Plane on a treadmill poll...

[BABY J]

ECHO:

ECHO if you are done answering my questions then I will go ahead and unsubscribe. All I want is answers... I answered all of your questions. And as far as dumbasses go... well...

FURTHERMORE, there are mulitple runways due to

1) traffic
2) direction of the wind (to provide take-off and landings in headwinds when possible)
3) 1 crash does not incapacitate a major hub for days while they clean up

** So in my wheelchair example. I will not be able to push you forward on the treadmill correct?

[speedminded]

Echo logic...

http://www.sacramentoareamustang.org/tirechains/P1010014big.JPG

[BABY J]

THAT WAS FUCKIN HILARIOUS!!!! LOL. I am not laughing at the "it will not fly people." I'm trying to help them understand.

You have to approach it sytematically --> before we even worry about it FLYING we have to determine if the JET powered aircraft on a treadmill is rendered accelerationless due to the fact that it is indeed on a treadmill. The answer is NO. Therefore, it will accellerate. Therefore it will ALSO generate airflow over the wing and achieve flight. The people that say NO are hung up on how it will MOVE on the treadmill, not the fact that if it DOES move that it will achieve flight. I will assume that they are smart enuff to know that it will achieve flight if it can move forward... WHICH IT WILL DO!

I think my wheelchair example pretty much makes it dummy-proof. NE1 who does not get it after that, I dunno what to tell you. Unless ECHO stops attacking people personally and puts some real food on my plate to eat, I am gonna unsubscribe. I'll give him time though...

[speedminded]

is this clear enough for you fly boy? or should I write it on a stick and beat you with it?

the conveyor dumb ass.
do you even know what a conveyor is?Not being bright enough for the air force is no reason to act like that towards baby j....and if you wanna argue with that, i was ONE answer from getting a perfect score on the ASVAB. What was yours?

Of course I know what a conveyor is and i am willing to bet i've spent more time around and working on them than you have. 15 years on a farm teach you a few things :2cents:

[BABY J]

PS:

Maybe the Mustang is driving backwards and hates oversteer when going downhill.:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:

[man]

** So in my wheelchair example. I will not be able to push you forward on the treadmill correct?

Psh... dumbass you think wheelchairs can fly? I'm switching over to echo's side.

/sarcasm

[speedminded]

Psh... dumbass you think wheelchairs can fly? I'm switching over to echo's side.

/sarcasmlolol.

[BABY J]

Psh... dumbass you think wheelchairs can fly? I'm switching over to echo's side.

/sarcasm

Fuck it, I am switching over too!!! LOL

[RandomGuy]

i think the plane WILL lift off... but i think someone mentioned it being stationary and still lifting off... i dont think thats the case... i think it'd travel opposite the direction that the conveyor is going at the same speed it would if it were lifting off on asphalt.

[Ruiner]

if it's going faster than the treadmill yes. if it is not going FASTER than the treadmill, no.

now, lets see if you can understand that.

If WHAT is going faster than the treadmill? It would STILL push forward.

[Ruiner]

What I was getting at with the progressive conveyor was that the plane wouldn't take off because it was "moving" forward on the conveyor like you guys are saying. The way I've always heard this question stated is that there is NO movement in relation to the plane. It NEVER builds any speed other than windspeed.

Read the original question that I put in the first thread. It MATCHES the speed of the plane...

[Ruiner]

And if we are using a progressive conveyor belt that will ALWAYS match the amount of thrust put out, then a jet aircraft will never take off because it couldn't build any windspeed.

It doesn't match thrust...It matches the SPEED of the plane. Read the problem again! First page, first post by me...

[speedminded]

you need to tell that to everyone in any form of avation that so they can stop building big ass runways and (military) aricraft carriers that 1. there could be 1 runway @every airport for landing and then some(however many nessary) 20+ft (depending on the plane size) convayer belts and launch jet off of there. BRILLIANT! you should be out selling this right now!What are you talking about? Just consider the conveyor belt the size of an average runway. We already know what kind of distance is required for a plane to take off...the point you still can not grasp is why a plane will not remain stationary on a conveyor belt.

[Ruiner]

you need to tell that to everyone in any form of avation that so they can stop building big ass runways and (military) aricraft carriers that 1. there could be 1 runway @every airport for landing and then some(however many nessary) 20+ft (depending on the plane size) convayer belts and launch jet off of there. BRILLIANT! you should be out selling this right now!

What? No. I said that it will need the length of a normal runway to take off! Where did I say that it could do it on a shorter runway? The plane would pick up speed just like any other plane...

[Ruiner]

i think the plane WILL lift off... but i think someone mentioned it being stationary and still lifting off... i dont think thats the case... i think it'd travel opposite the direction that the conveyor is going at the same speed it would if it were lifting off on asphalt.

NOBODY said that...unless you were talking about a Harrier jump jet which can do that, but it's a special type of jet.

We ALL know that the airplane would have to MOVE down a LONG conveyor belt and would eventually pick up enough speed to take off.

[JennB]

i think the plane WILL lift off... but i think someone mentioned it being stationary and still lifting off... i dont think thats the case... i think it'd travel opposite the direction that the conveyor is going at the same speed it would if it were lifting off on asphalt.

Exactly. The plane goes 100 MPH forward, the conveyor goes 100 MPH backwards and the wheels spin at 200 MPH in between. It takes the same length of runway to take off, just like normal.

[speedminded]

We ALL know that the airplane would have to MOVE down a LONG conveyor belt and would eventually pick up enough speed to take off.but echo and the other 19 can't grasp the idea that no matter the speed of the conveyor belt the plane will still move forward.

[Xan]

Ok, what do you suppose is keeping the airplane stationary on the conveyor?

nm, you answered it here. You do understand that the conveyor has no effect on how much air the plane can pull and or push right?

Yes I understand this. The point I was making is that a jet engine pushes all the air out the back of the plane. None of the air is pushed over the wings. Therefore, a jet wouldn't be able to lift off on a progressive conveyor belt.

A prop plane, since it forces wind from the front of the plane backwards over the wings, would. Even if it were stationary the windspeed generated by the propeller would lift it off the ground.

[Xan]

It doesn't match thrust...It matches the SPEED of the plane. Read the problem again! First page, first post by me...

..and the speed at which the plane travels while in lift-off is directly related to the amount of thrust created so...how is what I said any different?

[joecoolfreak]

A prop plane, since it forces wind from the front of the plane backwards over the wings, would. Even if it were stationary the windspeed generated by the propeller would lift it off the ground.

No, a prop plane would never be able to take off on just the wind pushed back by the propeller...the plane has to be moving forward to take off. A propeller does not push air backwards to work, it pulls the plane forwards through the air.

[Ruiner]

..and the speed at which the plane travels while in lift-off is directly related to the amount of thrust created so...how is what I said any different?

It's related, but they are not always equal. You can only be under 30% throttle and still have the necessary speed for takeoff. You can also be at 100% thrust and still take off as well. :) 2000lbs of thrust = what speed? See what I mean? Just like in your car, does 100% throttle from a 20mph punch up to 60mph match up? Nope. You can punch it to 90% throttle while at 30mph and only hold it for 5 seconds and then drop it off to 0% throttle, yet your speed will still be up there.

[speedminded]

Yes I understand this. The point I was making is that a jet engine pushes all the air out the back of the plane. None of the air is pushed over the wings. Therefore, a jet wouldn't be able to lift off on a progressive conveyor belt.

A prop plane, since it forces wind from the front of the plane backwards over the wings, would. Even if it were stationary the windspeed generated by the propeller would lift it off the ground.no no no....prop plane does not force air over the wings...the prop pulls and a jet pushes but neither have anything to do with the wings. The wings provide lift as a plane reaches a certain forward speed.

BUT as i said before, quit thinking about how a plane flies and figure out why a plane can move forward on a conveyor just like any other runway, no matter what the speed of the conveyor is.

[man]

No, a prop plane would never be able to take off on just the wind pushed back by the propeller...the plane has to be moving forward to take off. A propeller does not push air backwards to work, it pulls the plane forwards through the air.

I saw you on 400 on the way back from the V, just before you got off at your exit.

[BABY J]

Yes I understand this. The point I was making is that a jet engine pushes all the air out the back of the plane. None of the air is pushed over the wings. Therefore, a jet wouldn't be able to lift off on a progressive conveyor belt.



A prop plane, since it forces wind from the front of the plane backwards over the wings, would. Even if it were stationary the windspeed generated by the propeller would lift it off the ground.



So what you are saying is --> apply brakes in a prop, increase power to full, then pop the brakes and take off in 5 feet (random #)? Not gonna happen buddy!

[{X}Echo419]

PLEASE tell me all of the "no it will not fly" people get this.



ECHO. All I need is a DIRECT yes or no answer on if the plane will stand still or move forward on the treadmill once the engines are fired. I'm begging you to answer this.


And if we are using a progressive conveyor belt that will ALWAYS match the amount of thrust put out, then a jet aircraft will never take off because it couldn't build any windspeed.

THIS IS THE LAST TIME I TRY TO GET THROUGH YOUR(AND OTHERS) THICK SKULL)
you DO know what thrust is? don't you fly boy?

If thrust is great enough to over come the loss(because if the plane is shut off and put on the treadmill it will go backwords. Do you get that?) of land speed from the treadmill it can take off.
Anything less than that will result in a loud plane on the ground.
Now, initally(sp) the question was posed(I assume. b/c that's how it was posed b4) with the plane land speed(that is how fast the plane would be going on NORMAL ground. do you understand?) matching that of the treadmill. which(don't drop your sippy cup!) would NOT result in a flying plane.

[{X}Echo419]

So what you are saying is --> apply brakes in a prop, increase power to full, then pop the brakes and take off in 5 feet (random #)? Not gonna happen buddy!

you're on the right track. :goodjob:

[BABY J]

THE MATCHING IS THE SPEED OF THE PLANE (just like my wheelchair example when I hold the chair from moving AT ALL), NOT THE FUCKING THRUST!!!!! I DROPPED MY SIPPY CUP B/C YOU NEED IT MORE THAN I DO TARD! READ THE DAMN 1ST POST LADY!!!

[Ruiner]

If thrust is great enough to over come the loss(because if the plane is shut off and put on the treadmill it will go backwords. Do you get that?) of land speed from the treadmill it can take off.
.

Would you agree that initially, the plane would not go backwards at the speed of the conveyor belt, though? Would you agree that it would go back slowly at first, and then pick up speed? All because of the free rolling wheels, yes?

[BABY J]

you're on the right track. :goodjob:

BWA BWA BWA BWA HA HA HA!!!!! YOU'RE A DUMBASS!!!

[man]

Echo are you in school?

[speedminded]

THIS IS THE LAST TIME I TRY TO GET THROUGH YOUR(AND OTHERS) THICK SKULL)
you DO know what thrust is? don't you fly boy?

If thrust is great enough to over come the loss(because if the plane is shut off and put on the treadmill it will go backwords. Do you get that?) of land speed from the treadmill it can take off.
Anything less than that will result in a loud plane on the ground.
Now, initally(sp) the question was posed(I assume. b/c that's how it was posed b4) with the plane land speed(that is how fast the plane would be going on NORMAL ground. do you understand?) matching that of the treadmill. which(don't drop your sippy cup!) would NOT result in a flying plane.So you are still saying that a plane cannot move forward on a conveyor belt? Whether it's 1mph or 1,000mph you still say it's not possible?

[{X}Echo419]

THE MATCHING IS THE SPEED OF THE PLANE (just like my wheelchair example when I hold the chair from moving AT ALL), NOT THE FUCKING THRUST!!!!! I DROPPED MY SIPPY CUP B/C YOU NEED IT MORE THAN I DO TARD! READ THE DAMN 1ST POST LADY!!!

ok, you're helpless.

go take some more gehy pics of yourself and post them in the health and wellness section.
I'm done with you.

[man]

maybe I should draw up a diagram

[joecoolfreak]

I saw you on 400 on the way back from the V, just before you got off at your exit.

I saw you as well, and if I am not mistaken, I left the V at the same time you did. I was right behind you getting on 85N and then I saw you again just before I got off of 400...Red fc right?

[TheSnail]

WOW, 19 pages! And thats not a good sign.

[BABY J]

you're on the right track. :goodjob:

So a prop driven airplane in a low to no wind can take off vertically ONLY BY PROP WASH alone. THAT is what you essentially just said!! In addition, they can HOVER AT WILL TOO!

ATTENTION EARTH!!!!:

ALL PROP PLANES ARE NOW CAPABLE OF VERTICAL TAKE OFF!!! PLEASE RESERVE ALL RUNWAYS FOR JET PLANES. HELICOPTERS, WE NO LONGER NEED YOU B/C THE REASON YOU WERE INVENTED WAS POINTLESS B/C WE DIDN'T KNOW THAT TURBO PROPS DO NOT NEED RUNWAYS!!!


BWA BWA BWA BWA HA HA!!! STOP IT MAN, JUST STOP IT!!!:lmfao: :lmfao:

[man]

I saw you as well, and if I am not mistaken, I left the V at the same time you did. I was right behind you getting on 85N and then I saw you again just before I got off of 400...Red fc right?

Yeah, didn't really notice you until then sorry. Btw I like what you have done with your car.

[{X}Echo419]

Would you agree that initially, the plane would not go backwards at the speed of the conveyor belt, though? Would you agree that it would go back slowly at first, and then pick up speed? All because of the free rolling wheels, yes?
it all depends on how fast the plane is going and how fast the conveyor is going...Variables!
in short yes. without knowing what the variable are I would have to say, "yes. it's possible. B/c without knowing Anything's possible."


So you are still saying that a plane cannot move forward on a conveyor belt? Whether it's 1mph or 1,000mph you still say it's not possible?
see above.

[joecoolfreak]

Yeah, didn't really notice you until then sorry. Btw I like what you have done with your car.

It's ok...I was having electrical issues and in no mood to play. Thanks on the compliment though...not many people appreciate a 15 year old 'retta.

[Ruiner]

{X}Echo419, try this...

Take a piece of paper and lay it on the table...
Take a matchbox car and roll it across the paper with your hand...
Now, while the car is moving across the paper, pull the paper back at whatever pace you are pulling it forward...

Does it make the car stop or spin backwards? Is it harder to push forward? Nope.

[Xan]

So what you are saying is --> apply brakes in a prop, increase power to full, then pop the brakes and take off in 5 feet (random #)? Not gonna happen buddy!

Have you tried it yet? I'm not sure of the maximum thrust a propeller is capable of delivering, but i bet it's enough to get the plane off the ground. Maybe not fly away, but get it off the ground none the less. Maybe something larger like a c-130 with multiple propellers per wing? I wonder if that would work? This would make a great Mythbusters episode.

Oh well. It's 3 o'clock. Have a good weekend everyone. Remember, noone's stupid. We're all just hard headed.:)

[BABY J]

Have you tried it yet? I'm not sure of the maximum thrust a propeller is capable of delivering, but i bet it's enough to get the plane off the ground. Maybe not fly away, but get it off the ground none the less. Maybe something larger like a c-130 with multiple propellers per wing? I wonder if that would work? This would make a great Mythbusters episode.

Oh well. It's 3 o'clock. Have a good weekend everyone. Remember, noone's stupid. We're all just hard headed.:)

JATO pack. Google it. Have a great weekend. (Jet Assisted TakeOff)

[JennB]

Remember, noone's stupid.


I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that one :lmfao:

[{X}Echo419]

So a prop driven airplane in a low to no wind can take off vertically ONLY BY PROP WASH alone. THAT is what you essentially just said!! In addition, they can HOVER AT WILL TOO!

ATTENTION EARTH!!!!:

ALL PROP PLANES ARE NOW CAPABLE OF VERTICAL TAKE OFF!!! PLEASE RESERVE ALL RUNWAYS FOR JET PLANES. HELICOPTERS, WE NO LONGER NEED YOU B/C THE REASON YOU WERE INVENTED WAS POINTLESS B/C WE DIDN'T KNOW THAT TURBO PROPS DO NOT NEED RUNWAYS!!!


BWA BWA BWA BWA HA HA!!! STOP IT MAN, JUST STOP IT!!!:lmfao: :lmfao:

I didn't say that you dumbass! in fact it was more of the exact oppsite....
wait a minute. Welcome to the ignore list pal. DIAF! :lmfao:

[speedminded]

Adam Savage and Jamie Hyneman from Mythbusters are being contacted. They have the resources and the budget to show why it is possible for a plane to take off from a conveyor belt moving in the opposite direction.

[BABY J]

ECHO --> You said that a prop can take off under prop wash alone just by the wind being pushed over the wings. SAME THING!!!

[BABY J]

I won't ignore you ECHO. Please do some research tonight bro. Do not feel bad, b/c this is not something that every person on Earth needs to know anyway. But man, you're outclassed here. Take a break, jack ya dick, have a beer... then re-attack.

[speedminded]

it all depends on how fast the plane is going and how fast the conveyor is going...Variables!
in short yes. without knowing what the variable are I would have to say, "yes. it's possible. B/c without knowing Anything's possible."


see above.How many times do i have to tell you it doesn't matter the speed of the conveyor belt, the force it takes to hold the plane stationary on it is the same....which is a very very minute (MY-NUTE) force compared to the amount of thrust put out by a planes engine. The conveyor can be going 1mph or 1,000mph and the plane will still move forward and take off like any runway.

[BABY J]

I didn't say that you dumbass! in fact it was more of the exact oppsite....
wait a minute. Welcome to the ignore list pal. DIAF! :lmfao:

READ POST 268, 272, 274, 276. You agreed w/ XAN on propwash being able to make a prop plane take off in 5 feet (a random # I threw out there)

[Ruiner]

{X}Echo419, try this...

Take a piece of paper and lay it on the table...
Take a matchbox car and roll it across the paper with your hand...
Now, while the car is moving across the paper, pull the paper back at whatever pace you are pushing the car forward...

Does it make the car stop or spin backwards? Is it harder to push forward? Nope.

Just pretend that the matchbox car with the free rolling wheels is a plane and your hand is thrust from the engine. The paper is the conveyor belt.

Heck, if you can get ahold of a smaller plane with wheels, that will work even better.

Let me know the out come. Better yet, put a matchbox car/small model plane with free rolling wheels on a conveyor belt and test it yourself. :)

[{X}Echo419]

How many times do i have to tell you it doesn't matter the speed of the conveyor belt, the force it takes to hold the plane stationary on it is the same....which is a very very minute (MY-NUTE) force compared to the amount of thrust put out by a planes engine. The conveyor can be going 1mph or 1,000mph and the plane will still move forward and take off like any runway.

ok, you are wrong. goodbye.

[joecoolfreak]

ok, you are wrong. goodbye.
Why do you think he is wrong...he's not

[BABY J]

How many times do i have to tell you it doesn't matter the speed of the conveyor belt, the force it takes to hold the plane stationary on it is the same....which is a very very minute (MY-NUTE) force compared to the amount of thrust put out by a planes engine. The conveyor can be going 1mph or 1,000mph and the plane will still move forward and take off like any runway.

If he answers my wheelchair analogy of "will I be able to push the wheelchair forward w/ my arm while the mill is at a bazillion RPM" then he will understand that. THEN all he needs to understand that the force I used to push the chair forward at a BAZILLION RPMS is roughly gonna be equal to the force I need to push the chair forward at 10 RPMS. My arm = jet engine. HOUSTON WE HAVE LIFTOFF!

[Ruiner]

{X}Echo419, read what I just put up there in terms the piece of paper and a matchbox car/smaller, model airplane. :)

[{X}Echo419]

Just pretend that the matchbox car with the free rolling wheels is a plane and your hand is thrust from the engine. The paper is the conveyor belt.

Heck, if you can get ahold of a smaller plane with wheels, that will work even better.

Let me know the out come. Better yet, put a matchbox car/small model plane with free rolling wheels on a conveyor belt and test it yourself. :)

me and joecoolfreak are going to put a small plane on a treadmill this weekend.

and I thought the wheels didn't matter and all that?

ya, know what nvm. I GOTTA get some work done here and TRY to enjoy my weekend.

[{X}Echo419]

Why do you think he is wrong...he's not

I'll call you later. is your name joe? incase someone else picks up.

[joecoolfreak]

Yes...name is Joe...and I am the only one home today.

[speedminded]

me and joecoolfreak are going to put a small plane on a treadmill this weekend.

and I thought the wheels didn't matter and all that?

ya, know what nvm. I GOTTA get some work done here and TRY to enjoy my weekend.Planes have wheels fool. That's exactly what keeps the friction of moving on the runway from the plane itself.

[Ruiner]

me and joecoolfreak are going to put a small plane on a treadmill this weekend.

and I thought the wheels didn't matter and all that?

ya, know what nvm. I GOTTA get some work done here and TRY to enjoy my weekend.

The wheels are the MOST important. The most important aspect is that they are FREE ROLLING. Try doing what I told you, please. It will all make sense. :)

[BABY J]

Model planes have HIGH torque engines, and HUGE wing area designed to get them airborne in sooper short disances. Thrust vs weight ratio of a model plane is WAY higher than that thrust/weight ratio of a 747. That experiment will prove OUR (people who say it'll fly) point, only BETTER THAN A REAL AIRPLANE WOULD! NOT to mention, how are you going to measure the speed between the plane and the treadmill accurately?

Easier to do this w/ some1 on a skateboard, w/ the skateboard on a treadmill. Start up the mill, put your hand on their back and hold them stationary. Speed up the treadmill to max power, continue to hold them. Then walk forward (simulated thrust) w/ your hand on their back (thrust). They WILL move forward. So will a plane, which will generate airflow, which will provide lift.

Suit yourself Kid.

[man]

My arm = jet engine. HOUSTON WE HAVE LIFTOFF!
J is amazing

[BABY J]

YES... MY ARM IS A JET ENGINE. BUT IT'S THE RIGHT ONE NOT THE LEFT, BC I AM SINGLE... LOL. MY LEFT ARM IS JUST A PROP.

[man]

YES... MY ARM IS A JET ENGINE. BUT IT'S THE RIGHT ONE NOT THE LEFT, BC I AM SINGLE... LOL. MY LEFT ARM IS JUST A PROP.

Fuck, I'm not doin another one... asshole.

[BABY J]

LOL

[JennB]

I'm not-so-anxiously awaiting the results of this test.

From one of the links I posted: (it's a aviation website, the Lounge they refer to is the pilots lounge)

"It was an interesting argument, but as things progressed, more rational heads prevailed, pointing out that the airplanes do not apply their thrust via their wheels, so the conveyor belt is irrelevant to whether the airplane will takeoff. One guy even got one of those rubber band powered wood and plastic airplane that sell for about a buck, put it on the treadmill someone foolishly donated to the Lounge years ago, thinking that pilots might actually exercise. He wound up the rubber band, set the treadmill to be level, and at its highest speed. Then he simultaneously set the airplane on the treadmill and let the prop start to turn. It took off without moving the slightest bit backwards."

[joecoolfreak]

I'm not-so-anxiously awaiting the results of this test.

From one of the links I posted: (it's a aviation website, the Lounge they refer to is the pilots lounge)

"It was an interesting argument, but as things progressed, more rational heads prevailed, pointing out that the airplanes do not apply their thrust via their wheels, so the conveyor belt is irrelevant to whether the airplane will takeoff. One guy even got one of those rubber band powered wood and plastic airplane that sell for about a buck, put it on the treadmill someone foolishly donated to the Lounge years ago, thinking that pilots might actually exercise. He wound up the rubber band, set the treadmill to be level, and at its highest speed. Then he simultaneously set the airplane on the treadmill and let the prop start to turn. It took off without moving the slightest bit backwards."

I read that too....I already knew the theory behind it...but that is what prompted me to actually prove it.

[JennB]

Well some people just have to see things to believe them I guess. I know you're right but some people will never listen.

Have fun.

[chuck]

So very true, but unfortunately, people can't grasp this concept. :)

i can't grasp the concept of a stationary wing having any lift...no high or low pressure areas

[joecoolfreak]

i can't grasp the concept of a stationary wing having any lift...no high or low pressure areas

It's not stationary

[The Ninja]

I read that too....I already knew the theory behind it...but that is what prompted me to actually prove it.

how is that person sure that the force exerted by the treadmill (running backwards) and the force emitted through the wheels by the rubber band were equal? i coulda sworn that the original question said that fi the forces were equal

[umairejaz]

IF YOU SLID A 100MPH TREADMILL UNDER A STATIONARY PLANE, WILL IT SLING BACKWARDS??????

NO! IT WILL SLOWLY BEGIN TO MOVE BACK BUT RELATIVLY STAY IN THE SAME AREA.









































NOW ADD JET POWER TO THE PLANE AND WATCH IT BEGINE TO RACE FORWARD EVEN WHEN THE TREADMILL IS ON.......

you stupid mother fucker lol jk

[joecoolfreak]

The entire point is that it doesn't matter if they are equal or not. It doesn't matter whether or not the belt is moving the same speed as the plane. It could be moving faster or slower and it won't make a difference, because the only thing that the belt does is move the wheels and the wheels spin independant of the speed of the plane.

[umairejaz]

:goodjob:

[The Ninja]

oh ok...i understand now...i can grasp it easier with a jet engine example but for some reason the propeller engine seems to be like hitting two bricks to gether...i'm not getting anywhere.

[chuck]

It's not stationary

from how i see it, the wheels are the only thing moving on the plane...the wheels are going the same speed as the treadmill so the plane is continuing to occupy the same space (as stated in the question). if the plane isn't moving foward or backward because of the treadmill then it seems pretty stationary to me...i just don't understand where the lift comes from. the engines provide the thrust but it seems to me that only when the plane is actually traveling from say point a to point b that the air would move across the wing, without the air moving across the wing (because its stationary) i don't see where the lift comes from....make anymore sense or is it still not stationary??

i'm not trying to be a smartass but can someone please explain where the lift comes from?? i really want to grasp the concept, it's fustrating me, haha

and do those rubberband planes really take off from the ground??? i've always wound them up and thrown them off a deck or something...

[joecoolfreak]

Ok...I will try this again. Plane is standing still on a runway which works like a treadmill. Plane starts engine and begins to move forward. Thrust is provided by propellers or jets, doesn't matter. Forward motion has begun. Treadmill now begins to turn because plane has speed (otherwise known as motion). Plane continues to speed up due to thrust of engines. Treadmill continues to speed up as well. The only thing that the treadmill touches on the aircraft is the wheels. As defined by the original question, the wheels are free spinning, which means that they are not part of the drivetrain of the aircraft and provide no thrust, and they have no resistance which means that they can spin as fast at they want. By the time that the plane is traveling 100mph, the treadmill is going the opposite direction at the same speed, therefore turning the wheels at the speed of 200 miles per hour. Once the plane reaches it's lift speed, it will take of just like any other plane because of the lift of the air moving past the wings. Keep in mind, this treadmill is just as long as a regular runway and the plane moves from one end to the other and there is air so the plane will take off just like a plane would on a regular runway.

[chuck]

Ok...I will try this again. Plane is standing still on a runway which works like a treadmill. Plane starts engine and begins to move forward. Thrust is provided by propellers or jets, doesn't matter. Forward motion has begun. Treadmill now begins to turn because plane has speed (otherwise known as motion). Plane continues to speed up due to thrust of engines. Treadmill continues to speed up as well. The only thing that the treadmill touches on the aircraft is the wheels. As defined by the original question, the wheels are free spinning, which means that they are not part of the drivetrain of the aircraft and provide no thrust, and they have no resistance which means that they can spin as fast at they want. By the time that the plane is traveling 100mph, the treadmill is going the opposite direction at the same speed, therefore turning the wheels at the speed of 200 miles per hour. Once the plane reaches it's lift speed, it will take of just like any other plane because of the lift of the air moving past the wings. Keep in mind, this treadmill is just as long as a regular runway and the plane moves from one end to the other and there is air so the plane will take off just like a plane would on a regular runway.

well that kinda makes sense, but the plane would have to work harder to take off...
but i am under the impression that the plane isn't traveling down the runway since the runway is going the same speed, weather it be 500 miles long or 500 feet long, i thought it was just sitting in place with the ground (treadmill) moving under it....so the air isn't moving at all

[joecoolfreak]

The plane would have to work harder...but that amount of harder would be so miniscule because the only thing that it is doing is over coming the initial rolling drag of the wheels. Take plently of the examples that have been given so far in this thread. Put a skateboard onto a treadmill at the gym and see how hard it is to hold it in place while the treadmill is moving. Increase the speed of the treadmill and it is just as easy to hold in place. A pinky finger could do it. Now slightly push the skateboard forward as the treadmill is moving and you will find that you have to push just as hard as if it weren't moving. It really doesn't make a difference and it also doesn't matter how fast the treadmill moves. The reason why is the thrust forward is coming from your hands and not the wheels. The wheels are there just so that there isn't any friction between the board and the treadmill and it doesn't matter whether it is this example or a plane...same concept.

[joecoolfreak]

If you put a plane on a treadmill and start the treadmill it will initially move backwards. If you start the engines, it will move forward, there is basically no way to keep the plane motionless in respect to the ground. That being said, we think of speed like our speedometer in our cars, but a planes measures it by airspeed, therefore to say that the treadmill is matching the speed of the plane, it must be moving releative to the ground, not the belt of the treadmill and therefore would have drag and lift etc...

[2.0civic]

It's not stationary


it would be stationary because the treadmill is moving...not the plane. the only lift would be through what little wind the propeller threw over the wings

[umairejaz]

damn did u read my post? i made it fuckin huge font for a reason

[umairejaz]

THE TIRES IN NO WAY ARE DIRECTLY RELATED TO HOW FAST THE PLAN IS TRAVELING

[joecoolfreak]

I give up...I have been trying to help ya'll get it all day long, but I guess I have failed.

[Ruiner]

i can't grasp the concept of a stationary wing having any lift...no high or low pressure areas

What you are failing to grasp is the concept that the wheels will spin faster, but that's it. The plane will still move forward. :)

Like I said earlier:

Take a hotwheels/matchbox car and push it on a piece of paper.

The car represents the plane, it's wheels represent the FREE ROLLING wheels of the plane, your arm represents the force of the engine pushing the plane, and the paper represents the treadmill.

Pull the paper backwards while pushing the car forward. Do you feel ANY pull on the car? No. Did you notice that the car's wheels spin faster? Yes. Do you need to exert MORE force to push the car? No. No matter how FAST you pull the paper. the same force is needed to push the car.

[/thread]

[BABY J]

Think of it with respect to a wheelchair on the treadmill.

You're sitting in a wheelchair on a treadmill. The wheelchair wheels are free-spinning, meaning they turn w/o friction.

I stand behind you in the chair and place my arm behind the chair and hold you in place.

You power on the treadmill, and the treadmill starts to move backwards. But I just hold you there w/ my arm extended, and only the wheels spin.

The treadmill moves faster. I don't have to hold you with any more force than I am already exerting* --> the wheels just continue to spin faster and faster. Work is done by the treadmill on the wheels, but there is no force increase whatsoever on the wheelchair to my arm since the wheels are absorbing all* of the energy. The ONLY function of the mill gaining RPMs is spinning the wheels faster.

Now say I walk alongside the treadmill and push you along forward (me pushing you = thrust from the airplanes engines). The speed you move forward is completely independent of the speed with which the treadmill turns. The speed you move forward is only relational to how hard I push you (how much thrust the engines exert). If I push slow, you roll forward slow. If I push you fast, you move forward fast --> no matter HOW fast the treadmill turns.

This is basically the same thing that's happening to the plane, because the engines are pushing you relative to the air, not the ground!!

* (actually I do have to apply a SLIGHTLY greater effort to keep you motionless b/c we currently do not have ANY wheel bearings that are 100% efficient, nor is the transfer or motion from the treadmill to the wheels 100% efficient, but you get the idea). THE PLANE WILL ACCELERATE AND FLY ONCE YOU START THE ENGINES, w/ the only difference being the tires are rotating exponentially faster.

NOW --> /THREAD

[chuck]

What you are failing to grasp is the concept that the wheels will spin faster, but that's it. The plane will still move forward. :)

Like I said earlier:

Take a hotwheels/matchbox car and push it on a piece of paper.

The car represents the plane, it's wheels represent the FREE ROLLING wheels of the plane, your arm represents the force of the engine pushing the plane, and the paper represents the treadmill.

Pull the paper backwards while pushing the car forward. Do you feel ANY pull on the car? No. Did you notice that the car's wheels spin faster? Yes. Do you need to exert MORE force to push the car? No. No matter how FAST you pull the paper. the same force is needed to push the car.

[/thread]


aight aight...i get what you guys were saying now...i was thinking the planes ground speed was constantly the same as the treadmill, like running on a treadmill, you don't actually go anywhere....but yeah, i see how the force of the thrust can move it forward with the treadmill still going the opposite way with free moving wheels

...i guess i just had a misunderstanding of the "while the conveyer moves in the opposite direction at the same speed as the plane"

but i still have questions...even though they weren't asked for...
so if the plane and the treadmill are always at the same speed then how does the plane move?? say the plane pulls foward at 5mph, the treadmill would go backward at 5mph, i'm assuming the wheels would be spinning at 10mph but the plane would be chilling there??

i get the concept that the plane can move foward but i don't get how it could on a treadmill going the same speed but backward...i think i'm getting mixed up in the plane speed, wheel speed and treadmill speed...grrr

[RandomGuy]

aight aight...i get what you guys were saying now...i was thinking the planes ground speed was constantly the same as the treadmill, like running on a treadmill, you don't actually go anywhere....but yeah, i see how the force of the thrust can move it forward with the treadmill still going the opposite way with free moving wheels

...i guess i just had a misunderstanding of the "while the conveyer moves in the opposite direction at the same speed as the plane"

but i still have questions...even though they weren't asked for...
so if the plane and the treadmill are always at the same speed then how does the plane move?? say the plane pulls foward at 5mph, the treadmill would go backward at 5mph, i'm assuming the wheels would be spinning at 10mph but the plane would be chilling there??

i get the concept that the plane can move foward but i don't get how it could on a treadmill going the same speed but backward...i think i'm getting mixed up in the plane speed, wheel speed and treadmill speed...grrr
lol
RG notes:

ok picture a beautiful field and a bunny rabbit hopping in the forest. Now in that field, picture an airplane lifting off normally.

Now picture a conveyorbelt where the runway is... and moving inverse of the speed of the wheels. The plane will still lift off normally.

The plane doesn't do burnouts before starting to lift off for traction, since the plane is not powered by the wheels man. :)

[BABY J]

lol
RG notes:

ok picture a beautiful field and a bunny rabbit hopping in the forest. Now in that field, picture an airplane lifting off normally.

Now picture a conveyorbelt where the runway is... and moving inverse of the speed of the wheels. The plane will still lift off normally.

The plane doesn't do burnouts before starting to lift off for traction, since the plane is not powered by the wheels man. :)

What color is the rabbit?? :thinking:

[RandomGuy]

What color is the rabbit?? :thinking:
purple with neon green polkadots

[TheSnail]

*Request to start banning people that dont understand it*

[chuck]

*Request to start banning people that dont understand it*

i understand what you guys are saying, i think i'm just reading too far into the question for my own good...i swear i'm no fool, its been on my mind all day, i'm sure at some point it'll hit me and i'll feel like an idiot...or may we're both right and talking/thinking about two different things (plane speed/wheel speed) the question says plane speed so i was going with that...

maybe i just need to swing out to the HS and pay the old physics teacher a visit...

[speedminded]

...i guess i just had a misunderstanding of the "while the conveyer moves in the opposite direction at the same speed as the plane"

but i still have questions...even though they weren't asked for...
so if the plane and the treadmill are always at the same speed then how does the plane move?? say the plane pulls foward at 5mph, the treadmill would go backward at 5mph, i'm assuming the wheels would be spinning at 10mph but the plane would be chilling there??

i get the concept that the plane can move foward but i don't get how it could on a treadmill going the same speed but backward...i think i'm getting mixed up in the plane speed, wheel speed and treadmill speed...grrrchuck! please, you're smarter than that. It doesn't matter if the conveyor belt is going slower, the same speed, or 100x faster than the plane. It will still take off just like any runway in the world. The wheels are free wheeling and the planes power/thrust comes from above it...two completely differant sources of energy. The only thing the speed of the conveyor belt will have an effect on is what speed the wheels on the plane are free wheeling.

As i mentioned yesterday. Imagine sitting on a skateboard on a treadmill with a rope tied in front of you...like you're being pulled on a sled behind a 4 wheeler. Now someone turns it on and you're still just sitting there stationary as you hold on the rope right (just spinning the wheels). Then the speed is increased....do you go backwards? nope, it only makes the wheels spin faster. Do you think it will be any harder to pull yourself forward or hold yourself stationary? nope, just the same as 1mph or 14mph. Now imagine if someone came up behind you and shoved you....would you and the skateboard still roll forward? That force of the person pushing you is no differant than the prop or jet of a plane.


Echo, have you slept on it and come to your senses?

[JennB]

Are you guys actually going to test this?

I'm not sure how accurate the test would be to tell you the truth, someone like Mythbusters needs to take it on. A model plane is going to be so light that it can take off from a standstill, it needs weight and a type of plane that actually needs a runway to take off. I searched on Mythbusters site and there was a 50+ page thread on this, it's now locked so maybe they are actually going to do something with it.

With a budget and a small plane, it could be done. I seriously doubt there is any way to test this truly with a large plane though. A 4000 ft long conveyor is just not going to happen.

I'm all for testing things, but I want it done right or it means nothing.

[joecoolfreak]

I agree Jenn. I was going to do it sometime today, but echo never called. I still can't understand why anyone can't understand the theory behind it all. Everyone gets hung up with the speed issue and seems to think that the plane isn't moving relative to the ground and that just isn't possible. If anyone truly steps back from the equation and looks at Ruiner's, or BabyJ's, or Speed's, or my examples from previous post's you don't even need a plane to see what is going to happen. A skateboard or a wheelchair prove the important part. I think at this point, everyone will agree that if the plane moves forward, it will take off, so all you have to do is ask yourself, will the plane move forward? At that point, you don't need a plane or a 4000 ft treadmill to understand what will happen. Just find something with free spinning wheels or as close as you can and put it on a treadmill. Turn up the speed and see how hard it is to push it forward and then conceptualize in your mind that pushing forward is the exact same concept as a plane's prop or a jet's turbine. It doesn't take much effort to push your skateboard or wheelchair and so as soon as the aircraft's engines engage, the aircraft will take off just like normal. It's really the speed thing that trips everyone up. Think for a second on being in a car on a dyno...At full throttle, the car's speed is still nothing. In order for the car, or in this case, the plane to have speed it must move forward in respect to the ground. If it doesn't and stay's stationary, then by the rules set up by the original question, the treadmill is also at a stop. That is the only time that anything is stationary.

[buffdaddy18]

im skippin like, 15 pages of this thing, I just hope people realize it won't work. you need air running over and under the wings to create lift, more specifically, more air running over the top of the wing than the bottom of the wing. now on a treadmill, the plane techinally would not be moving anywhere since it is on a treadmill, yes the wheels are moving, and yes, the jets are psuhing it to keep it on the treadmill, but you still have no air moving over and under the wings. Somebody said it earlier, if you run on a treadmill, there is no wind, same for the plane. It doesn't matter how much thrust the jets are putting out, or how fast the wheels are turning, all that matters is how much air is traveling around the wings. I'm sure there is at least one smart person who explained this already, but if not....

/thread

[buffdaddy18]

I agree Jenn. I was going to do it sometime today, but echo never called. I still can't understand why anyone can't understand the theory behind it all. Everyone gets hung up with the speed issue and seems to think that the plane isn't moving relative to the ground and that just isn't possible. If anyone truly steps back from the equation and looks at Ruiner's, or BabyJ's, or Speed's, or my examples from previous post's you don't even need a plane to see what is going to happen. A skateboard or a wheelchair prove the important part. I think at this point, everyone will agree that if the plane moves forward, it will take off, so all you have to do is ask yourself, will the plane move forward? At that point, you don't need a plane or a 4000 ft treadmill to understand what will happen. Just find something with free spinning wheels or as close as you can and put it on a treadmill. Turn up the speed and see how hard it is to push it forward and then conceptualize in your mind that pushing forward is the exact same concept as a plane's prop or a jet's turbine. It doesn't take much effort to push your skateboard or wheelchair and so as soon as the aircraft's engines engage, the aircraft will take off just like normal. It's really the speed thing that trips everyone up. Think for a second on being in a car on a dyno...At full throttle, the car's speed is still nothing. In order for the car, or in this case, the plane to have speed it must move forward in respect to the ground. If it doesn't and stay's stationary, then by the rules set up by the original question, the treadmill is also at a stop. That is the only time that anything is stationary.


you can't compare an airplane to a sakteboard, or wheelchair, or car, because of the fact they do not have wings! like I said in the previous post, the wheels of the plane can be spinning at 1000000000mph, but if there is no air moving over and under the wings, you cannot create any lift.

[joecoolfreak]

im skippin like, 15 pages of this thing, I just hope people realize it won't work.

/thread

It will work...read the thread carefully...or for that matter read the last post before your's...learn something new =-)

*sighs*

[joecoolfreak]

you can't compare an airplane to a sakteboard, or wheelchair, or car, because of the fact they do not have wings! like I said in the previous post, the wheels of the plane can be spinning at 1000000000mph, but if there is no air moving over and under the wings, you cannot create any lift.

I am using the other models as an example to prove that the object, whether or not it has wings will move forward. Once you understand that little piece, you will realize that if it is moving forward, the air moving will create the lift required.

[buffdaddy18]

chuck! please, you're smarter than that. It doesn't matter if the conveyor belt is going slower, the same speed, or 100x faster than the plane. It will still take off just like any runway in the world. The wheels are free wheeling and the planes power/thrust comes from above it...two completely differant sources of energy. The only thing the speed of the conveyor belt will have an effect on is what speed the wheels on the plane are free wheeling.

As i mentioned yesterday. Imagine sitting on a skateboard on a treadmill with a rope tied in front of you...like you're being pulled on a sled behind a 4 wheeler. Now someone turns it on and you're still just sitting there stationary as you hold on the rope right (just spinning the wheels). Then the speed is increased....do you go backwards? nope, it only makes the wheels spin faster. Do you think it will be any harder to pull yourself forward or hold yourself stationary? nope, just the same as 1mph or 14mph. Now imagine if someone came up behind you and shoved you....would you and the skateboard still roll forward? That force of the person pushing you is no differant than the prop or jet of a plane.


Echo, have you slept on it and come to your senses?

you are still missing the point that the speed of the wheels does not make a plane take off.

[joecoolfreak]

you are still missing the point that the speed of the wheels does not make a plane take off.

No, you are missing the point that the speed of the wheels is not the speed of the plane.

Edit: Planes do not judge or measure speed by their wheels.

[buffdaddy18]

I am using the other models as an example to prove that the object, whether or not it has wings will move forward. Once you understand that little piece, you will realize that if it is moving forward, the air moving will create the lift required.


ok. so imagine this, you are standing to the side of this airplane on a treadmill...... the treadmill is going backwards at 500mph, the plane is producing a thrust to make the wheels spin at 500mph....... is the plane not staying in the same place? yes. so where is the draft to produce lift coming from?

[joecoolfreak]

ok. so imagine this, you are standing to the side of this airplane on a treadmill...... the treadmill is going backwards at 500mph, the plane is producing a thrust to make the wheels spin at 500mph....... is the plane not staying in the same place? yes. so where is the draft to produce lift coming from?

A planes engine does not provide thrust to the wheels. That is why the examples prove the point. Look at the skateboard example again. Turn the treadmill on to full blast and use your hand to hold the skateboard steady. You barely have to hold on to keep it in place, now push forward. That is what the engines do in a plane and you will see that the skateboard now moves forward...hence our movement and then you have lift.

[buffdaddy18]

A planes engine does not provide thrust to the wheels. That is why the examples prove the point. Look at the skateboard example again. Turn the treadmill on to full blast and use your hand to hold the skateboard steady. You barely have to hold on to keep it in place, now push forward. That is what the engines do in a plane and you will see that the skateboard now moves forward...hence our movement and then you have lift.


ok, so then i am on this treadmill on a skateboard, now if I need to get up to 100mph (that means actually moving forward, not sitting in one place) on my skateboard, having a treadmill under me will do nothing for me, if not impede me. The theory is still flawed. If a plane needs to travel 500mph (not sure how fast it has to go, just using a random number) to take off, and if it is sitting on this threadmill, and the jets produces enough thrust to propel the plane at 500mph, but ther ground underneath the plane is moving in reverse direction at 500mph, then the plane, technically, is not moving. And if the plane is not moving, there is no air traveling over and under the wings, which is needed for lift. So since there is no air traveling over and under the wings, there is no lift.



Here, do this. take a piece of paper, tape two ends together, stick a pencil through the open end. now hold the pencil parallel to the ground, and blow over the paper. the paper rises because the air pressure over the paper was less than what was under it. now put wheels on each end of the pencil, tie the pencil to the front end of the treadmill, and turn the treadmill on. I will garuntee that the paper will only drag against the treadmill.

[buffdaddy18]

ok, now that I have been informed that this hypothetical treadmill is the length of a normal runway (missed that part in the original post), where friction is not an issue, then yes, the damn plane could take off. It's just when I saw treadmill, along with when a lot of people see treadmill, I think of a person running in the same spot, not trying to run forward. So in essence, both answers are right for this question, depending on your view of the treadmill.

[BABY J]

Suppose a plane is on a runway that acts as a conveyer belt. The conveyor belt is as long as a typical runway. The plane moves in one direction, while the conveyer moves in the opposite direction at the same speed as the plane. The wheels of the plane are free-rolling. Will the plane be able to take off?

We achieve forward motion.

Forward motion moves the airfoil (wings) through the air.

Air foil moving through the air creates high pressure under the wing, low pressure above the wing.

That pressure differential = LIFT

LIFT = flight: in SLIGHTLY farther distance than normal, due to wheel bearings not being 100% efficient and friction between tires and conveyor belt (negligible; engines will still EASILY overcome this)

-- You are now free to move about the cabin. Chicken or beef sir?

[speedminded]

ok, now that I have been informed that this hypothetical treadmill is the length of a normal runway (missed that part in the original post), where friction is not an issue, then yes, the damn plane could take off. It's just when I saw treadmill, along with when a lot of people see treadmill, I think of a person running in the same spot, not trying to run forward. So in essence, both answers are right for this question, depending on your view of the treadmill.What do you mean now that you have been informed? The question is exactly the same as it was the minute it was posted...BUT doesn't really matter the size, if it's smaller than the required length to take off then the plane will simply run off the end of it. No matter how fast the conveyor belt is going NOTHING is going to prevent the plane from moving forward....nothing at all. The plane pulls or pushes itself via air....just as your arm can pull yourself if you are sitting on the skateboard on a treadmill. The conveyor belt has absolutely no effect on the airplane because the wheels of a plane are free spinning.

[quickdodge®]

No. Planes are NOT All-Wheel Drive. They are front-wheel driven. Later, QD.

[BABY J]

No. Planes are NOT All-Wheel Drive. They are front-wheel driven. Later, QD.

But wait. Is that w/ LSD or no? :thinking:

[quickdodge®]

^^^ That was stupid. I was being serious. I have 2 airplanes. And I don't mean models or RC. I would know. Later, QD.

[BABY J]

I hope you are kidding man. You're confusing ME. NEway.


Plane will fly.

/thread

[quickdodge®]

Nope. I have a single engine Cessna and a twin engine. Both are front-wheel drive. They will not take off because of that reason. Later, QD.

[buffdaddy18]

What do you mean now that you have been informed? .


I mean that I misread the original post, but then it got pointed out to me. what else could that mean?

[BABY J]

Not so sure about that Stretch. Which model do u have? I just searched from the Skyhawk on up and have not seen a single wheel-driven single engine Cessna. Searching the twin-engines next. Not tryna flame, just want to be educated if I am missing something. W/over 2000 flight hours this will be news to me.

[speedminded]

I mean that I misread the original post, but then it got pointed out to me. what else could that mean?Now that would make more sense :goodjob:


Not so sure about that Stretch. Which model do u have? I just searched from the Skyhawk on up and have not seen a single wheel-driven single engine Cessna. Searching the twin-engines next. Not tryna flame, just want to be educated if I am missing something. W/over 2000 flight hours this will be news to me.baby j, it's saturday afternoon...grab a beer, sit back, and quit thinkin you're talkin to echo...he's fuckin with you :slap: :tongue:

[quickdodge®]

I have a 1972 Cessna 172 and a 1977 Piper Navaho. Later, QD.

[BABY J]

LMAO!!! Stretch I'ma whoop that ass. LOL.


Assmunch.

[quickdodge®]

Huh? Later, QD.

[BABY J]

Speaking of ECHO.... echo echo echo.


HELLO??? Hello? Hello? Hello?

[BABY J]

You know what's funny... there are a LOT of people who could help ECHO try to prove why it will not fly. Why are none of the other people who voted no stepping up?

[quickdodge®]

I was serious, Baby J. The plane will fly and I was kidding about the FWD and AWD shit. But I do have those two airplanes. One is at an airpost in West Atlanta. One is at an airport in Stone Mountain. Later, QD.

[StupidBikerBoy]

ok, now that I have been informed that this hypothetical treadmill is the length of a normal runway (missed that part in the original post), where friction is not an issue, then yes, the damn plane could take off. It's just when I saw treadmill, along with when a lot of people see treadmill, I think of a person running in the same spot, not trying to run forward. So in essence, both answers are right for this question, depending on your view of the treadmill.

I too thought of it like this and thats why I voted no. It should have specified.

[speedminded]

I too thought of it like this and thats why I voted no. It should have specified.It DID specify, reread the very 1st post again. Has that post been edited? No.

And again, it doesn't matter the size...if you don't understand that the plane will not remain stationary then you still don't get it. Echo argues that the plane will not move forward enabling it to take off.

[BABY J]

^^ "ARGUES" was a great word choice. If he would DEBATE and be open to listening then he would get it. But it's BECAUSE he is "arguing" that he doesn't get it.

[speedminded]

oh so sad, 53/47% *shakes head*

[The Golden Child]

hmmm ..

[StupidBikerBoy]

It DID specify, reread the very 1st post again. Has that post been edited? No.

The plane moves in one direction, while the conveyer moves in the opposite direction at the same speed as the plane.


Maybe you should have said the plane accelerates in one direction instead of "moves". It forces the reader to assume either the plane is moving in place (no lift) or moving under its own power (lift).

I don't know, thats how I took the statement, that it was moving in place.

My bad.

[speedminded]

The plane moves in one direction, while the conveyer moves in the opposite direction at the same speed as the plane.


Maybe you should have said the plane accelerates in one direction instead of "moves". It forces the reader to assume either the plane is moving in place (no lift) or moving under its own power (lift).

I don't know, thats how I took the statement, that it was moving in place.

My bad.Would you not consider a plane taxi'ing on a runway moving? How about the plane is 'heading' in one direction while the conveyor is working the opposite? Honestly it doesn't matter how you word it, if you don't get the theory behind it then no wording will ever be correct for it...

The 32 people that say it can't take off and fly are imagining a car on a dyno or person on a treadmill. They cannot comprehend that the wheels are free spinning on a plane and the plane pulls/pushes itself. There is no assumptions to be made, at least a dozen people have said the plane WILL move forward with examples of how and why yet most still argue that the plane will have no drag or lift....even after agreeing free spinning objects can move forward on a treadmill.

[GTScoob]

I understand the concept of the plane being able to move forward but I read the problem a lot like RB26powered did.

Planes can takeoff standing still with no motors on if the headwind is strong enough, all that matters is the relative airspeed. If a plane is on a treadmill, it will be moving but not covering any displacement and it's relative groundspeed (and thus airspeed unless there is headwind or tailwind) will be 0.

So say you've got a plane that needs 80mph airspeed in order to takeoff: if you accelerate the plane to 40mph and air and have 40 mph headwind your relative airspeed is 80 and the plane can takeoff. I dont see that happening on a conveyer with no wind, sure it will roll and accelerate but it wont take off unless it's a very long conveyer inside of a nicely sized wind tunnel.

[BABY J]

I understand the concept of the plane being able to move forward but I read the problem a lot like RB26powered did.

Planes can takeoff standing still with no motors on if the headwind is strong enough, all that matters is the relative airspeed. If a plane is on a treadmill, it will be moving but not covering any displacement and it's relative groundspeed (and thus airspeed unless there is headwind or tailwind) will be 0.

So say you've got a plane that needs 80mph airspeed in order to takeoff: if you accelerate the plane to 40mph and air and have 40 mph headwind your relative airspeed is 80 and the plane can takeoff. I dont see that happening on a conveyer with no wind, sure it will roll and accelerate but it wont take off unless it's a very long conveyer inside of a nicely sized wind tunnel.

Will the plane accelerate (move) forward on the conveyor sir?

[buffdaddy18]

yes

[speedminded]

I understand the concept of the plane being able to move forward but I read the problem a lot like RB26powered did.

Planes can takeoff standing still with no motors on if the headwind is strong enough, all that matters is the relative airspeed. If a plane is on a treadmill, it will be moving but not covering any displacement and it's relative groundspeed (and thus airspeed unless there is headwind or tailwind) will be 0.

So say you've got a plane that needs 80mph airspeed in order to takeoff: if you accelerate the plane to 40mph and air and have 40 mph headwind your relative airspeed is 80 and the plane can takeoff. I dont see that happening on a conveyer with no wind, sure it will roll and accelerate but it wont take off unless it's a very long conveyer inside of a nicely sized wind tunnel.dude, you're thinking WAYYYYYYY too hard. You agree that the plane can move forward correct? So what on earth is keeping it from reaching whatever desired speed it wants to? Nothing, the conveyor has no effect on the speed of the plane, plain and simple. It can and will proceed forward, accelerate, and lift just like it's on any other runway in the world. period.

[chuck]

damn, i think i finally get it...whoa, i was sitting here picturing some dude controlling the treadmill speed and some dude with a radar detector checking the plane speed and all this shit and then boom, it hit me...i figured it would and i figured i'd feel pretty silly when it all made sense...

but thanks for the persistance, it actually paid off for once, and i really do get it...

physics was my favorite class but it was also my worst grade throughout hs...haha, go figure

[BABY J]

Actually this is a lil too tall for High School physics. But if there is NE1 who said it will NOT fly and they took COLLEGE physics... well... let's just say that they probably "memorized" the answers to the finals rather than "LEARN" about physics. LOL. At any rate, glad you got it bro.

[StupidBikerBoy]

Would you not consider a plane taxi'ing on a runway moving? How about the plane is 'heading' in one direction while the conveyor is working the opposite? Honestly it doesn't matter how you word it, if you don't get the theory behind it then no wording will ever be correct for it...

The funny thing is...

I already acknoledged that it you were correct and it would take off, all I have stated since is why I sad no at first. Yet I'm being told that I really didn't read it the way that I did.:confused:

I was just trying to explain how someone else may have read it. You have to understand that your understanding of wording can be read completely differently from another person, especially with something as undescriptive as this was. Trust me, I understand the concept.

And yes, that short, undescriptive paragraph left a LOT to be assumed by anyone that did not already know the point you were trying to make.

To put it quite simply, the plane will fly as long it has adequate lift, so yes you are correct. Its not really that hard of a concept to grasp when explained correctly.:goodjob:

[GTScoob]

Actually this is a lil too tall for High School physics. But if there is NE1 who said it will NOT fly and they took COLLEGE physics... well... let's just say that they probably "memorized" the answers to the finals rather than "LEARN" about physics. LOL. At any rate, glad you got it bro.

I've probably taken more advanced physics and calculus courses than anyone in here, sorry for thinkin hard, its what they teach us to do at Ga Tech.

[JennB]

I've taken more than a few and it is quite easy to overthink the problem. The problem doesn't make sense in real life, it's not something that can actually be done, just a theory. If we're talking jets, a multiple-thousand foot conveyor and a plane with tires and bearings that can withstand spinning at twice the speed to take off is just not very likely. It's one of those if this and if that questions that has no reason to be asked or answered but makes people argue a lot :P

[Romeyo07]

Unlike a car, the wheels do not propel the plane forward and are free spinning. They can be spinning backwards and the plane would still take off since the forward propulsion is created by the turbines.

[Ruiner]

I've probably taken more advanced physics and calculus courses than anyone in here, sorry for thinkin hard, its what they teach us to do at Ga Tech.

Actually, you won't need a wind tunnel. You just need a conveyor belt that is as long as a typical runway, nothing more. Everything else being equal, the plane will accelerate to a velocity at which point it will gain lift.

Btw, not only have I taken as advanced, if not more advanced courses than you in college, but I've also flown planes as well.

[Ruiner]

It's one of those if this and if that questions that has no reason to be asked or answered but makes people argue a lot :P

Actually, this question really separates those that can think on another level and those that cannot. It really shows who is capable of abstract thinking...

[Ruiner]

here, here is a picture for you:

Look at the wheel. It spins at the speed that the plane is moving forward + the opposite speed of the treadmill...


For those that do not believe that it will take off, answer these questions for me:
- The treadmill is only spinning the wheels of the plane, yes?
- The wheels of the plane are free rolling, yes?
- Can spinning free rolling wheels cancel out the forward velocity of the plane?

http://i4.tinypic.com/10ngozs.jpg

[Xan]

This debate is still up. That's good I suppose. I came to the realization that prop planes can't take-off on prop wash alone...

That said. If the wheels are free spinning, then 1lb of thrust should keep it moving forward on the treadmill no matter what the speed is right? As long as there is a counteracting force, no matter how small, the plane would at least stay in place if not move forward. Just a thought.

[Ruiner]

This debate is still up. That's good I suppose. I came to the realization that prop planes can't take-off on prop wash alone...

That said. If the wheels are free spinning, then 1lb of thrust should keep it moving forward on the treadmill no matter what the speed is right? As long as there is a counteracting force, no matter how small, the plane would at least stay in place if not move forward. Just a thought.

Give or take. I mean, would 1lb of thrust be enough to move the plane forward? Depends on the weight of the plane, really. It won't take much to overcome the friction in the wheels bearings, though. Basically, it will take as much thrust/power as it would going down a normal, asphalt runway. :)

[Ruiner]

Another picture for those who cannot grasp this concept:

http://i6.tinypic.com/1zh1w0m.gif

[joecoolfreak]

lmao.....that is great =-)

[speedminded]

Actually, this question really separates those that can think on another level and those that cannot. It really shows who is capable of abstract thinking...Bingo


This debate is still up. That's good I suppose. I came to the realization that prop planes can't take-off on prop wash alone...

That said. If the wheels are free spinning, then 1lb of thrust should keep it moving forward on the treadmill no matter what the speed is right? As long as there is a counteracting force, no matter how small, the plane would at least stay in place if not move forward. Just a thought.However much power it takes for a plane to move is what it takes to overcome the conveyor...you've seen the commercials where the full size pickup tows the plane right? OH, or better yet...what about those little propane carts that tow planes you see all over the tarmac at an airport....that's how much power/thrust it takes to move forward on the conveyor.

[BABY J]

^^ true, w/ the exception of what I posted in RED in my other post (wheel bearings are not 100% efficient, and the transfer of energy from the mill to the tire to the wheelbearing is not 100% efficient either). So it will require .0000000000000002 (random number chosen to show how little this matters) more thrust than normal to move the plane foward to a given speed on a treadmill than on to move it that same speen on a regular runway.

PLANE FLIES EITHER WAY. :)

[BABY J]

http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/showpost.php?p=34723307&postcount=335

[Ruiner]

http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/showpost.php?p=34723307&postcount=335

If they don't get it now, they never will...

[speedminded]

If they don't get it now, they never will...wonder what happened with the model airplane experiment?

[joecoolfreak]

Echo never called or anything else...offer still stands for those who refuse to believe

[Hulud]

it will take off
lets close this cause i need a good laugh

[{X}Echo419]

Echo never called or anything else...offer still stands for those who refuse to believe

sry, I was busy as hell this weekend and I didn't want to call you and be like, "ell, umm. I donno. let me call you back." :D
so, I'll ttyl. sry :goodjob:

[JennB]

Model airplane expieriment is not worth the trouble anyways.. it may visually help some people see the concept but not prove anything really.

[StupidBikerBoy]

This things still goin?:lmfao: :goodjob:

[speedminded]

This things still goin?:lmfao: :goodjob:yep, some people can't quite think outside the box.

[speedminded]

*bump* What's the verdict? :D

[joecoolfreak]

Oh lord..not this again *sighs*

[wantboost]

If the treadmill creates a current then no.
:goodjob:

[StupidBikerBoy]

*bump* What's the verdict? :D

LMAO

you love this shit don't you?:lmfao:

[Flip]

LOL, ITS OVER!!!!!! NO MORE!!!!

[Flip]

Smart (answered yes):

5thgcelica, 99SI, b@d @pple, BABY J, Big Baller, Brady, Bucky, cherry kool aid, collins, Crazy Asian, Deaf Pimp, deffro, fastboyamin, fcman, Flip, gabbysmommy, GsrTurbo320, Hektik, hondabuilder, Hulud, imbosile, JConner, JennB, JKNOUSE, joecoolfreak, JoeCoolinATL, Kevykev, krindus, MongolPup, Pher, RaИdomGuy, redlinenprelude, rickgiblin, rollininstyle2004, Romeyo07, Ruiner, Shazam!, simontibbett, SniperJoe, soul, speedminded, Stretch®, SwurvinIn, TheSnail, timmy135, Twinturbo6, wantboost, Xan, ~Brett~

Not so smart (answered no):

....., 94accord, ahmonrah, b18hatch, bdydrpddualy, bigdare23, billythekid310, boosted1jz, brads94accord, buffdaddy18, Calvin200sx, chuck, Cliff, CRAMERIZKING, d-ninja, DieselNuts, DJ XtRaK©, down_shift, EP3sAreFun, Four Door LS Vtec, GTScoob, Halfwit, HyPer50, IanHavok, ISAtlanta300, jt money, Leadfoot_mf, MDPsJcars, RB26powered, Retro, ScreaminZetec, TransAxle, TRINI4LIFE, Turbo- Neon, umairejaz, xaznstylegrlx, xPhantomSolx, {X}Echo419

^ did any of you no's take physics in high school? ;)

[Flip]

Ok, NOW it's over LOL.

[Brady]

Snakes on a plane on a treadmill...the sequal.

[The Golden Child]

wasnt there a thread like this awhile back ??

[97prelude]

No... backwards and forwards movement = the plane is standing still, even though the wheels are moving. Planes count on airflow to get lift.... you don't feel a breeze when you run on a treadmill.. therefore, no lift = no flying.
It doesnt matter. the wheels are independent from everything else. The wheels will just move at the normal takeoff speed of the plane+the speed of the treadmill. the plane will use up just as much of the conveyor as it would a runway. its an easy concept, if u dont understand it, then u probably dont have much goin on up top.

[Vteckidd]

yes

[ScreaminZetec]

no, your wrong. the plane doesnt have to overcome anything. the plane will take off as it would normally. the wheels would just be spinning really fast.

right but it still needs airflow over the wings to create lift. So it either needs a very strong head wind or it need forward movement. And the reason a plane takes off on an aircraft carrier is the cat as well as the carrier steamin at 20 knots into the wind which createst the airflow over the wing. So the plane does need the movement to generate life. Cause if it's stationary on the treadmill and just rolling on its wheels that doesnt creat life as there is no airflow over the wings.

[Ruiner]

right but it still needs airflow over the wings to create lift. So it either needs a very strong head wind or it need forward movement. And the reason a plane takes off on an aircraft carrier is the cat as well as the carrier steamin at 20 knots into the wind which createst the airflow over the wing. So the plane does need the movement to generate life. Cause if it's stationary on the treadmill and just rolling on its wheels that doesnt creat life as there is no airflow over the wings.

Right, but the treadmill WOULD NOT stop the forward movement of the plane. The plane would take off like it normally would on a standard runway...this runway, however, would just happen to be a treadmill. It would still take off.

[speedminded]

right but it still needs airflow over the wings to create lift. So it either needs a very strong head wind or it need forward movement. And the reason a plane takes off on an aircraft carrier is the cat as well as the carrier steamin at 20 knots into the wind which createst the airflow over the wing. So the plane does need the movement to generate life. Cause if it's stationary on the treadmill and just rolling on its wheels that doesnt creat life as there is no airflow over the wings.Again, being on a threadmill/conveyor has ZERO effect on anything except the speed of the wheels while it is accelerating then taking off. It will act NO differantly than every single other runway in the world.

A treadmill or conveyor in no way what so ever will prevent the forward movement of an aircraft. period.

[ScreaminZetec]

Right, but the treadmill WOULD NOT stop the forward movement of the plane. The plane would take off like it normally would on a standard runway...this runway, however, would just happen to be a treadmill. It would still take off.


I agree 100%, thats what I was getting at, I just didnt state it clearly.

[speedminded]

BUMPPPPPP :D

[joecoolfreak]

The plane can't take off

[speedminded]

The plane can't take offHe never showed did he?

[joecoolfreak]

Nope =-)

[joecoolfreak]

He never showed did he?

Of course not

[speedminded]

Just instigating...i already edited :tongue:

[speedminded]

Well can it take off?! :D

[joecoolfreak]

only if the auto-pilot is engaged...

[Kyle]

Well we don't even know what speed the plane is traveling at.

[joecoolfreak]

Well we don't even know what speed the plane is traveling at.

And it wouldn't matter.

[Mike Lowrey]

Answer = No.

[man]

Well we don't even know what speed the plane is traveling at.

Just say yes and move on...

[buffdaddy18]

oh my god....... I can't believe this thing got brought back up.


YES IT WILL FREAKING TAKE OFF!

/thread

[Calvin200sx]

Hopefully this will clear up all discussion.

There are four forces that govern an airplane at any given time: lift, weight, thrust and drag. Lift and weight oppose each other but can be disregarded in this question because all we are talking about it whether or not the airplane can accelerate in reference to the surrounding air. Once we get acceleration and airflow we can get the lift and weight but we don't need to talk about that now.

The throttle of the airplane is advanced and propeller/jet of the airplane produces thrust. We now have a forward vector, say 500 pounds of force, for a small cessna. In order for the plane to remain stationary an equal and opposite force needs to be introduced. Everybody follow? This opposite force would be drag.

We need to account for 500 pounds of drag. Right now the only drag is the force of friction in the wheel bearing. Has anyone here ever tried to push a cessna? It's not very hard...maybe 50 pounds of force at the most. So now we have 450 pounds of force acting in the forward direction. The conveyor belt itself does not impart any friction or drag to the airplane. It will accelerate, gain airspeed, and take off

Let's think of it a different way. Let's say the plane is landing. It approaches the runway at 100 knots and is 1 foot above the ground. As posed in the original question the conveyor belt is moving in an equal and opposite direction. So it's moving 100 knots backwards. As soon as the plane touches down, what happens? nothing...it continues its rollout as if the runway were stationary. It doesn't just automatically come to a stop. The airspeed indicator of the plane would read 100 but the wheel speed would be 200. (apologies to Youens at flightinfo.com)

People cannot separate a car/bike/walking on a treadmill with an airplane. Same thing would happen if you put the airplane on ice and hit the throttle, it will still accelerate at the exact same rate as on a runway (not a safe operation however). Try that with a car/bike/your foot and you'll get drastically different results."

[BKgen®]

All that matters is if there are any snakes on this plane.

[santacruz77]

no but a helicopter will :boobies:

[man]

no but a helicopter will :boobies:

Why are people still fighting this?

[StupidBikerBoy]

Oh god:lmfao:

[Kyle]

All that matters is if there are any snakes on this plane.

I was actually thinking about that, I was like hey this thread could use a snakes on a plane post...

[JoeyKazez]

Ok heres what i think. I don't know if anyone else already posted something similar to this but thats way too much work to find out. I think that it would, because planes do not use the power too their wheels (much) during takoff, The thrust from the plane would push it along, and make it go at a normal speed. Imagine someone on rollerskates on a treadmill, they would be able to pretty much stay in place, but if someone pushed them, no matter how fast the treadmill went it would still push the person forward, since there is not much friction on the wheels.

[HeLLo iM iZzY]

Someone close this shit.

[speedminded]

Someone close this shit.Why?! People still argue with it :tongue:

[Hulud]

Someone close this shit.
no

[Leadfoot_mf]

yes close it who gives a shitclose this shit now

[joecoolfreak]

bump =-)

[speedminded]

bump =-)LOLOLOL, so will it or will it not take off?! hahhaha!

[Leadfoot_mf]

he is your answer if the treadmill is the size of a runway yes if it is the size of the plane no.

[JennB]

Oh god... please.. no more. :P

[redrumracer]

wow this is old but id say no

[joecoolfreak]

Yes it is old...but you would be wrong

[speedminded]

Yes it is old...but you would be wronglol, i was just about to type that except say, "...but you're still wrong" :tongue:

[joecoolfreak]

lol, i was just about to type that except say, "...but you're still wrong" :tongue:

Close enough for government work...and reply to my pm dammit =-p

[speedminded]

Who keeps clicking no on the poll you tards :slap:

[fire7882]

The answer is no because if a dog slips on an icy road and hits a trashcan then the fruit basket would contain apples. :blah:

The question should state weather the speed is in relationship to the treadmill or the ground. I origonally put no because I was thinking the the speed was in relationship to the treadmill surface(as if you were running on one) but if that was the case, the treadmill wouldn't be moving if its speed was measured in relationship to itself.

[speedminded]

The answer is no because if a dog slips on an icy road and hits a trashcan then the fruit basket would contain apples. :blah:

The question should state weather the speed is in relationship to the treadmill or the ground. I origonally put no because I was thinking the the speed was in relationship to the treadmill surface(as if you were running on one) but if that was the case, the treadmill wouldn't be moving if its speed was measured in relationship to itself.huh?

[fire7882]

huh?

yes

[ShooterMcGavin]

christ why was this shit resurrected?

[redrumracer]

the answer would have to be no. just because the wheels are rolling at a fast enough speed doesnt mean that there is air going over the wing at a high enough speed to produce enough lift to get it air born.

[speedminded]

the answer would have to be no. just because the wheels are rolling at a fast enough speed doesnt mean that there is air going over the wing at a high enough speed to produce enough lift to get it air born.What prevents the plane from moving forward just as it would on any runway?

[ShooterMcGavin]

the answer would have to be no. just because the wheels are rolling at a fast enough speed doesnt mean that there is air going over the wing at a high enough speed to produce enough lift to get it air born.
great, a yr later and we've got more dumbasses :rolleyes:

[DemonEyez]

sigh once and for all final answer.. it would..

the planes wheel's are free moving.. except for when they wish to apply some brakes.. so if theres a treadmill it applies no real force on the airplane to push it in any direction forward or backward.. since the airplanes propulsion/thrust comes from its engines mounted to the wing with move the body and not through a drivetrain to move the wheels. Thus the thrust to the airplane's body will be the same.. Again thing free moving wheels..

sigh..

[man]

bump =-)

Why would you bump this thread?

[joecoolfreak]

Why would you bump this thread?

Because this discussion always amuses me =-)

[speedminded]

Because this discussion always amuses me =-)me too :tongue:

[joecoolfreak]

me too :tongue:

The funniest part is now the no's are beating the yes's. You know what that means don't ya?

[speedminded]

The funniest part is now the no's are beating the yes's. You know what that means don't ya?yeah 3 no's today, we're a bunch of dumbasses that's what it mean....and i'm gonna keep bumping it until my faith in humans as a whole is restored :tongue:

["B"]

No, because the planes wheels are only rated to a certain speed. Even if the jets on the plane propel it forward, they will spin so fast that they fall off before take off.

lol

[speedminded]

No, because the planes wheels are only rated to a certain speed. Even if the jets on the plane propel it forward, they will spin so fast that they fall off before take off.

lolexcept it comes in for a landing twice as fast as it takes off :tongue:

[AznTraitor]

until it fucking happens, I still say no....

I don't give a shit what physic professors say or any god damn super genius...until I see it with my own two eyes

[green91]

Its a trick question, the speed of the wheels is completely irrelevant to the plane being to take off.

["B"]

except it comes in for a landing twice as fast as it takes off :tongue:




So it depends on how fast the treadmill is going?


Why the fuck would you put a plane on a treadmill in the first place.

[speedminded]

Just think, some people will go the rest of their life not knowing this. Is there a Santa Claus? How are babies made? ...some people may never know.

[AznTraitor]

Just think, some people will go the rest of their life not knowing this. Is there a Santa Claus? How are babies made? ...some people may never know.


and what is the problem with that? there are plenty of people whose lives are so fragile that they need to believe in something to just keep going and there are things in this world they do not need to know about.....

for example....have you seen Jesus? has Jesus performed a miracle just for you? have you had one on one talks with Jesus? so why do some people believe and some don't?

[speedminded]

and what is the problem with that? there are plenty of people whose lives are so fragile that they need to believe in something to just keep going and there are things in this world they do not need to know about.....

for example....have you seen Jesus? has Jesus performed a miracle just for you? have you had one on one talks with Jesus? so why do some people believe and some don't?You sound like a cat owner.

[Stormhammer]

Because the conveyor belt is moving in the opposite direction, it would be the same as a plane normally landing/taking off, therefore it would take off

BUT

if the question had stated that the belt moved in the same direction as the plane, therefore counteracting any forward motion, no the plane wouldn't have taken off

its about semantics people, read the fucking problem

[speedminded]

Because the conveyor belt is moving in the opposite direction, it would be the same as a plane normally landing/taking off, therefore it would take off

BUT

if the question had stated that the belt moved in the same direction as the plane, therefore counteracting any forward motion, no the plane wouldn't have taken off

its about semantics people, read the fucking problemNeither forward nor backwards would have any effect on a plane propelling itself forward.

[Stormhammer]

Neither forward nor backwards would have any effect on a plane propelling itself forward.

yes it would - theory of relativity, groundspeed = airspeed - regardless if its freerolling

a plane couldn't take off going forward with its wheels at a stand still, or rolling backwards due to it not having achieved any groundspeed ;)

but its all theoritical

[speedminded]

yes it would - theory of relativity, groundspeed = airspeed - regardless if its freerolling

a plane couldn't take off going forward with its wheels at a stand still, or rolling backwards due to it not having achieved any groundspeed ;)

but its all theoriticalWhat's preventing the plane from propelling itself forward? Planes aren't powered by their wheels, ever seen a pontoon plane take off? The speed of the wheels or surface below it has nothing to do with a planes ability to propel itself forward and take off...

[Para]

The plane will not take off. The plane needs lift which is generated by the air moving faster on the top of the wings than it is under the wing. With the air not moving over the wings, no lift will be created therefore the plane cannot lift off the ground. This is of course all negated if you are talking about a Harrier which uses thrust and not lift.

[redrumracer]

sayin a plane could take off on a treadmill is like sayin that your actually going forward when you car is on a dyno. just because the wheels are spinning doesnt mean your going anywhere.

[Para]

Because the conveyor belt is moving in the opposite direction, it would be the same as a plane normally landing/taking off, therefore it would take off

BUT

if the question had stated that the belt moved in the same direction as the plane, therefore counteracting any forward motion, no the plane wouldn't have taken off

its about semantics people, read the fucking problem
Opposite direction will prevent it from moving. Same direction will increase it's speed.

[redrumracer]

heres another example. when your running on a treadmill indoors with no fans or anything blowing on you do you feel the wind blowing against your skin...........no. its not about the speed of the tires, its about the wing passing through the air that generates lift.

[speedminded]

The plane will not take off. The plane needs lift which is generated by the air moving faster on the top of the wings than it is under the wing. With the air not moving over the wings, no lift will be created therefore the plane cannot lift off the ground. This is of course all negated if you are talking about a Harrier which uses thrust and not lift.*sigh* You're just thinking too hard about it.

A plane is propelled by it's engine, not it's wheels, therefore it's nothing like someone running on a treadmill or car on a dyno. There is nothing preventing the plane from propelling itself forward.

[Para]

*sigh* You're just thinking too hard about it.

A plane is propelled by it's engine, not it's wheels, therefore it's nothing like someone running on a treadmill or car on a dyno. There is nothing preventing the plane from propelling itself forward.
I understand that the wheels do not propel the plane.

The OP posted stated that the conveyor belt moves in the opposite direction at the same speed as the plane.

The plane will never have forward motion if the conveyor belt continues to move at the same speed as the plane in the opposite direction.

[speedminded]

I understand that the wheels do not propel the plane.

The OP posted stated that the conveyor belt moves in the opposite direction at the same speed as the plane.

The plane will never have forward motion if the conveyor belt continues to move at the same speed as the plane in the opposite direction.Doesn't matter if the conveyor belt is still or moving forward or backwards at 5 mph or 500 mph.

Imagine a skate board on a treadmill, you can prevent it from moving backwards with just a finger right? Speed up the treadmill and it wouldn't take any more effort of that one finger to hold it in place right? No matter how fast that threadmill is moving couldn't you still push the skateboard of the front of the treadmill?

[DemonEyez]

they just dont get it man.. its very simple.. they want to over analyze..

just give up.. there will always be smart people.. and the not so smart.

[Para]

Doesn't matter if the conveyor belt is still or moving forward or backwards at 5 mph or 500 mph.

Imagine a skate board on a treadmill, you can prevent it from moving backwards with just a finger right? Speed up the treadmill and it wouldn't take any more effort of that one finger to hold it in place right? No matter how fast that threadmill is moving couldn't you still push the skateboard of the front of the treadmill?
If you pushed the skateboard forward, the treadmill would not be moving at the same speed. If you pushed it forward, the skateboard would be moving faster than the treadmill in the opposite direction. That goes against what the OP said, therefore it can't happen.

[AznTraitor]

You sound like a cat owner.


and you're the guy who takes cleaning a car way too far.....were you trying to make a point?


It's funny how you can call yourself "smart" because you say a plane can take off on a treadmill....what college did you attend? what was your major? are you a member of MENSA?

what proof do you have? have you done this experiment all on your own? have you done it multiple times to make sure all factors are covered and that it wasn't a fluke? You tards who keep saying "yes" and that you are sooo "smart" are the biggest dumbass's there are....

People who are 100% smarter than you internet "genius's" like NASA scientists who study, and calculate, over and over and over to the point there is no room for error, things still go wrong in the "real" world...on paper it might look good....but real world is where things are proven

so I guess you all should just sit there and feel like you have some sense of intelligence...but in reality you are a bunch of tards on an import website who have no degrees in physics, aerospace engineering, aeronautical engineering, or even have the money and resource to conduct this research.....just because this question has been kicked around the internet 1billion times and you read other peoples responses and posts you are now some proclaimed genius...go jump off a bridge.....that's a laugh....the import tuner kids are all now genius's

[speedminded]

and you're the guy who takes cleaning a car way too far.....were you trying to make a point?


It's funny how you can call yourself "smart" because you say a plane can take off on a treadmill....what college did you attend? what was your major? are you a member of MENSA?

what proof do you have? have you done this experiment all on your own? have you done it multiple times to make sure all factors are covered and that it wasn't a fluke? You tards who keep saying "yes" and that you are sooo "smart" are the biggest dumbass's there are....

People who are 100% smarter than you internet "genius's" like NASA scientists who study, and calculate, over and over and over to the point there is no room for error, things still go wrong in the "real" world...on paper it might look good....but real world is where things are proven

so I guess you all should just sit there and feel like you have some sense of intelligence...but in reality you are a bunch of tards on an import website who have no degrees in physics, aerospace engineering, aeronautical engineering, or even have the money and resource to conduct this research.....just because this question has been kicked around the internet 1billion times and you read other peoples responses and posts you are now some proclaimed genius...go jump off a bridge.....that's a laugh....the import tuner kids are all now genius'sI thought no too for the first 5 minutes but didn't need anyone elses answers or responses to change my mind. You sit back, think about the process and what's going on, and you'll realize the answer.

Here's another analogy, imagine being on roller blades on a treadmill: can you hold yourself stationary with ease to prevent from falling off the back of the treadmill? Now say you were holding a rope like you were waterskiing on skates on the treadmill, if you turned the speed up all the way would it effect your ability to remain stationary? Now if someone came up behind you and pushed you would you not propel forward? The "thrust" produced from someone pushing you is no differant than the thrust of an airplanes engine, regardless of the speed of the runway/conveyor belt, the planes thrust will propel itself forward creating speed and acquiring lift. There is nothing to prevent the airplane from moving forward just as it would on any other runway.

Here's another, how about an aircraft carrier? They are moving yet a plane is still able to take off? How is that possible if a plane can not take off on a "treadmill" the size of a runway? Do you think the carrier can only be going one direction for the plane to take off? Please don't even refer to the catapult systems, they are only there to accelerate the plane because the length of the flight deck is just a small percentage the size of a traditional runway. Think about it, the wheels have nothing to do with the thrust of the plane and it's ability to propel itself forward.

[Para]

Now if someone came up behind you and pushed you would you not propel forward?
If someone came up behind you and pushed you, would you be going at the same speed, or would you be going faster than the treadmill?


Here's another, how about an aircraft carrier? They are moving yet a plane is still able to take off? How is that possible if a plane can not take off on a "treadmill" the size of a runway? Do you think the carrier can only be going one direction for the plane to take off?Carriers and aircraft do not move at the same speed. ;)

[Para]

It's funny how you can call yourself "smart" because you say a plane can take off on a treadmill....what college did you attend? what was your major? are you a member of MENSA?
College has nothing to do with a person's intelligence, not does MENSA.

[speedminded]

If someone came up behind you and pushed you, would you be going at the same speed, or would you be going faster than the treadmill?The treadmill could be moving 10 times faster than the person pushing you or it could be going 1,000 times faster, it still won't effect how hard, or easy in this case, it is for someone to push you forward.


Carriers and aircraft do not move at the same speed. ;) ok, how about this this, the earth is spinning right? Approximately 1,070 mph at the equator, does the earth spinning have any effect on a plane taking off or landing? That's far faster than a plane is going on take off yet they still take off by the 1,000's everyday with no problems. Then can a plane not land east to west just as easily as west to east or does it have to take off the same direction as the earth is spinning? (as long as there is no dangerous headwinds present anyways) The movement of the runway has no effect on the motion of a plane, just stop thinking how a car operates and you'll figure it out. :)

[Ruiner]

The funniest part is now the no's are beating the yes's. You know what that means don't ya?

Sadly, it shows the lack of education and ability to have complex, logical thought.

[speedminded]

Sadly, it shows the lack of education and ability to have complex, logical thought.I wouldn't say it's education as much as simply logical thinking. Most people associate motion with automobiles or people on treadmills, even though some aerospace personal are baffled by it too.

I feel my lack of ability to be able to explain why the plane will take off makes me less intelligent than those who do say no.

[Ruiner]

until it fucking happens, I still say no....

I don't give a shit what physic professors say or any god damn super genius...until I see it with my own two eyes

Here it is with your own eyes. The plane moves forward. Given a long enough runway, it would gain speed, generate lift, and finally take off:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk

Another one showing the plane moving forward:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDliz-YinyY

Using the flatbed of a truck as the treadmill that moves in the opposite direction:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHUnAU0MyHM

[Ruiner]

sayin a plane could take off on a treadmill is like sayin that your actually going forward when you car is on a dyno. just because the wheels are spinning doesnt mean your going anywhere.

WRONG! :lmfao::lmfao::lmfao:

A car powers itself on a dyno via its wheels. A plane DOES NOT use its wheels to move forward in terms of power.

[Ruiner]

Opposite direction will prevent it from moving. Same direction will increase it's speed.

Wrong again.

[Ruiner]

heres another example. when your running on a treadmill indoors with no fans or anything blowing on you do you feel the wind blowing against your skin...........no. its not about the speed of the tires, its about the wing passing through the air that generates lift.

Correct. What you are failing to reliaze is that a plane will MOVE FORWARD on a treadmill in relation to a stationary object on the ground. The treadmill CANNOT keep a plane from moving forward through the air as long as the wheels are free-rolling.

Watch the damn video and LEARN:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk

[Ruiner]

If you pushed the skateboard forward, the treadmill would not be moving at the same speed. If you pushed it forward, the skateboard would be moving faster than the treadmill in the opposite direction. That goes against what the OP said, therefore it can't happen.

Listen, this is rather simple:

No matter what the speed on the treadmill is in reverse (5mph, 10mph, 40mph, 150mph, etc), the plane will take off at its take-off speed.

Remember, the treadmill has to be as long as a normal runway.

Just watch. Notice how the plane travels forward? Eventually it would build up enough speed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk

[Para]

Listen, this is rather simple:

No matter what the speed on the treadmill is in reverse (5mph, 10mph, 40mph, 150mph, etc), the plane will take off at its take-off speed.

Remember, the treadmill has to be as long as a normal runway.

Just watch. Notice how the plane travels forward? Eventually it would build up enough speed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk
I can't watch the video, I'm browsing from my phone.

My point is that the plane will never reach any speed according to the OP. I would agree with you if the treadmill were at at constant speed.

If the treadmill continues to move underneath the aircraft, the plane will never move. It does not matter how a plane's forward momentum is normally achieved, it cannot go forward if the ground below it is moving in the opposite direction.