Pregunta?

[Tasuki_Civic]

i had a discussion with a friend about the purpose in life as a chrisitan.


i dont understand why there are so many rules about this religion and all you have to do is ask god for your forgiviness and you will go to heaven.


ive been told from many pple that even if you are a natural born killer for years and get caught. then before you get fried in the pin you ask for forgiviness pple say that you wil still go to heaven.

so whats the point if you have sex before marriage, drink, smoke, and even try to kill yourself and you still go to heaven? just make sure you do it before you die so you wont go to hell.

theres no purpose for all the rules in the religion that stops you from doing all this and its just simple to ask. the only secrect about that is you have to mean what you say when you ask for forgivness.


~~Now dont get on me about this. im only asking what you guys think because ive been told this from MANY pple who are chrisitains~~

[metalman]

You have been somewhat misinformed.

First, there are not "so many rules" in true Christianity. Some churches have added all numbers of man made rules to Gods religion, something Christ admonished His followers against.

Secondly, willful sin and repentance as one willful act gets one no where near heaven.
That is a nonsensical roman catholic notion that has "infected" many so-called christain churches.

Its true that any sin can be forgiven, except one, BUT no one will fool the only perfect Judge when it comes to willful sin and insincere phony repentance.

That being said, it is also true that a murderer or similar wicked person can repent and be forgiven but that act MUST be genuine, not some plan to sneak it in before death. Thats neither logical or Biblical.

True repentance involves more then saying "I am sorry"

God calls for mankind to repent AND turn from ALL sin....immediately.

"Choose ye THIS DAY whom ye will serve...."

"Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live."

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."


"Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God..."

[ShooterMcGavin]

it's all based on faith and one's relationship w/god so to speak as those in question and god are the only ones who know if they are truly sorry/repentent for their sins. no way for anyone else to know who actually went to hell and who didn't (such as serial killers and the like that repented for their sins before their death).

[4dmin]

i had a discussion with a friend about the purpose in life as a chrisitan.


i dont understand why there are so many rules about this religion and all you have to do is ask god for your forgiviness and you will go to heaven.


ive been told from many pple that even if you are a natural born killer for years and get caught. then before you get fried in the pin you ask for forgiviness pple say that you wil still go to heaven.

so whats the point if you have sex before marriage, drink, smoke, and even try to kill yourself and you still go to heaven? just make sure you do it before you die so you wont go to hell.

theres no purpose for all the rules in the religion that stops you from doing all this and its just simple to ask. the only secrect about that is you have to mean what you say when you ask for forgivness.


~~Now dont get on me about this. im only asking what you guys think because ive been told this from MANY pple who are chrisitains~~

just think you could be sitting next to hitler in heaven :jerkit:

[ShooterMcGavin]

negatory, he took his own life, no heaven for him.

[4dmin]

negatory, he took his own life, no heaven for him.

yes if that was correct, i've read some conflicting stories on his actual death. :goodjob: ; but again who really knows.

[babygurl]

As Metalman stated, you have to mean that you are sorry for the sins you commited....repentance has to be pure of heart.

And he also stated, that God the perfect Judge knows everything, and that is true.

And as far as the rules, they are guide lines, in life...God also gave us free will to make our own choices....

[metalman]

just think you could be sitting next to hitler in heaven :jerkit:

Actually not. Hitler committed suicide, his last act was a sin, thats not how one gets to heaven. :rolleyes:

[metalman]

As Metalman stated, you have to mean that you are sorry for the sins you commited....repentance has to be pure of heart.

And he also stated, that God the perfect Judge knows everything, and that is true.

And as far as the rules, they are guide lines, in life...God also gave us free will to make our own choices....

Thank you for that.

You are very right when you speak of freewill. One "infection" of nonsense among so called Christians its the idea that others must be "pushed", forced by civil law even, to be moral. That is not a Christian principle. Freewill includes the freedom to choose the wrong path, or any path, and the consequenses of that path. That is a true Christian principle.

[4dmin]

Actually not. Hitler committed suicide, his last act was a sin, thats not how one gets to heaven. :rolleyes:

umm he was found w/ a gun shot to the head if i'm not mistaken and his mistress died by poison.. so there is speculation on how he died, so it is ver possible someone else shot him. so like i said in the previous post as suggested... who knows? have you been to heaven to check to see? ok.

[Tasuki_Civic]

You have been somewhat misinformed.

First, there are not "so many rules" in true Christianity. Some churches have added all numbers of man made rules to Gods religion, something Christ admonished His followers against.

Secondly, willful sin and repentance as one willful act gets one no where near heaven.
That is a nonsensical roman catholic notion that has "infected" many so-called christain churches.

Its true that any sin can be forgiven, except one, BUT no one will fool the only perfect Judge when it comes to willful sin and insincere phony repentance.

That being said, it is also true that a murderer or similar wicked person can repent and be forgiven but that act MUST be genuine, not some plan to sneak it in before death. Thats neither logical or Biblical.

True repentance involves more then saying "I am sorry"

God calls for mankind to repent AND turn from ALL sin....immediately.

"Choose ye THIS DAY whom ye will serve...."

"Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live."

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."


"Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God..."



im not trying to be a smart ass so dont take it as that. but im not looking for someone to quote the bible. i would like your actually insite of it. those who quote books dont have a mind of their own. with messages from the bible you have to de-code them to even understand some of it.

i do understand all the things that you have to be true to your heart when you ask for forgiviness. but ok....hitler for example. you know what he had done. but yet lets say 2 weeks before he died he was true when he meant that he was sorry for the awful things he had done and yadda yadda yadda.........then someone kills him. WILL HE GO TO HEAVEN??

another example. i cannot remember who this killer was, but he apparantly killed over a dozen pple. but the day of his death which he was put in the chair. the pple who were the witnesses saw him pray and ask for forgiveness and the witnesses swore up and down even ( strong belief chirstians) that he went to heaven.

so whats the difference you go to heaven if you ask for forgivness a couple of days before you die? or you will go to heaven no matter what time as long as you ask for forgiviness before you die?


i know i have like 5 questions in one but....is the purpose of life as a christian to live good and pray and always ask for forgivness jus so we can go to heaven? is living a punishment so we can show god that we are loyal and then when we show that we are ( though life) we go to heaven to be with god?

what purpose does it serve to live life? when its a sin to kill one that has hurt you badly or it is a sin to have a child before marrige.

why not live to be one with yourself praise a god and not worship jesus. yes he died for our sins but what does that mean eactly. i thught jesus was a teacher authority didnt like and then they killed him cause he had too much power.( MLK JFK and so on) ( thats just the jist of it, didnt want to go into detailed cause ive already wrote enough)

and how can you actualy believe all the stories like lusapher(sorry cant spell it) the devil and god how they are against each other.why out of all things is he a snake? why not a snail or a bird? jus for that my grandmother hates snake anything!! because of the bible. and they are just as deadly as any other animal? alot of pple say " well thats just how it is" " god made it like that and thats what the book says" but these days pple dont believe everything that is written in a book. and bibbles are re-made every few years. How do you really know what Jesus has really done or said.

like that one guy that was on Oprah that wrote a fiction book and he swore up and down it was still a non-fiction book. pple had an outrage it was all over the news and cnn.

im not against christianity or any religion but alot ...and i mean alot of pple who are believe that any other religion is a fake and is not the true story....they even feel offensive when a person says they are catholic or muslim like they are beneath them.

but isnt there a famous quote " He who wins the war, writes the book"

[ShooterMcGavin]

doesn't matter who swore up and down what the guy ACTED like before he died, no one else knows/knew except him and god.

according to the bible, a christian's time on earth is just a short "pitstop" before making it to heaven where they will enjoy eternal life with god. obviously, to be a good christian, u are supposed to live with good values, morals and do all that a christian is supposed to do.

and don't ask me how i can believe in god and satan (i'm agnostic), it's all based on faith, belief in something that can not be proved scientifically.

[buddha@TeamFX]

In my eyes and what I believe and was taught...You also have to be convicted by god to surender your life to him

[Tasuki_Civic]

doesn't matter who swore up and down what the guy ACTED like before he died, no one else knows/knew except him and god.

according to the bible, a christian's time on earth is just a short "pitstop" before making it to heaven where they will enjoy eternal life with god. obviously, to be a good christian, u are supposed to live with good values, morals and do all that a christian is supposed to do.

and don't ask me how i can believe in god and satan (i'm agnostic), it's all based on faith, belief in something that can not be proved scientifically.

whats faith to you? so what to you believe scientific values? that everything happened over time and there is no god no maker of this world or human kind. or animal?


ooh and i didnt ask you i was talkin to metalman

[Tasuki_Civic]

In my eyes and what I believe and was taught...You also have to be convicted by god to surender your life to him


you have to be found quilty by god inorder to surender you life to him? what do you mean?

[ShooterMcGavin]

whats faith to you? so what to you believe scientific values? that everything happened over time and there is no god no maker of this world or human kind. or animal?


ooh and i didnt ask you i was talkin to metalman

there's a reason i told u i was agnostic (go look it up if u don't know what that is). and if u weren't talkin to me then direct ur post to someone to begin with and stop being a fuckstick about it. plus, why'd u respond with more questions???

[Romeyo07]

Actually not. Hitler committed suicide, his last act was a sin, thats not how one gets to heaven. :rolleyes:

sorry but you're wrong. If my last act is sin, I'm still forgiven and covered by His blood. No where in the bible does it state that, and I know you can't prove it.

Reason being, we sin and don't even know it...since there aren't any different levels of sin, my sin of having rage when someone cuts me off in traffic is no different than my sin of commiting suicide. I go home and live my life and act as if nothing happened later. Not once in the bible does it say anything going to hell for commiting suicide. The only thing that sends you to hell is the rejection of Jesus.

[Tasuki_Civic]

doesn't matter who swore up and down what the guy ACTED like before he died, no one else knows/knew except him and god.

according to the bible, a christian's time on earth is just a short "pitstop" before making it to heaven where they will enjoy eternal life with god. obviously, to be a good christian, u are supposed to live with good values, morals and do all that a christian is supposed to do.

and don't ask me how i can believe in god and satan (i'm agnostic), it's all based on faith, belief in something that can not be proved scientifically.



there's a reason i told u i was agnostic (go look it up if u don't know what that is). and if u weren't talkin to me then direct ur post to someone to begin with and stop being a fuckstick about it. plus, why'd u respond with more questions???


shut the hell up you dumb retard im not lookin for a fight or a smartass in this thread. your the one who said
it's all based on faith,
i know what agnostic means and if i didnt i wouldnt have asked you that question. i didnt start the thread for one person ...."IF YOU READ THE THREAD!!!" you would know i was responding to someone else. and also this isnt a thread for you so why would you respond if you are unsure or dont believe in a a higher being. please make yourself useful and stay in the whoreslounge where you belong. :slap:

Thank-you

[Tasuki_Civic]

sorry but you're wrong. If my last act is sin, I'm still forgiven and covered by His blood. No where in the bible does it state that, and I know you can't prove it.

Reason being, we sin and don't even know it...since there aren't any different levels of sin, my sin of having rage when someone cuts me off in traffic is no different than my sin of commiting suicide. I go home and live my life and act as if nothing happened later. Not once in the bible does it say anything going to hell for commiting suicide. The only thing that sends you to hell is the rejection of Jesus.


really i didnt know. other plpe have told me differently as if it is in the bible. is that one of the man made rules ...commiting suicide?

[Tasuki_Civic]

i mean thte reason why i made this thread is beacause i would like a better understanding and a little insight. if i go to a church MOST will recite out the book. i want to know what it means. in a way it has to be broken down a little to me because many pple go by what things are and not know why

[Romeyo07]

man made myth...and large debate in Christian society. I was raised to believe the same thing, but have yet to find evidence in the bible where it states that if you die in sin you go to hell. If that's the case, then EVERYONE will go to hell, since we sin without knowing it.

Tasuki, in lamens terms...when someone comes to Christ the next thing you do is absolutely nothing. Don't stop your habits, your way of life, etc. God makes the changes in us, which is why I don't do drugs anymore, swear like a sailor, etc. I'm far from perfect, but its ok. God will only make the changes in you if you truely desire to want to change.

I was tired of the drama with my x, the late night drinking binges, random immorality, etc. I lived the same life many people live now. I just don't feel like doing that stuff anymore. I no longer crave needing to smoke a blunt after a bad day, or cussing out the people who cut me off, etc.

The bible isn't a set of rules, it's a map.

I'm on AIM if you wanna talk: Romeyo07

[Tasuki_Civic]

i gotcha

[Romeyo07]

wow, that was easy :D

[ShooterMcGavin]

shut the hell up you dumb retard im not lookin for a fight or a smartass in this thread. your the one who said
i know what agnostic means and if i didnt i wouldnt have asked you that question. i didnt start the thread for one person ...."IF YOU READ THE THREAD!!!" you would know i was responding to someone else. and also this isnt a thread for you so why would you respond if you are unsure or dont believe in a a higher being. please make yourself useful and stay in the whoreslounge where you belong. :slap:

Thank-you

oooh, dumb retard? what'd you just graduate from the 3rd grade yesterday and copped those terms on your way out? please. i KNOW you didn't start this thread for one person that's why i fuckin posted trying to give you some insight you so desperately craved, if you didn't like it then just ignore it, why try to start some shit by mocking what i had to say? and just because i'm not believer doesn't mean i haven't been around religion for the better part of my life, being exposed to the teachings of the bible. how ignorant of you to think that just because one does not believe, one does not know.

oh and i belong in the whoreslounge? funny coming from you, one who seldom wanders away from the DICK and SHIT posts in the sex and nws sections. with that said, let me end on a verse for you: "let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

[ShooterMcGavin]

sorry but you're wrong. If my last act is sin, I'm still forgiven and covered by His blood. No where in the bible does it state that, and I know you can't prove it.

Reason being, we sin and don't even know it...since there aren't any different levels of sin, my sin of having rage when someone cuts me off in traffic is no different than my sin of commiting suicide. I go home and live my life and act as if nothing happened later. Not once in the bible does it say anything going to hell for commiting suicide. The only thing that sends you to hell is the rejection of Jesus.

i retract my statement as you are correct on this, i had forgotten the whole "suicide leads to hell" thing comes from catholicism :goodjob:

[Romeyo07]

its a weird situation, on the one hand, you're forgiven of your sins....but on the other if you've truely accepted Jesus, then suicide usually isn't something you'd consider. It's the afternoon and my brain hurts...I'll start thinking again tomorrow.

[ShooterMcGavin]

indeed, still sickening to know that there's a possibility that someone like hitler could indeed be sitting in heaven right now...

[Romeyo07]

what's more sick...if he's really there, or that if he was a Christian (which I don't believe he was), that he's also forgiven.

Should someone not be allowed into heaven simply because their sin was made public? What if Charles Manson became a Christian? Should he not be allowed in because of the things he's done? If this was the case, then no one would go to heaven. When it comes to sin, it's black and white, no gray. All sin is at one level, with no sin greater or lesser than another. We've all done rotten things before, I don't care who you are or how good you think you are. That's the best part about being Christian, is knowing that you're accepted, regardless of your past.

[ShooterMcGavin]

^^^exactly, which in some ways is another contributing factor to me being on the fence. i'm very much a logical type person, i believe in right and wrong and logic tells me that one should be held responsible in every way for doing sick things (murder, rape, etc). to think that they could be excused is something that i can't quite come to grips with, at least not yet.

[Romeyo07]

Its not excused, it's forgiven. You forgive your child from stealing from the cookie jar, but he's still grounded for doing it. It works the same way with God. Though I am forgiven, I do pay the consequence of my actions.

[ShooterMcGavin]

correct, but in the christian religion, those consequences are knowing that u have failed god/jesus. to me, it's hard to believe that some so called christians who have spent their lives doing less than great things are actually "paying for those consequences" in an acceptable manner. however, i regress, as if god finds it acceptable, then it should be good enough for everyone else...

[Romeyo07]

God doesn't put that guilt in us, we put it there ourselves. That's not our pennance. In fact, God wants us to "move on" when we recognize that we've done wrong. When He forgives, He forgets.

I'm not too sure I get you on "to me, it's hard to believe that some so called christians who have spent their lives doing less than great things are actually "paying for those consequences" in an acceptable manner".

Sin in not acceptable, but forgivable. He'll never accept sin, just forgive it. As far as paying for our crimes, that's why we have gov't in place. God wants us to follow the laws of man (i.e. gov't law, etc.)

[ShooterMcGavin]

what i meant by that was, i don't think some have paid for it in our society, according to our laws, in a sufficient manner. not to mention there are ones out there who are able to slip through the net of the law, those who never truly pay for their sins even during the time which they are on earth.

[Romeyo07]

but how do we know that punishment hasn't been handed down to them? A job promotion passed up to someone else, paying a speeding ticket, etc...these are things we probably wont see but do happen. Some say its Karma, some call it just random, or it just might be divine punishment.

[ShooterMcGavin]

that's one way to look at it and i agree for the most part. but what about certain ppl in organized crime? crime/mafia bosses, drug kingpins, etc? i realize over time, many have been brought to "justice" or killed or overthrown or whatever, but certainly there have been many living comfortable extravagant lifestyles as well?

[Romeyo07]

This is true, but I would hardly consider fearing being caught or wacked on a daily basis living a good life. Again, we really don't know what sort of consequences people pay, rich or poor. Wealth means nothing to God, so one's status in society doesn't dictate God's approval. If that were true, he'd hate me :D

IMO, the hardness of their hearts has pushed God away, and they live thier lives with the possibility of losing it all. Some are luckier than others. The difference between them and us is that God, His Grace and Mercy, is with us all the time, and non existant with them. When I fall, He picks me up...when they do, their recovery is up to them.

[ShooterMcGavin]

i can see your point of view, although i'm not sure that i agree (being that i'm not a believer). :goodjob:

[Romeyo07]

What aren't you sure of? What I said or how it applies to you?

[Tasuki_Civic]

oooh, dumb retard? what'd you just graduate from the 3rd grade yesterday and copped those terms on your way out? please. i KNOW you didn't start this thread for one person that's why i fuckin posted trying to give you some insight you so desperately craved, if you didn't like it then just ignore it, why try to start some shit by mocking what i had to say? and just because i'm not believer doesn't mean i haven't been around religion for the better part of my life, being exposed to the teachings of the bible. how ignorant of you to think that just because one does not believe, one does not know.

oh and i belong in the whoreslounge? funny coming from you, one who seldom wanders away from the DICK and SHIT posts in the sex and nws sections. with that said, let me end on a verse for you: "let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
im not disregaurding you from not believing. lol please i wouldnt do that to anyone thats terrible to do.


i KNOW you didn't start this thread for one person that's why i fuckin posted trying to give you some insight you so desperately craved,

then what was the purpose of me stating who i was speaking to?? none.and thats your fault for reading it out of text. i didnt say it to be sarcastic or to mock you and be rude. you took it that way. I have nothing agaisnt you its you who has something against me because i talk about men the way you talk about women. Who Cares??!!! i simply asked you a question that i was unsure off you didnt have to snapped back and imply as if im stupid. that was you who lashed out 1st not me.

and leave your quotes to yourself your not teaching anyone aything by doing that.

[ShooterMcGavin]

im not disregaurding you from not believing. lol please i wouldnt do that to anyone thats terrible to do.



then what was the purpose of me stating who i was speaking to?? none.and thats your fault for reading it out of text. i didnt say it to be sarcastic or to mock you and be rude. you took it that way. I have nothing agaisnt you its you who has something against me because i talk about men the way you talk about women. Who Cares??!!! i simply asked you a question that i was unsure off you didnt have to snapped back and imply as if im stupid. that was you who lashed out 1st not me.

and leave your quotes to yourself your not teaching anyone aything by doing that.

look, u snapped first telling me u weren't even talkin to me, like i had no business replying to a public post in a public forum? whatever, suit urself if ignorance is ur thing :rolleyes:

[ShooterMcGavin]

What aren't you sure of? What I said or how it applies to you?

how it applies to me. i understood perfectly what you said.

[Tasuki_Civic]

geezz this is so sad i cant talk about something seriouse without someone being an idiot about stuff.



he Romeo i saved you to my yahoo so just except anytime

[Tasuki_Civic]

look, u snapped first telling me u weren't even talkin to me, like i had no business replying to a public post in a public forum? whatever, suit urself if ignorance is ur thing :rolleyes:

go back and read sweety ...you asked who i was talkin to. i told you. and then you want to take offence after you called me a dickstick or somethin. yeaaa sure ...okay

[Tasuki_Civic]

just leave it be id rather talk about the topic tthan sit here and argue about this stupid mess you misunderstood

[Romeyo07]

hey I added you too...I'm on from 7-5 everyday. Feel free to hit me up.

[Romeyo07]

how it applies to me. i understood perfectly what you said.

feel free to ask any questions (that is, if you want answers). I'll be more than happy to help clarify how what I said and what I believe applies to you.

[Tasuki_Civic]

hey romeo do it again cause i clicked the wrong button.

[ShooterMcGavin]

feel free to ask any questions (that is, if you want answers). I'll be more than happy to help clarify how what I said and what I believe applies to you.

preciate the offer man, always good to know/speak with someone who honestly believes what they believe and knows what they believe :goodjob:

[Romeyo07]

I'm on aim, yahoo and msn.

shoot I'll even buy lunch if need be.

[metalman]

sorry but you're wrong. If my last act is sin, I'm still forgiven and covered by His blood. No where in the bible does it state that, and I know you can't prove it.

s.

Ahh yes...you must subscribe to the false teaching of "once saved always saved"...thats fine by me but NOT Biblical.

Saul wasnt "covered by the blood" BECAUSE he obviously died UNREPENTED.
The reason one can know this is that if one truly REPENTs of sin, they wont end their life by killing themselves, which is a sin.
No unrepentant sinner will ever enter heaven. The Bible teaches that clearly...maybe you havent found that yet. ;)

"The soul that sinneth, it shall DIE......" (forever)

[metalman]

im not trying to be a smart ass so dont take it as that. but im not looking for someone to quote the bible. i would like your actually insite of it. those who quote books dont have a mind of their own. with messages from the bible you have to de-code them to even understand some of it.

If you ask a Biblical question from me, expect to get the Bible as part of the answer. ;)



i do understand all the things that you have to be true to your heart when you ask for forgiviness. but ok....hitler for example. you know what he had done. but yet lets say 2 weeks before he died he was true when he meant that he was sorry for the awful things he had done and yadda yadda yadda.........then someone kills him. WILL HE GO TO HEAVEN??


First, theres no evidence that Hitler ever repented for anything. Secondly. the evidence STRONGLY suggests he did not. Thirdly, NO ONE is able to say who is "right with God" except for God Himself.

As to your question, God takes no peasure in the destruction of the wicked unrepentant sinner. He will forgive anyone....even YOU, even ME.
Its odd how some (maybe not you) even use Gods infinte mercy "against" Him when they should be THANKFUL for it! Without it, NONE of US would exist.
People like Hitler are but one individual in the big picture of the problem when it comes to sin.



another example. i cannot remember who this killer was, but he apparantly killed over a dozen pple. but the day of his death which he was put in the chair. the pple who were the witnesses saw him pray and ask for forgiveness and the witnesses swore up and down even ( strong belief chirstians) that he went to heaven.

so whats the difference you go to heaven if you ask for forgivness a couple of days before you die? or you will go to heaven no matter what time as long as you ask for forgiviness before you die?

Those people would have no way of knowing whether this person was "right with God". The thing one must remember is that God judges on the INTENTIONS of the HEART...Not just what was said last. If ones INTENTION is to keep sinning as long as possible its safe to say they wont be saved. If they are TRULY sorry and repent before God in sincerity then they may be saved.....regardless of their sin.



i know i have like 5 questions in one but....is the purpose of life as a christian to live good and pray and always ask for forgivness jus so we can go to heaven? is living a punishment so we can show god that we are loyal and then when we show that we are ( though life) we go to heaven to be with god?


We are fortunate to even exist. God could have wiped out mankind after the first sin. Instead, He sent His Son to die in our stead and give EVERY human that WANTS to live, eternal life. To obtain that gift one must only REPENT, TURN FROM their sin, and acknowlege Christ as their Saviour. Christ explained that process to a man He met, He told him to be "born again"....that is to say, repent, turn from sin, and by the POWER OF GOD live a new life.

Our life on earth, the fruits of it, show each day whether we walk with God or not. God will make an utter end of sin. BUT, He wishes to save all that desire Him IF they repent. Our actions, our deeds, our intentions (heart) show whether we truly have that desire and prove to all the Universe that God is merciful in saving us, a bunch of wretched sinners.




and how can you actualy believe all the stories like lusapher(sorry cant spell it) the devil and god how they are against each other.why out of all things is he a snake? why not a snail or a bird? jus for that my grandmother hates snake anything!! because of the bible. and they are just as deadly as any other animal? alot of pple say " well thats just how it is" " god made it like that and thats what the book says" but these days pple dont believe everything that is written in a book. and bibbles are re-made every few years. How do you really know what Jesus has really done or said.

like that one guy that was on Oprah that wrote a fiction book and he swore up and down it was still a non-fiction book. pple had an outrage it was all over the news and cnn.

im not against christianity or any religion but alot ...and i mean alot of pple who are believe that any other religion is a fake and is not the true story....they even feel offensive when a person says they are catholic or muslim like they are beneath them.

but isnt there a famous quote " He who wins the war, writes the book"

Belief in the Word of God is something all must wrestle with. Many, if not most, do not believe in God or His Word. However, the majority consensus on any fact changes nothing with regard to that fact.

If one wants to know whether Gods Word is true one only needs to HONESTLY SEEK to know. I can tell you from my own experience...they WILL find out. ;) God desires that we seek Him so that He can reveal Himself to us personally in a way that reaches and touches us as individuals. Some here have testified that certain sinful addictions and habits they used to be plagued with they no longer struggle with. God has touched them in a personal way. He can do the same for ANYONE.

[ShooterMcGavin]

Ahh yes...you must subscribe to the false teaching of "once saved always saved"...thats fine by me but NOT Biblical.

Saul wasnt "covered by the blood" BECAUSE he obviously died UNREPENTED.
The reason one can know this is that if one truly REPENTs of sin, they wont end their life by killing themselves, which is a sin.
No unrepentant sinner will ever enter heaven. The Bible teaches that clearly...maybe you havent found that yet. ;)

"The soul that sinneth, it shall DIE......" (forever)

can't say i agree with u here, here's an excerpt taken from bible.com about suicide:


Do all those who kill themselves go to Hell?

Some people believe that all who commit suicide go immediately to Hell. However, the Bible never says if this is the case. The Bible is silent on this issue. God probably did not address it in black in white for a good reason. If we knew that we would still go to Heaven if we killed ourselves, there would probably be a lot more suicides taking place than there already are. However, if we knew that all who killed themselves were automatically banished to Hell, no matter what their situation, it may be too much for the grief-stricken family and friends to bear. Murder and suicide are not unpardonable sins. The only unforgivable sins are rejecting Christ (Mark 16:16) and blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

(Mark 3:28-29 KJV) Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

All other sins can be forgiven. However, anyone contemplating suicide may be in danger of going to Hell, as their relationship with the Lord is not intact at that point. Those who would consider suicide may have a severed relationship with Christ and therefore they would enter the real Hell--which is worse than the hellish feelings they are experiencing at the momen


doesn't look to me that it's written in written in stone anywhere about whether one goes to hell for sure by committing suicide.

[metalman]

can't say i agree with u here, here's an excerpt taken from bible.com about suicide:



doesn't look to me that it's written in written in stone anywhere about whether one goes to hell for sure by committing suicide.

Youre presuming one can ask in advance for forgiveness of a sin they are about to commit. Sorry friend, that isnt Biblical.
Perhaps if you study REPENTANCE instead of the specific sin you'll come to understand this. ;) If you are truly a repentant sinner your last act will not be a sinful one that takes your own life.

Your last act cannot be a sin, IF you expect to be saved. ;)

[metalman]

You are correct about any sin being forgivable except blaspeheming the Holy Spirit.

Another things to consider....to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to REFUSE to LISTEN to your concience, which is the voice of God within you.
If one commits suicide theyre not listening to their concience....or God. ;)

[efman]

You have been somewhat misinformed.

First, there are not "so many rules" in true Christianity. Some churches have added all numbers of man made rules to Gods religion, something Christ admonished His followers against.

Secondly, willful sin and repentance as one willful act gets one no where near heaven.
That is a nonsensical roman catholic notion that has "infected" many so-called christain churches.

Its true that any sin can be forgiven, except one, BUT no one will fool the only perfect Judge when it comes to willful sin and insincere phony repentance.

That being said, it is also true that a murderer or similar wicked person can repent and be forgiven but that act MUST be genuine, not some plan to sneak it in before death. Thats neither logical or Biblical.

True repentance involves more then saying "I am sorry"

God calls for mankind to repent AND turn from ALL sin....immediately.

"Choose ye THIS DAY whom ye will serve...."

"Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live."

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."


"Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God..."
i like what you said ! its more than forgivng its aknowledgeing that he sent his only son to die on the cross for you, sorry for bad spelling

[BTEC]

i could post alot in here but im not on here enough to defend my points so just yeah. this is gonna turn out to be a long thread and alot of ppl are gonna be mad.

[ShooterMcGavin]

here's another excerpt i found from someone asking a question, i don't care so much what they're saying other than the example used:


From my studies, the only thing that would send us to Hell would be to deny Jesus as our Savior. But that even in believing Jesus as our Savior does not mean we will be perfect even in death or even strong in life no matter how hard we want to we strong in life.

I have wondered about this because I know of a Christian who loved Jesus with all her heart and suffered from co-dependency in a dysfunctional home. She suffered for so long and asked Jesus so carry her into heaven to live with Him as she sliced her wrists 3 1/2 inches on one wrist, 3 inches on the other wrist and 4 inches in the upper thigh. She wrote that her Hell was on earth and that she couldn't stand one more day of it. She wrote that she prayed to God, as she performed her murder on herself, that He would forgive her for this sin as He had forgiven her of the others she had done in the past. She stated that the Bible says that He will not allow one to stand more than one can bear and that He is our strength. She stated that she wasn't strong--knowing the Lord is strong but not her and asked to be carried to heaven to live with Him from that moment on.

what do u think about this?

[metalman]

here's another excerpt i found from someone asking a question, i don't care so much what they're saying other than the example used:



what do u think about this?

I think its wishful dreams and nonsense. Sorry.

As I said, study repentance. Therin lies your answer.

The spirit of true repentance doesnt lead one to ignore God and take ones own life. If one is truly repentant and truly believes in God they will wait on Him to deliver them from whatever their circumstances. Suicide will never be an option! ;)

[metalman]

To be absolutely blunt, suicide is murder of ones self. It also demonstrates that the committer of such an act has no faith, is unbeliving and is fearful.
The Bible is quite clear about the fate of those who have no faith in God and who do not REPENT, TURN AWAY FROM and CEASE from those sinful acts.....

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Rev 21:8

[Romeyo07]

Ahh yes...you must subscribe to the false teaching of "once saved always saved"...thats fine by me but NOT Biblical.

Saul wasnt "covered by the blood" BECAUSE he obviously died UNREPENTED.
The reason one can know this is that if one truly REPENTs of sin, they wont end their life by killing themselves, which is a sin.
No unrepentant sinner will ever enter heaven. The Bible teaches that clearly...maybe you havent found that yet. ;)

"The soul that sinneth, it shall DIE......" (forever)

I repented when I accepted Jesus, and from that moment I am covered by his blood. I do not have to repent and confess that Jesus is my Lord on a daily basis. If you can lose your salvation, then his death was in vain. He was the perfect sacrifice, which only needed to happen once. Would he have to die again? His death is why its no longer necessary to make sacrifices to cover our sins. If the case is that you must repent after every sin, then what is to happen to those faithful Christians that sin not knowing? Their dedication to Christ meant nothing because they sinned. How would one then know for sure they're going to heaven if they're constantly worried they did something and now they can't go.

It's not in God's nature to have us worry about what he has give to us as a gift. To have some chance we can lose it only causes confusion and uncertanty, two traits that are not of God's nature.

I mentioned before about if you truely accepted Jesus, then suicide isn't something you'd concider. The doctrine of losing salvation is not biblical. Not once does it mention it in the bible. The bible mentions holding onto it, but not once does it say you'll lose it.

Salvation is trusting or believing in, by faith, that Jesus Christ paid for your sins with His blood on the cross of Calvary.

"He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

" NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." Titus 3:5

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

. . . him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT." John 6:37

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand" John 10:28-29b

Sorry man, you're wrong on this, and I can continue to quote scripture that backs it up. Point to me where it says in the bible where I'll lose it.

[Romeyo07]

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Rev 21:8

All of these people are redeemable. He speaks of those that have no accepted Jesus. These are examples of those types of people who refused to know him.

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

[ShooterMcGavin]

:stupid:

[metalman]

All of these people are redeemable. He speaks of those that have no accepted Jesus. These are examples of those types of people who refused to know him.

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

Yes they are redeemable....but that requires REPENTANCE. ;)

[Xan]

I repented when I accepted Jesus, and from that moment I am covered by his blood. I do not have to repent and confess that Jesus is my Lord on a daily basis. If you can lose your salvation, then his death was in vain. He was the perfect sacrifice, which only needed to happen once. Would he have to die again? His death is why its no longer necessary to make sacrifices to cover our sins. If the case is that you must repent after every sin, then what is to happen to those faithful Christians that sin not knowing? Their dedication to Christ meant nothing because they sinned. How would one then know for sure they're going to heaven if they're constantly worried they did something and now they can't go.

It's not in God's nature to have us worry about what he has give to us as a gift. To have some chance we can lose it only causes confusion and uncertanty, two traits that are not of God's nature.

I mentioned before about if you truely accepted Jesus, then suicide isn't something you'd concider. The doctrine of losing salvation is not biblical. Not once does it mention it in the bible. The bible mentions holding onto it, but not once does it say you'll lose it.

Salvation is trusting or believing in, by faith, that Jesus Christ paid for your sins with His blood on the cross of Calvary.

"He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

" NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." Titus 3:5

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

. . . him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT." John 6:37

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand" John 10:28-29b

Sorry man, you're wrong on this, and I can continue to quote scripture that backs it up. Point to me where it says in the bible where I'll lose it.

You are meant to give up a life of sin when you accept Jesus as the saviour and God and all that stuff. It's not a "whew. Glad that's over with. Lets get drunk!" affair. The Bible lays out the cardinal sins fairly clearly. I don't see how someone could sin without knowing it. You'd have to have a twisted conscience for that.

[metalman]

I repented when I accepted Jesus, and from that moment I am covered by his blood. I do not have to repent and confess that Jesus is my Lord on a daily basis. If you can lose your salvation, then his death was in vain. He was the perfect sacrifice, which only needed to happen once. Would he have to die again? His death is why its no longer necessary to make sacrifices to cover our sins. If the case is that you must repent after every sin, then what is to happen to those faithful Christians that sin not knowing? Their dedication to Christ meant nothing because they sinned. How would one then know for sure they're going to heaven if they're constantly worried they did something and now they can't go.

It's not in God's nature to have us worry about what he has give to us as a gift. To have some chance we can lose it only causes confusion and uncertanty, two traits that are not of God's nature.

I mentioned before about if you truely accepted Jesus, then suicide isn't something you'd concider. The doctrine of losing salvation is not biblical. Not once does it mention it in the bible. The bible mentions holding onto it, but not once does it say you'll lose it.

Salvation is trusting or believing in, by faith, that Jesus Christ paid for your sins with His blood on the cross of Calvary.

"He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

" NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." Titus 3:5

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

. . . him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT." John 6:37

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand" John 10:28-29b

Sorry man, you're wrong on this, and I can continue to quote scripture that backs it up. Point to me where it says in the bible where I'll lose it.


Youre only half right. ;)
I am sure you can quote Scripture but your picture is incomplete. Theres more!

Youre primarily looking at one side of the picture...justfication...."just if I had never sinned".
Also, you have completely left out "sanctifcation", that being the daily walk and SUBMITTAL of ONEs OWN WILL to Christ.

I will point you to one example to begin with.....King Saul.
If you study carefully you will see that Saul "got saved"...then walked with God and even prophesied under Gods influence, but at the end Saul lost his faith in God, consulted witches/necromancers, had a coversation with Satan who impersonated Samuel the prophet....then Saul, in despair, showing NO faith in God, being fearful, disobeyed God and murdered himself on his own sword.

My friend, the notion that once "saved" you can never be lost is NOT Biblical....its commonly taught in MANY churches, using a one sided, incomplete view of Scripture, similar to what you have posted here.
The baptist church is famous for this non Biblical doctrine.

Fact is NO ONE is truly "saved" until Christ returns. Until then you/we are BEING SAVED. Can we have confidence? Yes. BUT that confidence must be in Christ.
Its like this...if you went overboard from a ship in the middle of the sea wearing only your clothes, you would die in a matter of time, no question.
If a boat came by & threw you a rope would you then be saved??? No.
Not until you were back on the shore would you be completely saved. But as long as you held on to the rope you would be "safe" from death and BEING saved.

The only safety for a Christian is the daily death to ones self. Paul said "I die daily.." meaning setting aside his own will will to follow the will of Christ. Its not a matter of "worry" as you put it, its a matter of choice...daily choice.

If anyone is truly submitted to Christ and has given their will over to Him, they will not sin against God. ;) Its ONLY when mankind follows his own will that he commits sin that will condemn him.

Living a life with Christ is a "war"...the Bible indicates this clearly. Paul said near the end of his life, "I have fought a good fight...."

War against what? Fought against whom?

The Bible says...Fight the good fight of faith!

Put on the whole armour of God - Eph 6:11

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God - Eph 6:13

The Bible identifies that "armour", each piece. Study that. ;)


Jesus said "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation." Matthew 26:41
Why watch or pray or "worry" about temptation if it can't hurt you?? ;)

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. - 1 Thessalonians 5:6

Heres why.....
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. 1 Peter 5:8.

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might." Ephesians 6:10

Jesus said, "Without me ye can do nothing. John 15:5
Was he lying??? I think not!

Fact is, the Bible says we can have "the mind of Christ"...anyone with the mind of Christ, that is to say that is doing HIS will will NOT be found to be murdering, fearful, etc etc Those that continue in those things will be rewarded with death, not eternal life.


There shall in no wise enter into it (heaven) any thing that defileth." Revelation 21:27

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, . . . nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards . . . shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." Matthew 5:8

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:12.

Jesus put it this way....

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

One must abide in Christ which involves more then accepting Him but ACTING upon that acceptance...."Faith without works is dead", and the "works" in question here is the daily death to self. ;)

Can you be a believer and be "saved" for while, then lost? Jesus said so....

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." Luke 8:12, 13

When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it

When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby."

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey?"
"He that doeth righteousness is righteous . . . He that committeth sin is of the devil." 1 John 3:7, 8.

"If after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire" 2 Peter 2:20-22

The fact is one can be "saved" and then become "lost" again.
One can, like King Saul, let go of the rope (Christ) any time one chooses to do so. If we hold on to Christ, he hold on to us...but he doesnt, and will not hold us against our will.

The fact is that if one is truly "abiding in Christ", connected TO Him like a branch to a vine as He said, has the "mind of Christ" and is putting aside his own will to allow the will of God to reign in his life, he will not commit a sin that ends his own life. Period. ;)

The sinless life of Jesus and sacrifice upon the cross did more then pay the penalty, it showed us how we can live, Christ provided a way out of living in sin....by the POWER of God.


Theres alot more...my advice to you is put aside the incomplete view you've been taught & keep studying! ;)

[metalman]

You are meant to give up a life of sin when you accept Jesus as the saviour and God and all that stuff.

Wow!
You are so correct! Thats precisely what the Bible teaches...in a nutshell.
Thank you.

[Romeyo07]

Yes they are redeemable....but that requires REPENTANCE. ;)

Right, at first...once they repent and accept Jesus, they no longer fall under the category of non believers.

[metalman]

Right, at first...once they repent and accept Jesus, they no longer fall under the category of non believers.

And if they do that they WILL NOT CONTINUE in their SIN. ;)
They will seek Christs WILL and allow HIM to rule their life.

Even "believers" can be lost!!!....when they let go of God and STOP letting Christ's will reign in their life.

[Romeyo07]

I was raised to believe that you can lose your salvation. After being "saved" and then going "lost" does not mean you are forgotten. All that you mentioned above regard turn away from what Jesus calls us to do, but doesn't say anything about rejecting us after we have accepted him. He knows we will fall, and fail, time and time again. At those moments, are you saying that we're not saved? I can't name one Christian that dosen't struggle with staying faithful to Jesus or what he's called to be. I myself fight the good fight everyday, but don't always win. I'm very much dedicated to God, but because I sin doesn't make me condemned, it makes me human. God understands this. If there's one person on this earth that doesn't sin after accepting Jesus, may the entire earth bow down before this person and praise him. He'd be perfect, which is impossible.

The biggest battle we fight is within, and I can guarantee you will lose a few times. Again, as mentioned before, if I do lose a fight within myself, am I then condemned? Does that make me a bad Christian? Will Jesus cast me away? No. I am forever covered by his blood and forgiven. Once I accept Jesus, God no longer sees my sins, but the blood of Jesus.

This does not give me all the right to live a sinful life, but a reason to be grateful. I don't have the desire to do the things I once did, which is evidence of God working in my life. I choose to follow Jesus, but we're bound by our flesh, and I know for sure we will sin.

My arguement is not one sided, and trust me when I say that I know where you're coming from. Growing up I've spent all my youth wondering if I was saved and only condemning myself because I made mistakes. Especially in my youth, I was full of fear because I was so scared to sin, and if I did sin, will I be separated from God?

The bible gives you a clear answer on how to become saved (roman road). It doesn't give you an absolute answer on how to lose it. Why should something so important then be left to interpretation rather than a definitive answer? This arguement goes beyond scripture into really understanding God's nature.

[metalman]

I was raised to believe that you can lose your salvation. After being "saved" and then going "lost" does not mean you are forgotten. All that you mentioned above regard turn away from what Jesus calls us to do, but doesn't say anything about rejecting us after we have accepted him. He knows we will fall, and fail, time and time again. At those moments, are you saying that we're not saved?


I am not saying anything...I am only pointing you to what God says. ;)

Thats the thing that churches with this incomplete view of salvation end up with...the continuous repetition of sin-repent, sin-repent, sin-repent etc. To make up for this they then teach a false gospel of "once saved-always saved" which the Bible CLEARLY does NOT teach. Their "version" of the gospel ROBS it of the POWER. The Bible clearly teaches that one not NEED to continue in sin, it teaches overcoming sin, BY FAITH IN CHRIST, BY HIS POWER alone, not by ones own strength.

See Romans 6. ;)




The biggest battle we fight is within, and I can guarantee you will lose a few times. Again, as mentioned before, if I do lose a fight within myself, am I then condemned? Does that make me a bad Christian? Will Jesus cast me away? No. I am forever covered by his blood and forgiven. Once I accept Jesus, God no longer sees my sins, but the blood of Jesus.

Yes, and provision has been made for that HOWEVER, the gospel truth ISNT to continue in your sin, its to overcome! Need the texts??? ;)


This does not give me all the right to live a sinful life, but a reason to be grateful. I don't have the desire to do the things I once did, which is evidence of God working in my life.

Exactly! If you have truly accepted Christ, IF you truly let His will be yours, and ask Him to make that happen by His power, HE WILL!! You only have to SUBMIT. Therin lies the "battle", the "war"...its a war with self. The devil would like all to rely on themselves that way he gets the "victory" over that individual.
As you have indicated, you have already seen evidence of this in your life.
But theres more...Gods power isnt weak or incapable....its complete!
As you say, you have no "right" to keep sinning....if you are its beacause you didnt allow Gods will to reign supreme in that instance. Are you then condemned to keep repeating that???? NO! God has the power, He has promised that power to ALL who DESIRE it, He will give it you...do you BELIIEVE that? Do you act upon that belief?? IF you do you cannot be "plucked out of Gods hand" to commit that sin over and over again.




The bible gives you a clear answer on how to become saved (roman road). It doesn't give you an absolute answer on how to lose it. Why should something so important then be left to interpretation rather than a definitive answer? This arguement goes beyond scripture into really understanding God's nature.

Here is where your reasoning falls flat. The Bible DOES tell absolutely how to one can lose their salvation. I have already shared a number of verses which are quite clear....and there is more.

You first implied that suicide can be forgiven. I have shown by Gods Word how that is impossible. One who is living for God and in harmony with His will and has true and complete trust in Him would NEVER kill themselves...regardless of their circumstances. To do so demonstrates they dont TRULY trust God or BELIEVE Him or have submitted to His will. That is the original topic in this thread.

You also asked for verses that show a person can be saved and then become lost. I have given you some. Theyre in there! Dont take my word for it...study for yourself. If you HONESTLY, with open mind, humbly seek Gods will and His truth, HE will show it to you. I know this beyond any shadow of any doubt. ;)

On a more personal note, there is no reason to "fear" if you submit to Christ...totally, holding nothing back, honestly seeking His will, putting all earthly notions aside, all conventional wisdom aside, relying totally on Him.
Its when we seek our own will within His word that we get confused. Any person living up to the light given to them, and is doing so BY HIS gauranteed power has nothing to fear. If you know you fall short somewhere, ask Him for the victory, He will give it to you if youre honest in heart. ;)

[Romeyo07]

You did quote verses that upon reading one could make the assumptions that you've made. However, leave out the assumption and look for it said in the bible, plain as day. What I'm trying to say is that repeatedly, the bible says "to get saved, do this". It does not say "you will lose your salvation if you do this".

IMO, the verses you quoted do not specifically speak of salvation, and are left to interpretation, which can then be twisted (not necessarily in a bad way) to what one may believe, either my p.o.v. or yours. My side says that the condemnation/falling away/death and punishment mentioned (or any form thereof) is not of an eternal basis but a physical and spiritual death. Before I knew Christ I was dead, but now I'm alive.

Let me also add/clarify that what I believe applies to those who choose to follow Christ and try to be Christians. IMO, if you've truely accepted Jesus, there is no condemnation for you, no matter how often you mess up.

I'll fall back on it not being in God's nature not to leave such an important topic left unclear and undefinitive, at least not as clear as the way to salvation is clearly defined. I suffered for years believing I could lose my salvation for any little thing, and this topic strikes home to me. I know your belief leaves room for doubt in people, when we should be assured of our salvation. I'm not knocking you, but take a look at my side of the story.

[metalman]

You did quote verses that upon reading one could make the assumptions that you've made. However, leave out the assumption and look for it said in the bible, plain as day. What I'm trying to say is that repeatedly, the bible says "to get saved, do this". It does not say "you will lose your salvation if you do this".


Sorry friend, you clearly are mislead or confused by your upbringing if you can honestly say this with a straight face. That point is not even questionable.

When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it

WHEN YOU TRUST YOUR OWN SENSE OF RIGHT DOING INSTEAD OF DOING THE WILL OF GOD HE HAS REVEALED, YOU COMMIT SIN AND WILL DIE.

When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby."

WHEN YOU TURN AWAY FROM RIGHTEOUSNESS, (KEEPING GODS WORD/COMMANDMENTS) YOU COMMIT SIN AND WILL DIE.

"If after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire" 2 Peter 2:20-22

IF AFTER YOU HAVE COME TO KNOW CHRIST AND HAVE ESCAPED THE POWER SIN IN YOUR LIFE THROUGH CHRIST, AND THEN YOU BECOME ENTANGLED IN SIN AGAIN, YOU WILL DIE.

Why? Because to truly know Christ and be given over to Him is to live a new life...not abandon that new life.

The soul that sinneth it shall DIE! NOT live in heaven eternally.

What is sin??????? Sin is transgression of Gods law/word. The Bible so bluntly plain about that. Need the texts?????????

Seriously dude, if you think the Bible doesnt tell how a man can be lost you are seriously mistaken!!



IMO, the verses you quoted do not specifically speak of salvation, and are left to interpretation, which can then be twisted (not necessarily in a bad way) to what one may believe, either my p.o.v. or yours.

There is only ONE point of view that matters....GODS. You and I are either in harmony with it or not. The Bible is not to be interpreted...this false notion is very prevealant...especially in southern baptist teachings.
Fact is the truth is what it is...its up to US to SEEK it...there is no room for OUR interpretation. This view you have represented is invariably what all people who believe in the "half gospel" truth end up falling back on.

Fact is that the ONLY safety is in the Word of God. Jesus said that VERY plainly. Our understanding is either in harmony with Him or not.




Let me also add/clarify that what I believe applies to those who choose to follow Christ and try to be Christians. IMO, if you've truely accepted Jesus, there is no condemnation for you, no matter how often you mess up.

I understand that is YOUR belief....its just contrary to plain Scripture.
Read above!!!! The Bible is very plain on that subject.




I'll fall back on it not being in God's nature not to leave such an important topic left unclear and undefinitive, at least not as clear as the way to salvation is clearly defined. I suffered for years believing I could lose my salvation for any little thing, and this topic strikes home to me. I know your belief leaves room for doubt in people, when we should be assured of our salvation. I'm not knocking you, but take a look at my side of the story.

Oh I have looked very closely at "your side" of the story. Long ago I decided to forget all that nonsense, set it all aside and HONESTLY seek God's Word to know some answers to those same questions. The answers were are all right there...in the Word, where God said they would be...and were there the whole time.
God will show you if you want Him to.

Look, don't let your "troubles" and "suffering" lead you to settling for a "powerless" gospel belief that has no basis in Scripture. If you think the Bible "leaves doubt" in people then you don't at all understand what it says.
Again...see Romans 6 for starters!
One can be confident in Gods grace and mercy. He freely gives it to ALL that seek it. His grace and mercy endureth forever...to those who honestly seek it with all their hearts. Dont settle for less. ;)

[Romeyo07]

The truth lies in the word, yes, however, when I read what you quote I do not see it the way you are describing. That is your interpretation of the scripture. You highlight "death" and "he shall die", but which death are you talking about? In what instance of life does this apply to? My physical death? The death of the relationship between myself and Christ? My eternal death? The scriptures do not say it, which is why I continue to hold my ground on what I'm saying.

This is why there are so many denominations, because of the difference in opinion on what they're trying to say in the bible. My beliefs do not come from what was preached about on Sunday, I've been into my bible since I was a child. I've done my studying and my own research. The southern baptist convention has nothing to do with me or my beliefs.

The issue lies in the difference in what I understood of the scriptures and what you understand of it.

So tell me this then, since you are a believer, do you sin? If so, do you immediately repent? Are you currently doing something that you think is ok but its actually wrong? Ever had a bad thought? Ever stare at a girl a little too long? If in that moment the church is raptured, do you stay behind because you didn't say "sorry God" in time? That's rediculous. How can I have confidence in being saved if for every little thing I'm losing my salvation? That's where my problem lies.

I'll have to dig into my study bible tonight about this.

[metalman]

The truth lies in the word, yes, however, when I read what you quote I do not see it the way you are describing. That is your interpretation of the scripture. You highlight "death" and "he shall die", but which death are you talking about? In what instance of life does this apply to? My physical death? The death of the relationship between myself and Christ? My eternal death? The scriptures do not say it, which is why I continue to hold my ground on what I'm saying.


Oh they speak to this plainly. I clearly understand you do not see it. ;)




I'll have to dig into my study bible tonight about this.

Smartest thing youve said yet. Keep in mind, if you honestly seek the truth you will find it. If you seek to prove your notion of truth, or prove your own ideas, theres no telling what you'll "find". ;)

[metalman]

So tell me this then, since you are a believer, do you sin? If so, do you immediately repent? Are you currently doing something that you think is ok but its actually wrong? Ever had a bad thought? Ever stare at a girl a little too long?

I will answer you with the Bible...

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Pride goeth before a fall.

Yet the Bible also says this......

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Heres the thing...if you are walking with God completely submitted to His will you will not keep on doing the same sin over and over and over. To do so makes you a liar and sells God short.

God is willing to provide power to ANYONE to OVERCOME sin.
The thing is, the more a true Christian overcomes sin the more they realize they have more to overcome. As you gain the victory over one thing God will show you more you yet need the victory over. The true Christian will never get to a point on this earth where they will say that they have no sin or are not sinning because to do that is itself a sin. If nothing else that would be pride and remember what happens after pride? Yep...a fall.

Furthermore a true Christian is likely to be aware due to their close connection with Christ that they may have unrealized sins that they yet need to address. ;) A true Christian will ALWAYS only rely on Gods mercy and power and GIVE GOD credit for anything good in his/her life, never taking any credit to themselves or boasting of being sinless.






If in that moment the church is raptured...etc

Please...lets address one non Biblical teaching at a time. Rapture is not a Biblical teaching. Its a latin word....that should tell the discerning student of its origin. ;)

[metalman]

One more thing Romeyo07...I have not meant to imply in any way that youre lost and going to hell because of your position, or anything of that sort. So, please dont read that into this discussion okay? :)

[Romeyo07]

God is willing to provide power to ANYONE to OVERCOME sin.
The thing is, the more a true Christian overcomes sin the more they realize they have more to overcome. As you gain the victory over one thing God will show you more you yet need the victory over. The true Christian will never get to a point on this earth where they will say that they have no sin or are not sinning because to do that is itself a sin. If nothing else that would be pride and remember what happens after pride? Yep...a fall.

This being said, how would one ever gain salvation if God continues to find sin in us? Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you saying if you sin you're pulling yourself away from God and therefore unsaved? If at every moment that I sin I become unsaved, what is the purpose of Jesus dying for us? Was his death not enough to cover the sin that I have done? I'm still not getting a clear answer on this from you. Excuse my ignorance if I sound redunant, I just don't get your side.



Please...lets address one non Biblical teaching at a time. Rapture is not a Biblical teaching. Its a latin word....that should tell the discerning student of its origin. ;)

Rapture" comes from the words "caught up" in I Thessalonians 4:17. In the Greek the word is harpazo - "to seize upon by force", "to snatch up." The Latin translators used the word rapturo. Some people claim that "rapture" is not a Biblical term. This is untrue, unless they want to say that "God" and "Jesus" are not Biblical Terms. Almost all words in our English Bible are translations of Greek or Hebrew expressions, and are, therefore, not in the Bible in the form we know them. "God" is a proper and meaningful translation of certain words in the original languages, and "Jesus" is a good translation for us of His name (Yeshua, "Joshua," "The Lord Saves," in Hebrew). In the same way, the English word "rapture" which means "to be caught up" is an excellent translation for the Greek harpazo.

this is a whole different thread though

[metalman]

This being said, how would one ever gain salvation if God continues to find sin in us? Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you saying if you sin you're pulling yourself away from God and therefore unsaved? If at every moment that I sin I become unsaved, what is the purpose of Jesus dying for us? Was his death not enough to cover the sin that I have done? I'm still not getting a clear answer on this from you. Excuse my ignorance if I sound redunant, I just don't get your side.


Its not "my side"...its the Bible. ;)

Also I see you don't get it...and I don't blame you one bit...most people don't get it. Jesus said ".. strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

To continue living in sin, expecting to be saved is a presumption, not Biblical truth. I am not saying willful sinning "pulls you away" (seperates) from God...the Bible does.

Sin is trangression of Gods law/Word.
More then that the Bible defines sin as "to know good and do it not"
Its two things that make up sin in this context...knowlege and action.
The Christian will rely totally on God, giving himself over to Gods will.
He wont be purposefully and intentionally doing that which he knows is wrong....IF he submits his will to Christ. Thats why many, if not most of the Biblical promises of eternal life start with the word IF. ;)

examples....

"IF we walk in the light . . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7.

(IF WE DONT WALK IN THE LIGHT He gives us.......he wont!!)

"IF that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." 1 John 2:24.

"IF any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." Hebrews 10:38.

"IF a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch." John 15:6.

"IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." John 8:51.

"IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Romans 11:22.

"IF ye do these things, ye shall never fall." 2 Peter 1:10.

"For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end." Hebrews 3:14.

"IF we endure, we shall also reign with him: IF we deny him, he also will deny us." 2 Timothy 2:12 (RSV).

"IF we sin willfully . . . there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26.

"IF any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." 1 John 2:15.

"Ye are my friends, IF ye do whatsoever I command you." John 15:14.

"IF ye live after the flesh, ye shall die." Romans 8:13.



Will there still be "imperfections" in his life? Yes. But God will reveal those in His own time. Thats why the Christian will never say he commits no sin.
He will remain open to whatever God may have in store for him.

Walking "perfect" with Christ is "walking in the light given" meaning living up to what you know so far....BY GODS POWER, not your own. Not knowing something yet won't keep one out of heaven.

Jesus DIED so that we don't have to.....IF.....we repent, turn from sin etc!!

Jesus LIVED to show us how.....IF......we submit completely to God!!

God will provide that same power to YOU and I.....IF we SEEK it honestly.

[metalman]

Once "saved" always "saved"??????????????????????????????
Impossible for a believer to become lost again?????????????????

What else does the Bible teach in addition to the IF's spoken of above.......

Paul recognized the Biblical possibility of being cast out of God's presence in the end unless he curbed the fleshly propensities to sin.
He said…, ". . . lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." 1 Corinthians 9:27.

The word Paul used - castaway - is very interesting. It is the Greek word "adokimos," which is translated "reprobate" in other places. In fact, 2 Cor 13:5 declares that Jesus Christ cannot dwell in the heart that is reprobate (adokimos). Titus 1:16 speaks of the abominable and disobedient who are "unto every good work reprobate (adokimos)."

Obviously Paul had nothing else in mind but that he could be lost IF he allowed sin to recapture his life


Paul also spoke of the possibility of born-again believers suffering damnation because they receive the Lord's Supper unworthily. "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself." 1 Corinthians 11:29.

No one would deny that these people were committed Christians partaking of the Biblical symbols of their redemption. Could they fall into damnation and be lost? The Bible says they could.
What damnation? The same Greek word (krima) is found in 1 Timothy 5:12. "Having damnation (krima) because they have cast off their first faith."
Hmmm… believers CAN "cast off their first faith" and go into final damnation. Makes perfect sense in light of the rest of Scripture.


Jesus said, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." John 6:53.

What LIFE was He talking about? In verse 63 He explained, "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
Unless the Christian lives by the Word of God, he cannot continue to partake of the spiritual life derived from Christ.

Consider this...

“Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. . . . Now the just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." Heb 10 Verses 35 to 39.

Now how could anybody state any more clearly the fact that one's eternal salvation is conditional on his remaining steadfast to the very end? Unless there were a possibility that one might cast away his confidence, that he might draw back unto perdition, why would the Bible give such a warning????

Now heres a clear Scripture....

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

There it is in plain Scripture…IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THOSE WHO WERE ONCE “SAVED” and WHO HAVE FALLEN BACK INTO SIN TO BE RENEWED (“SAVED”) BY REPENTANCE AS LONG AS THEY CONTINUE TO COMMIT WILLFUL SIN….

It would be just about impossible to describe more perfectly a person who had been born again but who later rebelled against God and rejected Christ and rejected the Holy Spirit.
That person has placed himself out of God's reach by his own actions.
Therefore, there is no possibility that such a man can be saved as long as he continues to crucify Christ by his disobedience.

Hmm....sounds just like King Saul to me. ;)

Saul was a sinner like all of us.
Saul listened to God.
He accepted Christ, became "saved".
Saul became the "Lords annointed"
Saul became King Saul.
Saul was given the gift of prophecy.
Saul was a prophet of God.
Saul returned to sin and disobedience of Gods law/word.
Saul consulted witches/satan
Saul was unable to hear God by his own action.
Saul commited murder ending His own life.

The Scripture is quite clear...mans invention of "once saved always saved" doesnt fly when examined in the light of the Word. ;)

[Xan]

Furthermore a true Christian is likely to be aware due to their close connection with Christ that they may have unrealized sins that they yet need to address. ;) A true Christian will ALWAYS only rely on Gods mercy and power and GIVE GOD credit for anything good in his/her life, never taking any credit to themselves or boasting of being sinless.



I understand that God is deserving of credit when "good" things happen for his followers. Who deserves credit for the bad stuff?

[ShooterMcGavin]

damn this shit got thick...

[Romeyo07]

I'm not saying a believer can never become lost again. If someone chooses to turn their back to Him, then that's a different story. That is what these scriptures are targeting, those who not just make a mistake and fall into some sin, but those who have given up their cross and decide to continue to follow their flesh.

My arguement of salvation applies to those who are true believers who are not turning their back to Christ, but still struggle (which no one can deny happens). Not to say what you posted was unnecessary, but maybe I wasn't clear on my arguement. I completely agree with what you posted. If you turn your back to him, all that you mentioned should apply.

Saul turned his back to God, which explains everything. I should not be concered with losing my salvation, even through my struggles, if I always turn to Christ.

[biblethumper]

Romey you are great!

[metalman]

I understand that God is deserving of credit when "good" things happen for his followers. Who deserves credit for the bad stuff?

Who do you think? ;)

If you CHOOSE a course of action that leads to negative results, who is to blame? If you cheat on your spouse, get busted, have to go to court, lose custody of your children etc etc...whos fault is that? YOURS!

Many things happen because of what people CHOOSE.

Some "negative" or "bad" things that happen are nothing more then the result of sin. Sin causes death and destruction...of human beings, environments, etc etc.

Most things that are considered "acts of god" are not...they are results of sin.

[metalman]

I'm not saying a believer can never become lost again. If someone chooses to turn their back to Him, then that's a different story.

Nice doubletalk. :rolleyes:
The Bible says CLEARLY a believer can become lost again. Saul did just that. Perhaps its not something youve understood or been taught and you dont yet fully accept it... thats fine. Thats your choice. ;)




Saul turned his back to God, which explains everything. I should not be concered with losing my salvation, even through my struggles, if I always turn to Christ.

I never said you should be "concerned with losing your salvation"....I said that God has provided a way out of sin. Everyone struggles...primarily with giving up DOING THEIR OWN WILL.

The Bible teaches that people continuing in willful sin will not be saved.
It doesnt teach that God abandons those who "struggle". On the contrary, it teaches that God is there and HE will do all the work IF you let Him, IF you SEEK Him, IF you follow His Word, IF you submit your will to Him.

IF you truly turn to Christ you wont keep on sinning the same sins over and over and over and over....its just a matter of that IF.

Thats the complete gospel...as opposed to the common false version taught in many churches that says in essense...just keep sinning and don't worry...because Jesus died for you. Jesus also LIVED for you and will live IN you.

[Xan]

Who do you think? ;)

If you CHOOSE a course of action that leads to negative results, who is to blame? If you cheat on your spouse, get busted, have to go to court, lose custody of your children etc etc...whos fault is that? YOURS!

Many things happen because of what people CHOOSE.

Some "negative" or "bad" things that happen are nothing more then the result of sin. Sin causes death and destruction...of human beings, environments, etc etc.

Most things that are considered "acts of god" are not...they are results of sin.

So who would the blame for the 04 tsunami fall onto? whose to blame if lightning strikes your house? Whose to blame if you slip and fall down a flight of stairs and break both legs? I'm not going to give anything caused by another person because that's "sin effecting the environment." Where does the environment alone effecting you fall under?

[metalman]

Sin = decay
God said everything would die/decay if sin was committed....it was...so there you go.
Our entire environment is out of wack causing all manner of earthly problems.

And...I have already given the answer to your questions. ;)

To be even more specific, satan is the prince of this world...he seeks to devour humans and destroy them...he causes all manner of destruction.
Like I said at the very beginning....WHO do you think causes evil things??

[Xan]

Sin = decay
God said everything would die/decay if sin was committed....it was...so there you go.
Our entire environment is out of wack causing all manner of earthly problems.

And...I have already given the answer to your questions. ;)

To be even more specific, satan is the prince of this world...he seeks to devour humans and destroy them...he causes all manner of destruction.
Like I said at the very beginning....WHO do you think causes evil things??

I understand your meaning. However, I don't see how an act of nature can be defined as "good" or "evil." Earthquakes, tsunamis, meteor impacts: All of these have been occuring since before the time of man. Am I to believe it is Satan causing these natural phenomena to happen?

[Romeyo07]

Nice doubletalk. :rolleyes:
The Bible says CLEARLY a believer can become lost again. Saul did just that. Perhaps its not something youve understood or been taught and you dont yet fully accept it... thats fine. Thats your choice. ;)

Could have sworn I just agreed with you before you posted. Also, re-read the part where I said I didn't make myself clear in the beginning. I understand it and accept it, I just think you were thinking I was saying something else.



I never said you should be "concerned with losing your salvation"....I said that God has provided a way out of sin. Everyone struggles...primarily with giving up DOING THEIR OWN WILL.

The Bible teaches that people continuing in willful sin will not be saved.
It doesnt teach that God abandons those who "struggle". On the contrary, it teaches that God is there and HE will do all the work IF you let Him, IF you SEEK Him, IF you follow His Word, IF you submit your will to Him.

IF you truly turn to Christ you wont keep on sinning the same sins over and over and over and over....its just a matter of that IF.

I completely agree, and should add that it's not just to turn to him, but to commit to him.



Thats the complete gospel...as opposed to the common false version taught in many churches that says in essense...just keep sinning and don't worry...because Jesus died for you. Jesus also LIVED for you and will live IN you.

I agree with this as well, and do not believe that you can do what you want and think you can get into heaven. I'm by no means calvinisic.

I think you thought that I was saying that no matter what you do you can't lose your salvation, partly because I didn't go into depth about who this effects and stipulations.

As you agreed, the faithful Christian that allows God to continue to uncover their sin and so on will be saved, though they're found with sin, struggle and stumble on occassion. That is why I said "once saved always saved" because I was speaking of such a Christian. When God uncovers more sin in my life, I'm not unsaved again, which is what my point was.

So in essence, I think we both agree on this topic. I should just watch how I used the term "once saved always saved"...maybe be more clear about it.

[metalman]

More on this topic from the Bible....

Romans 6

The Bible….
1.What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

In plain english….
So, will we keep on breaking Gods Laws because of Gods abundant grace??
Why absolutley NOT! How can we that have been born again into NEW life continue to live in our old life??
Have you forgotten that we all were baptized, and by doing so were putting off that old life of sin?
And that after that bastism and death of our old life we are to be raised up by the power of the Father to walk a new life?

The Bible….
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

In plain english….
If your old life is truly dead, and you have been ressurected into a new life, your sinfull life is destroyed so that after you NEED NOT continue to break Gods laws.

The Bible….
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In plain english…..
You should die but once to your old life of lawlessness…then live for Christ because sin and death have no power over you if you serve God
Be dead to your old life of sin, be alive to serve God through the power of Jesus Christ

The Bible….
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

In english….
Don’t let law breaking (sin) be in charge of your body and actions OR you will keep sinning.
Don’t give over your actions to lawlessness BUT instead YEILD your WILL to God as one who has been resurrected from that old life of sin, and your actions will be in keeping with Gods laws and word.



The Bible…
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

In english…..
Lawless behaviour shall NOT have power over you because we are under Gods abundant grace
So then, will we continue breaking Gods laws because of that grace??? Absolutely NOT!

The Bible…..
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

In english….
Whomever/whatever you obey is your master…whether that be lawbreaking and sin, which leads to death, OR obedience (law keeping) which leads to life.
Thank God we USED to be servants of lawlessness and sin BUT have obeyed Gods explicit words/doctrine by doing so are made FREE from sinning continuously and now serve God and keep His laws.


The Bible…..
19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

In english…..
You used allow sinfull living and lawlessness to reign, therby comitting the same sins over and over, BUT NOW you allow God/righteousness to reign leading to keeping Gods principles…HOLINESS.
When you were servants of self/sin, you had NO righteousness, you couldn’t do right, and of those things youused to do you are now ashamed because they only lead to eternal death.
But NOW since you are free from lawbreaking and sin and serve God, your actions are righteous and holy and lead to eternal life.
The end result of SINNING is DEATH
The gift of God is righteous LIVING through the power of Jesus Christ.