Faith

[biblethumper]

Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see"
V.3
"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."

[Romeyo07]

I have a feeling this will turn into an evolution vs. creation thread

[2.0civic]

^^ thinking the same

[biblethumper]

Prolly

[BABY J]

Faith = wack. So is "religion" (please know the diff between religion and spirituality). It all keys in on the power of the human mind. You can psyche yourself up to belive anything. It's designed to keep MOST of the people happy MOST of the time. Too many unconsistencies.

**waits for the shitstorm, which will bring LIFE to this dead thread**

[metalman]

For the "godless" faith keys on the human mind...and is "wack". The godless have only their own weak mind/power to rely on, hense their inconsistent perceptions.

For those that know God faith keys on His mind, power & word as seen in ones life and is quite real.

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Those without a spiritual mind cannot concieve faith nor do they understand it....even though they have a faith in their own flawed wisdom. ;)

[quickdodge®]

The godless have only their own weak mind/power to rely on, hense their inconsistent perceptions.


That's completely untrue. Just because a person does not believe in God or what you believe, that doesn't make them "weak"-minded. But, with your typical Christian and their "power" to be right all the time, that is yet another pre-judgemne they make. Later, QD.

[Romeyo07]

To think that I'm right about what I believe doesn't mean you are being judged. People are so quick to throw out "don't judge me you Christian, you're not supposed to do that" when really you're just judging yourself against us. Not once have I seen anyone here point fingers at anyone, just enlighten you on what we believe.

[biblethumper]

True true. I am not here to judge you.

[metalman]

That's completely untrue. Just because a person does not believe in God or what you believe, that doesn't make them "weak"-minded. But, with your typical Christian and their "power" to be right all the time, that is yet another pre-judgemne they make. Later, QD.

That isnt at all what I said, you have misunderstood, or I didnt make it clear.

ALL humans are "weak" minded...period....in comparison to God.

Those who truly know God realize this...those who don't know God often or usually dont, and will rely on their own wisdom instead of a greater wisdom.

[ShooterMcGavin]

For those that know God faith keys on His mind, power & word as seen in ones life and is quite real.



don't you have to have FAITH to begin with in order to believe in god or a god?

[metalman]

don't you have to have FAITH to begin with in order to believe in god or a god?

Almost none. Only a grain of mustard seed....if that much.

Faith is a gift.

[ShooterMcGavin]

haha, that's where we differ in opinion, greatly.

[metalman]

Well opinions aside, thats what Jesus said...and if one were to "challenge" Him on that by testing that...they will find out for sure. Some of us have. ;)

This question is sort of like saying 'how much money do I need to invest'
The answer depends on how much return you want. It only takes a penny.
And like investing, when one recieves that return he will only wish to invest more. Why? Because in THIS system unlike money markets, you never lose.
Another key difference in investing faith as opposed to money is the rate of return.

But those who never invest will never know.

[ShooterMcGavin]

precisely then, you just agreed with what i asked (somewhat rhetorically) earlier, you have to invest FAITH in order to "get some back" and come to believe completely in god.

[BABY J]

I have seen people die in the streets while begging and pleading for invisible help from God that never arrives. I think RELIGION is the worst thing to happen to spirituality. God (if there is one) would be too big to fit inside of 1 religion... yet Christianity is one of the most arrogant of all the religions. Honestly I grew up in church and accepted him as Lord and Savior as kid... after spending 8 years in the military and seeing things that most will NEVER believe could happen is when I had doubts, and have had doubts every since. Am I SPIRITUAL? Yes. I think that most things have a good spirit or a bad spirit. But am I religious? No. Why do you speak English? Most likely b/c your parents did --> you are a product of your environment. Look on your kitchen counter and chances are you use the same dish detergent that your mom did. So here's the skinny... you are born in China (by NO fault of your own, and you are a Buddhist). You die and go to hell b/c of that? I am NOT buying the RELIGIOUS separation that exists... if God said "come as you are" then why are Christians trying to "convert" others to Christianity? And even Christians have MANY seprations in their own religion. Ask a Presbyterian why they are Presbyterian and they will most likely not be able to answer. In fact, ask them why they are Presbyterian vs Methodist and chances are they will not even be able to tell you what the difference is. Fickle crowd, and as humans we always will be. There is not a preacher on Earth that has told me anything more than what a good mom and dad can tell me. Don't steal? No shit! I do not need a preacher to tell me good common sense about treating others right. I could go on...

Bottom line, if you were adopted at birth by a Japanese family, chances are greater than not that you'd 1) speak Japanese and 2) be a Buddhist and SWEAR by Buddhism as much as you swear by Christianity today.

[metalman]

precisely then, you just agreed with what i asked (somewhat rhetorically) earlier, you have to invest FAITH in order to "get some back" and come to believe completely in god.

Except for one thing...it takes virtually no faith to start with. Only the grain of mustard seed. Ever seen one? You need a strong magnifying glass. ;)

That miniscule amount of faith, demonstrated by ones actions, can bring more then enough "return" to convince one completely, with one "transaction", that God is real.

So how much does it take?? Almost nothing.

God is only looking for a mustard seed worth of faith...which He will reward overwhelmingly....and then some.

[ShooterMcGavin]

I have seen people die in the streets while begging and pleading for invisible help from God that never arrives. I think RELIGION is the worst thing to happen to spirituality. God (if there is one) would be too big to fit inside of 1 religion... yet Christianity is one of the most arrogant of all the religions. Honestly I grew up in church and accepted him as Lord and Savior as kid... after spending 8 years in the military and seeing things that most will NEVER believe could happen is when I had doubts, and have had doubts every since. Am I SPIRITUAL? Yes. I think that most things have a good spirit or a bad spirit. But am I religious? No. Why do you speak English? Most likely b/c your parents did --> you are a product of your environment. Look on your kitchen counter and chances are you use the same dish detergent that your mom did. So here's the skinny... you are born in China (by NO fault of your own, and you are a Buddhist). You die and go to hell b/c of that? I am NOT buying the RELIGIOUS separation that exists... if God said "come as you are" then why are Christians trying to "convert" others to Christianity? And even Christians have MANY seprations in their own religion. Ask a Presbyterian why they are Presbyterian and they will most likely not be able to answer. In fact, ask them why they are Presbyterian vs Methodist and chances are they will not even be able to tell you what the difference is. Fickle crowd, and as humans we always will be. There is not a preacher on Earth that has told me anything more than what a good mom and dad can tell me. Don't steal? No shit! I do not need a preacher to tell me good common sense about treating others right. I could go on...

Bottom line, if you were adopted at birth by a Japanese family, chances are greater than not that you'd 1) speak Japanese and 2) be a Buddhist and SWEAR by Buddhism as much as you swear by Christianity today.

lol @ DH for gettin worked up over this :D but it's all good, i understand where ur coming from 100% :goodjob:

oh yeah, most azns are atheist and don't really practice buddhism, and i think japan's other main religion is shintoism ;)

[BABY J]

I am not worked up Bro. :) And I was just thorwing things out there for the sake of debate.

[ShooterMcGavin]

Except for one thing...it takes virtually no faith to start with. Only the grain of mustard seed. Ever seen one? You need a strong magnifying glass. ;)

That miniscule amount of faith, demonstrated by ones actions, can bring more then enough "return" to convince one completely, with one "transaction", that God is real.

So how much does it take?? Almost nothing.

God is only looking for a mustard seed worth of faith...which He will reward overwhelmingly....and then some.

i tend to disagree based on your previous statement where you made an analogy to investing. you had said you only needed to start with a penny (or the mustard seed), but if you want to keep getting more and more back (which you assume that you will want to), you have to keep investing more.

so i guess what i'm saying is, even if all that's needed is a mustard seed, or in reality, an open mind and heart to accept christ, it takes a lot more to become a firm believer with great faith.

[ShooterMcGavin]

I am not worked up Bro. :) And I was just thorwing things out there for the sake of debate.
it's ok, you can admit it to me, KITT already told me about your views on this anyway ;)

[metalman]

Bottom line, if you were adopted at birth by a Japanese family, chances are greater than not that you'd 1) speak Japanese and 2) be a Buddhist and SWEAR by Buddhism as much as you swear by Christianity today.

With your statement you have simply pointed out how the majority of mankind tends to follow "tradition".
Many people who call themselves "Christians" are no exception. Often, the words of men are revered more then the Word of God.

Nevertheless, God calls mankind to cease from following tradition and follow Him. The fact the majority does not respond to that call doesnt in any way disprove that call. It only shows the condition mankind is in.

Fact is, those who hear His voice and who truly follow God have always been a small minority in comparison to humanity overall.

Looking to other humans for our "example" or to show you the way will virtually always fail.

"My sheep hear my voice...they follow (ONLY) Me" - Jesus

[BABY J]

The ONLY way that RELIGION (Not, God, or spirituality) can work is if EVERY man that has ever died and WILL die gets at least 1 opportunity to learn about Christ. That is not the case, even w/ all of the technology and missionaries we have today. RELIGION in itself is the 1st step to spiritual prejudiced.... and well, we all know what a GREAT thing prejudice is. ;)

[metalman]

i tend to disagree based on your previous statement where you made an analogy to investing. you had said you only needed to start with a penny (or the mustard seed), but if you want to keep getting more and more back (which you assume that you will want to), you have to keep investing more.

.

I see that...but maybe you overlooked something else I said....the rate of return.
Unlike money it doesnt take repeated investments for years or lifetimes, although if one does that the reward will be beyond comprehension, but thats not required.

Furthermore, my illustration is just that, an illustration. It certainly falls short in it's description.

Like I said...those who don't "invest" will not ever know. ;)

[ShooterMcGavin]

with your last statement you ALMOST seem to be making the assumption that i haven't invested...which i can tell you is not the case...no need to get into details but let's just say that you're not speaking to someone who is agnostic and not atheist for a good reason.

[metalman]

The ONLY way that RELIGION (Not, God, or spirituality) can work is if EVERY man that has ever died and WILL die gets at least 1 opportunity to learn about Christ. That is not the case, even w/ all of the technology and missionaries we have today. RELIGION in itself is the 1st step to spiritual prejudiced.... and well, we all know what a GREAT thing prejudice is. ;)

God=Jesus=Spirtuality...all are the same thing, regardless of the names mankind attaches to it.

There is NO spirtuality without God.

Of course there's spiritualism...the worshipping of devils.

God is within every human, regardless of whether theyve read or seen a Bible.
They either follow their GOD GIVEN concience (knowlege/sense of right and wrong) or not.

Your condemnation of religions is really a result of how MEN have treated you or other men, NOT a result of there being no Creator God. It also demonstrates how there are man-made religions that use Gods name but really arent "of God".

[BABY J]

^^ LOL. You do not even know me... you know nothing of how I have "been treated". LOL --> that's laughable at best. :)

[metalman]

with your last statement you ALMOST seem to be making the assumption that i haven't invested...which i can tell you is not the case...no need to get into details but let's just say that you're not speaking to someone who is agnostic and not atheist for a good reason.

I have implied no such thing. Nor have I intended to.
I am only stating what I know to be true. How that applies or doesnt apply to you I have no idea. :)

[BABY J]

God=Jesus=Spirtuality...all are the same thing, regardless of the names mankind attaches to it.

There is NO spirtuality without God.

Of course there's spiritualism...the worshipping of devils.

God is within every human, regardless of whether theyve read or seen a Bible.
They either follow their GOD GIVEN concience (knowlege/sense of right and wrong) or not.

Your condemnation of religions is really a result of how MEN have treated you or other men, NOT a result of there being no Creator God. It also demonstrates how there are man-made religions that use Gods name but really arent "of God".

Ok. I was being nice at 1st. Now I will play. So are you saying that Christianity and all that it entails is Truth?

[metalman]

^^ LOL. You do not even know me... you know nothing of how I have "been treated". LOL --> that's laughable at best. :)

Your argument is quite weak then...and you are double talking...you were the one that brought up prejudice...which as a matter of fact IS how men treat others....whether thats you or mankind in general.

[metalman]

Ok. I was being nice at 1st. Now I will play. So are you saying that Christianity and all that it entails is Truth?

I am not playing...this isnt a game...I am for real.
First explain to me what Christianity IS and all that IT entails....then perhaps I can attempt to answer that.

[ShooterMcGavin]

I see that...but maybe you overlooked something else I said....the rate of return.
Unlike money it doesnt take repeated investments for years or lifetimes, although if one does that the reward will be beyond comprehension, but thats not required.



but how can you possibly measure rate of return on FAITH? especially when it almost is guaranteed to vary from individual to individual?

also i disagree with your view that repeated investments over years or a lifetime is not necessary. think of it this way, i learned basic addition and subtraction in kindergarten, if i don't reinvest (by using it, keeping the skills sharp), am i guaranteed to know how to do it when i'm 80 yrs old?

faith as i know it and as i believe is an investment that needs to be made continuously in order to remember the bible's teachings and live by them.

[metalman]

but how can you possibly measure rate of return on FAITH? especially when it almost is guaranteed to vary from individual to individual?


Actually the end result "intrest rate" is the same for all. Its been published.
Also, I dont guarantee anything...God does however.

[BABY J]

Your argument is quite weak then...and you are double talking...you were the one that brought up prejudice...which as a matter of fact IS how men treat others....whether thats you or mankind in general.

My argument is weak. Do you know what my argument is? The only thing that I have DEFINITELY said is that RELIGIONS weakens and has weakened true spirituality. I have not otherwise said what I belive in or do not believe in... and that's by design. I play advocate a LOT to see if people know WHY they believe or do not believe a certain thing. The fact is, more times than not, a devout Christian wants you to listen to their views and will not even LISTEN to the views of others... yet they call other people "narrow-minded". Their answer when they get cornered is always the "gray area" of FAITH. "Oh Bob, just have faith"... like it's THAT simple. LOL.


Your condemnation of religions is really a result of how MEN have treated you or other men, NOT a result of there being no Creator God. It also demonstrates how there are man-made religions that use Gods name but really arent "of God".

I never said that there is no creator or God. However, siding w/ a religion or condeming another religion, or saying that YOUR God is THE God and every1 else's is wrong put "limitations" on the very God you say is ALL POWERFUL and ALL KNOWING. He is SO ALL POWERFUL that he can only save 1 race (relgion) of people? That says to me that there are, and always was, millions of people who never had a chance at making it to heaven in the 1st place do you not agree. BOTTOM LINE: If your God is as powerful as you say he is, then he is too big to fit inside of "Christianity".

[ShooterMcGavin]

Actually the end result "intrest rate" is the same for all. Its been published.
Also, I dont guarantee anything...God does however.

i was never contesting the END RESULT, but since this discussion began based on what needed to be invested in order to obtain those end results.

and i never claimed that you could or couldn't guarantee anything so i don't know why that was brought up? :thinking:

[quickdodge®]

That isnt at all what I said, you have misunderstood, or I didnt make it clear.

ALL humans are "weak" minded...period....in comparison to God.




Got you. My bad on the misunderstanding, dude. I know of God. I'm not all that faithful, but I do realize that I am weak-minded in his and others presence. Later, QD.

[Romeyo07]

j, if your arguement is that religion weakens, then yes I agree. Following the priciples of a particular group of people is not what God calls us to do. We are to seek Him and His truth and His way, not those of any group on earth. This includes ANY religion.

I don't follow a religion, I follow Jesus. Religion leaves room for fault, God doesn't. I happen to go to a Baptist church, which I do not follow to a "T" your typical Baptist "guidline". This particular church best suited the guidelines God has put in my heart to follow.

If there is one suggestion I could make to those who don't believe or have a hard time believing, its to stop focusing on the religion and focus on God. If you really want to know more, just ask. Take a leap of faith and just ask God "if you're really there, open my eyes to see you". May not get your answer immediately, but you'll get an answer.

Psalm 145:18 "The Lord is close to all who call on him, yes, to all who call on him sincerely."

[BABY J]

^^ very well said.

[ShooterMcGavin]

:werd:

[biblethumper]

Well said

[holy mini]

Some serious stuff here. I love listening to other people's beliefs... It helps in understanding what is right and wrong. I think bottom line, it comes down to what you personally believe in your heart. I know that Jesus saved me and He is the only way for me. He provides for everything in my life and TO HIM BE THE GLORY in all things. but I like hearing what other people have to say. I like the way my religion post is being censored!!!
Jeremiah

[ShooterMcGavin]

guess that's why he's a nUb huh? :D

[Hulud]

guess that's why he's a nUb huh? :D
guess so LOL

[Jaimecbr900]

Nice discussion.

I agree with Baby J to an extent, believe it or not. ;)

The only fault I find with his viewpoint is that he seems (correct me if I'm wrong) to be globbing ALL "RELIGIONS", especially Christianity, into the same mixing bowl.

Personally, I think that spirituality is a pesonal thing. Regardless if you go to church 100 times a week or never. WHAT you believe in is infinitely more important than WHERE you believe it IMO.

In other words, there are religions (including Christians) that blindly follow the preacher/rabbi/leader/etc without ever using their own brains to think for themselves and research what they are hearing. If it doesn't make sense to you, why follow it? If it does, why not?

Some people choose to ignore things, some choose not to believe things. That is completely and 100% their perrogative. Those people also need to understand, and more importantly respect, that there are MORE people that disagree with their religious point of view. It is inevitable. As a matter of fact, if you read the Bible, it tells you THAT is the way it has ALWAYS been. The minority trying to convince the majority. It is simply the way it is. Our job is merely to profess what we feel to be true in our hearts when called upon. After that it is the job of the listener to CHOOSE what to do with that information. It really is that basic at it's core.

You listen, you choose. Easy enough. Both sides have consequences. You just have to choose which one works for you. ;)

[holy mini]

I am a noob, and proud of it... But even down the road, I will still talk about my car club as it is a big part of my life... It is also a part of my faith and my ministry. I wish there was not censorship (or editing) in the religion posts, but I respect that.

[holy mini]

now that that's said... lets get to the discussion...

I also believe 100% that it never matters where you believe or what you are classified as in religious terms, cause it does come down to your personal ideas and mindset. I feel sorry for people that believe things just cause someone puts up a good argument and sells them on an idea... It take conviction and personal experiences to create your ideas... Some times when we just follow the motions of life we get caught up in a routeen and never grow (mentally or spiritually).

Welp just my 2 cents...

[babygurl]

so i guess what i'm saying is, even if all that's needed is a mustard seed, or in reality, an open mind and heart to accept christ, it takes a lot more to become a firm believer with great faith.


I would have to agree with you. Some people tend to believe, that you accept Jesus into your heart, and you can go back to your regular life. But you have to change some things to get where you need to be.

I am not religious by any means, but I do believe in God, and Jesus is Lord. I believe religion gets to complicated. As far as faith goes, the way I see it is, its not by sight. Can you see a line of love between two people? Honestly, I think not. You can feel the love between two people. So its kind of the same thing. Now to also state this, you can see faith in someone by there actions...and their love for someone. But I think it goes deeper then actions.

[babygurl]

My argument is weak. Do you know what my argument is? The only thing that I have DEFINITELY said is that RELIGIONS weakens and has weakened true spirituality. I have not otherwise said what I belive in or do not believe in... and that's by design. I play advocate a LOT to see if people know WHY they believe or do not believe a certain thing. The fact is, more times than not, a devout Christian wants you to listen to their views and will not even LISTEN to the views of others... yet they call other people "narrow-minded". Their answer when they get cornered is always the "gray area" of FAITH. "Oh Bob, just have faith"... like it's THAT simple. LOL.".

BabyJ is correct there are "christains" who will push religion on someone, telling them their beliefs are wrong. And honestly to me I dont view that as a "True Christain" Honestly a true christain will listen to someone's views, and discuss not argue like children about God, and religion.





I never said that there is no creator or God. However, siding w/ a religion or condeming another religion, or saying that YOUR God is THE God and every1 else's is wrong put "limitations" on the very God you say is ALL POWERFUL and ALL KNOWING. He is SO ALL POWERFUL that he can only save 1 race (relgion) of people? That says to me that there are, and always was, millions of people who never had a chance at making it to heaven in the 1st place do you not agree. BOTTOM LINE: If your God is as powerful as you say he is, then he is too big to fit inside of "Christianity".

Religion is man made.

Please find me where it says anywhere on the board and in the bible where Jesus/God will only save one race????

[BABY J]

Religion is man made. Please find me where it says anywhere on the board and in the bible where Jesus/God will only save one race????

U missed my point silly. I never said that. But you have devout Christians downing other religions in an organized fashion. They said that "their" God is the truth and the light, which to me says that others' God is not. Of course we can't be stupid, if I create a homemade religion then of course it's garbage. But most of the mainstream relgions are more alike than they are different... yet a fire and brimstone Christian preacher will gladly openly say that religion xyz (Muslims, for example) are gonna burn.

[Jaimecbr900]

U missed my point silly. I never said that. But you have devout Christians downing other religions in an organized fashion. They said that "their" God is the truth and the light, which to me says that others' God is not. Of course we can't be stupid, if I create a homemade religion then of course it's garbage. But most of the mainstream relgions are more alike than they are different... yet a fire and brimstone Christian preacher will gladly openly say that religion xyz (Muslims, for example) are gonna burn.

You are right that delivery is wayyy off, but there is some truth to what they're saying.

Don't flame me just yet, hear me out.

The Bible clearly says that there is only ONE GOD. It also says that you shouldn't worship any OTHER "Gods" too. So therefore, that fire and brimstone preacher may be standoffish in his delivery of that message, but his content is technically correct.

It's the old addage of "you get more bees with honey than with vinegar...." Most preachers that deliver the message in that fashion rely on scare tactics as a way to scare people into doing something. That IMO is wrong. They damage the message, as seen here, with their delivery. Personally, I've been so preoccupied and put off by preachers that preach sermons in that manner that I never heard anything they had to say. So all that yelling and getting beet red in the face did absolutely nothing for me to understand or like or make me come closer to understanding any religion.

Same idea behind Jehova's Witnesses. They put people in such awkward and uncomfortable positions that even if their message was correct, it would get lost in the translation.

You can't shove spirituality down anyone's throat, they'll choke on it and spit it back up at you. That IMO is the mistake many churches and preachers and even people make when discussion religion to someone else.

Yes, there is black and white. Yes, there are methods to the madness. Yes, there are consequences......but that doesn't always mean you have hit someone with a 2X4 with those things written on it for them to understand it and make a decision about it.

[ShooterMcGavin]

nice post, +1

[BABY J]

VERY well said. Some1 who sees where I am coming from. I perfer to be TAUGHT that scared. I can "scare" some1 into smoking crack, that doesn't mean that it's a good thing. Those preachers have a "gimmick"... rather than fear HELL and abide, I'd rather be GOD-fearing and abide. 2 totally different concepts --> a lot of preachers are missing the mark.

[babygurl]

nicely put!

[Jaimecbr900]

VERY well said. Some1 who sees where I am coming from. I perfer to be TAUGHT that scared. I can "scare" some1 into smoking crack, that doesn't mean that it's a good thing. Those preachers have a "gimmick"... rather than fear HELL and abide, I'd rather be GOD-fearing and abide. 2 totally different concepts --> a lot of preachers are missing the mark.

A lot of negative stigma that surrounds "religion" comes from those misinterpreted deliveries.

If you visit a "church" and see this preacher up behind a pulpit, slamming down a bible, screaming, turning red, and saying you either change/repent/or you'll go to HELL!!!! It leaves the wrong impression about what God really teaches, although again technically the message is right.

There is a time and a place where every single Christian will be tested about their faith. Those times are the times where black and white, right and wrong, and what you TRULY believe in will HAVE to show. If it gets heated THEN, so be it. But you shouldn't go around slamming Bibles into people's faces all the time to get results. Our job is to learn and teach, period. It is not to condemn people for not agreeing with us, that is judging and only one can do that. ;)

[knee_grow]

Hell I had faith Pat Robertson was in that helicopter. But did God come through? Fuck no. Bitch