listed, what am i lookin at with WHP? just a rough estimate maybe?

RBS
01-27-2011, 01:12 PM
I have the money. I dont want to throw all my money at it at one time though. Kind of as i go process.

With what you listed, what am i lookin at with WHP? just a rough estimate maybe?


what i listed will support your bottom end, to an extent lol. Ive seen a ITR/B20B bottom ALL STOCK gsr head/cams make 170 @ 8000 rpms, all stock. roughly, give or take more or less.. it was years ago


you can "throw" some aftermarket cams in but at a certain point your head will not be able to flow anymore to support the cams, creating a bottleneck from power. i dont know if your understanding it but its the simplest i can put it LOL



EDIT: i found this, http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2068126, it will give you an idea of whats needed for power. keep in mind whats listed is only the MAJOR components, smaller detail oriented things arent listed and is up to your engine builder. results may vary

Black4DrEK
01-27-2011, 02:59 PM
^ Well put!

Blaton22
01-29-2011, 09:27 PM
Oh, ok. I appreciate the help! Ill post on here if i need anything else.

bobertizcool
02-16-2011, 10:28 AM
so true about the ls rods, mine broke from my ls not even a month after being put in and my friend had 3 motors blow on him cause of the rods being weak. i thought it was his fault, lol. turned out it wasnt.

b20vtecrr
02-21-2011, 03:09 AM
sick ass thread, i want an ls vtec now lol

SRKdrift
04-07-2011, 08:12 PM
he knows his stuff nice thread

christian
05-10-2011, 01:34 PM
nice thread man

chinitoxamor
11-10-2011, 12:16 PM
this helps a lot

jdm eg6
11-10-2011, 11:17 PM
i was wondering how much power i can get out of a gsr block with b16 head (poor mans type r)

heres a list of mods

b16 head: basically built like a type r head
type cams
dual valve springs
type r valves
type r intake mani with tb
and a mild port and polish
injectors not sure what to get
hytech tri- y headers with 2.5 exhaust piping

bottom end
je pistons 81 mm 11-1 compression
eagle rods
block guard
stock crank shaft

Vteckidd
11-11-2011, 08:51 AM
if its built right prob in the 185-195whp level on a dyno like mainstreams

cjonescrx
05-23-2012, 08:41 PM
Can anyone recommend a good machine shop in or around the Cumming area?

JGilbert312
06-29-2012, 09:56 PM
Good stuff