BOOST VS N/A DEBATE: ROUND 1

[BABY J]

Okay... there is usually no gray area here. Most peeps that I know are die-hard for either 1 or the other. There is no question that it's easier to make MORE TOTAL hp w/ boost. But every1 ALSO knows that if you take 2 identical motors w/ identical HP, the NA motor will outlclass the boosted motor at almost any RPM (this is VERY GENERAL. But is you want to flame that's fine. b/c that's what I want this tread to turn into.). Having been on both sides of the pond I like NA tuning the best, simply b/c it is more engineering (hard parts, not just theory) than boosted setups... at least in my mind it is.

So lb. for lb., let's say you take Dave @ S2 vs Dave @ Buschur (turbo tuning genious) and made them swap shops for 6 months... who would fall on their face the fastest... hmmmmm..........

[1439/2000]

Okay... there is usually no gray area here. Most peeps that I know are die-hard for either 1 or the other. There is no question that it's easier to make MORE TOTAL hp w/ boost. But every1 ALSO knows that if you take 2 identical motors w/ identical HP, the NA motor will outlclass the boosted motor at almost any RPM (this is VERY GENERAL. But is you want to flame that's fine. b/c that's what I want this tread to turn into.). Having been on both sides of the pond I like NA tuning the best, simply b/c it is more engineering (hard parts, not just theory) than boosted setups... at least in my mind it is.

So lb. for lb., let's say you take Dave @ S2 vs Dave @ Buschur (turbo tuning genious) and made them swap shops for 6 months... who would fall on their face the fastest... hmmmmm..........

?

Built 13b. 14000 rpms, crazy hp, decent torque.

Even rbs can rev to 11 and 12k.

Revs dont really say much about power. It depends on the motor. Old ass Honda vans like the "Life" revved to like 8k in the early 70s and put out like 60 something hp.

[BABY J]

The example I use is w/ my Spec V. There are boosted guys who have the same HP (if not more) and I pull on those guys when we play (all else being equal, like gearing, weight, etc). A 10% increase in throttle position on a high HP NA screamer vs a 10% increase in throttle position on the SAME motor (HP) feels VERY different. I do understand what you are saying though.

[1439/2000]

The example I use is w/ my Spec V. There are boosted guys who have the same HP (if not more) and I pull on those guys when we play (all else being equal, like gearing, weight, etc). A 10% increase in throttle position on a high HP NA screamer vs a 10% increase in throttle position on the SAME motor (HP) feels VERY different. I do understand what you are saying though.


Depends on the turbo and the rpm. Don't use b15s as an example though. lol They were probably shitty drivers.

Anyway from 2k to 3k on my car vs an all motor honda it might be close because my turbo isnt spooled.

From 5k to 6k its a different story. Even with a fast na car of comparable power I would say 20 pounds of compressed air wins.

[IntegraXTR]

N/A FTW!!!! Why? because I agree with you on the same hp thing, N/A owns!

[BABY J]

We are getting away from my original statements. Which requires more dedicated engineering (lb. per lb.)... N/A or FI? Also I can use my B15 as an example, just under 250 N/A, vs B15s w/ the PowerTech kit... I think it's a great example.

[1439/2000]

Nothing like building boost off the line on an awd car. The trany puts load on the turbo and you get almost instant spool. On an NA car you get instant bog.

For the Honda guys all motor or turbo, doesnt matter. You have to overcome objectives like wheelspin/hop anyway.

For AWD, without boost its no fun.

[BABY J]

We are not talking about AWD vs FWD. I said ALL THINGS EQUAL. You are dilluting my 1st post. :)

[1439/2000]

We are getting away from my original statements. Which requires more dedicated engineering (lb. per lb.)... N/A or FI? Also I can use my B15 as an example, just under 250 N/A, vs B15s w/ the PowerTech kit... I think it's a great example.

Hmm ok I think this is getting kind of retarded though. I think everyone would agree its harder to make more power NA. The QR sucks, lets use the SR.

Sr20ve can put close to 180 to the wheels stock. Stock sr20det about the same.

Boost controller, fuel pump, tuning, injectors, z32 maf= close to 300 hp on the DET.

VE car gets a header, Jim Wolf S4's/RAS/VS and Retainers, Pulsar ITBs, tuning, injectors = 215 hp


The VE revs higher to about 8500 but makes less power.

The det goes to 7500 but makes gobs more power.

[1439/2000]

We are not talking about AWD vs FWD. I said ALL THINGS EQUAL. You are dilluting my 1st post. :)

OK take a Galant GSX. 2.4 non turbo awd and a VR4 2.0 turbo awd.

Vr4 wins EVEN if the GGSX has the same amount of power.

It can't get to it as quick as it takes the turbo to spool.

[1439/2000]

I guess another thing I'm missing here is if you are taking cars with the same power amount NA vs Turbo then that turbo car sucks.

Take Vteckidds CRX. 237 hp high revving All motor.

Take another CRX, turbo it. Put down 237 hp.

Wow, then dont turbo your car. See what i'm saying?

I dont think forced induction numbers should be close to what you could get NA. If you spend a ton of money on an all motor beast and a decent amount on a turbo kit for your car and you end up with the same amount of power, then you have failed. You should ALWAYS be able to beat an NA car in a power battle if you have the same setup.

Now back to the original point. It depends on the setup entirely. If you have 237 hp NA and 237 boosted for example. When do you shift? When does your powerband start/stop?

[BABY J]

My argument is ENGINEERING PROWESS!!! KNOW HOW!!. The cars were only used as an example. I want to debate your points, but we can do that in a different thread... you are missing a lot of where I am attempting to take this thread.

[1439/2000]

My argument is ENGINEERING PROWESS!!! KNOW HOW!!. The cars were only used as an example. I want to debate your points, but we can do that in a different thread... you are missing a lot of where I am attempting to take this thread.


I think everyone would agree its harder to make more power NA.

What am I missing? It takes more ENGINEERING PROWESS to make a fast NA 4 cylinder.

[BABY J]

Why do you say that? There are more tuning variables in FI:

compressor size
A/R size
boost pressure
dynamic CRs
etc.

(I actually agree with you, I am just playing devil's advocate to see if I may learn something here)

[1439/2000]

Why do you say that? There are more tuning variables in FI:

compressor size
A/R size
boost pressure
dynamic CRs
etc.

(I actually agree with you, I am just playing devil's advocate to see if I may learn something here)


The stuff you listed is easy to sort out though.

Low compression, more fuel, more boost= more power.

You take a 1g DSM for example. 7.8 to 1 CR stock. Perfect.

50 trim, 720cc, fuel pump, SAFC, 2g maf. = 350 to the wheels.

You dont even have to mess with timing really. You just pull fuel and even peg rich its still putting over 100 more hp at the crank than stock.

Listing A/R size and boost pressure and stuff like that is not really a tuning variable. You buy a decent sized turbo for the application. 2 liters you could spool a decent sized turbo. 50 trim for example. You take a wideband and increase boost until maybe 5% knock showing on like a datalogger and the air/fuel is 12 to 1 (or less until you get on a dyno if youd like).

Its just easier with boost.

Now with an NA car. You have to measure head gaskets and bore this and that and get these pistons to have this compression ratio and all that shit. Thats where it gets complicated.

[BABY J]

So is there NE1 who thinks that it takes more engineering prowess to go FI??

[Stormhammer]

it takes more to go N/A - like 1439 said, you'd have to do careful and exacting measurements because you are generally dealing with the block - you can do some simple bolt ons, but to make serious HP you have to do some serious engineering on N/A

with FI, hell... - you do a few things the same as N/A ( in some upgrade aspects in general ) - and then you just put on a big ass turbo and hellloooo

I will say this, and its generally known, N/A has a smoother power band than FI


but if you want some examples of diff. engineering in regards to FI, look at mine and 1439's car

we both have Super16G's ( or Big16G's - 1mm difference ) - and if I recall he boosts @ 18psi - but he's at full boost at 5k, whereas mine is fully spooled by 3500 @ 18psi - and its in that that engineering prowess I believe would come in handy

[Hondatwin23]

i think its more for FI. NA in my thoughts(listen bitches MY THOUGHTS) is using the basic make up for a car to run and go a little extreme with it. i.e pistons for more of a bang, maybe rods for a more strength under hard conditions.more air and fuel and bam u got urself a street monster.
Now F.I. u have to find the right size turbo a good manifold, right size injectors TUNING ! even though NA guys Need tuning but i think FI its a little more critical and plus once u reach u max power with NA thats it ! F.I. u turn the boost up baby !

[Ludester]

They both have there pros and cons. FI has the greater power potiential out of the two. But there is something about N/A that is just raw when your actually making power.

As far as tuning being a little more critical for FI I have disagree with that one. Try building a 14:1 CR n/a engine.... Detonations is a bitch!

[TallGuy]

For me it more of a streetability Issue because even though it would be fun to have a b18c putting down 240hp in NA form i dont think it would be that great of a street car. now a 240hp FI b18c would be more practical because you dont need the huge cams, high CR, and 100 pluse octain fuel.

[1439/2000]

it takes more to go N/A - like 1439 said, you'd have to do careful and exacting measurements because you are generally dealing with the block - you can do some simple bolt ons, but to make serious HP you have to do some serious engineering on N/A

with FI, hell... - you do a few things the same as N/A ( in some upgrade aspects in general ) - and then you just put on a big ass turbo and hellloooo

I will say this, and its generally known, N/A has a smoother power band than FI


but if you want some examples of diff. engineering in regards to FI, look at mine and 1439's car

we both have Super16G's ( or Big16G's - 1mm difference ) - and if I recall he boosts @ 18psi - but he's at full boost at 5k, whereas mine is fully spooled by 3500 @ 18psi - and its in that that engineering prowess I believe would come in handy

Actually I have a b16g with a 20g wheel make 20-21 psi and hit full at like 3800 -4000. Still too late but spools up fast with a brake boost or launch.

[Stormhammer]

Actually I have a b16g with a 20g wheel make 20-21 psi and hit full at like 3800 -4000. Still too late but spools up fast with a brake boost or launch.

boost lag is a bitch lol - still, its always nice to be peeling out all the way into 3rd gear @ 6k :D

[1439/2000]

boost lag is a bitch lol - still, its always nice to be peeling out all the way into 3rd gear @ 6k :D

I wouldnt know with this car. This is the only car I've had lag in in bad enough.

I do wheel hop sometimes though. At night when the air is dense I can spin half of 1st.

[Vteckidd]

Its all about preference. there are ALOT of factors not be accounted for either.

i will Say that any turbo car making even 50more whp more than an NA car wont stand a chance.

IE My 237whp/160TQ CRX vs lets say, GGPIS3s Lexus. He baselines 288whp/270TQ on our dyno without nitrous. in that video of me vs him off bottle you can see me slowly pull him an he was making WAY more power. Why did i win?

1) I weigh 1800lbs vs his 3000+lbs
2) he redlines at 6500rpms, i redline at 9500rpm

I have much more useuable powerband, an much logner gearing. remember, no matter what happens in a highway pull, the LONGer you can stay in gear the faster you will be. YOU LOSE POWER AN POSITION IN A RACE WHEN YOU SHIFT, no way around it.

What it comes down to is how the car is setup. My car is a TIN CAN that i bet NONE of you would drive everyday, its as bare bones as it gets, NO ac, NO interior, no tar on the floorbaord, no firewall mat,no stereo, no nothing. Dan can cruise with the AC an PS on an full interior with 3 bitches in the back with the sunroof open blasting his MP3 player.

Usually, for an NA car to be fast you got to be LIGHT no matter what. no one builds an NA accord, shit is heavy, you have to built a chassis that supports the power.

I get customers ALL THE TIME that come in with SOHC 92-95 civics or EKs. They want to do a swap. the first thing i ask them is "why do you want to swap?" their response is usuall "cause i want to be faster". i ask them their ultimate goal an most of the time the answer is they want a fast street car, not a race car, not a lot of maintanence for the most affordable price.

i reccomend to them to turbo their D series. They could do a GSR swap for $4000 an make 155whp/125TQ OR they could turbo their D series and make 185whp/175TQ with our kit for $3500.

which car is faster? the TURBO D all day long.

I always reccomend TURBO to the heavier chassis guys like 99-00 Civic Sis, DC2s, etc. Its just hard for them to be THAT much faster with an all motor build because they are already handicapped by their weight. the last thin i want is someone spending their hard earned money an driving away thinking "man, this really isnt that much faster". i want them to come back with a smile on their face saying "holy shit its way faster than i ever thought." usually the turbo does that more than the NA.

Im an all motor fanatic, its what i like. to me, its not something that everyone does or CAN do. Its an art, you dont make the power in an NA car, you cant simply just "up the boost". an there is no better feeling than beating up on a turbo car or a V8 with a 4 cylinder that has no power adder.

But as i said, it costs ALOT an the HP/Dollar sucks so its not for everyone.

[Stormhammer]

I wouldnt know with this car. This is the only car I've had lag in in bad enough.

I do wheel hop sometimes though. At night when the air is dense I can spin half of 1st.

eh, I had crappy tires - they're hard so they spin easily lol - althought for a 16G I'd say around 3500 is pretty average - its why I have a BOV bypass as my "anti-lag" :D plus as weird as it sounds but I dont like hearing a psssshtt everytime I let off the gas (esp in traffic, lame I know) but its beautiful for sleepiness :cool:

[BABY J]

even though NA guys Need tuning but i think FI its a little more critical and plus once u reach u max power with NA thats it ! F.I. u turn the boost up baby !

I disagree. I think tuning for HARD PARTS is harder than tuning FI. All you need is "more" when it comes to FI. More boost?? Need more fuel. More fuel/boost? Need less total timing. MORE MORE MORE. That's not very definitive. N/A is more of an EXACT science (so is FI, but just for the sake of the debate) in my mind... going through 5 different headers for 3 - 4 WHP is something a lotta FI guys do not understand. What the cam card in my wallet says, they can really careless about. Throw more boost at it, and it'll work. :) FI tuners really can careless what cams you are running... to them (I have spoken to a few) they are really only thinking of a few things:

--> can the block handle the boost
--> can the fuel match the psi
--> can the timing (less total timing from base) not detonate at that boost level
--> heat (run rich, less power, but cooler engine)

That's being VERY generic (not tryna knock any FI tuners), but that's basically the jist. REAL N/A tuners have to have a more intricate knowledge of ENGINES and how/why/where they make power, where a FI tuner will have a more intricate knowledge of turbo/housing/wheel selection. A lot of times even this is already done for them... you can google a compressor map for any production engine... the "recipe" is there. All you do from there is slowly up the boost, check the A/F and keep timing under control. You will not find those "recipes" for a serious N/A beast.

[BABY J]

... i will Say that any turbo car making even 50more whp more than an NA car wont stand a chance.

Great point Mike... and to amplify this I will quote MYSELF from another old thread:


... the PTI turbo is pretty popular right now --> that's getting the Spec V guys around 230 wheel. I KILL those guys at the track and on the street though... BIG time, not even close. What side of town you on? We can "take a ride" in my Spec... I will show you (using the AFC) what just a 5% increase in throttle postion feels like on a 250whp N/A beast... at uhhh, we'll say 80mph... or 100mph. And then we can get my boy's classic SEr (boosted jdm sr20, 20psi) and see what a turbo car does at 10% throttle increase at the MPH of your choice!! I think you would guess DEAD wrong on what your ass-dyno would suspect as the best bang. :) Simply stated, I have waxed a LOT of turbo cars... and if the fun wasn't limited to 7800rpms (PISTON SPEED IS THE BIGGEST PROB WITH THE QR25... IT'S INSANE... MAKES FOR TONS-O-TORQUE THOUGH AND A NICE BROAD POWER BAND)...



... But as i said, it costs ALOT an the HP/Dollar sucks so its not for everyone.

True, in terms of "bang for the buck" hell yeah go FI. It's gonna almost always "harder" and take more engineering to be fast/faster NA.

[1439/2000]

eh, I had crappy tires - they're hard so they spin easily lol - althought for a 16G I'd say around 3500 is pretty average - its why I have a BOV bypass as my "anti-lag" :D plus as weird as it sounds but I dont like hearing a psssshtt everytime I let off the gas (esp in traffic, lame I know) but its beautiful for sleepiness :cool:

My bov is quiet, HKS without an insert vented but I have an open wastegate dump. Its loud.

[99SI]

When considering NA volumetric efficiency comes into play greatly. Also, in an all motor head you have to consider peak flow characteristics as well as flow velocity. Get one or the other wrong and you don't make the power. Get them both right and you have a great power curve and a much more "efficient" engine at using the parts you attach. Valve overlap and exhaust scavenging have to be considered when determining optimal primaries, secondaries, collector, as well as length of a header. Again, NA is much more of a science that I have not even begun to scratch the surface of. That's why when having a head ported for a serious NA build you have to find the right person to do it. Hell anyone can take and enlarge ports, deshroud chambers, do bowl work just to make them bigger. But knowing how to do it where you maintain optimum velocity of the intake charge and optimal scavening properties is where the real pros earn their money.

[Hondatwin23]

They both have there pros and cons. FI has the greater power potiential out of the two. But there is something about N/A that is just raw when your actually making power.

As far as tuning being a little more critical for FI I have disagree with that one. Try building a 14:1 CR n/a engine.... Detonations is a bitch!

thats true soo true. my friend had a 14:5 cr and tuning for him was a pain in the ass

[1439/2000]

thats true soo true. my friend had a 14:5 cr and tuning for him was a pain in the ass

On a street car? If so thats retarded. Have fun putting race gas in all the time!

[Hondatwin23]

he actually did put race gas in it. its only retarded if ur not will to do it urself but to each his own

[BABY J]

12:5:1 is about the limits of pump gas safely. 14:5 is crazy for a street-driven N/A or boosted engine. Wow.

[tony]

I can only speak on the VQ engine since that is what I have experience with.

Boost vs N/A.. for the sheer power I'll go with boost but the fun factor went with N/A. Putting down 400+hp boosted was nice at first but it got old and predictable. N/a the sound and the experience was unreal.. with basically a lightweight clutch and flywheel assembly the car was fun but somewhat hard to drive.

[The Golden Child]

hmmm interesting thread makes me sort of understand the difference ..

[Hondatwin23]

yea dude was crazy and i was just the same to help him built such a thing.
H23 vtec with 14:5 cr. crazy but fun a hell to drive. did i mention it was in a eg coupe.

[1439/2000]

he actually did put race gas in it. its only retarded if ur not will to do it urself but to each his own

I dont understand what you mean. I have low compression because my car is turbo. I don't understand why the ratio is so high for the street. Race gas everyday is dumb.

[Stormhammer]

I disagree. I think tuning for HARD PARTS is harder than tuning FI. All you need is "more" when it comes to FI. More boost?? Need more fuel. More fuel/boost? Need less total timing. MORE MORE MORE. That's not very definitive. N/A is more of an EXACT science (so is FI, but just for the sake of the debate) in my mind... going through 5 different headers for 3 - 4 WHP is something a lotta FI guys do not understand. What the cam card in my wallet says, they can really careless about. Throw more boost at it, and it'll work. :) FI tuners really can careless what cams you are running... to them (I have spoken to a few) they are really only thinking of a few things:

--> can the block handle the boost
--> can the fuel match the psi
--> can the timing (less total timing from base) not detonate at that boost level
--> heat (run rich, less power, but cooler engine)

That's being VERY generic (not tryna knock any FI tuners), but that's basically the jist. REAL N/A tuners have to have a more intricate knowledge of ENGINES and how/why/where they make power, where a FI tuner will have a more intricate knowledge of turbo/housing/wheel selection. A lot of times even this is already done for them... you can google a compressor map for any production engine... the "recipe" is there. All you do from there is slowly up the boost, check the A/F and keep timing under control. You will not find those "recipes" for a serious N/A beast.

you forgot one of the BIGGEST things that FI people also look into

heat heat heat - how do we make it run cooler without losing HP

and how do we prevent as much turbo lag as possible

[BABY J]

scroll up, "heat" was my 4th arrow "-->". But it prolly deserves to be up higher in the list.

[93H22ACX]

I dont think anyone can just put a big turbo on make huge power...i mean you can but u might not be too fast LOL. It depends on efficient the motor build up is also. And its not really about peak power in turbo applications...its both with a usable powerband. meaning... having a broad power band and dropping into it during an upshift. Unless you go with a huge turbo and a huge shot of nitrous then thats another story.

I can say that with a 187whp my hatch has ran 12's and i know it takes a little bit more power for a turbo car but..... its because of weigh differences.

all motor cars cant be faster than a turbo car if both are the same wight, same driver, same power output (if the power band is usuable as i mentioned above).

Reason being, the turbo car will have more torque, and torque + hp should move the car faster than an NA car IMO.

Its just as hard to get a turbo car to go fast because you have to get parts that work well with ur motor...sure its easy to get peak power but to get parts that give u a good power band + peak power is hard.

NA, its the same way but cost more to make power. I like turbo cause power to $$ wise, its a better result.

But only way to find out is to race a turbo and na car with same hp and weight.

now i know you guys might be thinking.. look at clutch masters cars...its only making around 300whp and running 9's compare to a turbo car making 650+whp running 9's. but you have to think about the weight difference beteween the two, especially chassis wise.

[BABY J]

I disagree. When I raced the guys w/ the Power Tech Imports boosted Spec Vs in my Spec, I'd wax them. And also, 1 of them for SURE had 264 wheel compared to my 248 wheel. The others only had me by a couple of WHP.

[93H22ACX]

I disagree. When I raced the guys w/ the Power Tech Imports boosted Spec Vs in my Spec, I'd wax them. And also, 1 of them for SURE had 264 wheel compared to my 248 wheel. The others only had me by a couple of WHP.

did those guys know how to drive? and how was the race? roll, stop, freeway, how far was the race?

Just because you beat a car doesnt mean that that is how it will be all the time.

look at it this way...

nitrous in way is like an all motor setup.... compare it to both me and my buddy with a 3150lb prelude.

i had a prelude with a drag kit at 6psi vs my buddies prelude with a 55 shot of nitrous.

yeah he beat me from a stop but we only raced to 3rd gear. but, on the freeway and track wise, i would spank that ass...... i am sure it was around the same hp also.

so it depends on how far of a distance. like i said..

ONLY way to find out is to actually get a race and have the same driver drive it...thats the only way to find out

[BABY J]

I will assume that they were/are as competent as me. W/ short gears (6 speed) maybe the Spec V is not the best choice for boost, but the PTI turbo spools crazy fast... so I dunno. I do know that most of the guys w/ the kit were laying down from 240 - 265 wheel depending on other supporting mods and tuning... and that was at Denver altitude even. I am sure if we went all out that the boosted Spec Vs would walk me up top (qr25 claim to fame is torque, not revs). But mine is limited to 7500 and stock is 6700). The PTI guys' piggy back still doesn't mod the factory rev limit of 6700 so you may be on to something... actually my wins may be based on what VTECKID said as far as not having to shift as soon/often as those guys. I have done pulls at almost every RPM and pulled those boosted Specs, but of course we cut the fun just like every1 else does once you prove your point.

[93H22ACX]

i see... good thread though....:goodjob:

[SPOOLIN]

I know that when i had 450hp, and josh green had his 202whp all motor. when i put it in 3rd and we went, he jumped like 2 cars, but then, yes then, i raped that ass. but that is a big power contrast. all motor has its fun but when it comes to drag racing. Im siding of course with FI. Turbo lag is bullshit. Yeah it might lag, in first gear. but after that its BAM BAM BAM

[BABY J]

I know that when i had 450hp, and josh green had his 202whp all motor. when i put it in 3rd and we went, he jumped like 2 cars, but then, yes then, i raped that ass. but that is a big power contrast. all motor has its fun but when it comes to drag racing. Im siding of course with FI. Turbo lag is bullshit. Yeah it might lag, in first gear. but after that its BAM BAM BAM

Fuck you Puto!! Showoff!!! LOL. I got somethin coming... stay tuned. :)

[Vteckidd]

I know that when i had 450hp, and josh green had his 202whp all motor. when i put it in 3rd and we went, he jumped like 2 cars, but then, yes then, i raped that ass. but that is a big power contrast. all motor has its fun but when it comes to drag racing. Im siding of course with FI. Turbo lag is bullshit. Yeah it might lag, in first gear. but after that its BAM BAM BAM
thats also a HIGHWAY race. Highway will go to the turbo car, they got higher trap speeds.

Take a 240whp 1800lb CRX vs a 500whp EK Hatch

At the track where both use slicks, it would be a good race, but i think the EK would win. On the street the NA car will destroy the boosted car from a dig because of traction, on the highway the turbo car ownz.

[93H22ACX]

thats also a HIGHWAY race. Highway will go to the turbo car, they got higher trap speeds.

Take a 240whp 1800lb CRX vs a 500whp EK Hatch

At the track where both use slicks, it would be a good race, but i think the EK would win. On the street the NA car will destroy the boosted car from a dig because of traction, on the highway the turbo car ownz.

yeah thats what im saying LOL. wassup mike where u be at

[B18c1Turboed]

thats also a HIGHWAY race. Highway will go to the turbo car, they got higher trap speeds.

Take a 240whp 1800lb CRX vs a 500whp EK Hatch

At the track where both use slicks, it would be a good race, but i think the EK would win. On the street the NA car will destroy the boosted car from a dig because of traction, on the highway the turbo car ownz.


When ever you want test that theory out let me know!!! U know where to find me!!

[Hondatwin23]

i smell a race brewing !

[Vteckidd]

When ever you want test that theory out let me know!!! U know where to find me!!
RIght now the only car we can test is my 108hp CRX SI vs your minivan. so.....



but i would put $500 on my new motor vs your old gsr :)

[B18c1Turboed]

RIght now the only car we can test is my 108hp CRX SI vs your minivan. so.....



but i would put $500 on my new motor vs your old gsr :)


MiniVan? you must be thinking of bee!! HAHA srorry Bee


On my old motor the car was never fully tuned, we only tuned it at 21psi and it was 524, so if i knew i was racing for 500 bet your ass it would have been back on the dyno tuned at 35psi.

But i will race the new motor also,when you get it toghter!!! And u can race my new motor also. Oh NO POPPING HOOD run what you BRUNG!!!

[BABY J]

No point in calling out Mike yet... he's not ready. But every1 knows he's good for it, so there's no point to prove just yet. Take ya time, dial it in Mike. Every1 will get their shot at you... including me. ;)

[B18c1Turboed]

No point in calling out Mike yet... he's not ready. But every1 knows he's good for it, so there's no point to prove just yet. Take ya time, dial it in Mike. Every1 will get their shot at you... including me. ;)


Yea i guess there is no point since Mike only street races, I never saw his HIGHEST HP CAR IN GA at any tracks or show any numbers track wise.

Anybody can street race, all you have to do is drop a gear and floor it. the real racers prove it at the tracks!!

[BABY J]

Yea i guess there is no point since Mike only street races, I never saw his HIGHEST HP CAR IN GA at any tracks or show any numbers track wise.

Outside of Tom @ Acura/Honda and a few other SSIDE peeps no1 has seen my 95 Si (DOHC), and only a handful have seen my Spec V. Most have seen my EF and my 92 Si (SOHC). There is a reason for that. I'm not on his (MIkes) nuts, but I know that I have PLENTY of secrets and I sandbag a LOT too. Everything is not what it seems, just a thought. The Carolina Dragway kats prolly have seen ALL of my cars, that's where I tune. Some people like to showcase, and some do not. But I do think Mike needs to lay it all to rest w/ a track run this time... but at the same time, if he's like me he likes to keep 'em guessing.



Anybody can street race, all you have to do is drop a gear and floor it. the real racers prove it at the tracks!!

SWING -->AND A MISS!!!! Both take skill... you VHT gurus have a lot to learn about launching on the street... it takes LOTS of skill to launch on the street repsectively. And it ALSO takes a lot of skill to tree at the track, and launch on a prepped surface. Most people are great at one, and only good at the other. VERY few people are the shit at both b/c they are exact opposites.

[Vteckidd]

Danny knows im just fucking with him.

hes right, im not a track racer, i never have been, i dont have the money to be competitive an it just doesnt interest me.

i love you danny

[93H22ACX]

Danny knows im just fucking with him.

hes right, im not a track racer, i never have been, i dont have the money to be competitive an it just doesnt interest me.

i love you danny

mike...thats why you said i can run yours at NDRA right :D

[Vteckidd]

actually yeah, i told Bee that he could drive it, cause i didnt want to break anything on it LOL.

but that motor is LONG gone. DO i regret selling it, no, do i regret not getting a track time on it, yes. It was fast, but only i know that, no one will ever know how fast it really was because only i drove it.

oh well, such is life.

[Stormhammer]

now you guys are talking about traction - if a turbo car loses traction, its because the driver fucking sucks

[B18c1Turboed]

[QUOTE=BABY J]Outside of Tom @ Acura/Honda and a few other SSIDE peeps no1 has seen my 95 Si (DOHC), and only a handful have seen my Spec V. Most have seen my EF and my 92 Si (SOHC). There is a reason for that. I'm not on his (MIkes) nuts, but I know that I have PLENTY of secrets and I sandbag a LOT too. Everything is not what it seems, just a thought. The Carolina Dragway kats prolly have seen ALL of my cars, that's where I tune. Some people like to showcase, and some do not. But I do think Mike needs to lay it all to rest w/ a track run this time... but at the same time, if he's like me he likes to keep 'em guessing.[QUOTE]



LIKE TI says BRING IT OUT!!! Dont be scared, you dont have to go too another state to test and tune.I mean come on thats funny by itself!!

Dont matter how many secrets you have up your sleeve, if u cant bring it out and show anyone its pointless. I have a ferrari i never drive it becasue i have secrets up my sleeve for it also!!!

[Vteckidd]

not true at all, wtf are you smoking, Turbo car on street tires or my NA car spun through 3rd, it wasnt cause i was a "shitty driver"

[B18c1Turboed]

now you guys are talking about traction - if a turbo car loses traction, its because the driver fucking sucks

DING D ING DING!
The way you control traction in a turbo car, Turn the BOOST DOWN!!!!

Thats what i do, but i guess haveing a 4 stage boost controller helps alot too!!!!

[93H22ACX]

DING D ING DING!
The way you control traction in a turbo car, Turn the BOOST DOWN!!!!

Thats what i do, but i guess haveing a 4 stage boost controller helps alot too!!!!

not really... i mean even if you turn the boost down it'll still have traction issues unless its real low. if thats the case, then no point of being turbo.

even all motor cars have traction issues

[B18c1Turboed]

not really... i mean even if you turn the boost down it'll still have traction issues unless its real low. if thats the case, then no point of being turbo

Shut up son! Go to your room and think about talking back to your daddy like that!!!

[93H22ACX]

Shut up son! Go to your room and think about talking back to your daddy like that!!!

HAHAHHA :holds hand up right hand and bitch slap left check of danny: ahahahah

LOL

[B18c1Turboed]

HAHAHHA :holds hand up right hand and bitch slap left check of danny: ahahahah

LOL

oh really? so whos slicks where you coming to get tonight? :eye:

[93H22ACX]

oh really? so whos slicks where you coming to get tonight? :eye:

:eek: :confused: :headslap:

[BABY J]

LIKE TI says BRING IT OUT!!! Dont be scared, you dont have to go too another state to test and tune. I mean come on thats funny by itself!! Dont matter how many secrets you have up your sleeve, if u cant bring it out and show anyone its pointless. I have a ferrari i never drive it becasue i have secrets up my sleeve for it also!!!

And this is proof that we race/tune for different reasons... :)

1) I was stationed at Shaw AFB for my last 3 years in the Air Force, I have came to love/know that track (Carolina Dragway).

** not to mention, times that show up on that board do not end up on IA before you are ready for them to, even though a lot of members of IA are there... those guys respect "test and tune" for what it is.

2) It's really a short drive, and I can run as much as I want w/out waiting in line

3) I have no need to "show-off" for the masses. Actually when I had my first few fast projects that's what I did. I am past that stage. I tune b/c I enjoy it... and as long as I enjoy it, that's all that matters. But whooping up on kats on the street is fun too, don't get me wrong. :)

4) As far as showing NE1, there are a few select people on (and off) the board to vouch for my projects. I literally have 2 more projects (finishing the EF, and a Datsun 510) and then I am outta the game anyway. It's been a good time though, and I will always keep 1 or 2 decent projects in the stable. I will find another stupid place to waste a lotta money... LOL.

[iloveboost]

Cliff notes of thread: Turbo to go fast.

And whoever said someone is a bad driver because their car breaks loose is an idiot. My car will break loose and still own you any day of the week.

[BABY J]

Cliff notes of thread: Turbo to go fast.

And whoever said someone is a bad driver because their car breaks loose is an idiot. My car will break loose and still own you any day of the week.

uh oh!

[The Golden Child]

bitch i have a 1324986384713712372193 hp car that is in the basement and spank all you punks ..






j.k.

[BABY J]

not true at all, wtf are you smoking, Turbo car on street tires or my NA car spun through 3rd, it wasnt cause i was a "shitty driver"

Uh huh!! You know you suck! All of your friends told me so! But it's a secret, and I told them that I'd never tell you.

[TIGERJC]

Na all day long, I really want a k series swap civic.

[The Golden Child]

Na all day long, I really want a k series swap civic.

turbo k or na k ??

[TIGERJC]

na k

[Ludester]

On a street car? If so thats retarded. Have fun putting race gas in all the time!

The point I was trying to get across was that n/a guys have to worry about the same things that boost guys have to worry about excluding the boost. It has nothing to do with 14:1cr number I though out there. Everybody that knows anything knows 12.5:1 is the threash hold for pump gas. And even at that cr denotation is still a bitch. Thats all.

[BABY J]

The point I was trying to get across was that n/a guys have to worry about the same things that boost guys have to worry about excluding the boost. It has nothing to do with 14:1cr number I though out there. Everybody that knows anything knows 12.5:1 is the threash hold for pump gas. And even at that cr denotation is still a bitch. Thats all.

Actually every1 DOESN'T know that. :) want proof, make a poll ON THIS SITE (full of "car guys") and see what people guess. You'd be surprised. Hardly NE1 runs that high compression, so no1 really has that knowledge in their head. :goodjob:

[Stormhammer]

Actually every1 DOESN'T know that. :) want proof, make a poll ON THIS SITE (full of "car guys") and see what people guess. You'd be surprised. Hardly NE1 runs that high compression, so no1 really has that knowledge in their head. :goodjob:

well that may also be because its also not a plausible setup for a street car

and by street car in my definition I mean you drive it daily ( or almost )

[BABY J]

^^ I agree. But I know a few Team Rush (Columbia, SC) guys that do it. They own a few hundred nail salons, so they got the loot for crap like that. Must be nice.

[Jaimecbr900]

This thread has a lot of potential, but J you have to clarify a couple of things IMO.

#1. Define "engineering" as it relates to this thread. I'm sure we can all give examples of some very intricate and complex turbo setups that required a ton of R&D, a ton of $, and a ton of engineering. Look at many of the race cars at the track.

#2. If you held everything the same (ie. car model, weight, driver), most N/A cars can not hang with it's turbo clone unless the race is specifically designed to have an advantage to one vs the other. In other words, if you race two clone cars (one turbo, one N/A) in a tight close course where HP is not the name of the game.....there is no advantage of course. Now, race the same two cars in a straight line or on the highway and it's lights out soon enough. There are exceptions to this of course, but more often than not it's true.

#3. Unless you buy your "turbo kit" off ebay......most of the time it takes a little more than merely "turning up the boost" to make more HP. This is why some "kits" make more HP on similar cars than do others. It's about engineering and tuning. You can pick from probably 50 different kinds of turbos right off the shelf for a Honda, but try and find one for my car.... ;) So a "kit" for my car has to have a lot more "engineering" than just an off the shelf piece that uses a plain ole cast manifold, T3/T4 turbo, and a no name brand I/C. Know what I mean? There are a lot of custom setups on the street right now, around here, that are feats of engineering if you really want to look at it.


Yes, it is easier to make more HP with a turbo vs N/A. Yes, you can throw together a turbo kit of course, just like you can throw a bunch of nitrous in just about any car. Yes, it is harder to make an N/A car put out serious HP for a lot of reasons but the main one is......ALL engines use the exact same theory to make power REGARDLESS of N/A or FI or N2O. The biggest difference being that in the N/A motor it has to be done with more parts than doing it with FI.

I still like big balls (ie. big torque) N/A motors in the domestic muscle cars. They're bad ass. I've been on both sides of the fence, and if it's not big displacement, give me FI.

[BABY J]

FUCK YEAH!!! GREAT POST!!! AND THIS IS THE KINDA RESPONSES I WANTED TO SEE... I AM HEADING TO BG FOR NOS AND TO TALK ABOUT HONDATA TUNING AND I WILL REPLY TO THIS TONIGHT!!! +1 FOR NOT JUST SAYING "turbos rock" or some dumb shit. LOL.

[Ludester]

^^ I agree. But I know a few Team Rush (Columbia, SC) guys that do it. They own a few hundred nail salons, so they got the loot for crap like that. Must be nice.

in a couple of weeks to a month or so you can ad me to the 12:1 cr daily driven guys if I can get my money right :goodjob:

[Ludester]

Actually every1 DOESN'T know that. :) want proof, make a poll ON THIS SITE (full of "car guys") and see what people guess. You'd be surprised. Hardly NE1 runs that high compression, so no1 really has that knowledge in their head. :goodjob:

The more I think about it, the more I see your right. Not many people actually know that.

[Stormhammer]

FUCK YEAH!!! GREAT POST!!! AND THIS IS THE KINDA RESPONSES I WANTED TO SEE... I AM HEADING TO BG FOR NOS AND TO TALK ABOUT HONDATA TUNING AND I WILL REPLY TO THIS TONIGHT!!! +1 FOR NOT JUST SAYING "turbos rock" or some dumb shit. LOL.


haha I agree - I wouldn't say turbo's rock, they have their downside

but hm, it does take some engineering prowess ( measurements more than anything else of wheels and housings, etc etc etc ) to have a proper setup - I guess when it comes down to it, BOTH have the same amount of R&D into them depending on the owner

[Jaimecbr900]

I think there is a big misconception from the masses that because it's so prolific in the magazines and the car media to see an FI car that it's just a simple bolt up a turbo and that's it. It is far from that, although there are so many off the shelf "kits" available for soooo many cars now it truly is easy to do, as long as you keep it within the intended limits.

See, a lot of these young bucks think that they can get an Ebay kit and merely "turn up the boost" because they "know" that their B16 block is going to hold 25psi..... :rolleyes: . They may have seen their buddy's SLEEVED and BUILT motor hold that much boost, but the limits of both the "kit" and the stock motor may be different. Then when they sling a rod or a piston thru the side of the block, they blame the TURBO KIT instead of their own stupidity for the failure.

Every single component has it's limitations and it's range where they're efficient. That includes N/A components too. The beauty of N/A components is that IF done correctly, the majority of the consumers will NOT supercede the ability of those types of components. In other words, a cam or valves or retainers or flowed head will put out X amount, period. You can't turn "up" anything on them to supercede their max output. You can overrev a motor and blow them up, but 90% of the time as long as you don't act like a dumb ass and it was installed correctly......some ying yang can't just turn up a dial and screw it all up. The motor will rev to X, the internals will spin to X, and the car will put out Y. The real hard part is figuring out the combination of those internal components to make it put out as much Y as possible.

With boost, it is easier to turn it "up", but it's also easier to screw things up if you don't do it correctly.

Both sides have their pros and cons IMO.

[1439/2000]

The point I was trying to get across was that n/a guys have to worry about the same things that boost guys have to worry about excluding the boost. It has nothing to do with 14:1cr number I though out there. Everybody that knows anything knows 12.5:1 is the threash hold for pump gas. And even at that cr denotation is still a bitch. Thats all.

I understand that. But most turbo guys don't deal with detonation because of compression ratios. Most factory turbo cars are setup fine to turn up the wick a little bit safely without detonation. Then throw more fuel at it.

NA tuning is a little harder with 20894 to 1 compression. And whoever had the 14.5 cr car, there are more cost effective and eaiser ways to make power. Race gas all the time to run what like 13s all motor?

[Hondatwin23]

when u got the money for it why not? who here that would have the funds make a monster ass car to just spank anyone that wanted some. ur right he did run in the 13's cause he kept snapping axles on the track.

[Tank]

FUCK YEAH!!! GREAT POST!!! AND THIS IS THE KINDA RESPONSES I WANTED TO SEE... I AM HEADING TO BG FOR NOS AND TO TALK ABOUT HONDATA TUNING AND I WILL REPLY TO THIS TONIGHT!!! +1 FOR NOT JUST SAYING "turbos rock" or some dumb shit. LOL.
turbos rock asshole LOL

[Stormhammer]

when u got the money for it why not? who here that would have the funds make a monster ass car to just spank anyone that wanted some. ur right he did run in the 13's cause he kept snapping axles on the track.

if he kept snapping axles at the track he didnt build it up enough or right - which results in a waste of money lol

[BABY J]

if he kept snapping axles at the track he didnt build it up enough or right - which results in a waste of money lol

+1. Yeah. Guys kill me w/ that... "I spun 1st through 4th, I would have won if it wasn't for that!" LOL. :jerkit: That is a poorly engineered setup any way you slice it, or an overly agressive driver... either way, YOU LOST so what's the point? LOL

[1civic]

Its funny how alot people would just put a Turbo kit on their car without thinking anything out... Alot does go into a build.. Both N/A and Boost..
Even if you don't have the Money to build a Monster...You could think of ways to be faster...Examples: Lighter car, Different gearing, Better tires, Your driving skills, Etc..... I myself own a Boosted car and a N/A car... One of the first things I think about is putting power to the Ground.. I like all around Power for the most part so Big Boost in my 240 would be no fun... It would make BIG power yes but only good for the nothing... I like driving my cars daily... ;) .. With N/A you can be fast and I think we have people to prove this.. You have to have a Plan.. Its this a street car ? Are you going to drive it Daily ?...Is it your only car ? Etc... Alot goes into anybuild and I would take ether one.. You have to find a Happy Meduim.... For the most part people don't have a clue what it takes to make power and the rely on The internet or other people to copy off of.. Not saying its a bad thing because we all need help... You just can't expect your car to be what HIS is... Anyways IMO.. I see just as much in both N/A and Boost Monsters... Theres alot more to just bolting on parts And I hope poeple will understand this... :goodjob:

[Stormhammer]

+1. Yeah. Guys kill me w/ that... "I spun 1st through 4th, I would have won if it wasn't for that!" LOL. :jerkit: That is a poorly engineered setup any way you slice it, or an overly agressive driver... either way, YOU LOST so what's the point? LOL

on my black car I could have my tires spinnging up into 3rd gear pinned @ 6k - why? loss of traction? why? hard ass not sticky at all tires that lasted forever :lmfao: wasn't so much the setup as what came on the car when I bought it... plus I enjoyed the ease of peeling out and not loosing rubber :D

[Stormhammer]

Its funny how alot people would just put a Turbo kit on their car without thinking anything out... Alot does go into a build.. Both N/A and Boost..
Even if you don't have the Money to build a Monster...You could think of ways to be faster...Examples: Lighter car, Different gearing, Better tires, Your driving skills, Etc..... I myself own a Boosted car and a N/A car... One of the first things I think about is putting power to the Ground.. I like all around Power for the most part so Big Boost in my 240 would be no fun... It would make BIG power yes but only good for the nothing... I like driving my cars daily... ;) .. With N/A you can be fast and I think we have people to prove this.. You have to have a Plan.. Its this a street car ? Are you going to drive it Daily ?...Is it your only car ? Etc... Alot goes into anybuild and I would take ether one.. You have to find a Happy Meduim.... For the most part people don't have a clue what it takes to make power and the rely on The internet or other people to copy off of.. Not saying its a bad thing because we all need help... You just can't expect your car to be what HIS is... Anyways IMO.. I see just as much in both N/A and Boost Monsters... Theres alot more to just bolting on parts And I hope poeple will understand this... :goodjob:



true, true

but on the turbo kit part - thats mostly the N/A crowd going turbo ( talking general here )

but generally speaking, people who buy an FI car already ( like me, 1439/2000, or ppl who swap to an FI engine ) - they build their own setup piece by piece


IMO, I think the largest plus about an FI over an N/A is that FI is adjustable by boost setting ( i.e drive @ 15psi everyday, go to the track/dyno, crank up to 25psi, rip off some nice 1/4s or HP #s, then turn it back down ) whereas N/A, you're stuck with what you got - which could result in a faster wear down on engine components

[Hondatwin23]

if he kept snapping axles at the track he didnt build it up enough or right - which results in a waste of money lol

because axles broke its not built right ? please explain.
also please remember people buy and work on their cars they way they want to. did i agree with him to have such a setup ? who cares its his money so fcuk it.

[BABY J]

U want a "fuse" in the driveline... and axles is the cheapest driveline part to replace... but still you should not be snapping them every run.

[93H22ACX]

+1. Yeah. Guys kill me w/ that... "I spun 1st through 4th, I would have won if it wasn't for that!" LOL. :jerkit: That is a poorly engineered setup any way you slice it, or an overly agressive driver... either way, YOU LOST so what's the point? LOL

i wouldnt say its a poorly engineered setup. reason is some people need to test out different suspension, tire materials, tire sizes, boost levels in different gears, etc,etc, etc to see what works and what dont work. the people who dont know about that needs help from experienced people.

but yeah if you loose, you loose.

[93H22ACX]

Theres alot more to just bolting on parts And I hope poeple will understand this... :goodjob:

this is what i was trying to say earlier :D :goodjob:

[1civic]

U want a "fuse" in the driveline... and axles is the cheapest driveline part to replace... but still you should not be snapping them every run.

Yes this is true and most of the BIG money cars have Adjustable Clutchs... They PreSet each one to slip so much.... I have broke alot of them and none of my Hondas have had big power... You learn alot over time and now I could keep a set alot longer... ;) .. But you are right about a FUSE... :goodjob:
They are alot cheaper than a Tranny or even a Diff.

[1civic]

i wouldnt say its a poorly engineered setup. reason is some people need to test out different suspension, tire materials, tire sizes, boost levels in different gears, etc,etc, etc to see what works and what dont work. the people who dont know about that needs help from experienced people.

but yeah if you loose, you loose.


How true you are... If only People knew how important it was to gear your car for your HP curve... So much goes in to this... I myself would rather start low in HP and then go up working on Different ways to keep the power on the ground... You can have 1000 Hp But if it don't stick it don't make since.. :lmfao: .. On the other note.. Street car or not you have limits to going fast.. N/A or Boost.. You can be beat by a lower HP car if my factors play... ;)

[B18c1Turboed]

Yes this is true and most of the BIG money cars have Adjustable Clutchs... They PreSet each one to slip so much.... I have broke alot of them and none of my Hondas have had big power... You learn alot over time and now I could keep a set alot longer... ;) .. But you are right about a FUSE... :goodjob:
They are alot cheaper than a Tranny or even a Diff.


What kinda honda do you drive? one with a V8? Adjustable Clutchs?
Hmm.. we all have twin disck clutchs none are adjustable the pedal is tough!!

[1civic]

What kinda honda do you drive? one with a V8? Adjustable Clutchs?
Hmm.. we all have twin disck clutchs none are adjustable the pedal is tough!!


Well I was not meaning on a Street car....I mean't the Dragsters or funny cars and shit like that... The cars with a Power Glid... :goodjob:.. 2 speed trans, RACE CARS... :D......... REAL ONES.... :bigok:

[MajinB]

i think you have to look at EVERY seperate case on its own. like my d17 aint shit until i slap a turbo on it. any d seires almost. and if you get the whole TODA kit for the k20 then you can throw down alot of N/a power. it depends on the specific application. i am working on putting together a turbo setup for my car. but i won't say one way or the other. it all depends on what you want. all of it. 1/4 mile times are made eaiser for boosted motors, but in autocross and such it could be a problem.
i think if N/a setups are done right they can be better then boosted setups. i mean for example, you have the WRX and the RSX-R. both have the same HP rating but the WRX is turboed. on one side, you have to wait for the revs to climb about 5k RPMS and up for the type R.(idk when the vtec crossover is on the type R but lets use 5krpms as an example.) after that its all gravy, cause its in its "sweet spot"
the WRX will have boost lag. not alot but some. its awd. so there is more drivetrain loss, and that does matter. it relys on the turbo for all the power, and if anything happens to it then the car is useless.
i think everything has advantages and disadvantages. and i think its all personal preference.

[LS2ner]

i think you have to look at EVERY seperate case on its own. like my d17 aint shit until i slap a turbo on it. any d seires almost. and if you get the whole TODA kit for the k20 then you can throw down alot of N/a power. it depends on the specific application. i am working on putting together a turbo setup for my car. but i won't say one way or the other. it all depends on what you want. all of it. 1/4 mile times are made eaiser for boosted motors, but in autocross and such it could be a problem.
i think if N/a setups are done right they can be better then boosted setups. i mean for example, you have the WRX and the RSX-R. both have the same HP rating but the WRX is turboed. on one side, you have to wait for the revs to climb about 5k RPMS and up for the type R.(idk when the vtec crossover is on the type R but lets use 5krpms as an example.) after that its all gravy, cause its in its "sweet spot"
the WRX will have boost lag. not alot but some. its awd. so there is more drivetrain loss, and that does matter. it relys on the turbo for all the power, and if anything happens to it then the car is useless.
i think everything has advantages and disadvantages. and i think its all personal preference.


Dude....What you just said was retarded. Im just now joining this debate. Ur analogy to the rsx and the wrx is also retarded. First...the wrx doesnt have a huge turbo factory. They're rated in the mid 200's in horsepower aswell. You will have some power loss in the drivetrain BUT you make up for it with traction. With the RSX you have the k20. They are rated at like 220 to the flywheel? maybe 200. The race wont be one sided either way but ur examples suck. The WRX will pull hard on the RSX from launch but top end it will lack due to awd. My take on it is that either way you go it requires alot of engineering. Boosting, you have to take into consideration of natural wear and tear just as you do with NA. If you wanna push big boost you HAVE to have some kind of upgraded bottom end... or you motor wont last long. NA..you do aswell because you cant rev that high and not expect to have valve float or to spin a bearing. Either way their both hard. Tho to pull alot of power out of a NA you gotta do crazy shit, instead of burning up boost or bolting on a larger DP =P Oh and just to point out more of your mistakes...Yes the fastest 1320 times are boosted...but there are till sub 10sec NA cares... look at skunk2 RSX. Oh...and "Slapping in a TODA stroker kit to make big NA power" was retarded to. You can make just as much doing your own set-up. Anyways...im probably wrong on some of this shit but fuck it.

[Stormhammer]

VATTAC FOR THE MOTHERFUCKING WIN!


oh wait, I drive a mitsu :(

[MajinB]

Dude....What you just said was retarded.
ok, you said it alot better. it was my take on it. yours is about the same.

[afwfjustin]

N/A all the way

[LS2ner]

ok, you said it alot better. it was my take on it. yours is about the same.


overall take maybe....