Christians...do you drink?

[Romeyo07]

What do you believe?

[andrewkd16]

I dont believe drinking itself is sin, but i do believe any essesive drinking or to much dependency to it is very unhealthy and would be considered a sin............................................... .................................................. ..........it also leds to more sins

[Georgiaman]

It also says in the bible to not harm your body which alcohol does to it in large amounts

[Romeyo07]

so does overeating, mal-nutrition, smoking, body piercing, tattoos, bad hygene, etc.

Where does it say in the bible not to harm your body? I think you're wording that wrong.

[GTScoob]

I know a lot of very conservative Baptist churches frown on drinking. My ex's sister was an associate pastor at a very large church in Fayetteville and she would always make my ex use her fake ID in order to buy alcohol so that nobody else would find out.

More hypocritical Christian antics.

[The Yousef]

i don't drink....but i'm a Muslim :goodjob:

[metalman]

The Bible says your body is the temple of God. Simply put, why would you purposefully destroy God's dwelling place with anything? Can a foggy mind or destroyed brain cells lead to anything good? We are stewards pf the things God has Created and given us, including our bodies. All will answer for their stewardship. With regard to alchohol the Bible says "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise".

[Georgiaman]

Wisely Put Metalman

[babygurl]

Well you also have to take into account, that also it does state in the bible that God gives you free will to choose your own path.

As far as drinking, Jesus drank himself, but he didnt get drunk. So honestly drinking a few wont harm anyone. Drinking a few times a week is actually healthy for you.

[metalman]

Well you also have to take into account, that also it does state in the bible that God gives you free will to choose your own path.

As far as drinking, Jesus drank himself, but he didnt get drunk. So honestly drinking a few wont harm anyone. Drinking a few times a week is actually healthy for you.

Indeed. Choice and freewill are certainly part of the plan. Thats why I mentioned stewardship which is an INDIVIDUAL matter. :)

As for Jesus and drinking, there is alot of confusion with regard to the word "wine" in the Bible. The word from which wine is translated can refer to both fermented and non fermented varietys which were common in that time.
We know that non fermented grapes are beneficial to humans. We also know that fermented ones are not so good. Something to consider.

Also, one might consider the the example of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who along with Daniel refused to drink the Babylonian wine and eat their unlcean foods and then when they were tested were found to be seven times wiser and more healthy.
Like the saying goes, you are what you eat (and drink) ;)

[Jason04srt4]

I hardly ever drink. LOL, I'm a lightweight, one smirnoff and I'm good for the night

[trini_gsr]

I
As for Jesus and drinking, there is alot of confusion with regard to the word "wine" in the Bible. The word from which wine is translated can refer to both fermented and non fermented varietys which were common in that time.
We know that non fermented grapes are beneficial to humans. We also know that fermented ones are not so good. Something to consider.



i think it's safe to assume that the wine Jesus made from water was indeed alcoholic (John 2:7-10):

7Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim. 8Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet." They did so, 9and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."

This suggests that the normal practice at these functions was to get ppl tipsy with the good/strong stuff, then send out the cheap stuff for them to drink once they were already intoxicated.

If the wine weren't alcoholic, then the last statement about having "too much to drink" wouldn't make any sense. Too much plain ole grape juice isn't gonna cloud anyone's judgement :D

with most things in life, the key is moderation...

[metalman]

Think and "assume" whatever you wish but keep in mind when Jeus was offered fermented wine when suffering he refused it once he realized what it was.

You also have to "assume" along with your hypothesis that Jesus, the Creator of Life, was instrumental in giving out a poison that is harmful to judgement, body, and mind. Not too logical really.

But I have heard your assumption put forth before.

[metalman]

Also consider this...

And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

Thats about 180 gallons of wine, enough to get everyone completely obliterated & hammered
When you then consider other parts of God's Word that doesnt make sense:

Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken...
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit...

Assume whatever you wish but I think Jesus, the Author of the Word, would have kept His own word. ;)

[trini_gsr]

if you don't think that's logical...then *please* give me a better and more reasonable explanation for the verses I posted above. it seems pretty straightforward to me...

just food for thought...some believe Jesus was a Nazirite, like John the Baptist...so if you buy into that theory, that's another plausible explanation as to why he refused the wine.

[trini_gsr]

Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken...
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit...


look at the key words in this verse you quoted. DRUNK with wine. the idea is not to get *intoxicated* with liquor, which comes from *excessive* drinking. seems pretty clear.

question is, at what point does one become intoxicated? when is it too much? that varies from person to person, and some might decide to not go into the gray area and abstain altogether. still doesn't make it wrong...

[metalman]

I think the verses you quoted could just as easily refer to quality. Fermentation doesnt have to even be a part of it. New wine, or fresh squeezed juice was the best, also the most difficult to obtain in quantity. No wonder those who tasted it (what Christ made miraculously) found it to be better then the average stuff they'd been served first. He certainly wouldnt have done a miracle to create stale juice.

Also, the notion placed upon these verses is out of harmony with the rest of Scripture, which is quite logical to me. Its always best to take a total of Scripture before arriving at a conclusion. This common view that you presented also represents our modern view of the word "wine" which always refers to fermented beverage.

[metalman]

oops..dble post

[metalman]

look at the key words in this verse you quoted. DRUNK with wine. the idea is not to get *intoxicated* with liquor, which comes from *excessive* drinking. seems pretty clear.


180 gallons would have been more then enough ;)

[trini_gsr]

i see what you're getting at...and i believe your point of view is plausible. i'm just saying that the other is equally plausible and defensible as well. fermentation doesn't HAVE to be a part of it but it COULD be. plus it doesn't explain why master of ceremonies would make a comment like "...too much to drink". how does that phrase make any sense if we're talking about regular juice??? sorry but i don't see it...

besides, 180 gallons of any kind of juice or even water is plenty for folks to be drinking, lol. unless the bride was real popular and she had hundreds and hundreds of guests ;)

[metalman]

Booze in the Bible...

The first reference to wine is found in Genesis when Noah, after the Flood, had a few. "Then he drank of the wine and was drunk, and became uncovered in his tent" Noah drank and stumbled around naked and exposed himself to his sons. This experiment with booze ended with a scathing curse falling on Noah's son and children.

Lot also drank, and he was therefore easily seduced into having incestuous relations with his daughters. "So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose". The offspring of this relationship became the nations of Moab and Amnon, the mortal enemies of God's people. Gettin boozed up and gettin laid is quite a normal thing throughout history.

Then there is the infamous experience when the children of Israel drank alcohol, got naked, and worshiped a golden calf. This booze party ended in a horrible massacre.

Amnon, a son of David, raped his half-sister Tamar after a few belts. Because of this, he lost his life at the hands of his enraged brother while intoxicated.

Given these facts and the council of the Bible regarding booze it seems illogical to me that Jesus the Saviour made 180 gallons of booze for a party after the folks had already drunk all of the booze in the house. But maybe thats just me. :)

[metalman]

i see what you're getting at...and i believe your point of view is plausible.

Well at least you see where I am coming from....thats more then some folks can I suppose. :D

[trini_gsr]

good points about the booze. i've heard the same line of thought put forward about celebrating birthdays too.

there's only 2 instances of birthday celebrations in the Bible...the Pharaoh's birthday and Herod's. and on both, someone innocent was beheaded, the cupbearer dude and John the Baptist, respectively. so does this mean we shouldn't celebrate birthdays?

and you still haven't given me another possible meaning for the MC's statement about "too much to drink". what other context could that statement be applied to?

[green91]

im thankful that i dont have to go by bible rubbish to tell me what i can and cant do with my life

[metalman]

good points about the booze. i've heard the same line of thought put forward about celebrating birthdays too.

there's only 2 instances of birthday celebrations in the Bible...the Pharaoh's birthday and Herod's. and on both, someone innocent was beheaded, the cupbearer dude and John the Baptist, respectively. so does this mean we shouldn't celebrate birthdays?


First you didnt hear any such thing from me.
Second, that isnt even close to the "same line of thought" but something completely different. Interesting subject shift.

The examples given are certainly not the only examples of drink in the Bible.
I simply cited a couple and pointed out that given the general overall history of drinking alcohol and its typical results and the numerous Biblical instructions against it, it would therefore be highly unlikely and illogical and that Christ the Creator, who would have mankind be clear minded and sober, would make booze for people at a party who had already consumed all the alchohol in sight. I am somewhat suprised to be defending the sobriety of Christ when the Bible clearly teaches the principle of sobriety.

As already mentioned Scripture also teaches that the body is the temple of God. With that in mind it is again illogical that the Creator of that temple, who's Spirit wishes to inhabit that body temple would say, hey, I know I said booze was bad and all but since you drank everything in sight heres another 180 gallons for all you schnockered party goers.




and you still haven't given me another possible meaning for the MC's statement about "too much to drink". what other context could that statement be applied to?

Well I did but lets have at it again.
Your assumption is that "too much to drink" conveys only alcoholic beverage is based upon our notion regarding the word wine. It is customary to serve the best food/drink first at a catered party, when people have eaten/drank their fill then food/drink items of lesser quality are then served for any lesser remaining hunger/thirst. I have seen this time and again at many parties.

[metalman]

im thankful that i dont have to go by bible rubbish to tell me what i can and cant do with my life

thankful to whom?

One mans rubbish is another mans treasure. Some travelers like to utilize a compass to gain a sense of direction rather then wandering aimlessly in circles. But to each his own.

[trini_gsr]

First you didnt hear any such thing from me.
Second, that isnt even close to the "same line of thought" but something completely different. Interesting subject shift.

wasn't trying to change the subject, nor did i say it came from you, just making an observation and asking for your take on it. you quoted examples of how drinking was involved in some bad things happening to ppl in the Bible. i quoted the only 2 examples of birthday celebrations in the bible, both with less than happy endings as well, and asked for your opinion about it. usually you don't have a problem sharing your views :D


Well I did but lets have at it again.
Your assumption is that "too much to drink" conveys only alcoholic beverage is based upon our notion regarding the word wine. It is customary to serve the best food/drink first at a catered party, when people have eaten/drank their fill then food/drink items of lesser quality are then served for any lesser remaining hunger/thirst. I have seen this time and again at many parties.

sorry...but there are some glaring holes in your argument here. first you say I am making an assumption about "too much to drink" referring to our modern notion of wine, but yet you turn right around and do the very same thing by making the comment about what's "customary" at catered parties and what you've SEEN at parties. lol.

personally, i've seen the exact opposite at catered parties. appetizers, finger foods, and salads are usually served first with punch or something else cheap to make a lot of. this will be the staple drink of the night. then you get the main course, at which point the champagne/wine is served for a toast. after that, you get dessert, and more of the bubbly if you want. the caterer will plan to make enough food to feed precisely the amount of ppl scheduled to attend. it's pretty organised and controlled. usually you are charged per person/plate. and if there's a bar, they're usually charging on an individual basis anyways :D

and up to now, you still have yet to explain what ELSE the phrase "too much to drink" could have possibly meant to the Jews during this time period. it just doesn't fit with the explanation you offered. maybe others are getting it and i'm just slow...

lemme word it differently...what does it mean to the 1st century Jews (or to ANYBODY for that matter) to have "too much" of a non-alcoholic beverage??? and in what way would having "too much" of such a beverage make you more accepting of an inferior drink??? sorry but it just doesn't add up.

again...your explanation is definitely plausible but you have to give some credence to the other side of the argument as well. that's all i'm saying.

[babowc]

drinking is fine in the bible, as long as you arent drunk.
i dotn know where it states it nor the full verse, but it is said in same meaning.

why do you think jesus turned water into wine?

[Romeyo07]

why wouldn't it be called juice instead of wine...I do believe they knew the difference

I don't think with such a popular topic (since a lot of people drink) that the bible would be vague on what the miracle actual was, that of making wine out of the water. I don't believe it was juice. Gluttony is also a sin, but because we're having a feast it's ok to have a table full of food?

I think this is one of the situations that shows that God gives us a choice. I believe he turned the water to wine, not juice (which proves Jesus was black! jk) He left the moderation of their alcohol intake up to them. Wine seems to be accepted only when self control is involved.

There's a difference between me having a beer because I had a bad day and having a beer at a bbq.

[metalman]

why wouldn't it be called juice instead of wine...I do believe they knew the difference
.

Indeed THEY knew the difference. Its the translation causing us the difficulty...along with our modern conception of the word "wine"
There is only one word in the greek that was translated to english. That same word refers to any fruit of the vine whether fermented or not.

In some cases the Bible clearly indicates "new wine" which is not fermented.
In others its more ambiguious becase of the translation.

[metalman]

drinking is fine in the bible, as long as you arent drunk.


How much does it take to be "drunk"??
This logic is a slippery slope.

I have seen published facts such as...
Tests show that after drinking 36oz of beer, there is an average of 13 percent net memory loss.

Trained typists were tested after a drink and their errors increased 40 percent.

Only one ounce of alcohol increases the time required to make a decision by nearly 10 percent; hinders muscular reaction by 17 percent; increases errors due to lack of attention by 35 percent by and 60 percent due to lack of muscular coordination.

Does one need to be puking in the toilet to be considered "drunk"?
I have done my share of drinking, I am quite familiar with it. It only takes a small amount of alchohol for a person to be inebriated to some degree.
So how "drunk" does a person have to be to be considered "drunk"?
Inebriation is just that, whether a little or alot.


why do you think jesus turned water into wine?

Well the question is what kind of "wine" did Jesus make. One that inebriated people or who would have already been so since they consumed all the wine (if it was alcohol) in sight, OR was it simply fresh fruit of the vine, which is in keeping with every Scriptural principle about alcohol.

[trini_gsr]

lemme word it differently...what does it mean to the 1st century Jews (or to ANYBODY for that matter) to have "too much" of a non-alcoholic beverage??? and in what way would having "too much" of such a beverage make you more accepting of an inferior drink??? sorry but it just doesn't add up.



you still haven't answered these questions. i'm not letting you off the hook that easily :D

[metalman]

wasn't trying to change the subject, nor did i say it came from you, just making an observation and asking for your take on it. you quoted examples of how drinking was involved in some bad things happening to ppl in the Bible. i quoted the only 2 examples of birthday celebrations in the bible, both with less than happy endings as well, and asked for your opinion about it. usually you don't have a problem sharing your views :D


Actually I dont have a problem sharing. But your statement was that the anti-birthday crowd uses the same line of thought to condemn birthday partys as I was to defend the sobriety of Christ and THAT is not correct. The Bible contains abundantly CLEAR instruction with rergard to alcohol. It contains NO such instruction with regard to birthdays. I have noticed in my discussions with you that when faced with an argument that has merit you tend to shift the subject so I simply try to keep the discussion on topic...which in addition to Huluds question is...did Jesus make booze for drunken party goers.





and up to now, you still have yet to explain what ELSE the phrase "too much to drink" could have possibly meant to the Jews during this time period. it just doesn't fit with the explanation you offered. maybe others are getting it and i'm just slow...


It fits it just that youre stuck on the phrase "too much". This is understandable given our modern idea pertaining to "wine". Have you studied into the original text for a closer meaning? Its quite clear to me that one can have too much, or their fill, or be full, from anything whether it be fermented or not.

If you follow your premise of "too much" booze, again we would be faced with the picture that Jesus Christ, who is NOT the author of confusion, and IS the Author of Scriptural principle, would have supplied liquor to those who already had "too much to drink" which would be highly unethical and certianly not in keeping with Scriptures pertaining to stronk drink. The logic here works fine. I am saying there is no way Christ supplied booze to the drunken. In fact this accusation was one His enemies made of him, that He was a drunkard and a winebibber. Not true!

I realize many may remain unconvinced, thats okay, I can accept that.

[trini_gsr]

if i remember right, we've only been in a discussion once or twice before ;). and like the last time, i think we'll just agree to disagree on this. as i've said a couple times already, your point of view certainly makes sense...it's probably the safest and most sensible view to hold. but there is merit to the other side of the argument. and i think that's been clearly demonstrated. it's up to the believer to decide...whatever leaves him with a clear conscience...

lol...for the record i should say that i like the couple of discussions we've had because it challenges me (and hopefully others) to really think about these subjects on a deeper level, rather than just accepting blindly. a lot of people have discussions about religion, but aren't really willing to change or modify their positions. personally, i'm always willing to learn...and i try to walk away with something from every intelligent discussion...

i'm still kinda new to IA so...i'm sure we'll bump heads again :goodjob:

[metalman]

for the record i should say that i like the couple of discussions we've had because it challenges me (and hopefully others) to really think about these subjects on a deeper level, rather than just accepting blindly. a lot of people have discussions about religion, but aren't really willing to change or modify their positions. personally, i'm always willing to learn...and i try to walk away with something from every intelligent discussion...

i'm still kinda new to IA so...i'm sure we'll bump heads again :goodjob:

I agree. "Bumping heads" as you put, or exchanging thoughtful ideas, can be generally benificial to those that engage in it with any degree of open mind.
I am no exception.

[{X}Echo419]

How much does it take to be "drunk"??
This logic is a slippery slope.

I have seen published facts such as...
Tests show that after drinking 36oz of beer, there is an average of 13 percent net memory loss.

Trained typists were tested after a drink and their errors increased 40 percent.

Only one ounce of alcohol increases the time required to make a decision by nearly 10 percent; hinders muscular reaction by 17 percent; increases errors due to lack of attention by 35 percent by and 60 percent due to lack of muscular coordination.

Does one need to be puking in the toilet to be considered "drunk"?
I have done my share of drinking, I am quite familiar with it. It only takes a small amount of alchohol for a person to be inebriated to some degree.
So how "drunk" does a person have to be to be considered "drunk"?
Inebriation is just that, whether a little or alot.



Well the question is what kind of "wine" did Jesus make. One that inebriated people or who would have already been so since they consumed all the wine (if it was alcohol) in sight, OR was it simply fresh fruit of the vine, which is in keeping with every Scriptural principle about alcohol.

that's only b/c the typists wanted to get the hell out of the test so they could have more beer :lmfao:

[metalman]

that's only b/c the typists wanted to get the hell out of the test so they could have more beer :lmfao:

:D prolly so!

[Dark.GEAR]

not trying to be a b*tch here but...(here comes the flaming after this)....there are truely no REAL Christians that I have seen or met.....
they are too caught up in the moment and really never think about their "sins" while they are committing it (getting drunk and lieing for example) THEN wants their souls saved by confessing or what not. So they don't really follow what they believe...or more so they change what Christianity is TRULY about and live their life around that...AS LONG AS THEIR SOUL IS SAVED AND END UP IN HEAVEN...in the end (death) which is really sad
So whats the difference with just 1 more sin...?

like i said...maybe this is just my situation...someone's experience with Christians could be different



Please don't kill me...LOL :D....truly not tryin to be mean or anything

[chuck]

not trying to be a b*tch here but...(here comes the flaming after this)....there are truely no REAL Christians that I have seen or met.....
they are too caught up in the moment and really never think about their "sins" while they are committing it (getting drunk and lieing for example) THEN wants their souls saved by confessing or what not. So they don't really follow what they believe...or more so they change what Christianity is TRULY about and live their life around that...AS LONG AS THEIR SOUL IS SAVED AND END UP IN HEAVEN...in the end (death) which is really sad
So whats the difference with just 1 more sin...?

like i said...maybe this is just my situation...someone's experience with Christians could be different



Please don't kill me...LOL :D....truly not tryin to be mean or anything

from the sound of it i'm guessing you are catholic??? just a guess though.

but yeah, there are a lot of real christians out there, i know of 100's 1st hand i could introduce you to. if you want to talk about "real christians" vs. hyprocracy (why i left the church in the first place) then you have a whole new can of worms, a whole new subject and a whole new thread...lets just stick to the topic at hand now, but feel free to start a new thread



and yes, the bible says not to "practice drunkenness"....by definition the word drunkenness refers to drinking out of habit and drinking to an extent of loosing motor skills...


-thessalonians mentions being sober and 'abstaining for the appearance of evil'
-all through proverbs, luke, john, etc there are several mentions of god forbidding drunkenness but never a mention not to drink that comes from god.


but even the bible itself could be considered by some somewhat conflicting over the issue, but we also have to remember that 2000 years ago and even 200 years ago there was a completely different view on the use of wines and alchy...like the medecinal uses and such....
in timothy and titus (1st tim, chap 3) paul mentions that in order to qualify for a person to be an elder they must be sober and "not given to wine"....but just a few chapters later in timothy (1st timmy, chapt 5) you can see paul suggesting that timothy drink some wine for his upset stomach.

but also, who knows how strong the wine was back then, and how much you had to drink to be "drunk" . some historians think that the wine was very weak and that someone could only become "drunk" after 5-6 hours of straight drinking


i could go on and on about what the bible says but the beauty of it all is that we can all choose to do whatever we want...what you believe is up to you, and no one else has the right to try to persuade you otherwise :drunk:




and no, i don't consider myself a christian...so if you see me out, keep the hypocrit comments to yourself or come share a beer :cheers:

[ReCkLe5s]

bible by my bed and a bottle in the freezer.. have i gotten drunk oh yeah but not to the point of not knowing what im doing. or passing out. i hate people who look down on people who drink. wtf is there problem..

[CSquared]

^Cory Feldman?

[biblethumper]

I dont believe that drinking in itself is a sin but what you do while you are intoxicated could be.

[halfshaft5]

Well stated, also you must not help others stumble!!!!!