Plane on a treadmill poll...

[Ruiner]

Just answer the poll. I'm not looking for some explanation as I already know the damn answer. Either you think that the plane will take off or it won't. It's very simple. I would like to keep a record of who says it will and who says it won't. When the question is finally proven, we can all laugh at the people who were wrong. I made this thread public so that all of IA.com can know where you stand. :) Don't be a pussy, answer up. Stand by your convictions... :)

Why am I doing this? I'm bored.

Here is the question:


Suppose a plane is on a runway that acts as a conveyer belt. The conveyor belt is as long as a typical runway. The plane moves in one direction, while the conveyer moves in the opposite direction at the same speed as the plane. The wheels of the plane are free-rolling. Will the plane be able to take off?

Once again, I don't want an explanation. I already know the answer.

[TheSnail]

Yes because a plane is propelled by pushing air. It will go and take off at the same speed but its wheels will just spin faster.

[SixSquared]

No... backwards and forwards movement = the plane is standing still, even though the wheels are moving. Planes count on airflow to get lift.... you don't feel a breeze when you run on a treadmill.. therefore, no lift = no flying.

[TheSnail]

No... backwards and forwards movement = the plane is standing still, even though the wheels are moving. Planes count on airflow to get lift.... you don't feel a breeze when you run on a treadmill.. therefore, no lift = no flying.



It will move because its pushing its self by its propeller. Doesnt matter if the ground is moving or not. The wheels will just spin faster.

[fight club]

yes. see ruiners picture in last thread about this.

[Wurm]

fighter jets can take off from a standstill hehe

[TheSnail]

fighter jets can take off from a standstill hehe


Harriet jet FTW!

[Wurm]

nbut the question never says anything about the engine running or having a pilot

[Ruiner]

Yes because a plane is propelled by pushing air. It will go and take off at the same speed but its wheels will just spin faster.

So very true, but unfortunately, people can't grasp this concept. :)

[Wurm]

dont make snail feel smart

[TheSnail]

All it takes is Physics 101 lol, if even that.

[speedminded]

Wait, you mean planes aren't powered by their wheels?!!! Well GD, you learn something new everyday.

I want funding from sponsors to make a scale version of this experiment to make people feel really dumb, jsut to show those "engineers" that said otherwise :tongue:

[BABY J]

Funny, Ruiner said do not say WHY. Now the results are diluted b/c SOME1 gave the answer away.

[TheSnail]

Funny, Ruiner said do not say WHY. Now the results are diluted b/c SOME1 gave the answer away.


Oh wups, didnt read that part. I thought we had to back up our vote.

[BABY J]

LOL. Saul Goode homey.

[Jblizzard]

nope

[RandomGuy]

lol i doubted the man in the first thread bc it seemed like it wouldnt take off... but then i thought of it like this:

u know scuba divers... they have those water jet things they hold and they move them through the water really fast:
http://i12.ebayimg.com/03/i/06/b4/06/4e_1_b.JPG

a water jet right

imagine the diver diving upside down, on the floor, with wheels on his back.
now imagine the ocean floor is a giant treadmill in the scenario given...

would he stay put in once place, or would he continue to move forward, once the treadmill turns on? :goodjob:

[TheSnail]

lol i doubted the man in the first thread bc it seemed like it wouldnt take off... but then i thought of it like this:

u know scuba divers... they have those water jet things they hold and they move them through the water really fast:
http://i12.ebayimg.com/03/i/06/b4/06/4e_1_b.JPG

a water jet right

imagine the diver diving upside down, on the floor, with wheels on his back.
now imagine the ocean floor is a giant treadmill in the scenario given...

would he stay put in once place, or would he continue to move forward, once the treadmill turns on? :goodjob:


If the treadmill creates a current then no.

[Kevykev]

Depends on if the Place has VTEC!


cheap joke

btw Ruiner, you shouldn't have voted because the pussies will follow!


Poll is inevitably flawed :lmfao:

[RandomGuy]

If the treadmill creates a current then no.
http://images.bimedia.net/images/Current+Affair.jpg

[TheSnail]

What did I spell current wrong?

[RandomGuy]

What did I spell current wrong?
Nah, you spelled it right (http://www.thepounder.com/bag.html)

[TheSnail]

Damn why did I have to wonder if what you just typed was a link!

[RandomGuy]

Damn why did I have to wonder if what you just typed was a link!
blaahhaha human nature

[TheSnail]

blaahhaha human nature


Bastard

[Ruiner]

btw Ruiner, you shouldn't have voted because the pussies will follow!


Poll is inevitably flawed :lmfao:

It wouldn't matter. People still refuse to believe... That's okay. :)

[HyPer50]

I still say no... I just can't picture it even though what you've said DOES make sense... damnit ruiner, sell your porsche and make a full scale experiment just to prove it lmao.

[Ruiner]

I still say no... I just can't picture it even though what you've said DOES make sense... damnit ruiner, sell your porsche and make a full scale experiment just to prove it lmao.

It's a shame that you won't believe me.

Why don't you think that it would take off again?

[Z0_o6]

yes it will take off. period.

[HyPer50]

It's a shame that you won't believe me.

Why don't you think that it would take off again?

I just have trouble visualizing it going forward without a solid surface... seems like since the ground is going in reverse and the plane is going forward it would just sit there neutral, but your point does make sense... that no power goes to the wheels. like i said, i dont doubt you.. just can't seem to picture it, i'm slow i guess ha.

[Z0_o6]

one word: Bernulli (sp?)


look it up

[TheSnail]

Picture being on roller blades on a treadmill. Hold on to the bars and pull yourself foward. Now turn on the treadmill and do it again.

[Z0_o6]

maybe its Bernouli


yeah that sounds good

[ScreaminZetec]

So very true, but unfortunately, people can't grasp this concept. :)


Your right, I just didnt think about the airplane having the thrust to overcome the speed of the tread mill. As long as it can generate forward movement enough to create airflow over then wings then yeah it would take off. I was thinking about it as if the airplane ran at the same speed as the tread mill as in no forward movement.

[BABY J]

1 word for all of you non-believers. Aircraft carriers. Now (modern carriers) they have the catapult to assist. But back in the day they did not. Plane will launch. BELIEVE IT!

[fight club]

Your right, I just didnt think about the airplane having the thrust to overcome the speed of the tread mill. As long as it can generate forward movement enough to create airflow over then wings then yeah it would take off. I was thinking about it as if the airplane ran at the same speed as the tread mill as in no forward movement.

no, your wrong. the plane doesnt have to overcome anything. the plane will take off as it would normally. the wheels would just be spinning really fast.

[BABY J]

Agreed!!!

[speedminded]

no, your wrong. the plane doesnt have to overcome anything. the plane will take off as it would normally. the wheels would just be spinning really fast.Exactly, the plane would take off no differantly with the exception that the wheels would be spinning at the same rate the plane is traveling forward PLUS the speed the treadmill is going. It's REALLY simple, a treadmill has ZERO effect on air movement, currents, drag, lift, etc.

[{X}Echo419]

No... backwards and forwards movement = the plane is standing still, even though the wheels are moving. Planes count on airflow to get lift.... you don't feel a breeze when you run on a treadmill.. therefore, no lift = no flying.
this is correct! DRAG makes a plane fly! the wind traveling over the wings creates "DRAG". without it the plane will not take off.
think about it. are the wheels on the plane powered at all? no.
put a FAT A$$ fan in front of that treadmill(and boy it would have to be big) to simulate the air traveling over the wings and the mutha fooker will rise.
I can't believe some of you actually believe a plane would fly on a treadmill.

[BABY J]

^^ You do not feel wind on a treadmill b/c you are pushing against the ground (like cars do). The jet engines are pushing against the WIND. It will take off.

[{X}Echo419]

^^ You do not feel wind on a treadmill b/c you are pushing against the ground (like cars do). The jet engines are pushing against the WIND. It will take off.

which is exactally why th plane wouldn't go ANYWHERE. guarnteed.

O and last time I checked the NAVY's aircraft carriers were solid. not giant fooking treadmills.

[BABY J]

This is somewhat of a "trick" question. Not because it is phrased in a deliberately tricky way, but because people tend to have trouble thinking about the operation of other vehicles apart from cars which they know so well.

The heart of the confusion is simply these two important facts:
* cars propel themselves by pushing against the ground via friction
* airplanes propel themselves by pushing against the air
If you can let go of how cars operate and think about what an airplane
does, you'll be able to see the problem clearly.

One good way of tackling this problem is to find a good analogy. But the analogy must be a valid one else you'll just get more confused. For example, someone posted the analogy of running on a treadmill. Why is that a bad analogy? Because one runs by pushing against the ground via friction between their shoe and the ground. This is how a car propels itself! It is not how an airplane propels itself, by pushing against the air. Bad analogy.

Let's use this analogy. Instead of looking at the airplane, let's back up and go into the airport. Suppose you're walking down to your gate and pulling your carry-on bag behind you. It's a nice new bag with low friction wheels. No problem! Up ahead you see one of those moving walkways. You don't see anyone coming, so you decide to do a little experiment. You go over to the walkway that is moving TOWARDS you and place your bag on it. Meanwhile, you step off to the side of the walkway, and still holding on to the handle of your bag, you continue to walk along. In fact, you intentionally walk along at the same speed that the moving walkway is going, just in the opposite direction.

Question: does the bag move or does it remain stationary as you keep walking? Obviously it moves with you. So why does your bag move forward when you are walking at the same speed of the conveyor going in the opposite direction?

The answer to that question is also the answer to the airplane-conveyor question. To complete the analogy, the pull of your arm is analogous to the force of the airplane engines. The bag's wheels are analogous to the airplane tires. Do the nice low-friction wheels on your bag on the conveyor pull against you anymore than they do when you're just pulling your bag along normally? No, they don't. They are free-wheeling, after all. Meanwhile, you're pulling the bag with the same force in both cases. So in both cases, the bag keeps moving forward. Likewise with the airplane, the pull of the engines
doesn't change nor does the force on the airplane imparted by the tires change no matter what the ground is doing underneath the tires. You have the same force imbalance in either case, and since Force = mass x accceleration, you have the same acceleration. Remember, we are talking airplane engines which push against the AIR, not the ground. The acceleration is with respect to the AIR, thus the airplane develops a speed relative to the air and can eventually take off.

That's a long winded analogy. Here's a quicker solution. Engineers learn to draw Free Body Diagrams to understand such problems. A FBD is just a block diagram which illustrates the forces acting upon an object. The net force can be calculated from all the contributing forces. If that net force is not zero, the object accelerates in the direction of that force. Let's draw a FBD now. Represent the airplane by a simple rectangle (the shape doesn't matter). Indicate the force of the engines pulling on the plane with a large arrow, labeled "F_e" with e for engines. What force are the tires imparting to the plane? Remember, they spin freely except for bearing friction and rolling
friction, which produces forces that are quite tiny compared to the
engines Represent those forces with a small arrow, labeled F_t where t means tire. What other forces are operating? There is a drag force too. But remember this drag force is also small compared to the
propulsion of the engines at least at takeoff speeds. Label that F_d.

FREE BODY DIAGRAM

F_d |----------| F_e
<---| Plane |------------->
|----------|
<-- F_t

So what do we have here? We haven't put numerical quantities on these
forces, but instead have just been talking in terms of large and small. That's okay for the purposes of this illustration. It's enough to know that F_e is going to be much greater than F_d + F_t pulling in the opposite direction. If that's the case, we have an unbalanced force on the plane. Therefore, it accelerates. And it accelerates with respect to the AIR, since F_e is produces by the engines pushing against the air.

To sum up: Yes, the airplane takes off. The motion of the surface underneath the freely-spinning tires is irrelevant to the acceleration of the aircraft since the tires cannot impart any force to the aircraft (aside from the aforementioned very small rolling and bearing friction).

PLANE TAKES OFF. Ladies and gentleman you are free to move about the cabin.

[{X}Echo419]

An airplane in flight is the center of a continuous tug of war between four forces: lift, gravity force or weight, thrust, and drag. Lift and Drag are considered aerodynamic forces because they exist due to the movement of the aircraft through the air. The weight pulls down on the plane opposing the lift created by air flowing over the wing. Thrust is generated by the propeller and opposes drag caused by air resistance to the frontal area of the airplane. During take off, thrust must overcome drag and lift must overcome the weight before the airplane can become airborne. In level flight at constant speed, thrust exactly equals drag and lift exactly equals the weight or gravity force. For landings thrust must be reduced below the level of drag and lift below the level of the gravity force or weight

http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/fltmidfly.htm

[{X}Echo419]

:blah: :blah: :blah: ...
Let's use this analogy. Instead of looking at the airplane, let's back up and go into the airport. Suppose you're walking down to your gate and pulling your carry-on bag behind you. It's a nice new bag with low friction wheels. No problem! Up ahead you see one of those moving walkways. You don't see anyone coming, so you decide to do a little experiment. You go over to the walkway that is moving TOWARDS you and place your bag on it. Meanwhile, you step off to the side of the walkway, and still holding on to the handle of your bag, you continue to walk along. In fact, you intentionally walk along at the same speed that the moving walkway is going, just in the opposite direction.
:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:
next time I go to the airport I'll try and make my luggage fly off of the moving walk-way. that'll turn some heads.


To sum up: Yes, the airplane takes off. The motion of the surface underneath the freely-spinning tires is irrelevant to the acceleration of the aircraft since the tires cannot impart any force to the aircraft (aside from the aforementioned very small rolling and bearing friction).

PLANE TAKES OFF. Ladies and gentleman you are free to move about the cabin.

in bold: that is the MOST RELEVANT part of the argument.

[joecoolfreak]

An airplane in flight is the center of a continuous tug of war between four forces: lift, gravity force or weight, thrust, and drag. Lift and Drag are considered aerodynamic forces because they exist due to the movement of the aircraft through the air.

The entire point is that the "treadmill" does not have any effect on these four forces.

[{X}Echo419]

The entire point is that the "treadmill" does not have any effect on these four forces.

CORRECT! in fact it negates them! :goodjob: +1 for someone with some damn sense. :cool:

[Brett]

Yes it can.

[joecoolfreak]

CORRECT! in fact it negates them! :goodjob: +1 for someone with some damn sense. :cool:

How does the ground moving in the opposite direction affect lift, drag etc....
Here...lets do another experiment... a plane is flying 3 feet over the ground and then fly's over a huge treadmill...how would that effect the plane? The answer is it wouldn't. The only purpose of a plane's wheels touching the ground is to reduce rolling resistance until the plane reaches a high enough speed to take off. It doesn't matter how fast they go or slow. The plane's speed is determained by how fast it's engines can draw air through and push it.

[{X}Echo419]

How does the ground moving in the opposite direction affect lift, drag etc....
Here...lets do another experiment... a plane is flying 3 feet over the ground and then fly's over a huge treadmill...how would that effect the plane? The answer is it wouldn't. The only purpose of a plane's wheels touching the ground is to reduce rolling resistance until the plane reaches a high enough speed to take off. It doesn't matter how fast they go or slow. The plane's speed is determained by how fast it's engines can draw air through and push it.

did you open my link? I think that explains it pretty clearly.

how does the treadmill make wind pass over the wings? it doesn't! thus the plane won't fly.
the propeller dosen't "push the air over the wings of the plane. it simply "moves" the plane when the wheelz aren't touching the ground. to KEEP THE AIR FLOWING OVER & UNDER THE WINGS!
yes the planes "speed" is determined by the engine. NOT IT'S ABILITY TO FLY!

[Halfwit]

i think we are all confused.

some ppl think that the ? means the airplane is moving faster tahn the speed of the tread mill, then it would fly,

others are thinking it means the wheels are turning the same speed as the treadmill, not moving forward nor backwards (plane will not fly)

[{X}Echo419]

someone, anyone I don't care who.

go out and buy a remote controlled airplane. make sure not to get 1 that's TOO BIG. as it won't fit on the threadmill.

this weekend we can go to my gym crank up a threadmill put the plane on it and watch it do nothing except buzz.

and when I prove this foolish theory wrong I get to keep the airplane. But(and it's not like this is possible anyways) if I am wrong I will pay the challenger double the cost of the plane.

any challengers wanna lose some cash?

*saturday night after 9pm I will not be avaiable. UFC 61 will be on!!!*

[{X}Echo419]

[QUOTE=Halfwit]i think we are all confused.

some ppl think that the ? means the airplane is moving faster tahn the speed of the tread mill, then it would fly,...[QUOTE]

then what would be the point of putting it on the threadmill?

[BABY J]

The catergorical answer is YES.

The fundamental point to appreciate is that the power from a plane for forward momentum is not through its wheels and the wheels are free to spin. The other point to appreciate is that the questions states that the treadmill is tracking the planes speed and not the other way around. (See scenario B)

I think people's yes/no answers depend largely on them ignoring these two points. To clarify, imagine the treadmill runway but with a fixed control tower at the start.

Scenario A - Lets assume that the plane tracks the treadmill's speed:

The treadmill starts moving at whichever ludicrously high speed you care to mention and the plane's engines are running. For the plane to remain stationary relative to the control tower, the engines would only need to operate at a power to overcome the friction on the free-spinning wheels - as previously quoted by egon_spangler, about 12% for a 747 with the wrong wheels on a concrete treadmill (a whole new question, I feel?). In this instance, will the plane take off?

Answer: Absolutely not as there is no airspeed/lift (see everyone elses comments for further explanation)

Scenario B - the treadmill tracks the planes speed: The "speed" of the
plane would be it's speed relative to the control tower. If the plane
accelerates to 100mph, the treadmill would accelerate to 100mph, and
the net effect would cause the wheels to spin at 200mph. However, the
plane would still be moving forward at 100mph. (For the plane to remain stationary relative to the control tower, there would have to be no speed, and so the treadmill would not move either.) Will the plane take off?

Answer: Absolutely yes. Once it achieves the necessary speed relative
to the control tower, the airspeed would be sufficient to create the lift. Granted the plane will have to overcome more friction on the wheels than it would on a static runway as they are moving at twice the speed, but the engines would easily overcome this.

Different conditions would cause the effects that others are arguing towards, but none apply to this question:

If the treadmill was replaced by an windtunnel and the speed of the
windtunnel increased to match the thrust of the engines or vice versa, then at the necessary speed, the plane could takeoff and fly whilst remaining stationary relative to the control tower.

Alternatively, if you replaced the plane with a car with wings where its forward momentum on the ground is through the wheels, then the treadmill tracking the speed would increase until the car reached it's top speed. The car would remain stationary relative to the tower and it would never take off due to the lack of airspeed. Aside from the treadmill question, I do recognise that a winged car with no means of propulsion once in the air would be pretty rubbish.

In conclusion, given the conditions of the question, the plane will take off everytime.

[Halfwit]

[QUOTE=Halfwit]i think we are all confused.

some ppl think that the ? means the airplane is moving faster tahn the speed of the tread mill, then it would fly,...[QUOTE]

then what would be the point of putting it on the threadmill?
there wouldnt be, i am saying ppl are takingthe ? two different ways. they way i took it, the plane will not fly, cause it is staying still, only tires are spinning
s

[joecoolfreak]

did you open my link? I think that explains it pretty clearly.

how does the treadmill make wind pass over the wings? it doesn't! thus the plane won't fly. the propeller dosen't "push the air over the wings of the plane. it simply "moves" the plane when the wheelz aren't touching the ground. to KEEP THE AIR FLOWING OVER & UNDER THE WINGS!
yes the planes "speed" is determined by the engine. NOT IT'S ABILITY TO FLY!

This is the part that you don't get....there is no power supplied to the wheels. The propeller moves the plane regardless of whether or not the wheels are touching the ground. The speed of the ground in any direction is completely moot. Let me use yet another example to prove you wrong. Lets say we are talking about a plane with skids or floaters that lands and takes off from the water. Is it possible for the plane to take off against the current? Of course. The sea plane doesn't have to find a spot where the water isn't moving... Why? because the means of thrust as your article pointed out is from the engines and ultimately from the turbine or propeller. That thrust is completely independant of the ground as it pulls air or pushes it and the treadmill isn't even part of the equation.

[BABY J]

someone, anyone I don't care who.

go out and buy a remote controlled airplane. make sure not to get 1 that's TOO BIG. as it won't fit on the threadmill.

this weekend we can go to my gym crank up a threadmill put the plane on it and watch it do nothing except buzz.

and when I prove this foolish theory wrong I get to keep the airplane. But(and it's not like this is possible anyways) if I am wrong I will pay the challenger double the cost of the plane.

any challengers wanna lose some cash?

*saturday night after 9pm I will not be avaiable. UFC 61 will be on!!!*

--> Put on some skates.

--> Stand on a treadmill.

--> I will tie a rope around your waste and ENSURE that it is EXACTLY parallel to the ground. (to not exert any downward force on the mill)

--> I tug on the rope... what happens between the skates and the treadmill?

Your answer here is gonna tell me a lot about your thought process (and lack therof... LOL).

[{X}Echo419]

This is the part that you don't get....there is no power supplied to the wheels. The propeller moves the plane regardless of whether or not the wheels are touching the ground. The speed of the ground in any direction is completely moot. Let me use yet another example to prove you wrong. Lets say we are talking about a plane with skids or floaters that lands and takes off from the water. Is it possible for the plane to take off against the current? Of course. The sea plane doesn't have to find a spot where the water isn't moving... Why? because the means of thrust as your article pointed out is from the engines and ultimately from the turbine or propeller. That thrust is completely independant of the ground as it pulls air or pushes it and the treadmill isn't even part of the equation.

moot? I don't think so.

only if the plane is GOING FASTER THAN THE CURRENT! fast enough to take off!

if I'm sooo wrong. take my challenge. free $$$ for you.

now, if you're talking about making the plane go FASTER than the threadmill. then yes it could take off...if it gained enough speed. NOT if it traveled @the same speed(remain in 1 spot) as the treadmill. plain and simple

[{X}Echo419]

--> Put on some skates.

--> Stand on a treadmill.

--> I will tie a rope around your waste and ENSURE that it is EXACTLY parallel to the ground. (to not exert any downward force on the mill)

--> I tug on the rope... what happens between the skates and the treadmill?

Your answer here is gonna tell me a lot about your thought process (and lack therof... LOL).

I would then be pulling myself FASTER than the treadmill. what's your point? I could go forward without the treadmill and with alot LESS effort. so why? are you trying to make it HARDER for the plane to fly?

why don't you take up my challenge?

I don't think you people know what you're trying to do.

[joecoolfreak]

moot? I don't think so.

only if the plane is GOING FASTER THAN THE CURRENT! fast enough to take off!

if I'm sooo wrong. take my challenge. free $$$ for you.

now, if you're talking about making the plane go FASTER than the threadmill. then yes it could take off...if it gained enough speed. NOT if it traveled @the same speed(remain in 1 spot) as the treadmill. plain and simple

If it remained in the same spot...see Baby J's answer...ie the plane isn't going anywhere, so it's speed is 0 and therefor the treadmill wouldn't be moving. The hypothetical treadmill here matches the speed of the plane itself, not the wheels.

[BABY J]

First, you have to assume a few things.

1. The conveyor belt can react quick enough to the plane's speed so their speed stays exactly the same.

2. The engine or propeller that powers the plane can only cause the plane to go forward (or backward) but not create any lift. So the only lift generated will be from the wings.

3. The conveyor belt's speed is linked to the speed of the plane relative to the ground and therefore also to the air around it. It is not linked to the turning speed of the wheels.

4. The wheels of the plane does not power or cause the plane to go forward.

5. The wheels can turn freely and without friction, but only in reaction to the movement of the plane or the conveyor belt.

Let's start with the plane standing still. The conveyor belt is not moving because the plane is not moving. As the engines start to cause the plane to go forward, the conveyor belt starts to move at the same speed of the plane. But because the wheels are free to move, the conveyor belt has no effect on the plane, only the wheels, so the plane continues to go forward. The faster the plane goes forward, the faster the conveyor belt moves backward, but it's only affecting the wheels, not the plane.

The plane will still take off, but the wheels will turn at twice the speed because of the conveyor belt. Because the wheels are free to move and does not affect the speed of the plane, the conveyor belt has no effect on the speed of the plane.

If the plane was powered by it's wheels, like a car, and the conveyor belt speed was linked to the speed of the wheels. Then the plane will not move.

[joecoolfreak]

If I could take your challenge I would, but there is no possible way for you to recreate this senerio with a treadmill because you can't track the speed of the plane, nor could you increase the speed of the treadmill accordingly.

[{X}Echo419]

If it remained in the same spot...see Baby J's answer...ie the plane isn't going anywhere, so it's speed is 0 and therefor the treadmill wouldn't be moving. The hypothetical treadmill here matches the speed of the plane itself, not the wheels.

so what's your point? if you're going to make the plane go faster than the treadmill then what's the point? you're just making it harder for the plane to fly. not impossible, just harder. wtf is the point?

[BABY J]

so what's your point? if you're going to make the plane go faster than the treadmill then what's the point? you're just making it harder for the plane to fly. not impossible, just harder. wtf is the point?

That IS the point. IT WILL FLY!! It will just be THAT much harder for it to achieve flight!!!!

[Halfwit]

itll fly if i tell it to, that is the end.

[joecoolfreak]

so what's your point? if you're going to make the plane go faster than the treadmill then what's the point? you're just making it harder for the plane to fly. not impossible, just harder. wtf is the point?
You are not making it harder, you are just making the wheels spin faster. The entire point is that people like you have a hard time grasping that there are vehicles that move by the thrust of something other than their wheels and thats why some people automatically assume that the plane won't fly. A plane's wheels are nothing more than bearings to lower the rolling resistance to taking off. It's not like anyone is suggesting that we build a runway that is a moving sidewalk. It is just an exercise for the mind to think "outside the box".

[{X}Echo419]

That IS the point. IT WILL FLY!! It will just be THAT much harder for it to achieve flight!!!!

WHY PUT IT ON THE TREADMILL IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?!?!?!?!?

looks like we were talking about 2 different things here.
Ruiner's orginal question(I believe) if refering to a theory(or should I say horsey poo) that a stationary plane on a treadmill maintaining the same speed as the treadmill will fly. which of course it won't. as you seem to agree.

[joecoolfreak]

No...and I promise that if you ask Ruiner whether or not the plane was moving when it took off, he would say yes. No one would say that the plane would stay in one place. In fact, it would be impossible for the plane to stay stationary in the senerio that was given. The only way that it would stay stationary is if the treadmill was stopped and the propellor or turbine wasn't going because the treadmill's speed is determained by the plane's speed and if the plane ain't goin anywhere, then neither is the treadmill.

[{X}Echo419]

You are not making it harder, you are just making the wheels spin faster. The entire point is that people like you have a hard time grasping that there are vehicles that move by the thrust of something other than their wheels and thats why some people automatically assume that the plane won't fly. A plane's wheels are nothing more than bearings to lower the rolling resistance to taking off. It's not like anyone is suggesting that we build a runway that is a moving sidewalk. It is just an exercise for the mind to think "outside the box".


the propeller dosen't "push the air over the wings of the plane. it simply "moves" the plane when the wheelz aren't touching the ground. to KEEP THE AIR FLOWING OVER & UNDER THE WINGS!
yes the planes "speed" is determined by the engine. NOT IT'S ABILITY TO FLY!

I said that earlier you dumbass. you've obviously never heard of people thinking a plane can achieve flight without actually covering any distance on a treadmill. :321:

[joecoolfreak]

It might be easier if I simplify this...if a treadmill is running at it's top speed and you run just fast enough to not fall off, how fast are you really going? The answer is 0. The person next to the treadmill is just standing there and he is going just as fast.

[{X}Echo419]

It might be easier if I simplify this...if a treadmill is running at it's top speed and you run just fast enough to not fall off, how fast are you really going? The answer is 0. The person next to the treadmill is just standing there and he is going just as fast.

no shit douch bag. go drive your Barretta off a cliff :2up:

[BABY J]

What makes the plane move is the engines acting on the ambient air. The fact that it begins to move at all has nothing to do with its form of contact with the ground - beyond overcoming negligable wheel bearing friction. It starts creeping forward, and the belt creeps backwards, making the wheels turn faster (but still slowly at this
stage, but hardly braking the advance of the plane). Since the wheels can rotate freely, the plane continues to accelerate, as does the belt, the wheels spinning even faster, much faster than in the other definition of the problem, I admit, and maybe at takeoff at some extremely high speed.

As I pointed out, the plane's propulsion by its engines can be compared with its being pulled by a cable parallel to the ground - or your pushing a roller skate forward on a treadmill or conveyor belt. You can do it, despite the counter motion of the belt.

Since we are assuming no practical problems (bearings' freezing up, tires' flying to pieces, the existence of the conveyor belt), let's take it to the extreme and assume absolutely no friction from the wheel bearings.

It this case, the belt could be flapping along the runway before the plane even starts it engines and the plane would still stand still - no bearing friction, no overcoming of the inertia of the motionless plane. The engines start, the plane moves forwards, regardless of what the wheels and belt are doing.

By assuming zero friction in this hypothetical situation, they no longer are part of the equation. If the belt were moving in the direction of takeoff, with zero bearings' friction, it would also have no effect on the plane.

[JennB]

I really wish I knew why this was so hard for people to understand. The plane will take off. The wheels on a plane have nothing at all to do with the movement of the plane, they might as well not even be there. They spin freely and will just spin faster and faster no matter how fast the treadmill moves. Wheels cannot hinder the forward movement of a plane.

[joecoolfreak]

You are getting upset over this?

[{X}Echo419]

I really wish I knew why this was so hard for people to understand. The plane will take off. The wheels on a plane have nothing at all to do with the movement of the plane, they might as well not even be there. They spin freely and will just spin faster and faster no matter how fast the treadmill moves. Wheels cannot hinder the forward movement of a plane.

1st you have to get the plane off the ground, we are afterall bound by gravity.
not if the treadmill MATCHES the speed of the plane. then of course it wouldn't be going anywhere to create the drag and lift nessary for flight. as stated above.
of course if the plane goes faster, fast enough to "beat" the treadmill.

[joecoolfreak]

1st you have to get the plane off the ground, we are afterall bound by gravity.
not if the treadmill MATCHES the speed of the plane. then of course it wouldn't be going anywhere to create the drag and lift nessary for flight. as stated above.
of course if the plane goes faster, fast enough to "beat" the treadmill.

That's the part that keeps tripping you up...if plane is going 100 and the treadmill is going 100, than the wheels are going 200 and the plane is still going 100. The plane is going somewhere...it's going 100 miles per hour and there for is "beating" the treadmill although it's moving at the same speed.

[Ruiner]

1st you have to get the plane off the ground, we are afterall bound by gravity.
not if the treadmill MATCHES the speed of the plane. then of course it wouldn't be going anywhere to create the drag and lift nessary for flight. as stated above.
of course if the plane goes faster, fast enough to "beat" the treadmill.

Listen, if you are so sure in your answer, then would you like to make a wager on it? We can put our cash in escrow and hold it there.

Trust me, the plane will take off. All the treadmill will do is spin the wheels of the plane faster. Nothing more.

Don't tell me that you think that a plane uses the wheels for power?

Perhaps you can tell me how THIS takes off since it has no wheels:

http://usmbooks.com/images/DvR9.jpg

[Ruiner]

Fuck, my hope for the future intelligence of the younger generation is quicky going down the drain. Wanna know why we have so many issues with today's kids? The answer is the people that do not believe that the plane will take off. *sigh*

[JennB]

That's the part that keeps tripping you up...if plane is going 100 and the treadmill is going 100, than the wheels are going 200 and the plane is still going 100. The plane is going somewhere...it's going 100 miles per hour and there for is "beating" the treadmill although it's moving at the same speed.

Ding ding ding!

They will just move at the same speeds, in opposite directions with the wheels spinning like crazy in the middle.

[{X}Echo419]

That's the part that keeps tripping you up...if plane is going 100 and the treadmill is going 100, than the wheels are going 200 and the plane is still going 100. The plane is going somewhere...it's going 100 miles per hour and there for is "beating" the treadmill although it's moving at the same speed.

It might be easier if I simplify this...if a treadmill is running at it's top speed and you run just fast enough to not fall off, how fast are you really going? The answer is 0. The person next to the treadmill is just standing there and he is going just as fast.

you are contradicting yourself, DUMBASS!

if the treadmill is doing 100 and the plane's propeller is doing what off of a treadmill would be 100 the plane would not be going anywhere! the plane would simply be keeping it's place on the treadmill instead of falling off the back.
sit the plane on the treadmill(OFF) start the treadmill and it will fall off of the back. there must be some sort of force on the plane(ie the propeller) ot maintain the speed of the treadmill underneath it.
post againto make yourself look even more ignorant.

[{X}Echo419]

Listen, if you are so sure in your answer, then would you like to make a wager on it? We can put our cash in escrow and hold it there.

Trust me, the plane will take off. All the treadmill will do is spin the wheels of the plane faster. Nothing more.

Don't tell me that you think that a plane uses the wheels for power?

Perhaps you can tell me how THIS takes off since it has no wheels:

http://usmbooks.com/images/DvR9.jpg

http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/fltmidfly.htm
that's how.

IT IS NOT ON A TREADMILL KEEPING IT FROM GAING ACTUAL SPEED. WITHOUT SPEED NO LIFT AND DRAG CAN BE CREATED.
DID YOU FORGET ABOUT GRAVITY?

[JennB]

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/060203.html

[joecoolfreak]

Still haven't got it have you? The speed of the plane isn't determained by the wheels and it isn't determained by how fast the propeller is spinning. It is determained by how far it goes in a certain time. Very simple concept. In your senerio, assuming that the plane has good bearings(ie...low resistance)...then the propellors would barely have to work to maintain a stationary position. Just enough to overcome the rolling resistance. As soon as you rev up the engine to take off capacity, the plane will move forward and take off just as it normally would regardless of how fast the treadmill goes because the wheels have a definate amount of friction and it doesn't matter how fast they are going.

[joecoolfreak]

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/060203.html

Thank you Jenn
States everything that has already been said and the bottom line...the plane takes off.

[{X}Echo419]

Still haven't got it have you? The speed of the plane isn't determained by the wheels and it isn't determained by how fast the propeller is spinning. It is determained by how far it goes in a certain time. Very simple concept. In your senerio, assuming that the plane has good bearings(ie...low resistance)...then the propellors would barely have to work to maintain a stationary position. Just enough to overcome the rolling resistance. As soon as you rev up the engine to take off capacity, the plane will move forward and take off just as it normally would regardless of how fast the treadmill goes because the wheels have a definate amount of friction and it doesn't matter how fast they are going.

are you reading?

OF COURSE THE PLANE IS NOT PROPELLED FORWARD BY IT'S WHEELS!

take the wheels off and put the plane on the ground. now fly it hot shot.

[joecoolfreak]

this is correct! DRAG makes a plane fly! the wind traveling over the wings creates "DRAG". without it the plane will not take off.
think about it. are the wheels on the plane powered at all? no.
put a FAT A$$ fan in front of that treadmill(and boy it would have to be big) to simulate the air traveling over the wings and the mutha fooker will rise.
I can't believe some of you actually believe a plane would fly on a treadmill.

And this is where it all started...The question was asked...you said no, the plane won't fly...I say yes it will. The answer...yes it will.

[{X}Echo419]

Thank you Jenn
States everything that has already been said and the bottom line...the plane takes off.

there is NO forward movement. IT'S ON A DAMN CONVAYER BELT!

[{X}Echo419]

And this is where it all started...The question was asked...you said no, the plane won't fly...I say yes it will. The answer...yes it will.

WHAT makes a plane fly? huh? go ahead. lets hear what you "think".
here's some help.
http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/fltmidfly.htm

[JennB]

take the wheels off and put the plane on the ground. now fly it hot shot.

Ok. If there wasn't friction caused by the rough ground that would rip the poor little plane's belly off, the engines would still suck in air and pull it forward.

[joecoolfreak]

there is NO forward movement. IT'S ON A DAMN CONVAYER BELT!

In your mock up senerio....taking a rc plan and putting it on a treadmill at the gym...Assume that you placed the plane on while everything was stopped...put your hand behind the plane and then turn on the treadmill full speed....how hard would you have to "push" the plane to keep it stationary (assuming that the plane had "free motion" wheels on the bottom)?

[joecoolfreak]

WHAT makes a plane fly? huh? go ahead. lets hear what you "think".
here's some help.
http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/fltmidfly.htm

And just for the record...I have actually flown a plane...have you? There is a reason that everyone is disagreeing with you...you don't get it...

[speedminded]

lolol, i'm really going to throw all of you off but how much force do you think you would need to apply to an aircraft to keep it stationary on a treadmill....VERY little. Would you need to push the plane the same speed as the treadmill to keep it stationary...NO. That exact same force will hold the plane from moving, whether the treadmill is going 2mph or 100mph. Try it, put a skate board on a treadmill and hold it with your finger as someone turns the speed up...does it get any harder to hold the skateboard stationary? No. With that said, the minimal force to hold the plane stationary would probably be far less than what it takes to taxi it on a runway...Once the throttle is turned up the plane will move forward and take off no differantly than a stationary runway.

[{X}Echo419]

In your mock up senerio....taking a rc plan and putting it on a treadmill at the gym...Assume that you placed the plane on while everything was stopped...put your hand behind the plane and then turn on the treadmill full speed....how hard would you have to "push" the plane to keep it stationary (assuming that the plane had "free motion" wheels on the bottom)?

not hard at all.

you still haven't been able to tell me how the complete lack of speed(look that up yourself) of the plane makes the plane fly.
LIFT and Drag are considered aerodynamic forces because they exist due to the movement of the aircraft through the air. not it's spinning wheels and spinning propeller going nowhere.

[speedminded]

In your mock up senerio....taking a rc plan and putting it on a treadmill at the gym...Assume that you placed the plane on while everything was stopped...put your hand behind the plane and then turn on the treadmill full speed....how hard would you have to "push" the plane to keep it stationary (assuming that the plane had "free motion" wheels on the bottom)?damn, you beat me to it.

[speedminded]

not hard at all.

you still haven't been able to tell me how the complete lack of speed(look that up yourself) of the plane makes the plane fly.
LIFT and Drag are considered aerodynamic forces because they exist due to the movement of the aircraft through the air. not it's spinning wheels and spinning propeller going nowhere.*shakes head* What lack of speed? there is NOTHING to prevent the plane from going forward...ZIP, ZERO, ZILCH.

[joecoolfreak]

Echo...I completely understand that the plane must move through the air to take off. I am not argueing that point at all. The point is that it doesn't matter how fast the conveyer belt moves, the plane will still move forward through the air and take off. It's "speed" is determained by how far it goes in a certain time and therefore must move forward. The fact the "ground" is moving backwards is irrelevant. If it stood stationary then it's speed would be 0 and therefore according to the original question...the belt moves at the speed of the plane, so if the plane is moving at a speed of 0, the the belt isn't moving at all.

[{X}Echo419]

And just for the record...I have actually flown a plane...have you? There is a reason that everyone is disagreeing with you...you don't get it...

did you fly it off a treadmill? ask your instructor about LIFT and Drag. and how MOVEMENT through the air achieve L/D.

yeah, the reason is you people don't damn get it....do ..y..yo...you?

[speedminded]

Echo...I completely understand that the plane must move through the air to take off. I am not argueing that point at all. The point is that it doesn't matter how fast the conveyer belt moves, the plane will still move forward through the air and take off. It's "speed" is determained by how far it goes in a certain time and therefore must move forward. The fact the "ground" is moving backwards is irrelevant. If it stood stationary then it's speed would be 0 and therefore according to the original question...the belt moves at the speed of the plane, so if the plane is moving at a speed of 0, the the belt isn't moving at all.he thinks the plane on a conveyor would act as a car on a dyno...except one thing, A PLANE IS NOT POWERED BY IT'S WHEELS... PERIOD.

[{X}Echo419]

*shakes head* What lack of speed? there is NOTHING to prevent the plane from going forward...ZIP, ZERO, ZILCH.

yeah there is. the treadmill!

[{X}Echo419]

Echo...I completely understand that the plane must move through the air to take off. I am not argueing that point at all. The point is that it doesn't matter how fast the conveyer belt moves, the plane will still move forward through the air and take off. It's "speed" is determained by how far it goes in a certain time and therefore must move forward. The fact the "ground" is moving backwards is irrelevant. If it stood stationary then it's speed would be 0 and therefore according to the original question...the belt moves at the speed of the plane, so if the plane is moving at a speed of 0, the the belt isn't moving at all.
right so it wouldn't fly @ a zero speed

[Ruiner]

there is NO forward movement. IT'S ON A DAMN CONVAYER BELT!

Put your money where your mouth is. :)

[joecoolfreak]

he thinks the plane on a conveyor would act as a car on a dyno...except one thing, A PLANE IS NOT POWERED BY IT'S WHEELS... PERIOD.

I know...I give up...I have tried to explain it about 8 different ways and I guess I am just not up to the task. Somewhere in his mind he knows that it takes very little pressure by his hand to hold the plane stationary but can't link that to the fact that his hand is the "propeller" in this case and still gets the whole concept of speed messed up in there.

[speedminded]

did you fly it off a treadmill? ask your instructor about LIFT and Drag. and how MOVEMENT through the air achieve L/D.

yeah, the reason is you people don't damn get it....do ..y..yo...you?Wrong, you don't get it. The treadmill in no way what so ever will prevent the plane from moving forward.

[Ruiner]

yeah there is. the treadmill!

Umm, the treadmill ONLY makes the wheels spin faster, that's it. You understand that, right?

[{X}Echo419]

he thinks the plane on a conveyor would act as a car on a dyno...except one thing, A PLANE IS NOT POWERED BY IT'S WHEELS... PERIOD.

ummmm, no I don't. the conveyor belt prevents the plane from ataining speed. thus the lift and drag on the plane

[{X}Echo419]

Put your money where your mouth is. :)

what cha doin' saturday afternoon

[Xan]

not hard at all.

you still haven't been able to tell me how the complete lack of speed(look that up yourself) of the plane makes the plane fly.
LIFT and Drag are considered aerodynamic forces because they exist due to the movement of the aircraft through the air. not it's spinning wheels and spinning propeller going nowhere.

You are looking at this the wrong way. The aircraft doesn't move through the air. Air moves around the aircraft. The wheels aren't providing the thrust, thus ground speed has no bearing in the lift and drag equation. Wind speed provided by the propeller, not the wheels is what lifts an airplane into the air. Of course this only works on prop planes. Jets need ground speed because they are being pushed, not pulled.

[JennB]

I can post more and more of these...

http://txfx.net/2005/12/08/airplane-on-a-conveyor-belt/

http://mouser.org/log/archives/2006/02/001003.html

[{X}Echo419]

Umm, the treadmill ONLY makes the wheels spin faster, that's it. You understand that, right?

ummmm, no I don't. the conveyor belt prevents the plane from ataining speed. thus the lift and drag on the plane


you do understand that in order for lift and drag to occur over the wings the plane must be GOING SOMEWHERE! not just spinning on a treadmill.

[joecoolfreak]

You are looking at this the wrong way. The aircraft doesn't move through the air. Air moves around the aircraft. The wheels aren't providing the thrust, thus ground speed has no bearing in the lift and drag equation. Wind speed provided by the propeller, not the wheels is what lifts an airplane into the air. Of course this only works on prop planes. Jets need ground speed because they are being pushed, not pulled.

You are incorrect sir...the propeller pulls through the air and the jet pushes through the air. The result is the same, the body of mass moves through the air and the air is then moved over the wings. A jet will take off just as easily as a plane.

[Z0_o6]

so if a water plane is taking off against a current that matches its speed it wont take off? same basic principle.

[speedminded]

ummmm, no I don't. the conveyor belt prevents the plane from ataining speed. thus the lift and drag on the planeLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Do you agree that no matter the speed of the conveyor the force to hold the airplane stationary would be the same? Just like my analogy to hold a skateboard stationary on a treadmill. With that said, and you already agreed the force to hold it stationary is minimal, what happens when you apply more power to the planes engines?

[joecoolfreak]

so if a water plane is taking off against a current that matches its speed it wont take off? same basic principle.
repost

[Big Baller]

Currently there are 16 people that are stupid

[Ruiner]

you do understand that in order for lift and drag to occur over the wings the plane must be GOING SOMEWHERE! not just spinning on a treadmill.

Yes, but if a treadmill can only make the free rolling wheels spin faster, what is to prevent the plane from pushing forward? Nothing. It's so very simple. The answer is right in front of you. If the treadmill only spins the wheels, then the plane will move forward. :)

[{X}Echo419]

This is a quote from NASA. The Venturi effect is based on Bernelli's theory.

When a gas flows over an object, or when an object moves through a gas, the molecules of the gas are free to move about the object; they are not closely bound to one another as in a solid. Because the molecules move, there is a velocity associated with the gas. Within the gas, the velocity can have very different values at different places near the object. Bernoulli's equation, which was named for Daniel Bernoulli, relates the pressure in a gas to the local velocity; so as the velocity changes around the object, the pressure changes as well. Adding up (integrating) the pressure variation times the area around the entire body determines the aerodynamic force on the body. The lift is the component of the aerodynamic force which is perpendicular to the original flow direction of the gas. The drag is the component of the aerodynamic force which is parallel to the original flow direction of the gas. Now adding up the velocity variation around the object instead of the pressure variation also determines the aerodynamic force. The integrated velocity variation around the object produces a net turning of the gas flow. From Newton's third law of motion, a turning action of the flow will result in a re-action (aerodynamic force) on the object. So both "Bernoulli" and "Newton" are correct. Integrating the effects of either the pressure or the velocity determines the aerodynamic force on an object. We can use equations developed by each of them to determine the magnitude and direction of the aerodynamic force.

Hope that helps. There must be flow/velocity in order for the plane to lift off

[joecoolfreak]

There will be flow and velocity...because the plane will move forward...there is nothing to keep it from moving forward.

[{X}Echo419]

Yes, but if a treadmill can only make the free rolling wheels spin faster, what is to prevent the plane from pushing forward? Nothing. It's so very simple. The answer is right in front of you. If the treadmill only spins the wheels, then the plane will move forward. :)

there's NO WIND PASSING OVER THE WINGS! it won't fly. NEWTON SAYS SO :eye:

[Z0_o6]

even on a treadmill there will be airflow around the wings.

[joecoolfreak]

You are stuck on the wrong concept echo...explain how the treadmill will prevent the plane from moving forward...that will help you

[{X}Echo419]

There will be flow and velocity...because the plane will move forward...there is nothing to keep it from moving forward.

it's not moving forward. it's on a convayer belt. if you stand nest to the convayer belt the plane will remain in the same spot next to you.

[Z0_o6]

no it wont

[joecoolfreak]

Again...what keeps it from moving forward...specifically...what part of the belt and plane touch?

[speedminded]

This is a quote from NASA. The Venturi effect is based on Bernelli's theory.

When a gas flows over an object, or when an object moves through a gas, the molecules of the gas are free to move about the object; they are not closely bound to one another as in a solid. Because the molecules move, there is a velocity associated with the gas. Within the gas, the velocity can have very different values at different places near the object. Bernoulli's equation, which was named for Daniel Bernoulli, relates the pressure in a gas to the local velocity; so as the velocity changes around the object, the pressure changes as well. Adding up (integrating) the pressure variation times the area around the entire body determines the aerodynamic force on the body. The lift is the component of the aerodynamic force which is perpendicular to the original flow direction of the gas. The drag is the component of the aerodynamic force which is parallel to the original flow direction of the gas. Now adding up the velocity variation around the object instead of the pressure variation also determines the aerodynamic force. The integrated velocity variation around the object produces a net turning of the gas flow. From Newton's third law of motion, a turning action of the flow will result in a re-action (aerodynamic force) on the object. So both "Bernoulli" and "Newton" are correct. Integrating the effects of either the pressure or the velocity determines the aerodynamic force on an object. We can use equations developed by each of them to determine the magnitude and direction of the aerodynamic force.

Hope that helps. There must be flow/velocity in order for the plane to lift offQuit worrying about how a fucking airplane flies...It has nothing to do with whether the plane will move forward or not. We know a fucking stationary airplane is not going to fly, can you not grasp the concept that a conveyor WILL NOT prevent a plane from moving forward?

[{X}Echo419]

Quit worrying about how a fucking airplane flies...It has nothing to do with whether the plane will move forward or not. We know a fucking stationary airplane is not going to fly, can you not grasp the concept that a conveyor WILL NOT prevent a plane from moving forward?

yeah, cause THAT dosen't have to do with anything.... :eye:
yes it will. go buy a plane and we'll get together this weekend and I will laugh @ you.

[joecoolfreak]

Echo...you still haven't answer my last question...it will help you to figure this out...one step at a time

[speedminded]

it's not moving forward. it's on a convayer belt. if you stand nest to the convayer belt the plane will remain in the same spot next to you.ok you're right, it will remain stationary...until you actually apply power to the engines....now what's preventing it from moving itself forward?

Here's ANOTHER analogy for you. Sit on a skateboard on a treadmill with a rope tied infront of you. Does the treadmill prevent you from pulling yourself forward?

[speedminded]

yeah, cause THAT dosen't have to do with anything.... :eye:
yes it will. go buy a plane and we'll get together this weekend and I will laugh @ you.I have access to 3 planes and a helicopter at my disposal with just a phone call (as long as the owners are with me). Not to mention I am sitting 4 feet from a licensed flight instructor. The only person getting laughed at is you my friend.

[JennB]

And another one... this one from an aviation website

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/191034-1.html

[{X}Echo419]

ok you're right, it will remain stationary...until you actually apply power to the engines....now what's preventing it from moving itself forward?

Here's ANOTHER analogy for you. Sit on a skateboard on a treadmill with a rope tied infront of you. Does the treadmill prevent you from pulling yourself forward?

OMFG! did you copy and paste this from 3 pages ago?

NO SHIT! if the plane goes faster than the convayer belt it will take off. of course since normally the plane goes faster than the STATIONARY ground it takes off there to.
you obviously don't understand what peopla are saying here.
some, are saying that you don't have to go faster than the convayer belt to take off. which of course is not true. this dumbass that posted above me thinks that. she keeps quoting nut cases in a feble attempt to promote her foolsih argument

[{X}Echo419]

And another one... this one from an aviation website

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/191034-1.html

give these guys a call.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/findPage.do?dsp=fec&ci=1&rsbci=15047&fti=0&ti=0&sc=400

[JennB]

Will do.


And while I do that, try reading all of the links I've posted with experts clearly saying that it will take off.

[joecoolfreak]

what we are saying is that it doesn't matter how fast the conveyer belt goes. It could go 1mph or 1000 and the plane will still move forward and take off. The reason is because the only thing that the belt touches is the wheels and they have no effect on the propulsion of the plane... They move indepentantly of the plane and that is what we are trying to make you see.

[Xan]

You are incorrect sir...the propeller pulls through the air and the jet pushes through the air. The result is the same, the body of mass moves through the air and the air is then moved over the wings. A jet will take off just as easily as a plane.

Wrong. The source of propulsion on a prop aircraft is at the front of the plane. Hense "pulled through the air." Jets "push" from the rear. When a propeller turns it forces air past the wings. When a jet engine pushes it forces the wings through the air. Jets require ground speed to take off because air isn't forced around the wings, the wings are forced through the air. Therefore, the wings would actually have to be moving for a jet propelled aircraft to gain lift.

[speedminded]

yeah, cause THAT dosen't have to do with anything.... :eye:
yes it will. go buy a plane and we'll get together this weekend and I will laugh @ you.So now are you saying that a single engine prop plane cannot move forward if its wings were removed? As i said, since the idea behind the original question is far beyond your relm of reasoning quit thinking about how a plane flies and just determine if the conveyor will prevent a plane from moving forward.

[speedminded]

Wrong. The source of propulsion on a prop aircraft is at the front of the plane. Hense "pulled through the air." Jets "push" from the rear. When a propeller turns it forces air past the wings. When a jet engine pushes it forces the wings through the air. Jets require ground speed to take off because air isn't forced around the wings, the wings are forced through the air. Therefore, the wings would actually have to be moving for a jet propelled aircraft to gain lift.It doesn't matter if it's a jet or a prop or fucking pedal powered. The plane WILL move forward whether it's pulling itself my way of propellor or pushing it via jet engine.

[{X}Echo419]

Will do.
I can hear it now:

JennB: Hi, is this Lockheed Martin>
LM: yes, can I help you?
JB: Yeah, if I put a plane on a convayer belt to prevent it from ataining speed will it take off?
LM: silly bitch, who told you that? is this a prank call? lift and drag don't happen just because you crank up the plane. don't ever call me with a stupid question like that again.

or something "like" that. :D

[{X}Echo419]

So now are you saying that a single engine prop plane cannot move forward if its wings were removed? As i said, since the idea behind the original question is far beyond your relm of reasoning quit thinking about how a plane flies and just determine if the conveyor will prevent a plane from moving forward.

No, it will move. just not FLY. :eye:

[joecoolfreak]

Wrong. The source of propulsion on a prop aircraft is at the front of the plane. Hense "pulled through the air." Jets "push" from the rear. When a propeller turns it forces air past the wings. When a jet engine pushes it forces the wings through the air. Jets require ground speed to take off because air isn't forced around the wings, the wings are forced through the air. Therefore, the wings would actually have to be moving for a jet propelled aircraft to gain lift.

Not quite,

You are stuck the same place that echo is. The plane or jet moves forward because there is nothing stopping it. See Speed's question about a plane with no wings...The plane will still move forward with out them whether it is pushed or pulled. Now put the wings back on and you will see that it doesn't matter whether it is a jet or a plane, it will take off regardless of belt speed.

[speedminded]

OMFG! did you copy and paste this from 3 pages ago?

NO SHIT! if the plane goes faster than the convayer belt it will take off. of course since normally the plane goes faster than the STATIONARY ground it takes off there to.
you obviously don't understand what peopla are saying here.
some, are saying that you don't have to go faster than the convayer belt to take off. which of course is not true. this dumbass that posted above me thinks that. she keeps quoting nut cases in a feble attempt to promote her foolsih argumentSo you are still arguing that the speed of the conveyor has an effect on how much force it takes to hold the plane stationary? Did you not remember our analogy of the skateboard on the treadmill? Do you think you have to push harder on the skateboard as the speed of the treadmill is increased to keep it from moving backwards?

[joecoolfreak]

No, it will move. just not FLY. :eye:

If it moves...then put the wings back on and it would fly....or are you saying that it is the combination of a belt and wings that stops it?

[speedminded]

I can hear it now:

JennB: Hi, is this Lockheed Martin>
LM: yes, can I help you?
JB: Yeah, if I put a plane on a convayer belt to prevent it from ataining speed will it take off?
LM: silly bitch, who told you that? is this a prank call? lift and drag don't happen just because you crank up the plane. don't ever call me with a stupid question like that again.

or something "like" that. :DYou are just making yourself look incredibaly ignorant in front of some of IA's most educated. lol.

[JennB]

I can hear it now:

JennB: Hi, is this Lockheed Martin>
LM: yes, can I help you?
JB: Yeah, if I put a plane on a convayer belt to prevent it from ataining speed will it take off?
LM: silly bitch, who told you that? is this a prank call? lift and drag don't happen just because you crank up the plane. don't ever call me with a stupid question like that again.

or something "like" that. :D

You suck at life.

And please learn to spell conveyor.

May I ask what field you are educated in?

[speedminded]

You suck at life.

And please learn to spell conveyor.

May I ask what field you are educated in?aeronautical engineering :tongue:

[{X}Echo419]

If it moves...then put the wings back on and it would fly....or are you saying that it is the combination of a belt and wings that stops it?

yes, the belt keeps the plane from ataining speed. thus no wind is passing over the wings. thus the plane won't fly.

[BABY J]

You didn't like my TECHNICAL answers echo, so let me break it down to you. ---> Unbefuckinglievable. Think about it. Jet engines push air not dirt. Therefore a treadmill can not & will not be able to halt (yes it will BARELY slow it though due to friction... too minute to mention) the progress of a jet which is not getting velocity from pushing dirt but from the jet pushing air. If a jet used big fucking engines attached to the wheels to gain enough speed to fling itself into the air then it would never get off the ground. BUT IT DOESN'T, it uses (pushes) air to create it's forward velocity, which creates airflow over the wings, which creates lift, which achieves flight. **ding** Chicken or beef sir?

[joecoolfreak]

th belt keeps the plane from ataining speed. thus no wind is passing over the wings. thus the plane won't fly.

How?????? Please explain why....

[Xan]

It doesn't matter if it's a jet or a prop or fucking pedal powered. The plane WILL move forward whether it's pulling itself my way of propellor or pushing it via jet engine.

You completely missed my point. I was saying that if you put a jet aircraft to this test it wouldn't take off because it isn't moving air around the wings. A propeller doesn't work this way. A prop aircraft WILL take off on a treadmill NO MATTER HOW FAST THE TREADMILL IS GOING because WINDSPEED IS THE ONLY FACTOR HERE and windspeed is controlled by the propeller, not the wheels.

[{X}Echo419]

How?????? Please explain why....

it's not GOING ANYWHERE! that's how!

[joecoolfreak]

Why????? as soon as you figure this little part out...you will be in the clear....It doesn't hold the plane back...it just spins the wheels...the wheels don't have a damn thing to do with the plane.

[{X}Echo419]

PUT UP OR SHUT UP FOLKS! you guy get together by a plane and pm me and we'll settle this saturday or sunday. come on if you're sooo right you have nothing to worry about.

[{X}Echo419]

Why????? as soon as you figure this little part out...you will be in the clear....It doesn't hold the plane back...it just spins the wheels...the wheels don't have a damn thing to do with the plane.
yes they do.....friction...GRAVITY!!!! SPEED NESSARY FOR THE WIND TO PASS OVER THE WINGS AND THE PLANE....

[joecoolfreak]

I will take that offer...how much would you like to wager?

[speedminded]

You completely missed my point. I was saying that if you put a jet aircraft to this test it wouldn't take off because it isn't moving air around the wings. A propeller doesn't work this way. A prop aircraft WILL take off on a treadmill NO MATTER HOW FAST THE TREADMILL IS GOING because WINDSPEED IS THE ONLY FACTOR HERE and windspeed is controlled by the propeller, not the wheels.*sigh* *shakes head* Wings provide lift. Whether it's jet of prop both have to have air over around the wings to fly. AGAIN, quit worrying about how a plane flies and just determine why or why not a plane can move forward on a conveyor.

[{X}Echo419]

PUT UP OR SHUT UP FOLKS! you guy get together by a plane and pm me and we'll settle this saturday or sunday. come on if you're sooo right you have nothing to worry about.
last time. what's it gonna be.

[joecoolfreak]

This is the deal...I will go out and buy a model plane...most likely a cheap one powered by rubber bands....just to prove this to you. A rubber band powered plane can do this...I will put the plane on the belt and hold it there while you set the belt to it's highest speed...when I let go of the plane and release the rubber band...it will fly, but I am not going to all that trouble if it isn't worth my while.

[joecoolfreak]

So...I am taking you up...wager?

[BABY J]

You suck at life.

And please learn to spell conveyor.

May I ask what field you are educated in?

**to ECHO**

--> Aeronautical Engineering, Embry Riddle (pursuing)
--> Computer Science (FINISHED)

Also might I add this pic... I know more about flying and achieving flight than most people on this board. LOL. Although the Air Force NEVER let me try to launch the E-3 Sentry AWACS aircraft from a treadmill. The NERVE of them!! LOL Hey ECHO, note the wings on the uniform and the flight suit... you don't get those by staying on the ground all day. LOL.

[joecoolfreak]

Waiting.........................

[umairejaz]

^^LOL... +1 for sure.

Echo your fuckin stupid :D

[joecoolfreak]

Still waiting...you said put up..I am...shall we say 200?

[Xan]

*sigh* *shakes head* Wings provide lift. Whether it's jet of prop both have to have air over around the wings to fly. AGAIN, quit worrying about how a plane flies and just determine why or why not a plane can move forward on a conveyor.

How thrust is provided has everything to do with this discussion. Air forced around the wings are what provide lift, this is true. How the air is forced around them is what makes the difference.

[BABY J]

How thrust is provided has everything to do with this discussion. Air forced around the wings are what provide lift, this is true. How the air is forced around them is what makes the difference.

No offense. But stop talking. (You're still a QT... let's do dinner :) )

**to Echo**

1) Will the plane move forward on the conveyor?

[joecoolfreak]

Air is forced around the wings by it's movement through the air regardless of type of thrust...

[The Ninja]

i don't believe the plane will take off....its just like sittin in place and running the engine high....the plane isn't actually moving forward thus splitting the air around the wings and (the flaps) forcing the air down in turn pushing the air up.

[Brady]

sheesh brandon...let it die ;)

[BABY J]

i don't believe the plane will take off....its just like sittin in place and running the engine high....the plane isn't actually moving forward thus splitting the air around the wings and (the flaps) forcing the air down in turn pushing the air up.

You stop talking too. :eye: Stick to cars. Echo... answer my question.

1) Will the plane move forward on the conveyor?

[Xan]

No offense. But stop talking. (You're still a QT... let's do dinner :) )

**to Echo**

1) Will the plane move forward on the conveyor?

LOL. What's a "QT lets do dinner?"

Do you atleast get what I'm saying?

[joecoolfreak]

dear lord....they are all coming out of the woodwork now...It stand's right here...I am done trying to convince all of you that this works...I am putting my money here on the line...if you don't think it works...take me up on my 200 wager.

[BABY J]

LOL. What's a "QT lets do dinner?"

Do you atleast get what I'm saying?

QT = Cutie. Dinner = food. Now hush.

ECHO!!!!

1) Will the plane move forward on the conveyor?

[2.0civic]

No... backwards and forwards movement = the plane is standing still, even though the wheels are moving. Planes count on airflow to get lift.... you don't feel a breeze when you run on a treadmill.. therefore, no lift = no flying.


no airflow= no lift

[BABY J]

dear lord....they are all coming out of the woodwork now...It stand's right here...I am done trying to convince all of you that this works...I am putting my money here on the line...if you don't think it works...take me up on my 200 wager.

Troo stupidity = contagious. Breeds fast. ;)


ECHO!!!!

1) Will the plane move forward on the conveyor?

[joecoolfreak]

no airflow= no lift

Geez....we know planes need airflow to lift....the point is that the plane will move forward and therefore have airflow. Still waiting on someone with the balls to try and prove me wrong.

[{X}Echo419]

**to ECHO**

--> Aeronautical Engineering, Embry Riddle (pursuing)
--> Computer Science (FINISHED)

Also might I add this pic... I know more about flying and achieving flight than most people on this board. LOL. Although the Air Force NEVER let me try to launch the E-3 Sentry AWACS aircraft from a treadmill. The NERVE of them!! LOL Hey ECHO, note the wings on the uniform and the flight suit... you don't get those by staying on the ground all day. LOL.

I didn't know the Air Force had uniforms? wow, almost looks like a REAL 1. maybe 1 day they'll get to use Real guns...

[Xan]

QT = Cutie. Dinner = food. Now hush.

ECHO!!!!

1) Will the plane move forward on the conveyor?

If the treadmill is designed to match the windspeed of the plane then your answer is no.

[man]

why'dyou bring this up again brandon?

[joecoolfreak]

I didn't know the Air Force had uniforms? wow, almost looks like a REAL 1. maybe 1 day they'll get to use Real guns...

I would love to see you say that to someone's face that was in the air force...I personally was army and I wouldn't mess with most of those guys...keep in mind, they have the biggest guns.

[Xan]

Did anyone see the Flight of the Phoenix remake? The part where the Pilot finds out the guy designs model aircraft. Then the big gust of wind comes through the the airplanes trys to take off STANDING STILL. Principles still apply.

[BABY J]

I didn't know the Air Force had uniforms? wow, almost looks like a REAL 1. maybe 1 day they'll get to use Real guns...

Cute. My 8 years of sacrifices is what gives you the freedom to say that. You're welcome. However, I do not need your "thanks", I volunteered.



1) Will the plane move forward on the conveyor?

[{X}Echo419]

No offense. But stop talking. (You're still a QT... let's do dinner :) )

**to Echo**

1) Will the plane move forward on the conveyor?
no.
if it does and does it Fast enough then yes. it's very possible given enough speed.


i don't believe the plane will take off....its just like sittin in place and running the engine high....the plane isn't actually moving forward thus splitting the air around the wings and (the flaps) forcing the air down in turn pushing the air up.

that's what I'm saying.

[{X}Echo419]

If the treadmill is designed to match the windspeed of the plane then your answer is no.
Thank you! gawd!

[joecoolfreak]

And what we are saying is that there is no possibility of it standing still....can't happen

[{X}Echo419]

Cute. My 8 years of sacrifices is what gives you the freedom to say that. You're welcome. However, I do not need your "thanks", I volunteered.



1) Will the plane move forward on the conveyor?

you don't know me.

[BABY J]

no.
if it does and does it Fast enough then yes. it's very possible given enough speed.



that's what I'm saying.

Choose. Yes or no. You were so sure before... be sure now... YES OR NO!!! WILL IT MOVE ON THE CONVERYOR WHEN THE ENGINES ARE STARTED??? Think about it... I am putting my trust in you that you are not a TRUE idiot. You can do it... think about it.:rolleyes:

[speedminded]

Did anyone see the Flight of the Phoenix remake? The part where the Pilot finds out the guy designs model aircraft. Then the big gust of wind comes through the the airplanes trys to take off STANDING STILL. Principles still apply.negative. But you prove a great point, that wind force is against the plane so it can't move forward BUT what part of the plane is the conveyor belts force against? The wheels. The freefuckinspinnin wheels. the conveyor no matter the speed will not prevent the plane from moving forward.

[man]

If the treadmill is designed to match the windspeed of the plane then your answer is no.

Answer is still yes.

Here's another concept to grasp since the free-rolling wheels seem too hard.

If the conveyor matches the windspeed of the plane, the plane would have to be moving for the conveyor to move. If the plane isn't moving there is no speed and once the plane is moving it's not gonna stop.

[BABY J]

Answer is still yes.

Here's another concept to grasp since the free-rolling wheels seem too hard.

If the conveyor matches the windspeed of the plane, the plane would have to be moving for the conveyor to move. If the plane isn't moving there is no speed and once the plane is moving it's not gonna stop.

I love you. Will you marry my sister? She has a husband but FUCK him. I'll set it up.

[joecoolfreak]

I love you. Will you marry my sister? She has a husband but FUCK him. I'll set it up.

Thank you....been said several times, but it just doesn't click.

[man]

I love you. Will you marry my sister? She has a husband but FUCK him. I'll set it up.

Is she hot? haha

[speedminded]

you don't know me.i do know that your logic on things is get a bigger hammer or bigger gun. Sometimes that may be neccessary but starting way back before the construction of the great pyramids the people with common sense achieved goals without that logic.

[BABY J]

you don't know me.

Likewise. That's YOUR loss.

[Xan]

Answer is still yes.

Here's another concept to grasp since the free-rolling wheels seem too hard.

If the conveyor matches the windspeed of the plane, the plane would have to be moving for the conveyor to move. If the plane isn't moving there is no speed and once the plane is moving it's not gonna stop.

1/2 right. The plane is providing thrust, but not "moving" forward.

[{X}Echo419]

Choose. Yes or no. You were so sure before... be sure now... YES OR NO!!! WILL IT MOVE ON THE CONVERYOR WHEN THE ENGINES ARE STARTED??? Think about it... I am putting my trust in you that you are not a TRUE idiot. You can do it... think about it.:rolleyes:

you are a true idot fly boy.
1. if the converyor matches the (attempted) speed of the plane. NO

2. if the converyor is doing 1 rotation per hour then all the plane has to do is go and it will make enough speed to take off.
some of you on here can't make up their mind as to which senario they prefer.

[BABY J]

Is she hot? haha

I'd hit it. Wait a minute... WHAT AM I SAYING? LOL ;)

[joecoolfreak]

Wheels people...wheels....It doesn't matter how fast the conveyor belt goes....the wheels can spin as much as they want to....they are just bearings...they don't slow or speed up the plane.

[man]

I'd hit it. Wait a minute... WHAT AM I SAYING? LOL ;)

:eek:

[speedminded]

you are a true idot fly boy.
1. if the converyor matches the (attempted) speed of the plane. NO

2. if the converyor is doing 1 rotation per hour then all the plane has to do is go and it will make enough speed to take off.
some of you on here can't make up their mind as to which senario they prefer.How can you match the speed of the plane? IT IS NOT A DYNO, get it through your thick fucking skull. The wheels DO NOT power the plane. The speed of the conveyor has absolutely NOTHING to do with how much force it takes to hold the plane stationary or how much thrust it takes for it to take off. IT will move forward no matter the speed of the conveyor. It doesn't matter if the conveyor is going 1mph or 1,000 mph it takes the absolute same about of force to keep the plane stationary...very little at that. then once more power is applied to the engines there is nothing preventing it from moving forward.

[{X}Echo419]

Wheels people...wheels....It doesn't matter how fast the conveyor belt goes....the wheels can spin as much as they want to....they are just bearings...they don't slow or speed up the plane.

really? put your car on a dyno(I know planes aren't powered by their wheels. thanks for the info). for the sake of argument, lets say the speedometer says 100mph. is the car actually going 100mph? NO. it's sitting there with the wheels spinning. now, stick your hand out the window. is there wind shooting over it like if you were on the highway? NO. so what makes you think there will be wind going over the wings of a plane?

[speedminded]

Ok got ANOTHER one for you.

Take a skateboard and a pair of the large bottle rockets. Tape the bottle rockets to the skateboard and place on a treadmill (preferably as level as possible to replicate the conveyor & airplane) Turn on the treadmill, we agree just with your fingertip you can hold the skateboard stationary....now light the two bottle rockets....will the skateboard not launch forward?

[Xan]

really? put your car on a dyno(I know planes aren't powered by their wheels. thanks for the info). for the sake of argument, lets say the speedometer says 100mph. is the car actually going 100mph? NO. it's sitting there with the wheels spinning. now, stick your hand out the window. is there wind shooting over it like if you were on the highway? NO. so what makes you think there will be wind going over the wings of a plane?

The propeller is what's making the wheels on an airplane spin. It does this because it's forcing air backwards. Not that hard to grasp.

Edit: Better yet. Put a prop plane on a dyno. Set the windspeed to 100 MPH. Stick your head out the window. Is there wind coming back at you?

[man]

really? put your car on a dyno(I know planes aren't powered by their wheels. thanks for the info). for the sake of argument, lets say the speedometer says 100mph. is the car actually going 100mph? NO. it's sitting there with the wheels spinning. now, stick your hand out the window. is there wind shooting over it like if you were on the highway? NO. so what makes you think there will be wind going over the wings of a plane?

There has to be wind passing over the plane for it to register speed, planes don't read speed by how fast the wheels are turning.

[joecoolfreak]

The point is in that case echo the speed of the car is 0. There is no equivalent of the speedometer that measures the speed of the wheels. The original example explicitly stated the speed of the plane, so therefore it must move. The reason that it moves is because the engines push or pull it through the air and the wheels just spin freely, so it doesn't matter how fast you spin the wheels, ie..the conveyor belt in this case will spin them at the exact same speed that the plane is moving...therefor it IS moving and will have airflow for lift etc...

[BABY J]

The propeller is what's making the wheels on an airplane spin. It does this because it's forcing air backwards. Not that hard to grasp.

Null. We are talking JET aircraft. You are diluting the thread w/ the prop talk.

[speedminded]

really? put your car on a dyno(I know planes aren't powered by their wheels. thanks for the info). for the sake of argument, lets say the speedometer says 100mph. is the car actually going 100mph? NO. it's sitting there with the wheels spinning. now, stick your hand out the window. is there wind shooting over it like if you were on the highway? NO. so what makes you think there will be wind going over the wings of a plane?Your digging an even deeper hole. Because the power of the vehicle is coming from the wheels....do you not think i can walk up the back off the car and push it forward (or even pull it backwards) off the dyno as it's spinning 100mph? The force i'm using to move the car is no differant that the engine of a plane.

[GTScoob]

Old ass debate. I would still say that no the plane wont take off, a plane can takeoff standing still if it has a strong enough headwind but if it is just rolling on a conveyor belt then it's relative groundspeed (assuming no airspeed) is zero and it cannot create any lift.

[JennB]

Ok got ANOTHER one for you.

Take a skateboard and a pair of the large bottle rockets. Tape the bottle rockets to the skateboard and place on a treadmill (preferably as level as possible to replicate the conveyor & airplane) Turn on the treadmill, we agree just with your fingertip you can hold the skateboard stationary....now light the two bottle rockets....will the skateboard not launch forward?

It will very certainly fly forward and most likely scare the crap out of any animals in the area :goodjob:

[BABY J]

really? put your car on a dyno(I know planes aren't powered by their wheels. thanks for the info). for the sake of argument, lets say the speedometer says 100mph. is the car actually going 100mph? NO. it's sitting there with the wheels spinning. now, stick your hand out the window. is there wind shooting over it like if you were on the highway? NO. so what makes you think there will be wind going over the wings of a plane?

Hmmm... I'll play with you. Why do they strap cars down on the dyno? Please tell me.

[joecoolfreak]

Old ass debate. I would still say that no the plane wont take off, a plane can takeoff standing still if it has a strong enough headwind but if it is just rolling on a conveyor belt then it's relative groundspeed (assuming no airspeed) is zero and it cannot create any lift.

If it's ground speed was zero...then the treadmill would have to match a speed of zero......wind is irrellavent..speed of the treadmill is irrellavent...prop or jet is irrellevent guys...don't let the whole treadmill throw you off...the only thing it is doing is spinning the tires...the tires are irrellevant to the plane moving or flying.

[speedminded]

Old ass debate. I would still say that no the plane wont take off, a plane can takeoff standing still if it has a strong enough headwind but if it is just rolling on a conveyor belt then it's relative groundspeed (assuming no airspeed) is zero and it cannot create any lift.Back of the moron line. Quit thinking so much. Determine whether something is capable of moving forward on a conveyor or treadmill before attempting to worry about how a plane flies.

[Xan]

Null. We are talking JET aircraft. You are diluting the thread w/ the prop talk.

If we are talking jets then no, it will never leave the ground on a speed matching conveyor belt.

[joecoolfreak]

Ok...I have one taker for my wager...any others?...if you are so sure that the plane can't take off from the treadmill stand up and prove it.

[speedminded]

If we are talking jets then no, it will never leave the ground on a speed matching conveyor belt.LISTEN, jet or prop, the formula to this debate DOES NOT change. IT has no effect on the outcome...none what's so ever.

[speedminded]

The propeller is what's making the wheels on an airplane spin. It does this because it's forcing air backwards. Not that hard to grasp.

Edit: Better yet. Put a prop plane on a dyno. Set the windspeed to 100 MPH. Stick your head out the window. Is there wind coming back at you?lol well first of all...the dyno won't spin a fucking 1/4 inch because no power is being applied to the wheels....never ever ever on a plane. quit talking.

[{X}Echo419]

Old ass debate. I would still say that no the plane wont take off, a plane can takeoff standing still if it has a strong enough headwind but if it is just rolling on a conveyor belt then it's relative groundspeed (assuming no airspeed) is zero and it cannot create any lift.
BINGO! now lets see if any of these dim wits can grasp this concept.

[man]

here we go, I'll use an awesome example that Ruiner used during the last debate.

Take a hotwheels car and place it on a treadmill. Your hand is going to be the source of thrust. Are you all trying to tell me that you can't push a hotwheels car forward on a treadmill?

[speedminded]

BINGO! now lets see if any of these dim wits can grasp this concept.answer it...


Ok got ANOTHER one for you.

Take a skateboard and a pair of the large bottle rockets. Tape the bottle rockets to the skateboard and place on a treadmill (preferably as level as possible to replicate the conveyor & airplane) Turn on the treadmill, we agree just with your fingertip you can hold the skateboard stationary....now light the two bottle rockets....will the skateboard not launch forward?

[man]

BINGO! now lets see if any of these dim wits can grasp this concept.

God! I hate those dim-witted GA Tech Aerospace Engineers!

[Xan]

LISTEN, jet or prop, the formula to this debate DOES NOT change. IT has no effect on the outcome...none what's so ever.

Answer please. If a jet engine provides thrust at the rear of the jet(When say provides thrust I mean it's pushing air out from the rear of the jet) and the conveyor is keeping the jet from physically "moving, rolling, lurching, anything" forward, WHERE THE HELL IS THE WIND SPEED COMING FROM!?

[speedminded]

God! I hate those dim-witted GA Tech Aerospace Engineers!but can you explain the miracle of birth to a rock? eh? com'n? what's that? Not smart enough for that are you? so i guess we are all so damn dim-witted that we can't even explain it to him.

[speedminded]

Answer please. If a jet engine provides thrust at the rear of the jet(When say provides thrust I mean it's pushing air out from the rear of the jet) and the conveyor is keeping the jet from physically "moving, rolling, lurching, anything" forward, WHERE THE HELL IS THE WIND SPEED COMING FROM!?Explain how is the conveyor is preventing it from moving? answer this first...



Ok got ANOTHER one for you.

Take a skateboard and a pair of the large bottle rockets. Tape the bottle rockets to the skateboard and place on a treadmill (preferably as level as possible to replicate the conveyor & airplane) Turn on the treadmill, we agree just with your fingertip you can hold the skateboard stationary....now light the two bottle rockets....will the skateboard not launch forward?

[joecoolfreak]

Answer please. If a jet engine provides thrust at the rear of the jet(When say provides thrust I mean it's pushing air out from the rear of the jet) and the conveyor is keeping the jet from physically "moving, rolling, lurching, anything" forward, WHERE THE HELL IS THE WIND SPEED COMING FROM!?

It's not keeping it from moving and it never will, hence the fact that it doesn't matter. The speed is coming from the fact that the plane or jet IS freakin moving. That is what makes this whole arguement so difficult to grasp for some people. The belt cannot effect the plane one way or another because it only effects the wheels and they have nothing to do with the plane because it doesn't use wheels for power.

[BABY J]

He hasn't answered any of the questions I asked. I do not expect him to. And the 1 I DID ask he answered "no, and then if yes". WTF??? Is it no or yes. LOL.

[man]

but can you explain the miracle of birth to a rock? eh? com'n? what's that? Not smart enough for that are you? so i guess we are all so damn dim-witted that we can't even explain it to him.

You got me there.

[{X}Echo419]

The propeller is what's making the wheels on an airplane spin. It does this because it's forcing air backwards. Not that hard to grasp.

Edit: Better yet. Put a prop plane on a dyno. Set the windspeed to 100 MPH. Stick your head out the window. Is there wind coming back at you?

no

[speedminded]

Answer it...

Ok got ANOTHER one for you.

Take a skateboard and a pair of the large bottle rockets. Tape the bottle rockets to the skateboard and place on a treadmill (preferably as level as possible to replicate the conveyor & airplane) Turn on the treadmill, we agree just with your fingertip you can hold the skateboard stationary....now light the two bottle rockets....will the skateboard not launch forward?

[{X}Echo419]

Answer it...

if it's going faster than the treadmill yes. if it is not going FASTER than the treadmill, no.

now, lets see if you can understand that.

[speedminded]

noWhat the hell do you think a plane would do on a dyno?

[Xan]

We are using a progressive conveyor right? Progressive as in when thrust increases the conveyor speed increases?

[joecoolfreak]

if it's going faster than the treadmill yes. if it is not going FASTER than the treadmill, no.

now, lets see if you can understand that.

What are you using to judge the speed of the plane?

[speedminded]

We are using a progressive conveyor right? Progressive as in when thrust increases the conveyor speed increases?sure, if you want....but the amount of pressure/force/thrust etc. required to hold the plane stationary is not effected by the speed of the conveyor....again, whether it's going 1mph or 1,000mph.

[joecoolfreak]

We are using a progressive conveyor right? Progressive as in when thrust increases the conveyor speed increases?
Progressive as in when speed of plane increases, conveyor speed increases...but it still doesn't matter

[BABY J]

We are using a progressive conveyor right? Progressive as in when thrust increases the conveyor speed increases?


THANK YOU HOLY SHIT!!!! THE ENGINES ARE NOT CONNECTED TO THE WHEELS/TREADMILL IN ANY WAY!!!!! THERE IS NO WAY FOR TO "METER" THE TWO!!! THE CONVEYOR CAN ONLY MATCH THE SPEED OF THE WHEELS, WHICH HAS NO EFFECT ON PUSHING THE AIRPLANE FORWARD!!!!

CAN I GET A WITNESS???

[{X}Echo419]

What the hell do you think a plane would do on a dyno?
same thing it would do on a GOD DAMN CONVEYOR(see below). NOT FLY THAT' FOR FUCKING SURE!


We are using a progressive conveyor right? Progressive as in when thrust increases the conveyor speed increases?

________
looks like joecoolfreak is the only putting up.

[BABY J]

If the plane stayed stationary relative to the ground, indeed it would not take off. But it won't stay stationary relative to the ground (assuming the wheels spin without friction). The plane will move relative to the treadmill, no matter how fast the treadmill moves. So it will merely fall off the front of the treadmill. Or, if the treadmill is very long, it will speed up relative to both the ground and the air, and then take off.

Think of it with respect to the wheelchair on the treadmill. You're sitting in a wheelchair on a treadmill. The wheelchair wheels turn w/o friction. I stand behind you and hold you in place. The treadmill starts to move. I just hold you there, and the wheels spin. The treadmill moves faster. I don't have to hold you with any more force, the wheels just spin faster. Work is done by the treadmill on the wheels, but there is no force whatsoever on the wheelchair from the treadmill. Its only function is to spin the wheels faster. Now say I walk alongside the treadmill and push you along. The speed you move forward is completely independent of the speed with which the treadmill turns.

This is basically the same thing that's happening to the plane, because the engines are pushing you relative to the air, not the ground!!!! GROW A BRAIN AND SEE THIS!!!

[speedminded]

same thing it would do on a GOD DAMN CONVEYOR(see below). NOT FLY THAT' FOR FUCKING SURE!lol, no really...what do you suppose will happen to a plane on a dyno? would the wheels spin?

[speedminded]

answer it!

Ok got ANOTHER one for you.

Take a skateboard and a pair of the large bottle rockets. Tape the bottle rockets to the skateboard and place on a treadmill (preferably as level as possible to replicate the conveyor & airplane) Turn on the treadmill, we agree just with your fingertip you can hold the skateboard stationary....now light the two bottle rockets....will the skateboard not launch forward?

[Ruiner]

there's NO WIND PASSING OVER THE WINGS! it won't fly. NEWTON SAYS SO :eye:

But there will be once the plane starts moving forward! The plane will move forward JUST like on a NORMAL runway and take off. That is what you need to conceptualize! :) As soon as you can picture that in your head, you have the answer. :)

[Ruiner]

really? put your car on a dyno(I know planes aren't powered by their wheels. thanks for the info). for the sake of argument, lets say the speedometer says 100mph. is the car actually going 100mph? NO. it's sitting there with the wheels spinning. now, stick your hand out the window. is there wind shooting over it like if you were on the highway? NO. so what makes you think there will be wind going over the wings of a plane?

But what will the SPEEDO on the plane say!? Zero, that's right. The plane would have no speed. If the plane has no speed, then the conveyor belt has NO speed.

[speedminded]

He neg repped me and took off...com'n i wanna play some more. Answer my two questions above!

[Ruiner]

why'dyou bring this up again brandon?

So that I can point and laugh at the 20 people that voted "no". :)

[Xan]

What I was getting at with the progressive conveyor was that the plane wouldn't take off because it was "moving" forward on the conveyor like you guys are saying. The way I've always heard this question stated is that there is NO movement in relation to the plane. It NEVER builds any speed other than windspeed.

[Xan]

And if we are using a progressive conveyor belt that will ALWAYS match the amount of thrust put out, then a jet aircraft will never take off because it couldn't build any windspeed.

[speedminded]

What I was getting at with the progressive conveyor was that the plane wouldn't take off because it was "moving" forward on the conveyor like you guys are saying. The way I've always heard this question stated is that there is NO movement in relation to the plane. It NEVER builds any speed other than windspeed.Ok, what do you suppose is keeping the airplane stationary on the conveyor?


And if we are using a progressive conveyor belt that will ALWAYS match the amount of thrust put out, then a jet aircraft will never take off because it couldn't build any windspeed.nm, you answered it here. You do understand that the conveyor has no effect on how much air the plane can pull and or push right?

[BABY J]

And if we are using a progressive conveyor belt that will ALWAYS match the amount of thrust put out, then a jet aircraft will never take off because it couldn't build any windspeed.

PLEASE tell me how a (the) conveyor can match anything other than WHEELSPIN/WHEELSPEED in this example. Please?

[JennB]

Yeah, negative repo me becuase I understand something you don't.

I really wish anyone who voted no would just read all of the links I posted. It clearly explains why it will take off. The Straight Dope is a very reputable website and book series, I assure you they are right. One of the others was an aviation website, I believe them as well. It's really not that hard to figure out.

Use the analogies and use your brain. The skateboard, the model plane, go grab either and test them yourself.

[speedminded]

Echo's back, answer my two questions...

[BABY J]

...Think of it with respect to the wheelchair on the treadmill. You're sitting in a wheelchair on a treadmill. The wheelchair wheels turn w/o friction. I stand behind you and hold you in place. The treadmill starts to move. I just hold you there, and the wheels spin. The treadmill moves faster. I don't have to hold you with any more force, the wheels just spin faster. Work is done by the treadmill on the wheels, but there is no force whatsoever on the wheelchair from the treadmill. Its only function is to spin the wheels faster. Now say I walk alongside the treadmill and push you along. The speed you move forward is completely independent of the speed with which the treadmill turns.

This is basically the same thing that's happening to the plane, because the engines are pushing you relative to the air, not the ground!

PLEASE tell me all of the "no it will not fly" people get this.

[BABY J]

ECHO. All I need is a DIRECT yes or no answer on if the plane will stand still or move forward on the treadmill once the engines are fired. I'm begging you to answer this.

[{X}Echo419]

But there will be once the plane starts moving forward! The plane will move forward JUST like on a NORMAL runway and take off. That is what you need to conceptualize! :) As soon as you can picture that in your head, you have the answer. :)

you need to tell that to everyone in any form of avation that so they can stop building big ass runways and (military) aricraft carriers that 1. there could be 1 runway @every airport for landing and then some(however many nessary) 20+ft (depending on the plane size) convayer belts and launch jet off of there. BRILLIANT! you should be out selling this right now!

[{X}Echo419]

ECHO. All I need is a DIRECT yes or no answer on if the plane will stand still or move forward on the treadmill once the engines are fired. I'm begging you to answer this.
is this clear enough for you fly boy? or should I write it on a stick and beat you with it?

And if we are using a progressive conveyor belt that will ALWAYS match the amount of thrust put out, then a jet aircraft will never take off because it couldn't build any windspeed.



Ok, what do you suppose is keeping the airplane stationary on the conveyor?

nm, you answered it here. You do understand that the conveyor has no effect on how much air the plane can pull and or push right?

the conveyor dumb ass.
do you even know what a conveyor is?

[man]

you need to tell that to everyone in any form of avation that so they can stop building big ass runways and (military) aricraft carriers that 1. there could be 1 runway @every airport for landing and then some(however many nessary) 20+ft (depending on the plane size) convayer belts and launch jet off of there. BRILLIANT! you should be out selling this right now!

http://gwally.com/news/photos/you_win_the_prize1.jpg

almost buddy