For those that don't like God

[Romeyo07]

Why? There's a story behind it I'm sure...just curious to know.

[Killer]

for one they've never experienced Him... (i'm not speakin for all of u so don't flip out and say F god and religion blah blah blah) i'm just saying when u've really been touched by God and felt His grace it's hard to deny Him.

[sararose]

Which "God" are you refering too? A bunch of different religions = a bunch of different gods ;)

[ahabion]

I'm sure they are basing it on the Christianity... they probably hate Him because they were never shown a genuine Fatherly love from their real father and so relate that to their Heavenly Father and deny Him or they want to look cool with their "I hate God, GO DARWIN" bandwagon friends or they are devil worshippers and are the sworn enemy of God... sad to say that they've already lost... a few millenia ago.

[Wurm]

god tryed to touch me in the wrong spot


roflmao

[ahabion]

^^lol thats pretty funnee... "its my wurm! not yours!!" Chronic Masturbator

[Hulud]

its not that i dont like him, there isnt one imo

[Mchnhead2k5]

its not that i dont like him, there isnt one imo

i'm more agnostic than atheist.

[Hulud]

i'm more agnostic than atheist.
i wouldnt say im athiest, its more that i cant prove there is or isnt, is what i meant to say

[quickdodge®]

I'm sure they are basing it on the Christianity... they probably hate Him because they were never shown a genuine Fatherly love from their real father and so relate that to their Heavenly Father and deny Him or they want to look cool with their "I hate God, GO DARWIN" bandwagon friends or they are devil worshippers and are the sworn enemy of God... sad to say that they've already lost... a few millenia ago.

You're goddamn stupid. Lolol. Later, QD.

[ShooterMcGavin]

:stupid:

[Hulud]

I'm sure they are basing it on the Christianity... they probably hate Him because they were never shown a genuine Fatherly love from their real father and so relate that to their Heavenly Father and deny Him or they want to look cool with their "I hate God, GO DARWIN" bandwagon friends or they are devil worshippers and are the sworn enemy of God... sad to say that they've already lost... a few millenia ago.
ignorance is bliss i guess.......


typical christian

people like you are teh reason there are christian stereotypes

[BABY J]

Yall know this is the part where I insert a GANGSTA ass paragraph to shut the Christians down... but I won't. Use the search function and you can find what I think on this subject.

[BABY J]

We actually NEED trailhorses... we NEED people who can't think for themselves. If you have ever been horsebackriding you will know what I mean... all u gotta do is kick the horse once, it KNOWS the trail b/c it goes the same route 20 times a day. Try to get it off the trail and you have a war on your hands. If it helps millions of people sleep at night to feel that they are working towards something then I have decided to just let them have it. If they can watch men women and kids die in the street for no reason while asking "God" for invisible help that never arrives and still believe in him that's okay. I'm all about letting people do what they wanna do.

[Romeyo07]

<~~~~have yet to be shut down. I think we've come to the conclusion of agreeing to disagree. I do thoroughly enjoy reading what you posts though...much more than just saying "ef God, you're a moron".

How does believing in God make someone not think for themselves? What makes my rationing that good anyway? Serial Killers think for themseleves too, not exactly the greatest people in the world. I'm sure they told themselves it was ok to do it...just because he thought for himself.

I guess I wanted more stories I.E. my so and so died and "God" didn't do anything about it.

[Hulud]

I guess I wanted more stories I.E. my so and so died and "God" didn't do anything about it.
we know thats what you wanted, cause you already have an answer for that, but obviously thats not how we feel

[Romeyo07]

Its for my own curiousity. I'm not trying to change anything about anyone here.

[Hulud]

Its for my own curiousity. I'm not trying to change anything about anyone here.
im jw but why did you have a specific answer in mind already then :thinking:

[ShooterMcGavin]

How does believing in God make someone not think for themselves? What makes my rationing that good anyway? Serial Killers think for themseleves too, not exactly the greatest people in the world. I'm sure they told themselves it was ok to do it...just because he thought for himself.


because it's easy to QUIT thinking for yourself at any moment because you recognize/believe that there's this omnipotent figure who already has a "plan" for you and your life anyway and whatever happens will just be a part of that "plan".

in fact that's the shit that boggles my mind the most. every christian who knows anything about their religion knows about free will and how god supposedly lets everyone make their own decisions, do their own thinking and do their own living. but then how does the fit into the "plan" he has for everyones life? :thinking: :screwy:

[Killer]

in fact that's the shit that boggles my mind the most. every christian who knows anything about their religion knows about free will and how god supposedly lets everyone make their own decisions, do their own thinking and do their own living. but then how does the fit into the "plan" he has for everyones life? :thinking: :screwy:

that in itself is a huge battle for most christians.. but it's kinda like u have two paths u can take.. ur own will, or Gods will.... but u still have to choose to obey God and have faith.. so it's still ur choice.... but seriously good point.. i've asked that question many a time....

[Killer]

If they can watch men women and kids die in the street for no reason while asking "God" for invisible help that never arrives and still believe in him that's okay. I'm all about letting people do what they wanna do.

first of all... how can u say that God's help never arrives???
God's help arrives exactly when it's supposed to.. not when u want it to.. by His will not ur own... There have been plenty of times i wanted somethin or felt i needed it.. i would pray for help.. and ur right.. it seemed like it never came... BUT i was wrong it came exactly when i needed it. God could answer every prayer.. but sometimes unanswered prayers are the answer themselves. my :2cents:

[Wurm]

jesus had sars

[Killer]

its not that i dont like him, there isnt one imo

i respect ur opinion.. and whether u'll acknowledge my God or not... I've heard plenty of non christians say "there has to be something keeping this world in order" and i completely agree... if i'm wrong on what's "out there" then i'm wrong, but i don't see how people can deny there being something greater that made this world with absolutely everything it needs to sustain itself..

[ShooterMcGavin]

that in itself is a huge battle for most christians.. but it's kinda like u have two paths u can take.. ur own will, or Gods will.... but u still have to choose to obey God and have faith.. so it's still ur choice.... but seriously good point.. i've asked that question many a time....

but that's not really the case because isn't it one and the same? god has a plan for u the moment ur born right? so whether or not u choose to live by his will or ur will, it's still part of something that's already been predestined by him. whether ur mother theresa or hitler, god (if u believe there is one) planned for them to live the way they did the moment they were born.

[ahabion]

You're goddamn stupid. Lolol. Later, QD.

ever heard of sarcasm

[BABY J]

first of all... how can u say that God's help never arrives???
God's help arrives exactly when it's supposed to.. not when u want it to.. by His will not ur own... There have been plenty of times i wanted somethin or felt i needed it.. i would pray for help.. and ur right.. it seemed like it never came... BUT i was wrong it came exactly when i needed it. God could answer every prayer.. but sometimes unanswered prayers are the answer themselves. my :2cents:

Typical. "God works in mysterious ways" crap. LOL. Seriously. Christians have less answers than a 5 year old in Calc 2. And when they are cornered it's ALWAYS the same

--> it's not meant to be understood

--> gotta have faith

--> God works in mysterious ways.

Well guess what, when Malachi Chapter 3 wants 10% of ALL my increase then dammit it IS meant to be understood. Funny how "God" can be so specific about the percentage but can't prove his existance in the LEAST way.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. When I was a kid, I believed in the Tooth Fairy. I even had evidence of the Tooth Fairy's existence. I'd go to bed and leave my tooth in a glass of water - and when I got up the next day, not only was the tooth gone, but there was money there! *gasp!* Surely that proves there's a Tooth Fairy?!!!

Ultimately, it's up to the people who assert the positive (that God exists) to prove their claim. If I tell you there's a pink and purple invisible dragon in my bathroom, it's not up to anyone to prove there isn't. My pink and purple dragon is invisible, so your claim that you can't see it doesn't prove it isn't there. But can I prove it IS there? No - even though it's my responsibility to do so.

There are countless Christians (and others) who claim that they know God is real because they pray and get answers. I'm just wondering though, why it is that the children who beg God to be saved from their molestor aren't answered? Why are people who starve to death, not answered? Why were six million Jews not answered some decades back? Unfortunately, prayer is not evidence.

According to Christian theology (you fuckers think I am just talking but I STUDIED religion in college), though, prayer ought to be evidence. Look at what their bible says:

John 14:13-14
"And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it."

Matthew 7:7-8
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."

John 16:23-24
"Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you... Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full."

These verses tell the Christian that they can ask for ANYTHING AT ALL and it WILL be given. Now, either Christians aren't asking God to end starvation and disease - or Jesus doesn't answer prayers. There are no conditions applied to these verses. Jesus just tells them to ask, and they'll get.

At the end of the day, God HAS to be something you can only personally experience as a feeling. And even then you (in my mind) must WANT to. You people KILL me w/ the "I KNOW HE'S REAL" bit. You can't know it, because if you knew it you could teach me --> and him --> and her... and every1 else... like a math formula and I would know it. It must be an individual experience and impossible to share-i have not felt it, and unless He performs MIRACLES like He did when he walked the Earth... you know, miracles like the tooth fairy did back in the day, then I will continue to be a good person, treat people right, help people when I can like my MOM taught me. If I end up in hell b/c of that, then God has more issues than a few IMO.

IMO, God is and always will be just a comfort zone for insecure and weak individuals. HE is a simple made up story. I think it is likely that the important people existed and all prophets mentioned in all books of religion were true, but just common heroes of humanity. They were no more important than John F Kennedy or Martin Luther King Jr., or Brett and Leisa Lowenthall. You think it is acually logical that a spiritual world exists? If so, you need to be sterlized or liquidated. Religious people might as well believe in Santa Claus. When you die, you will enter an eternal world of darkness and thousands of years will pass and the Sun explode and you will not know a thing about it. Maybe stories of gods were just remnants of folklore of incredible encounters and interactions with extraterrestrials, maybe we are the decendants of them. No matter how extraordinary that may sound, it is in fact more logical than the pathetic spiritual and ILLOGICAL dream all the weak religious people think of. Imagine the world without religion, but just simple morals and rules. There would be minimal fighting. This is the way it is.. BIBLE/QUR'ON= WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. I don't think anyone can tell me differently. When someone hears me lay out the blunt truth about death and life, I know it hurts in their heart but you hide it and fear it, but to accept and aknowledge that there is no fantasy world after death, you will enter a whole new plain of confidence and power. God is a sense, without all these primal minds thinking of the existance of the God, they would be insane, they couldn't manage otherwise. They are all like sheep. I know for sure eventually one day, people will look past religion. If you are smart you can see it happening today all over the world. For it to be SO sacred, there are more people DEAD b/c of it than anything else. The WORLD will realize this one day and say FUCK IT. The bible has as much weight to me as Mother Goose Rhymes and Aesop's Fables.

[ShooterMcGavin]

i respect ur opinion.. and whether u'll acknowledge my God or not... I've heard plenty of non christians say "there has to be something keeping this world in order" and i completely agree... if i'm wrong on what's "out there" then i'm wrong, but i don't see how people can deny there being something greater that made this world with absolutely everything it needs to sustain itself..

first off, if u think this world today is in "order" then either ur definition of order is a very loose one or maybe u and i aren't living in the same world. if u don't get what i mean, open up cnn.com and just look over the top news stories.

secondly, why can u not see how ppl deny that there's something greater out there? i can easily deny of the existence of something greater, just because we as humans might not be able to COMPREHEND the intricacies of this world, nature and all the living things around us and how we came to be about, does not in any way shape or form give REASON OR PROOF that something "greater" exists.

[2.0civic]

Typical. "God works in mysterious ways" crap. LOL. Seriously. Christians have less answers than a 5 year old in Calc 2. And when they are cornered it's ALWAYS the same

--> it's not meant to be understood

--> gotta have faith

--> God works in mysterious ways.

Well guess what, when Malachi Chapter 3 wants 10% of ALL my increase then dammit it IS meant to be understood. Funny how "God" can be so specific about the percentage but can't prove his existance in the LEAST way.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. When I was a kid, I believed in the Tooth Fairy. I even had evidence of the Tooth Fairy's existence. I'd go to bed and leave my tooth in a glass of water - and when I got up the next day, not only was the tooth gone, but there was money there! *gasp!* Surely that proves there's a Tooth Fairy?!!!

Ultimately, it's up to the people who assert the positive (that God exists) to prove their claim. If I tell you there's a pink and purple invisible dragon in my bathroom, it's not up to anyone to prove there isn't. My pink and purple dragon is invisible, so your claim that you can't see it doesn't prove it isn't there. But can I prove it IS there? No - even though it's my responsibility to do so.

There are countless Christians (and others) who claim that they know God is real because they pray and get answers. I'm just wondering though, why it is that the children who beg God to be saved from their molestor aren't answered? Why are people who starve to death, not answered? Why were six million Jews not answered some decades back? Unfortunately, prayer is not evidence.

According to Christian theology (you fuckers think I am just talking but I STUDIED religion in college), though, prayer ought to be evidence. Look at what their bible says:

John 14:13-14
"And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it."

Matthew 7:7-8
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."

John 16:23-24
"Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you... Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full."

These verses tell the Christian that they can ask for ANYTHING AT ALL and it WILL be given. Now, either Christians aren't asking God to end starvation and disease - or Jesus doesn't answer prayers. There are no conditions applied to these verses. Jesus just tells them to ask, and they'll get.

At the end of the day, God HAS to be something you can only personally experience as a feeling. And even then you (in my mind) must WANT to. You people KILL me w/ the "I KNOW HE'S REAL" bit. You can't know it, because if you knew it you could teach me --> and him --> and her... and every1 else... like a math formula and I would know it. It must be an individual experience and impossible to share-i have not felt it, and unless He performs MIRACLES like He did when he walked the Earth... you know, miracles like the tooth fairy did back in the day, then I will continue to be a good person, treat people right, help people when I can like my MOM taught me. If I end up in hell b/c of that, then God has more issues than a few IMO.

IMO, God is and always will be just a comfort zone for insecure and weak individuals. HE is a simple made up story. I think it is likely that the important people existed and all prophets mentioned in all books of religion were true, but just common heroes of humanity. They were no more important than John F Kennedy or Majrtin Luther King Jr. You think it is acually logical that a spiritual world exists? If so, you need to be sterlized or liquidated. Religious people might as well believe in Santa Claus. When you die, you will enter an eternal world of darkness and thousands of years will pass and the Sun explode and you will not know a thing about it. Maybe stories of gods were just remnants of folklore of incredible encounters and interactions with extraterrestrials, maybe we are the decendants of them. No matter how extraordinary that may sound, it is in fact more logical than the pathetic spiritual and ILLOGICAL dream all the weak religious people think of. Imagine the world without religion, but just simple morals and rules. There would be minimal fighting. This is the way it is.. BIBLE/QUR'ON= WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. I don't think anyone can tell me differently. When someone hears me lay out the blunt truth about death and life, I know it hurts in their heart but you hide it and fear it, but to accept and aknowledge that there is no fantasy world after death, you will enter a whole new plain of confidence and power. God is a sense, without all these primal minds thinking of the existance of the God, they would be insane, they couldn't manage otherwise. They are all like sheep. I know for sure eventually one day, people will look past religion. If you are smart you can see it happening today all over the world. For it to be SO sacred, there are more people DEAD b/c of it than anything else. The WORLD will realize this one day and say FUCK IT. The bible has as much weight to me as Mother Goose Rhymes and Aesop's Fables.


thats the mst concise(sp?), thoguht out post ive ever seen on IA. you mentioned a few points i was going to bring up. my biggest issue is that if we are "gods people" how come on the way to the varsity i was about 20 homeless people?? Why is it that he lets "his people" suffer like they do?? Everyone answers this with"to see if you waver from faith" well hell yeah! if i was homeless then i would waiver and tell god to EAD.

[2.0civic]

christians have had over 2000 years to prove some shit and havent done it so when there is proof, i might start believing

[ShooterMcGavin]

Typical. "God works in mysterious ways" crap. LOL. Seriously. Christians have less answers than a 5 year old in Calc 2. And when they are cornered it's ALWAYS the same

--> it's not meant to be understood

--> gotta have faith

--> God works in mysterious ways.

Well guess what, when Malachi Chapter 3 wants 10% of ALL my increase then dammit it IS meant to be understood. Funny how "God" can be so specific about the percentage but can't prove his existance in the LEAST way.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. When I was a kid, I believed in the Tooth Fairy. I even had evidence of the Tooth Fairy's existence. I'd go to bed and leave my tooth in a glass of water - and when I got up the next day, not only was the tooth gone, but there was money there! *gasp!* Surely that proves there's a Tooth Fairy?!!!

Ultimately, it's up to the people who assert the positive (that God exists) to prove their claim. If I tell you there's a pink and purple invisible dragon in my bathroom, it's not up to anyone to prove there isn't. My pink and purple dragon is invisible, so your claim that you can't see it doesn't prove it isn't there. But can I prove it IS there? No - even though it's my responsibility to do so.

There are countless Christians (and others) who claim that they know God is real because they pray and get answers. I'm just wondering though, why it is that the children who beg God to be saved from their molestor aren't answered? Why are people who starve to death, not answered? Why were six million Jews not answered some decades back? Unfortunately, prayer is not evidence.

According to Christian theology (you fuckers think I am just talking but I STUDIED religion in college), though, prayer ought to be evidence. Look at what their bible says:

John 14:13-14
"And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it."

Matthew 7:7-8
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."

John 16:23-24
"Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you... Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full."

These verses tell the Christian that they can ask for ANYTHING AT ALL and it WILL be given. Now, either Christians aren't asking God to end starvation and disease - or Jesus doesn't answer prayers. There are no conditions applied to these verses. Jesus just tells them to ask, and they'll get.

At the end of the day, God HAS to be something you can only personally experience as a feeling. And even then you (in my mind) must WANT to. You people KILL me w/ the "I KNOW HE'S REAL" bit. You can't know it, because if you knew it you could teach me --> and him --> and her... and every1 else... like a math formula and I would know it. It must be an individual experience and impossible to share-i have not felt it, and unless He performs MIRACLES like He did when he walked the Earth... you know, miracles like the tooth fairy did back in the day, then I will continue to be a good person, treat people right, help people when I can like my MOM taught me. If I end up in hell b/c of that, then God has more issues than a few IMO.

IMO, God is and always will be just a comfort zone for insecure and weak individuals. HE is a simple made up story. I think it is likely that the important people existed and all prophets mentioned in all books of religion were true, but just common heroes of humanity. They were no more important than John F Kennedy or Martin Luther King Jr., or Brett and Leisa Lowenthall. You think it is acually logical that a spiritual world exists? If so, you need to be sterlized or liquidated. Religious people might as well believe in Santa Claus. When you die, you will enter an eternal world of darkness and thousands of years will pass and the Sun explode and you will not know a thing about it. Maybe stories of gods were just remnants of folklore of incredible encounters and interactions with extraterrestrials, maybe we are the decendants of them. No matter how extraordinary that may sound, it is in fact more logical than the pathetic spiritual and ILLOGICAL dream all the weak religious people think of. Imagine the world without religion, but just simple morals and rules. There would be minimal fighting. This is the way it is.. BIBLE/QUR'ON= WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. I don't think anyone can tell me differently. When someone hears me lay out the blunt truth about death and life, I know it hurts in their heart but you hide it and fear it, but to accept and aknowledge that there is no fantasy world after death, you will enter a whole new plain of confidence and power. God is a sense, without all these primal minds thinking of the existance of the God, they would be insane, they couldn't manage otherwise. They are all like sheep. I know for sure eventually one day, people will look past religion. If you are smart you can see it happening today all over the world. For it to be SO sacred, there are more people DEAD b/c of it than anything else. The WORLD will realize this one day and say FUCK IT. The bible has as much weight to me as Mother Goose Rhymes and Aesop's Fables.

+29083476589723645 :goodjob: (when i can again :D )

[Killer]

but that's not really the case because isn't it one and the same? god has a plan for u the moment ur born right? so whether or not u choose to live by his will or ur will, it's still part of something that's already been predestined by him. whether ur mother theresa or hitler, god (if u believe there is one) planned for them to live the way they did the moment they were born.

again man... that's a question i ask all the time... and i'm a christian.. what i told u is the most common answer i've heard.. and i normally come back with something like u said.. because to me it does and doesn't make sense.. u know like God testing us... if He know's i'm gonna fail.. why's He testing me?? that kinda stuff. so for real i see ur point and i don't have a better explanation for it! wish i had some answers for u man.

[Killer]

christians have had over 2000 years to prove some shit and havent done it so when there is proof, i might start believing

non christians have had over 2000 years to disprove and they still haven't either... so ur point.. not a point at all... nice try though.

[Killer]

thats the mst concise(sp?), thoguht out post ive ever seen on IA. you mentioned a few points i was going to bring up. my biggest issue is that if we are "gods people" how come on the way to the varsity i was about 20 homeless people?? Why is it that he lets "his people" suffer like they do?? Everyone answers this with"to see if you waver from faith" well hell yeah! if i was homeless then i would waiver and tell god to EAD.

and that is y u would stay homeless...

[ShooterMcGavin]

again man... that's a question i ask all the time... and i'm a christian.. what i told u is the most common answer i've heard.. and i normally come back with something like u said.. because to me it does and doesn't make sense.. u know like God testing us... if He know's i'm gonna fail.. why's He testing me?? that kinda stuff. so for real i see ur point and i don't have a better explanation for it! wish i had some answers for u man.

well in that case then i give u credit for owning up to the fact that u don't know and not throwing the usual lame excuses i've heard. :goodjob: +1

[Killer]

first off, if u think this world today is in "order" then either ur definition of order is a very loose one or maybe u and i aren't living in the same world. if u don't get what i mean, open up cnn.com and just look over the top news stories.

secondly, why can u not see how ppl deny that there's something greater out there? i can easily deny of the existence of something greater, just because we as humans might not be able to COMPREHEND the intricacies of this world, nature and all the living things around us and how we came to be about, does not in any way shape or form give REASON OR PROOF that something "greater" exists.


i don't mean people are in order.. i'll give it to u the world is in shambles right now... i mean the cycle of earth it's self.. we need oxygen, plants make oxygen, we need to be a certain temp.. we're set in space at that perfect distance from the sun... all those kind of things.

[ahabion]

doesnt every religion have something to prove? whos to say that in budhism, when you die you are reincarnated as an animal? Islamics (not sure if thats the proper religious term...) that say when you die, you're surrounded by 1000 women... the jews and the palistinians that cant decide whose land Abraham promised them... the voodoo that can cause someone to get sick or kill them... dont they all have something to prove?

evolution even has something to prove.

[ShooterMcGavin]

non christians have had over 2000 years to disprove and they still haven't either... so ur point.. not a point at all... nice try though.

but it IS a point though.

1) they don't have to disprove anything, nonbelievers aren't the ones with a story about something/someone almighty that is responsible for everything that happens around us.

2) think of it this way, say i believe in the pink purple invisible dragon that baby j mentioned. would nonbelievers REALLY have to disprove that? i mean seriously think about that.

[ShooterMcGavin]

i don't mean people are in order.. i'll give it to u the world is in shambles right now... i mean the cycle of earth it's self.. we need oxygen, plants make oxygen, we need to be a certain temp.. we're set in space at that perfect distance from the sun... all those kind of things.

refer to the 2nd part of what i said then ;)

[Killer]

Typical. "God works in mysterious ways" crap. LOL. Seriously. Christians have less answers than a 5 year old in Calc 2. And when they are cornered it's ALWAYS the same

--> it's not meant to be understood

--> gotta have faith

--> God works in mysterious ways.

Well guess what, when Malachi Chapter 3 wants 10% of ALL my increase then dammit it IS meant to be understood. Funny how "God" can be so specific about the percentage but can't prove his existance in the LEAST way.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. When I was a kid, I believed in the Tooth Fairy. I even had evidence of the Tooth Fairy's existence. I'd go to bed and leave my tooth in a glass of water - and when I got up the next day, not only was the tooth gone, but there was money there! *gasp!* Surely that proves there's a Tooth Fairy?!!!

Ultimately, it's up to the people who assert the positive (that God exists) to prove their claim. If I tell you there's a pink and purple invisible dragon in my bathroom, it's not up to anyone to prove there isn't. My pink and purple dragon is invisible, so your claim that you can't see it doesn't prove it isn't there. But can I prove it IS there? No - even though it's my responsibility to do so.

There are countless Christians (and others) who claim that they know God is real because they pray and get answers. I'm just wondering though, why it is that the children who beg God to be saved from their molestor aren't answered? Why are people who starve to death, not answered? Why were six million Jews not answered some decades back? Unfortunately, prayer is not evidence.

According to Christian theology (you fuckers think I am just talking but I STUDIED religion in college), though, prayer ought to be evidence. Look at what their bible says:

John 14:13-14
"And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it."

Matthew 7:7-8
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."

John 16:23-24
"Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you... Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full."

These verses tell the Christian that they can ask for ANYTHING AT ALL and it WILL be given. Now, either Christians aren't asking God to end starvation and disease - or Jesus doesn't answer prayers. There are no conditions applied to these verses. Jesus just tells them to ask, and they'll get.

At the end of the day, God HAS to be something you can only personally experience as a feeling. And even then you (in my mind) must WANT to. You people KILL me w/ the "I KNOW HE'S REAL" bit. You can't know it, because if you knew it you could teach me --> and him --> and her... and every1 else... like a math formula and I would know it. It must be an individual experience and impossible to share-i have not felt it, and unless He performs MIRACLES like He did when he walked the Earth... you know, miracles like the tooth fairy did back in the day, then I will continue to be a good person, treat people right, help people when I can like my MOM taught me. If I end up in hell b/c of that, then God has more issues than a few IMO.

IMO, God is and always will be just a comfort zone for insecure and weak individuals. HE is a simple made up story. I think it is likely that the important people existed and all prophets mentioned in all books of religion were true, but just common heroes of humanity. They were no more important than John F Kennedy or Martin Luther King Jr., or Brett and Leisa Lowenthall. You think it is acually logical that a spiritual world exists? If so, you need to be sterlized or liquidated. Religious people might as well believe in Santa Claus. When you die, you will enter an eternal world of darkness and thousands of years will pass and the Sun explode and you will not know a thing about it. Maybe stories of gods were just remnants of folklore of incredible encounters and interactions with extraterrestrials, maybe we are the decendants of them. No matter how extraordinary that may sound, it is in fact more logical than the pathetic spiritual and ILLOGICAL dream all the weak religious people think of. Imagine the world without religion, but just simple morals and rules. There would be minimal fighting. This is the way it is.. BIBLE/QUR'ON= WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. I don't think anyone can tell me differently. When someone hears me lay out the blunt truth about death and life, I know it hurts in their heart but you hide it and fear it, but to accept and aknowledge that there is no fantasy world after death, you will enter a whole new plain of confidence and power. God is a sense, without all these primal minds thinking of the existance of the God, they would be insane, they couldn't manage otherwise. They are all like sheep. I know for sure eventually one day, people will look past religion. If you are smart you can see it happening today all over the world. For it to be SO sacred, there are more people DEAD b/c of it than anything else. The WORLD will realize this one day and say FUCK IT. The bible has as much weight to me as Mother Goose Rhymes and Aesop's Fables.

my point is u can't tell me prayers aren't answered...

and u can't take the bible so literally.. Jesus spoke in parables all the time.. So why wouldn't God? I mean think about it... If God Literally Answered EVERY single prayer... the world would not be in existance. And i don't know the verse so i'm sorry for not quoting actual scripture but it also says in the bible that God has a deaf ear to non believers. until they believe and ask for repentence.

[2.0civic]

non christians have had over 2000 years to disprove and they still haven't either... so ur point.. not a point at all... nice try though.


you are trying to prove something exists. If there is no FACTUAL evidence of it, then it clearly doesnt exist. as far as christianity goes, it has another major flaw. You can live your life doing shitty deeds but as long as you are "saved" before you die, and "repent" your sins, you get into heaven.

[ahabion]

well in that case then i give u credit for owning up to the fact that u don't know and not throwing the usual lame excuses i've heard. :goodjob: +1

christianity is more than a religion for those who believe in it, its an ongoing relationship. Its completely faith based... its hard enough for folks to stay committed to that special person they see everyday but how bout saying committed to that which you dont see?

i had a classmate when i was in school a few yrs back ask me "why do you still believe in that stuff. Religion is only for those who need a reasoning after death. We're beyond that."

my answer to him was, 95% of the world believes that there is more to life than this here on earth, that there is something else beyond life. Even before the Europeans came to america, the natives believed in something... the tribes of africa and asia believe in something... how is it that almost an entire world, "civilized or uncivilized" believes in something, and still say that there is nothing beyond our human life?

[2.0civic]

but it IS a point though.

1) they don't have to disprove anything, nonbelievers aren't the ones with a story about something/someone almighty that is responsible for everything that happens around us.

2) think of it this way, say i believe in the pink purple invisible dragon that baby j mentioned. would nonbelievers REALLY have to disprove that? i mean seriously think about that.

lol, exactly. sorry i didnt see thistil after i posted my last post. Good wording

[ahabion]

you are trying to prove something exists. If there is no FACTUAL evidence of it, then it clearly doesnt exist. as far as christianity goes, it has another major flaw. You can live your life doing shitty deeds but as long as you are "saved" before you die, and "repent" your sins, you get into heaven.

then you're not technically saved then are you? christianity is a lifestyle and longlasting relationship... those who truly believe in christianity live it.

[ahabion]

but it IS a point though.

1) they don't have to disprove anything, nonbelievers aren't the ones with a story about something/someone almighty that is responsible for everything that happens around us.

2) think of it this way, say i believe in the pink purple invisible dragon that baby j mentioned. would nonbelievers REALLY have to disprove that? i mean seriously think about that.

i guess we'll go in a loophole the same way that you cant prove or dissapprove it, wher eyou can say, can you prove that it does exist?

[BABY J]

my point is u can't tell me prayers aren't answered...

and u can't take the bible so literally.. Jesus spoke in parables all the time.. So why wouldn't God? I mean think about it... If God Literally Answered EVERY single prayer... the world would not be in existance. And i don't know the verse so i'm sorry for not quoting actual scripture but it also says in the bible that God has a deaf ear to non believers. until they believe and ask for repentence.

What happened to free will? This is SOO not free will. This is coersion. SO God wants to coerce us into following him... I see. God is on a MAJOR ego trip then huh? "Hey guys, look at me! I'm God... if you say my name I will give you cookies!"

If God wants some1 to blindly FOLLOW him w/out proof of who He is, then what makes him any different than David Koresh??

[ShooterMcGavin]

my answer to him was, 95% of the world believes that there is more to life than this here on earth, that there is something else beyond life.
guess i'm part of that 5% then...

[2.0civic]

then you're not technically saved then are you? christianity is a lifestyle and longlasting relationship... those who truly believe in christianity live it.

thats my point. i used to go to church til i figured out that it was a gathering of fucking hypocrites. not going to say where but i as at a party one night, and saw my old preachers son do a line of coke and the next day, be teaching little kids right and wrong....although thats probably the worst situation ive seen, i see it on a daily basis. Hell, there was a camp thing at the gwinnett civic center last week.....i work at bass pro and we have to get parents to sign a waiver to let you climb the wall.....i caught over 40 people LYING saying they were the kids parents and when i checked id's, most of them didnt share last names or were in different states. WTF happened to thou shall not lie? then they lie over petty shit like that

[ShooterMcGavin]

What happened to free will? This is SOO not free will. This is coersion. SO God wants to coerce us into following him... I see. God is on a MAJOR ego trip then huh? "Hey guys, look at me! I'm God... if you say my name I will give you cookies!"
funny that u said that, ever seen devil's advocate? that just reminded me of pacino's rant at the end about how god is a tease...

[2.0civic]

funny that u said that, ever seen devil's advocate? that just reminded me of pacino's rant at the end about how god is a tease...


i ad to watch that movie about 3 times to finally get it...granted i was in like 5th grade or something then

[2.0civic]

started dying off a bit

[BABY J]

As posted from ME in another thread... then I am done w/ this:


Hmmm... in my mind --> anyone with a love for truth outside of himself/herself has to start with NO belief in God, and THEN look for evidence of such a God. That person needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural/spiritual power. All the people I write e-mails to or talk to about their faith are still often are still stuck at this "searching" stage. Me NOT believing in it puts me at a point where I HAVE ARRIVED, while they are still searching. Hmmm. The belief in a higher power, but NOT in "God" (as we know it) is easy for me.



The "I BELIEVE IN GOD" thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life's big picture, some rules to live by. So, I'm saying, "I believe there is no God... at least as we know it. I think we ALL as a people have missed the BIG picture.



Having taken that step in the belief of NOTHING, it informs every moment of my life. I'm not greedy. I have love... I love blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards --> and that has to be enough for me. Everything in the world is plenty for me. It seems just rude to beg the invisible for more... some HEAVEN when there can be heaven here on Earth at times. Just the love of my family that raised me and the family I'm raising now is enough that I don't "need" heaven. I won the huge genetic lottery and I get joy, and I get to ENjoy it every day.



Believing there's no God (as it is taught) means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness of other people that I can talk to and look at and touch. That's good; b/c it makes me want to be more thoughtful --> I have to try to treat people right the first time around instead of repinting to "God" later on. Why should GOD 4give me for offendign BOB? Shouldn't BOB forgive me himself?



Believing there's no God stops me from being narrow-minded. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we as people can agree on reality, and I can use this reality to keep learning where we are wrong and could all improve. We can all keep adjusting, so we can REALLY learn to communicate no matter where we are from and what we believe in w/ "God" outta the picture. I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less (FUCK YOU). But all obscenity in the world is less insulting than, "It's how I was brought up" and "my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that's always fun. It means I'm learning something.



Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, my life, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just "testing us"... that suffering is something we all may be able to help others with in the future. I have seen people cry helplessly in the middle of the street for invisible help from God that never arrives. Some God. But if I believe in US, then WE should come to the rescue of that person in the street. CAUSE GOD IS NOT GOING TO!!! A God, if there was one, would want US to help that man... GET A CLUE!!! No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future... but only if WE as PEOPLE, and I mean ALL FUCKING PEOPLE help EACH OTHER!!!



Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and touch/taste that make this life the best life I will ever have... how can "heaven" compare if all of my friends and family will not be there? THIS is likely the best life I will ever have. I SERISOULY doubt the angels can work it like my girl Michelle... LOL.



K, seriously again. If there is a God, I imagine he is laughing at the people who are asking for MORE (heaven, prayers, streets of gold, angels), when he has provided everything that we will ever need RIGHT HERE... each other.

[ahabion]

thats my point. i used to go to church til i figured out that it was a gathering of fucking hypocrites. not going to say where but i as at a party one night, and saw my old preachers son do a line of coke and the next day, be teaching little kids right and wrong....although thats probably the worst situation ive seen, i see it on a daily basis. Hell, there was a camp thing at the gwinnett civic center last week.....i work at bass pro and we have to get parents to sign a waiver to let you climb the wall.....i caught over 40 people LYING saying they were the kids parents and when i checked id's, most of them didnt share last names or were in different states. WTF happened to thou shall not lie? then they lie over petty shit like that

i dont doubt that for a second... in fact, i am a preachers kid LoL... but those are the bad apples like in any community that make christianity like that "oh god, here comes one of them... lets avoid them before they start preaching to us" type of stereotype. Dont look at others to be examples in a Christain lifestyle... look to the bible for that. God knows that my church is full of hypocrites and folks wanting "power" or positions of influence within the church... but you live your life the way that you want, not by them.

[2.0civic]

i dont doubt that for a second... in fact, i am a preachers kid LoL... but those are the bad apples like in any community that make christianity like that "oh god, here comes one of them... lets avoid them before they start preaching to us" type of stereotype. Dont look at others to be examples in a Christain lifestyle... look to the bible for that. God knows that my church is full of hypocrites and folks wanting "power" or positions of influence within the church... but you live your life the way that you want, not by them.


thats one of many reasons i dislike christianity. that would be kinda like me working at kroger, telling you i love my job, and buying publix stock (nonetrily wise, it makes sense to suit YOU but as far as religion aka job in this example, not the better good of the company) i know that was a shitty example of the hypocracy but thats basically all i see

[ahabion]

Nice write up babyj, very well done. What gets me about other religions and christianity inluded, is when they are trying to force feed you their religion. I myself as a christian, really dont like that at all... can you really force feed someone your beliefs and ideals??? like the jehova's witnesses that come knocking at your door... the biblical readers ont he street yelling at how damned you are if you continue in your unholy path... i think thats also what turns others folks off.

[2.0civic]

Nice write up babyj,....the biblical readers ont he street yelling at how damned you are if you continue in your unholy path... i think thats also what turns others folks off.

yup. but im only qouting a small portion cause at a falcons game one time, this guy was telling us that we were all going to hell for not being in church on sunday.....do i need to point out why this was ironically funny

[Jaimecbr900]

Why do these discussions always come full circle back to "show me proof or I don't believe"?????

Why is it that you guys can't do something as simple as look up the DEFINITION of "faith"? No where in the definition of faith does it describe it having "proof". Why is that? Because "proof", like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

What is proof to me may not be proof to Baby J. What is proof to Baby J may not be proof to me. Does that CHANGE the fact that I feel something? It shouldn't, and it doesn't.

Blind faith is one thing, and common sense is another (although everyone's common sense threshold is different too).

My point is simple: It is an impossible puzzle to decipher because some people REQUIRE to be struck by a lightning bolt before they believe AND the believers do a very weak attempt in being a lightning rod.

Some people believe, some people don't. It's really that simple. No need to find 5 tails on the cat or reinvent the wheel. There are some people that are NEVER gonna get it.

Ironically enough if there really is no God, what does an Atheist have to loose by worshiping God? Sounds to me like it'd be the surest bet ever in the Universe. If there is no God, no harm done because there is no consequence. If there is, then he/she would of made the right decision.

The real bottom line is that each and everyone of us WILL have to deal with the consequences of our decisions to believe or not believe. Noone can make that decision for you, try as they might. So for ME, I'm placing my faith on something that makes far more sense to ME than we merely appeared after a "bang".

One thing some of you guys are right about is that my decision certainly let's ME sleep better at night. And when it's all said and done, that's really the only one I can ever control......me.

[Jaimecbr900]

yup. but im only qouting a small portion cause at a falcons game one time, this guy was telling us that we were all going to hell for not being in church on sunday.....do i need to point out why this was ironically funny

Because HE wasn't at church either????? :lmfao:

That is funny. :lmfao:

[Jaimecbr900]

BTW, I'm not bashing anyone nor am I trying to convert anyone.

If you ask many people a question, you very well may get very different answers.

Many of you are clearly very intelligent people. It is obvious by the way some of you post. It is actually very nice to see intelligent people that can carry on a debate w/o resorting to unnecessary low blows. :goodjob:

[4dmin]

There isn't anything to like/dislike... i dont' believe in your GOD. ;)

[ISAtlanta300]

thats one of many reasons i dislike christianity. that would be kinda like me working at kroger, telling you i love my job, and buying publix stock (nonetrily wise, it makes sense to suit YOU but as far as religion aka job in this example, not the better good of the company) i know that was a shitty example of the hypocracy but thats basically all i see

Yeah but does that mean then that Kroger itself would be a bad company in your example?

Just like in your example above.. just because the preacher or kid does lines of coke does that make the RELIGION itself bad? Just don't go saying all christians are bad just because of what you observe some do.

[ISAtlanta300]

There isn't anything to like/dislike... i dont' believe in your GOD. ;)

That's ok, He does not believe in you either.... :)

[ahabion]

Yeah but does that mean then that Kroger itself would be a bad company in your example?

Just like in your example above.. just because the preacher or kid does lines of coke does that make the RELIGION itself bad? Just don't go saying all christians are bad just because of what you observe some do.

the thing that really gets him, i'm sure is that there are so many people that would define themselves as Christians. The sad truth to that, is that the bad things we do and say obviously reflect not only us but of what we believe in. So the general public will simply turn themselves off of what we are trying to preach... but whats really sad, is when we dont practice what we preach. and so thats a double neg on us.

Kinda like the Catholics are full of pervert Rabi's and Islamics are full of suicide bombers fighting a Holy War against the Western evil

I personally dont like religion itself either,i think religion is very bad. Its what starts wars and even now, wars are still being fought over religion. Middle East, Vietnam (a religious polical spread of communism vs democracy), WWI and II, the Crusades... on and on... religion is very bad.

[Jaimecbr900]

^^^^Very good post. :goodjob:

[Hulud]

first off, if u think this world today is in "order" then either ur definition of order is a very loose one or maybe u and i aren't living in the same world. if u don't get what i mean, open up cnn.com and just look over the top news stories.

secondly, why can u not see how ppl deny that there's something greater out there? i can easily deny of the existence of something greater, just because we as humans might not be able to COMPREHEND the intricacies of this world, nature and all the living things around us and how we came to be about, does not in any way shape or form give REASON OR PROOF that something "greater" exists.
preach it LOL

[quickdodge®]

ever heard of sarcasm

Wondered if it was. Apologies on my part if that is the case. I don't know you, so I took it the wrong way. Later, QD.

[Hulud]

That's ok, He does not believe in you either.... :)
you are dumb :goodjob:

cause according to your faith, he does

[Crazy Asian]

Wow... :ninja: Just IMO I like to think your past has your story. The way you were raised up in values or the way you lived. There's goto be a story behind your life that makes you dont believe or believe in God.

[Hulud]

Wow... :ninja: Just IMO I like to think your past has your story. The way you were raised up in values or the way you lived. There's goto be a story behind your life that makes you dont believe or believe in God.
onpe, i was brought up believing and goin to church every week

i just chose to think for myself

[Crazy Asian]

Ok.

[b@d @pple]

I'm sure they are basing it on the Christianity... they probably hate Him because they were never shown a genuine Fatherly love from their real father and so relate that to their Heavenly Father and deny Him or they want to look cool with their "I hate God, GO DARWIN" bandwagon friends or they are devil worshippers and are the sworn enemy of God... sad to say that they've already lost... a few millenia ago.

you are a fuckin moron.."the darwin bandwagon"..what the fuck are you talking about..all darwin offered was a different possibility of existance..atleast there was some scientific background behind his reasoning..christianity is based on something that you cannot prove..which makes more since

[ISAtlanta300]

you are dumb :goodjob:

cause according to your faith, he does


Sarcasm.... it's not just for dictionaries anymore.....

[Hulud]

Sarcasm.... it's not just for dictionaries anymore.....
sarcasm..... should come with disclaimers

[2.0civic]

Yeah but does that mean then that Kroger itself would be a bad company in your example?

Just like in your example above.. just because the preacher or kid does lines of coke does that make the RELIGION itself bad? Just don't go saying all christians are bad just because of what you observe some do.

just came back to check on this...


but yes, if the job(religion or whatever else you want to apply my example to) is full of lying ass hypocritical people, that is all I personally need to see to steer my ass away. My general point in that was to say basically that if you love christianity and your "god" so much, you wouldnt falter from him and go somewhere else to better yourself. you would stick it out with what you feel is right instead of going for the immediate gratification



the thing that really gets him, i'm sure is that there are so many people that would define themselves as Christians. The sad truth to that, is that the bad things we do and say obviously reflect not only us but of what we believe in. So the general public will simply turn themselves off of what we are trying to preach... but whats really sad, is when we dont practice what we preach. and so thats a double neg on us.





EXACTLY:goodjob:

Its not like it just one or two people out of the how many ever christians there are but its like damn near everyday!! VERY RARELY do i see a christian that will stand by their values and their commandments. The fact that someone can walk by the bible and preach to you bout your wrongdoings but all the while they make mistakes too.

As was said before, it is rather funny how most of these threads always in in "prove this" or "prove that"


One thing that i would like someone who is religious to answer in this thread is how come in the different religions that circle themselves around the christian god, why is the bible taken so many different ways throughout these religions? Like catholics have one set of believes and baptist have a complete other.

[2.0civic]

Sarcasm.... it's not just for dictionaries anymore.....


see, this is the type of shit im talking about...joking or not, instead of saying shit to the effect of god doesnt know you, a christian should help point someone to the "light" instead of being a smartass about the situation

[ahabion]

you are a fuckin moron.."the darwin bandwagon"..what the fuck are you talking about..all darwin offered was a different possibility of existance..atleast there was some scientific background behind his reasoning..christianity is based on something that you cannot prove..which makes more since

agreed that darwin did offer another possibility into how things were to be and there is some scientific background to back up his reasoning... like the iguanas on the galopagos islands and some species of birds, hence came the theory of evolution.

But evolution itself is still a theory, not a fact. True that the iguanas on the the islands lived because those that knew how to swim and those with longer claws survived to breed... those that didnt, of course died (natural selection) But it still doesnt go to show how we came from a gelatinous compound into human beings. Or how dinasaurs became birds or how a cow became a whale and/or vice versa. Bones are being excavated of so called "eve" skeletal structures that suggest that we may have had a "monkey" like evolutionary process, but again, those bones that they are finding are scattered which suggest they could have been deformaties and outcast from their tribes. Drawing the same parallel, with dinasaurs and birds... yes dinasaurs are maybe more closely related to birds, but where is the evolutionary process which suggest that... meaning if we are finding bones of the human evolutionary process, which of course takes millions of years, why are we not finding the other (dinosaurs, cows, whales, etc.) evolutionary processes as well? Its all still theorized and is still open, which the same can be said about a Religious belief in an omnicient being. So i'm not banging on evolutionist/scientologist, just answering the the thread "For those that don't like God..." and the why part of it.

[b@d @pple]

agreed that darwin did offer another possibility into how things were to be and there is some scientific background to back up his reasoning... like the iguanas on the galopagos islands and some species of birds, hence came the theory of evolution.

But evolution itself is still a theory, not a fact. True that the iguanas on the the islands lived because those that knew how to swim and those with longer claws survived to breed... those that didnt, of course died (natural selection) But it still doesnt go to show how we came from a gelatinous compound into human beings. Or how dinasaurs became birds or how a cow became a whale and/or vice versa. Bones are being excavated of so called "eve" skeletal structures that suggest that we may have had a "monkey" like evolutionary process, but again, those bones that they are finding are scattered which suggest they could have been deformaties and outcast from their tribes. Drawing the same parallel, with dinasaurs and birds... yes dinasaurs are maybe more closely related to birds, but where is the evolutionary process which suggest that... meaning if we are finding bones of the human evolutionary process, which of course takes millions of years, why are we not finding the other (dinosaurs, cows, whales, etc.) evolutionary processes as well? Its all still theorized and is still open, which the same can be said about a Religious belief in an omnicient being. So i'm not banging on evolutionist/scientologist, just answering the the thread "For those that don't like God..." and the why part of it.

In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science--that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."
Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.

[ahabion]

Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.


Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.

That (evolution) is still a hypothesis and conjectures, it has yet to be confirmed. We're 1 or 2 chromosomes closer to frogs than we are to apes. Humans evolving from ape-like ancestors have yet to be proven factual. The same goes for dinosaurs and birds or reptiles for that matter.


Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Truth is relevant. If you were to draw a line between evolutionists and creationists, and you were that line.. you can argueably say that neither side has any hard evidence to show for it at the beginning of time. Since that time, we've dug out bones of what appears to be an ape-like ancestor from millions of years ago but can we really say from that bit of evidence that we evolved from that? or maybe the apes today evolved from that?

[Hulud]

That (evolution) is still a hypothesis and conjectures, it has yet to be confirmed. We're 1 or 2 chromosomes closer to frogs than we are to apes. Humans evolving from ape-like ancestors have yet to be proven factual. The same goes for dinosaurs and birds or reptiles for that matter
i have a question for you....

so your saying that evolution is wrong because its a theory?

what about god? he cant be proven...

[ahabion]

i have a question for you....

so your saying that evolution is wrong because its a theory?

what about god? he cant be proven...

I never said that evolution was wrong because it is a theory, but it doesnt mean that its right or fact or has been proven.

God in scientific terms is also a theory or hypothesis the same as evolution but it also doesnt mean that its right or factual.

For both, you have historical data (bone carbon records, dna, instant rock, etc and of course the oldest record of history being the Bible itself.) all of which has its probability of flaws and gaps, but its all in what you put your money in or what you want to believe in, find out which way the evidence points to the most for YOU, whether it be evolution or creation.

[4dmin]

That's ok, He does not believe in you either.... :)

h8ter :lmfao:

[ISAtlanta300]

see, this is the type of shit im talking about...joking or not, instead of saying shit to the effect of god doesnt know you, a christian should help point someone to the "light" instead of being a smartass about the situation
So who told you I was a christian? Jeez.. lighten up already

Besides.. whenever someone (be it a christian, catholic.. whatever) tries to help point someone to the "light" we get 1000+ posts of "see?? that is why I hate christians... trying to force religion on us !!"

Damned if you do, and damned if you don't I guess....

[Romeyo07]

see...this is what I mean, freakin' athiests pushing their beliefs on us Christians....

sound stupid doesn't it...oddly this happens more than the opposite.

[Hulud]

(be it a christian, catholic.. whatever)
catholics were christian last time i checked :thinking:

[Romeyo07]

nah they changed that yesterday...

[Hulud]

nah they changed that yesterday...
i guess i didnt get the memo :lmfao:

[ahabion]

dont catholics focus more on the Mother Mary than Jesus? I'm not sure, just asking.

[Hulud]

dont catholics focus more on the Mother Mary than Jesus? I'm not sure, just asking.
im not sure but i dont think so

the pope is the leader of the catholic church

[BABY J]

SWING!!!! AND A MISS!!!! That's a great THOUGHT. But try to get a NURSE to consult a Haynes manual... THAT is more inline w/ trying to get a non-believer (or some1 who is undecided) to read the bible. You asked CAR ENTHUSIASTS to consult that manual... of COURSE we would b/c we are ALREADY enthusiasts! A nurse will PAY Pep Boys $100 to switch out her battery b/c the manual means nothing to her. Typical "devout follower" response. The BOTTOM LINE is *Jesus performed MIRACLES and did great works in order to get followers. Either he is DEAD, or he does not want to "convince" todays people that he is real. There is even a scripture that says w/out WORKS faith is dead! So why have faith in something/some1 where there is not "work" being performed? :thinking:

[Romeyo07]

J makes a point....the bible means nothing to those who don't believe in it, like never never land.

[BABY J]

edited my previous post --> scroll up!

[Romeyo07]

work is being performed, you're just not seeing it or acknowledging it as His work. Some call it luck, coincidence, and miricles. I've seen things with my own eyes happens that proves that God exists, but it would be pointless for me to tell you and have you accept it. You still wouldn't believe, and it probably wouldn't be enough to sway you to think twice. If you want God to show Himself to you, just ask. I think I mentioned that before.

Is there really anything to lose when coming to Christ?

[BABY J]

If any of you are truly car enthusiasts i am sure you refer to your haynes manuals for technical info, and daily problems. A lot of your mislead inturpretations can be clearified through your own studies which you will only truly understand after the basic knowledge of the Bible is learned and believed.

thanks for your time, and all the unnecessary comments that i am sure will follow, joe

So, hmmm... let's say I'm MUSLIM. I tell you to refer to the manual (the Quran) and educate yourself and turn from your silly Christian ways. Based on what you just said this should work right? You will learn the "truth" and convert to what's REALLY real... ISLAM!

See where your error is?

[Jaimecbr900]

SWING!!!! AND A MISS!!!! That's a great THOUGHT. But try to get a NURSE to consult a Haynes manual... THAT is more inline w/ trying to get a non-believer (or some1 who is undecided) to read the bible. You asked CAR ENTHUSIASTS to consult that manual... of COURSE we would b/c we are ALREADY enthusiasts! A nurse will PAY Pep Boys $100 to switch out her battery b/c the manual means nothing to her. Typical "devout follower" response. The BOTTOM LINE is *Jesus performed MIRACLES and did great works in order to get followers. Either he is DEAD, or he does not want to "convince" todays people that he is real. There is even a scripture that says w/out WORKS faith is dead! So why have faith in something/some1 where there is not "work" being performed? :thinking:

Just like the nurse that can't change her own battery, a non-believer remains a non-believer as long as he/she sees fit to learn otherwise.

In other words, you keep saying that people AREN'T convinced. I'm telling you there are far MORE people who ARE than aren't. Therefore, to THEM they have gotten to a stage in their life and beliefs where they no longer need a flaming bush or Jesus walking on water in order to believe. So for you to say that "Jesus must not want to convince today's people because he hasn't performed a miracle lately...."......I say to you that maybe you're just not looking in the right places for that miracle, because people see how God works each and every day. YOU may not be convinced yet, but that doesn't mean others aren't.

BTW, "works" is not necessarily miracles.... ;)

[Jaimecbr900]

So, hmmm... let's say I'm MUSLIM. I tell you to refer to the manual (the Quran) and educate yourself and turn from your silly Christian ways. Based on what you just said this should work right? You will learn the "truth" and convert to what's REALLY real... ISLAM!

See where your error is?


I think he was trying to say that some of the misconceptions about "religion" come from people that haven't even read the bible and only pass on urban myths.

[BABY J]

I LIKE ROMEO, I like his style and delivery (serious I am not being sarcastic). But you followers are simply SALESMEN SELLING VACCUM CLEANERS THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE IF THEY WORK. And all you can say is... "it worked for me." LOL. That's cute. I have had good luck and bad... and my good luck has nothing to w/ God, b/c I do not believe in the God that's taught (as we know it). And my bad luck has nothing to do w/ the devil. The bottom line is SHIT HAPPENS, good and bad. Devil worshippers have won the lottery and devout followers get raped in alleys everyday. ALSO the bottom line is that we are a product of our environment... cause you do not get to CHOOSE where you are born, etc. Had you been born in Saudi there is a 90% chance that you'd be Muslim and you'd SWEAR by it as strongly as you do Christianity today.

[Jaimecbr900]

The bottom line is SHIT HAPPENS, good and bad. Devil worshippers have won the lottery and devout followers get raped in alleys everyday.

Since when is being a Christian or any other denomination or anything for that matter a shield? It's not. So bad things do indeed happen to good people, just as it happens to bad people.




ALSO the bottom line is that we are a product of our environment... cause you do not get to CHOOSE where you are born, etc. Had you been born in Saudi there is a 90% chance that you'd be Muslim and you'd SWEAR by it as strongly as you do Christianity today.


You weren't born an Athiest, were you?

[Jaimecbr900]

I LIKE ROMEO, I like his style and delivery (serious I am not being sarcastic).


I thought you said you wanted to marry me????? :lmfao: :D

[BABY J]

I wasn't born "anything". I was born me... I was "directed" by a very religious family and I had doubts even then. The older I got, the more opinionated I became... and the more EDUCATED I became. As I stated, we NEED those people who are unable to think outside the box... gov capitalizes on this fact, and have even made it commercial w/ tax write-offs for your tithes. They have done an amazing job. Imagine that I have PROOF that it's all a farce... and I go on TV to prove it... imagine the KAOS that will ensue afterwards. MASS HISTERIA. It keeps MOST of the people happy MOST of the time... helps people sleep better when they THINK that some big bad supernatural boss "has their back" when they do not realize that the drunk driver beside them on the highway has MORE control over the next 30 seconds of their life than *God in *Heaven. Oh wait, he's NOT in heaven... he's "on his way back". LOL. He must have gotten lost b/c he's "been on his way back" every since I could remember. I am NOT stupid... I KNOW that there is a higher power... but I simply believe that's about the extent of... there's a higher power. Over ALL beings, not "just" Christians. I also believe that your time in Earth IS the best life that you will have, you die... it's done. I believe in treating people right... and I believe in the 10 Commandments... NOT b/c the "bible" says so but b/c it's just common damn sense. I treat people right, I help people when I can. I do NOT acknowledge a religion, b/c I think it's something WE have created and is the worst thing to happen to spirituality. In all of my good deeds, if I end up in hell and some baby eater who "finds God and repints and names Jesus as his Lord and Saviour 10 minutes before he is executed" makes it to heaven then that means that God is a hipocrite anyway. ;)

[Jaimecbr900]

I wasn't born "anything". I was born me... I was "directed" by a very religious family and I had doubts even then. The older I got, the more opinionated I became... and the more EDUCATED I became.

That was my point. You said earlier that we are a product of our environment and since we didn't choose where we are born, we just follow the masses, right??? Well, how come YOU can be different? You may be educated, but you certainly aren't the ONLY educated person on earth, right? So, how did environment force YOU to do anything? ;)



It keeps MOST of the people happy MOST of the time... helps people sleep better when they THINK that some big bad supernatural boss "has their back" when they do not realize that the drunk driver beside them on the highway has MORE control over the next 30 seconds of their life than *God in *Heaven.


Why do you always look at God as a force merely associated with Death? It seems like a lot of your examples on why you don't believe center around death and God's "control" over it or lack thereof.

If you trip and fall in front of a train, you WILL DIE, period. God fearing or not. You WILL DIE. Does that mean the train was controlling you? Does that mean the train should be in charge of everyone from there on out? Why does a "drunk driver" have any more control over me than God does? How many "drunk drivers" do you pass by WITHOUT DYING every single day? More than one, I'm sure. Did those drunk drivers that did nothing to you not count?

I guess I'm just having a hard time understanding why you center God's existance or lack thereof (according to you) around death and destruction and mayhem? What about the good things that happen? Who gets credit for those? Luck? Martians? Leprechauns? Who? Why is it that people question why bad things happen, but don't give credit when good things happen?



I am NOT stupid... I KNOW that there is a higher power... but I simply believe that's about the extent of... there's a higher power. Over ALL beings, not "just" Christians.


What is this "higher power's" purpose?

[4dmin]

maybe its just me but i dont' have a void to fill. my life is complete i'm not worried about my afterlife or this shell i live in. i think its easy for those on the outside to think non beleivers don't feel or haven't tried to...

if i honestly sat here and ask for a sign from above it won't happen; some will say well its b/c your not supposed to test god or its b/c you don't want it. why not? prove to anyone the glory and they will follow. its that easy.

test of faith... we'll walk to the edge of the cliff you step off will your faith save you? i know i have no problem stopping at the edge and waving goodbye to ya ;)

[Jaimecbr900]

maybe its just me but i dont' have a void to fill. my life is complete i'm not worried about my afterlife or this shell i live in. i think its easy for those on the outside to think non beleivers don't feel or haven't tried to...

I thought you said you did believe in an afterlife, just not the one "religion" foretells about?



if i honestly sat here and ask for a sign from above it won't happen; some will say well its b/c your not supposed to test god or its b/c you don't want it. why not? prove to anyone the glory and they will follow. its that easy.

The point is NOT to be easy, it's to believe when others don't that proves you truly believe in something.

BTW, role reversal: You could also sit there and tell yourself that if there was NO GOD, somehow you should receive final confirmation of that somehow. How long do you think you'd be waiting for that? Probably not long because you honestly BELIEVE God doesn't exist. How come you can have that kind of "faith" on nothing, yet profess that it's silly to believe in something you can't see? Aren't you doing the same thing only in reverse? ;)



test of faith... we'll walk to the edge of the cliff you step off will your faith save you? i know i have no problem stopping at the edge and waving goodbye to ya ;)

How's that a test of faith? Find anywhere in the Bible or anywhere else where it says that if you jump off a cliff and you are a true believer God will miraculously save you somehow. Find any passage that mentions people committing suicide is a way to show "faith".

[Romeyo07]

Wouldn't you think that believing in a higher being is thinking outside the box? If its not, then it's natural to believe that such a thing exists. I know you acknowledge a higher being, but why not an "over all" God?

Ever think that maybe there's a chance that what you believe was told to you, not so much something you derrived on your own. An influence brought to you, not spoken, but thoughts and theories that you've come to accept. This has then become part of you and now what you fully believe. As convinced you are that there is no God by your own "proof", we believe as strongly as you do about our convictions.

So what does it come down to? You and I can agree to disagree. I'll be providing you with my facts that I find true and that you find no value in. All in all, I will continue to act as the Christian I should, and in my eyes, hopefully you'll see "the light". In your eyes, you'll continue to be who you are because you are self justified. I'm sure you don't care what I do with my personal beliefs, so long as they don't trample on you or yours.

[4dmin]

I thought you said you did believe in an afterlife, just not the one "religion" foretells about?




The point is NOT to be easy, it's to believe when others don't that proves you truly believe in something.

BTW, role reversal: You could also sit there and tell yourself that if there was NO GOD, somehow you should receive final confirmation of that somehow. How long do you think you'd be waiting for that? Probably not long because you honestly BELIEVE God doesn't exist. How come you can have that kind of "faith" on nothing, yet profess that it's silly to believe in something you can't see? Aren't you doing the same thing only in reverse? ;)




How's that a test of faith? Find anywhere in the Bible or anywhere else where it says that if you jump off a cliff and you are a true believer God will miraculously save you somehow. Find any passage that mentions people committing suicide is a way to show "faith".

i dont' believe in an afterlife, but if there is one i don't think its anything we've seen described in a book but what we have created for ourselves.

the point jaime is the why don't I believe. simply i don't have faith in something i don't believe exsist. you on the other hand have faith correct? i've heard the term 'miracle' thrown around many times and 'faith'... well as i said we walk to the cliff i'll wave goodbye b/c no amount of faith is going to save you. and its not commiting suicide if you have faith, b/c if your faith was strong enough you would know that god himself will take your life when its ready and protect you from any harm.

[4dmin]

Wouldn't you think that believing in a higher being is thinking outside the box? If its not, then it's natural to believe that such a thing exists. I know you acknowledge a higher being, but why not an "over all" God?

believing in higher being is outside the box, now believing in JESUS is not.


Ever think that maybe there's a chance that what you believe was told to you, not so much something you derrived on your own. An influence brought to you, not spoken, but thoughts and theories that you've come to accept. This has then become part of you and now what you fully believe. As convinced you are that there is no God by your own "proof", we believe as strongly as you do about our convictions.

everything one believes is derrived from previous knowlege. no one wakes up and say i'm a christian, atheist, muslim, etc.



I'm sure you don't care what I do with my personal beliefs, so long as they don't trample on you or yours.

i don't care if you don't agree w/ me but if you stand in my way we have a problem. does that answer your question?

[{X}Echo419]

I think, "thinking outside the box" is a relative term.

how could he stand in the way of your beliefs?

this is kinda why I think debating religon is foolish. no one is ever(at least on here) to change their religon or whatever. that is something someone has to do on their own. :2cents:

[Hulud]

this is kinda why I think debating religon is foolish. no one is ever(at least on here) to change their religon or whatever. that is something someone has to do on their own. :2cents:
no ones trying to change anyone

this forum was brought up to enlighten others, on others ideals. not to convert anyone

[{X}Echo419]

no ones trying to change anyone

this forum was brought up to enlighten others, on others ideals. not to convert anyone
maybe if this was more of a Q&A but these threads look more like Debates, to me at least...

[Hulud]

maybe if this was more of a Q&A but these threads look more like Debates, to me at least...
of course they are debates, but no one is saying "you should believe god" or vice versa

[Jaimecbr900]

i dont' believe in an afterlife, but if there is one i don't think its anything we've seen described in a book but what we have created for ourselves.

That's double talking my friend. You either believe there is or isn't, not both. I understand what you're trying to say, but you'd be better served by merely saying the first part and not adding the latter. It makes it sound like you're sitting on the fence.

My car is faster than yours. <---That is a statement of straight belief and convinction.

My car is faster than yours, BUT IF it isn't it's because I have a weak cylinder. <----That is a statement that is much weaker than the above one because I'm leaving myself an "out" which shows I have atleast SOME doubt or possibility of getting beat.

See what I'm saying?


the point jaime is the why don't I believe. simply i don't have faith in something i don't believe exsist. you on the other hand have faith correct? i've heard the term 'miracle' thrown around many times and 'faith'...

You have said you do believe there is a "higher power" before, just not the as described in the Bible. That's awful close to the definition of having "faith" in something, right???? ;)

Question: What exactly is this "higher power" you DO believe exists going to DO for YOU?



well as i said we walk to the cliff i'll wave goodbye b/c no amount of faith is going to save you. and its not commiting suicide if you have faith, b/c if your faith was strong enough you would know that god himself will take your life when its ready and protect you from any harm.

It is suicide to do something that you KNOW will cause you to die.

Show me where in the Bible or in the definition of "faith" it refers to "faith" as a shield or saving you from jumping off cliffs or from committing suicide. How is jumping off a cliff going to prove faith or lack thereof then?

faith ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)
n.
Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
A set of principles or beliefs.

[4dmin]

That's double talking my friend. You either believe there is or isn't, not both. I understand what you're trying to say, but you'd be better served by merely saying the first part and not adding the latter. It makes it sound like you're sitting on the fence.

sorry what your not seeing is i'm not stupid... i'm saying i don't believe there is one, but i could also be wrong i'm not going to say what i believe is right shit i haven't been dead yet but if i'm wrong i don't think its what your book is led you to believe. ;)


What exactly is this "higher power" you DO believe exists going to DO for YOU?

do i believe are are unexplained forces about? sure there are always going to be unanswered questions... is there some higher being, obviously... doesn't mean GOD, shit aliens can be higher being if you wanted them to be.... hell i don't know all i know is we live in a complex world w/ complex questions yet one can truely answer. so until then on the side of caution i dont' believe everything i read nor do i take it to be 100% false. the bible very well may be the gateway to something else but that doesn't mean that its true or that its a gateway to anything one would want to be apart of. ;)


It is suicide to do something that you KNOW will cause you to die.

Show me where in the Bible or in the definition of "faith" it refers to "faith" as a shield or saving you from jumping off cliffs or from committing suicide. How is jumping off a cliff going to prove faith or lack thereof then?
good i was awaiting you to comment on this i wrote that for a reason... Jaime do you believe in MIRACLES? You obviously believe in PHROPHECY of the bible or you wouldn't believe in jesus.

[Jaimecbr900]

sorry what your not seeing is i'm not stupid...

A heathen, yes....stupid, no...... :D



i'm saying i don't believe there is one, but i could also be wrong i'm not going to say what i believe is right shit i haven't been dead yet but if i'm wrong i don't think its what your book is led you to believe. ;)

Again, double talking. See my car example in the previous post.

What you are essentially saying is that you DON'T truly believe something then, right? You are in fact riding the fence.

You do realize that once you're "dead" you don't have a chance to change your mind about anything, right? So whatever you believe, have done, have NOT done, etc when you die is what you die with, right? So, leaving yourself an "out" for AFTER you die is totally worthless.




do i believe are are unexplained forces about? sure there are always going to be unanswered questions... is there some higher being, obviously... doesn't mean GOD, shit aliens can be higher being if you wanted them to be.... hell i don't know all i know is we live in a complex world w/ complex questions yet one can truely answer.

Again, you believe in a higher being...fine.

What does this "higher being" do for you exactly?



so until then on the side of caution i dont' believe everything i read nor do i take it to be 100% false. the bible very well may be the gateway to something else but that doesn't mean that its true or that its a gateway to anything one would want to be apart of. ;)

That's just it, you cannot expect to be given anything (good, bad, or indifferent) if you ride the fence your whole life.


good i was awaiting you to comment on this i wrote that for a reason... Jaime do you believe in MIRACLES? You obviously believe in PHROPHECY of the bible or you wouldn't believe in jesus.

I'll bite.....I do believe in miracles.

[Hulud]

I'll bite.....I do believe in miracles.
reel him in paul LOL
http://ruby.fgcu.edu/courses/CGS1100/powerpoint/Fishing.jpg








sorry i had too

[4dmin]

Again, double talking. See my car example in the previous post.

What you are essentially saying is that you DON'T truly believe something then, right? You are in fact riding the fence.

You do realize that once you're "dead" you don't have a chance to change your mind about anything, right? So whatever you believe, have done, have NOT done, etc when you die is what you die with, right? So, leaving yourself an "out" for AFTER you die is totally worthless.

i'm not double talking... i believe one thing and am fully aware its possible i'm wrong.... the difference between me and you is you SAY YOUR RIGHT, but w/o acknowledging possibly your wrong. I dont' believe in your heaven/hell but if i'm wrong i know where i'm going :D

b/c i acknowledge i maybe wrong doesn't say anything... i rather die open minded then die blindly. besides your sounded quite closed minded, like you've died before you can't say 100% what is/isn't you only know what you believe to be real. you may very well be 100% wrong and it will be a big surprise to you. i don't pretend to have all the answers.


What does this "higher being" do for you exactly? nothing you took out of context what i think a higher being is.. i don't have a defintion for a higher being, when i meet one i'll tell you.

the problem w/ religion is we take calculus and try to break it down to simple addition. you can't do that w/ religion. just b/c i say i think divine intervent starts a cycle to which man has gotten to doesn't mean i believe in GOD doesn't mean this divine power has any bearing on our situation. we are merely pons in a big game of chess ;)

so to planly answer you question. nothing. higher being has no power over me. i am my own god.



That's just it, you cannot expect to be given anything (good, bad, or indifferent) if you ride the fence your whole life. thats what your not getting i'm not riding the fence i'm content w/ dying and going nowhere. thats what i believe at this time. but i'm not dead yet so i can't tell you if what i believe is correct as you can't tell me what heaven is like b/c you've never been there.

how about this if i die before you and i'm wrong if i go to hell i'm getting a hall pass to haunt the fuck out of you till your last days in this hell on earth. if i'm right, you can visit me at my grave sleeping.


I'll bite.....I do believe in miracles. ok you have faith in the miracles, you have faith in the prophecy of the bible, but you dont' have enough faith that god will keep you out of harms way? what the fuck are you praying for if you don't believe your HIGHER BEING is answering you?