Potential problems w/ the supra- Flammers please stay out SERIOUS THREAD

[The Ren]

Well as everyone knows.. I ran a 15.1 at the track this weekend.. and I was searching on Mkiv.com and supraforums on normal track times and dynos for a BPU AUTO supra cause the 15.1 just didnt seem right to me.. Well I found some interesting stuff.. This is one of the many comments I got from alot of the guys on there (and all the comments say pretty much the same thing)...

Ren,

Yes your conclusion is correct! Something is wrong with your car:
338RWHP! that is just downpipe mod let alone full bpu!

You dyno'ed 338 then you have also lost more power then that now. 99.5 Trap you are lucky to have 270RWHP (that is less then stock). Even at 338 (which again is very low) you should be aroun 112 in an auto.

Check this recent threat about a low dyno:

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=358483 (http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358483)

Here are some basics:

Boost Leak
Plugs (heat range or 2 colder and gap them down)
turbo on it's way out
Low compression motor (at 338HP has to VERY low @ 18psi)
Wastegate spring weak (spring mod)
Or you have a BPU'ed++ 7MGTE in your MK4 http://www.supraforums.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

As an Auto BPU you should have no less then 400RWHP @ 18psi with 93-94 octane.

Thanks,
( I am keeping the name out of this for now)

I will keep everyone informed on what we figure out...

[fight club]

hmmm damn, i hope everything gets worked out, i did think that trap was low, hope its an easy fix!

[The Ren]

So Do I.. I kept looking at my slip.. and as shitty as my 60' was.. 15.1 just didnt seem right when the NA supra in front of me ran a 16.1... I really hope its just a boost leak or something. What kills me is when I bought the car the owner was very upfront about everything and everything checked out. He also told me they had done a compression test previously and everything was good to go.. so when I bought it I never did one.. Now im thinking that was a huge mistake..

[fight club]

it sounds more like boost leak or spark problems then compression. what was ur 60 fter if u dont mind me asking?

[fight club]

also, mods to the car at time of run?

[The Ren]

also, mods to the car at time of run?

'93 Octane gas
Mods:
RMM Dp
HKS superdragger
GReddy BCC
HKS EVC
Random Technology Hi Flow Cat 3" cat
Aluminum Hardpipes to the SMIC
(I have other mods but these seem to be the ones that count)

and my 60' was a 2.7

[fight club]

hmmmm. it deff doesnt sound like ur makin the power you should like the guy on supraforums.com told you. i dont think it sounds like compression problems tho. boost leak sounds reasonable. oh, and dont let people hate, thats not a bad 60ft for ur first time. :goodjob:

[The Ren]

hmmmm. it deff doesnt sound like ur makin the power you should like the guy on supraforums.com told you. i dont think it sounds like compression problems tho. boost leak sounds reasonable. oh, and dont let people hate, thats not a bad 60ft for ur first time. :goodjob:

Aww thanks! Im really hoping thats what it is.. The HKS EVC is the first one so its like 12 years old.. So Im wondering if maybe it could be the boost controller. When I turned it on I didnt feel my car any faster, it actually felt like it lagged more (not sure if thats how its supposed to feel).. I just want to get my car working right..

[fight club]

with a higher boost level id assume the transition from full boost to no boost <shift point> would lag more in an auto since u cant rev match, stay in boost. hmmmm. this is intriguing keep us posted!

[The Ren]

with a higher boost level id assume the transition from full boost to no boost <shift point> would lag more. hmmmm. this is intriguing keep us posted!

I definatly will.. The day we fixed my boost controller (it was hooked up wrong when I bought the darn car) we dyno'd my car a few times.. and here is one of the better dyno's of the day

[Stormhammer]

definitely check all your hoses - esp the vacuum ones
also it'd help to check your spark plugs ( have you ever changed them since you've gotten the car? they were one of the few reasons why my car had only put out 202hp when cars with less mods were putting out like 257 )

-edit- another thing - check your A/F ratios, see if they're way out of line or anything ( just assuming since I didnt see anything about aftermarket a/f stuff )

[The Ren]

I just replaced my spark plugs in feb

[The Ren]

My car is completely untuned as well

[fight club]

that could have something to do with ur low power levels. im not sure how supras specifically react to tuning but i bet with a good tuner u could get ur power levels where they should be.

[PSINXS]

yes get tuned and get some colder plugs. 7 or 8 range for cars with mods. 8s are normally on cars with nitrous.

[CSquared]

Or you have a BPU'ed++ 7MGTE in your MK4 [img]

:(

[Stormhammer]

well if its untuned, get it tuned first - your A/F might just be off

my car was running 4-5bar ( 25% over ) rich.... lol

[HiPSI]

with a higher boost level id assume the transition from full boost to no boost <shift point> would lag more in an auto since u cant rev match, stay in boost. hmmmm. this is intriguing keep us posted!


there is no transition with an auto. you put your foot to the floor and hold it until the end of the strip, you don't let up for the auto to shift.

[CSquared]

Just out of curiousity karen... are you powerbraking on the launches?

My first time out to the track sucked... nevermind the fact that i had an intermittent headgasket leak... I've really learned how to drive the car since then. It doesn't explain why you are putting down so little power, but maybe you were just getting some really shitty launches.

[1439/2000]

It doesnt matter if your tuned. You put out more power than stock, a stock car runs faster. That has nothing to do with a tune. 340 hp untuned> 276 stock. You make more power thats what is important.

I think you need more time at the track.

[Negrodamus]

I think you need more time at the track.
yes

[ECMgarrett]

im sure this is a dumb question, but how do you get better 60s in an auto car? i mean, its just putting the right foot down. dont have to worry as much about revs at launch or how to work the clutch

[HiPSI]

im sure this is a dumb question, but how do you get better 60s in an auto car? i mean, its just putting the right foot down. dont have to worry as much about revs at launch or how to work the clutch


you can "torque launch" the car by holding the brake pedal and gas at the same time. this will built boost on the line and load up the tires/suspension for launch.

the 2.76 60' time could only be attributed to easing off the line very slowly and not really getting into it, because that car should pull an easy 2.4 or so just by flooring it from the get-go... the auto tranny would keep traction and not require any special pedalwork to keep it going. going on the same numbers, the biggest problem sounds like your right foot over anything else.

[Xrated O.G.]

you can "torque launch" the car by holding the brake pedal and gas at the same time. this will built boost on the line and load up the tires/suspension for launch.

the 2.76 60' time could only be attributed to easing off the line very slowly and not really getting into it, because that car should pull an easy 2.4 or so just by flooring it from the get-go... the auto tranny would keep traction and not require any special pedalwork to keep it going. going on the same numbers, the biggest problem sounds like your right foot over anything else.




Very well said... Just remember that "practice makes perfect".... Now that your living in my area you are a hell of a lot closer to the track. That means you dont have any reason not to be nailing the tree...Hit me up if you wanna practice some launches...

[The Ren]

Very well said... Just remember that "practice makes perfect".... Now that your living in my area you are a hell of a lot closer to the track. That means you dont have any reason not to be nailing the tree...Hit me up if you wanna practice some launches...

Hell yeah.. tell me when and where and Im there

[Vteckidd]

POST THE A/F RATIO OTHERWISE THAT DYNO IS WORTHLESS

[Vteckidd]

Spool time, DRIVER SKILL has alot to do with it. If your not making the power that you should, well , then we need to see the a/f ratio. You SHOULD be making around 350-400 give or take with those mods. I know our single turbo 2JZ makes 417whp on 15psi. Its a single with EMS, but everything else is stock, it ran 13.0 with no second gear at commerce, it runs 11.5s now (granted this is a much lighter 240sx chasis but still)

STOCK STOCK SUpras should still run mid 14s with ease. Making 350whp you should be in the 13s ESPECIALLY with a RWD car. Brake boost at the line an get your 60 fott down.

[Vteckidd]

also, i dont think your making tons less power than you should. we will have to see the rest of the dyno to see what it looks like.

[The Ren]

also, i dont think your making tons less power than you should. we will have to see the rest of the dyno to see what it looks like.
We Never did my a/f when we did the dyno.. but we will find out tommorow how everything looks..

[Vteckidd]

ouch, you NEED to do A/F on any car, even the tailpipe sniffer, expecially if you have a car you have never run before.

i remember your car, that thing smoked like a freight train. it was running RICH as hell, which will make your turbo spool slower, an your power stay down.

TUNING , all the mods in hte world mean NOTHING without tuning. Ditch all the bullshit electronics. Use your Greddy Boost COntroller an a SAFC, keep it simple, you arent making 1000whp an you wont make 600whp. You can make 400whp with a SAFC an a Boost Controller, we have done it several times. Ditch all that other crap, make some money, an go make some power, youll be MUCH happier i guarantee it

[The Ren]

Well here is the result... On the compression test valves 1-3 were between 160 and 165, valve #4-120, Valve #5-162, & Valve #6-155

[TIGERJC]

piston ring :doh:

[The Ren]

piston ring :doh:

yep.. and right now I dont have the money to rip apart the black

[CSquared]

The civic still running at least?

[The Ren]

The civic still running at least?


yeah we got that fixed a few weeks back.. 120 isnt horrible.. but i definatly have to keep low boost for now on.. I am still ganna go single like i wanted and when/if it drops to low 100s or below, I plan on building the engine...

[Vteckidd]

the VALVES? or the CYLINDER?

do a leak down, i would like to know more before i tore into a motor making 350whp UNTUNED

[The Ren]

the VALVES? or the CYLINDER?

do a leak down, i would like to know more before i tore into a motor making 350whp UNTUNED


Well like I said for the immediate future Im not too worried about it.. unless it drops below 110.. Im ganna continue doing the same thing as usual.. specially since I never drive w/ the boost controller on

[Vteckidd]

does it burn oil? what im saying is, a COMPRESSION test will give you a number. It doesnt tell you whats wrong with it.

for instance, you could have a bent valve or a bad piston. A leakdown will tell you the amount of air getting past the particular cylinder. an tell you if its the bottom end or the top end.

i guess i have heard how so many Supra motors especailly TURBO GTEs are indestructable an good for 600whp, i find it EXTREMELY hard to beleive your bottom end went out.

You need to know what a/f ratio you are at, perhaps is so rich it washed a ring out. you need more info before you decide to rebuild it.

ask more questions get more info

[The Ren]

does it burn oil? what im saying is, a COMPRESSION test will give you a number. It doesnt tell you whats wrong with it.

for instance, you could have a bent valve or a bad piston. A leakdown will tell you the amount of air getting past the particular cylinder. an tell you if its the bottom end or the top end.

i guess i have heard how so many Supra motors especailly TURBO GTEs are indestructable an good for 600whp, i find it EXTREMELY hard to beleive your bottom end went out.

You need to know what a/f ratio you are at, perhaps is so rich it washed a ring out. you need more info before you decide to rebuild it.

ask more questions get more info

No I agree with you.. But I dont really run my car hard anyways ya know? So for the immediate future.. atleast I know whats causing my power loss.. Now what is the exact thing causing it... that i dont know yet

[Vteckidd]

i would still get it tuned. if its a washed ring, tuning will make the cylinder come back. i dont see how you can say its "not making the power its sposed to" when you dont even know what the a/f ratio is.

what if its running 9:1 rich, or 15:1 lean?

tune it, then see what happens, if you tune it an it makes the same power, then yes you got issues.

i think everyone is jumping the gun personally. but good luck no matter what you decide

[The Ren]

Thanks Mike.. I definatly appreciate the help.. Remember Im still very new to the supra world so.. Dan told me he thinks its definatly a cause for concern but something not to loose sleep over. My car is still pulling hard and drives fine...its obviously not to the full potential it can be at but at 338hp its still got decent power..

[Vteckidd]

oh its at batlground, i didnt know that.

yeah just go with what they say, i would still get an AFC an tune it to see what power it makes just for grins.

good luck

[The Ren]

oh its at batlground, i didnt know that.

yeah just go with what they say, i would still get an AFC an tune it to see what power it makes just for grins.

good luck


I am still ganna go single and I am still ganna get my fmic... once I do that I will get my afc and then go from there..

[Dragonfly5338]

I am still ganna go single and I am still ganna get my fmic... once I do that I will get my afc and then go from there..

Why? You just said you drive with the boost controller off, so I'm assuming you're running less than 10lbs daily. That thing would be a pig with a huge single running off the wastegate.

I'm not trying to knock you, seriously, and I hope you find and fix the problem with your car... but what is the point of building a 600+whp car if you don't drive it??!! If you're not comfortable with a fast car - why are you building one?!! You're better off sticking with the stock twins and keeping it at a moderate 400whp or so, there's nothing to be ashamed about that.

Build the car for what you want, not what everyone expects. If you're building a supra with big numbers but you run with the boost controller off on the streets, it's for some other reason than you honestly want a car with high horsepower.

If you're comfortable with 400whp, then keep the car at 400whp and save a shitload of money. Plus you have a lot more drivability with the stock twins than you would with a huge single that will hardly spool if you have the b/c off.

Just my :2cents:

[CSquared]

I suppose there is always the fun of building a car... Open it up occassionally at the track and events.

If nothing was lost in translation though... i totally agree with what val said.

[Xrated O.G.]

does it burn oil? what im saying is, a COMPRESSION test will give you a number. It doesnt tell you whats wrong with it.

for instance, you could have a bent valve or a bad piston. A leakdown will tell you the amount of air getting past the particular cylinder. an tell you if its the bottom end or the top end.

i guess i have heard how so many Supra motors especailly TURBO GTEs are indestructable an good for 600whp, i find it EXTREMELY hard to beleive your bottom end went out.

You need to know what a/f ratio you are at, perhaps is so rich it washed a ring out. you need more info before you decide to rebuild it.

ask more questions get more info



Well said Mike.




I would get to the root of the problem before doing any other upgrades/modifications. The bottom ends on those cars are damn near indistructable. Doing the work on those things are SO SIMPLE.... Its really nothing to remove the head from it if it is a valve or anything else in the head. To continually drive the vehicle with ANY type of symptom or problem is only going to cause more inevitable damage to the engine. If you have some other means of transportation than I suggest you use it. Stop driving it till you know exactly what is wrong with it. It makes no sense to keep wounding the motor when you don't have too. Just my $.02 so take it how you may... Hit me up if you want or need any help. I am not too far from you in Winder....

[Vteckidd]

Well said Mike.




I would get to the root of the problem before doing any other upgrades/modifications. The bottom ends on those cars are damn near indistructable. Doing the work on those things are SO SIMPLE.... Its really nothing to remove the head from it if it is a valve or anything else in the head. To continually drive the vehicle with ANY type of symptom or problem is only going to cause more inevitable damage to the engine. If you have some other means of transportation than I suggest you use it. Stop driving it till you know exactly what is wrong with it. It makes no sense to keep wounding the motor when you don't have too. Just my $.02 so take it how you may... Hit me up if you want or need any help. I am not too far from you in Winder....


+1

My hero

[Xrated O.G.]

+1

My hero






LMAO..... I would love to take a look and see whats up with the Supra....

[SilverJester]

I am still ganna go single and I am still ganna get my fmic... once I do that I will get my afc and then go from there..
You have to go in order here....you can't just slap a big turbo on and drive the car. 1st fix your car so that it runs right as it sits now. Then once you get that taken care you'll need supporting mods for the bigger turbo. Which will include bigger injectors, but in order to run bigger injectors (correctly) you will need a way to tune the car (s-afc or any other tuning device). Btw way, I gave you my compression gauge when you bought the car....you could have tested it before buying it.
As far as the 15.1, I also think it has nothing ot do with the car but rather with your driving. You ARE making 340whp, reguarless of being tuned or untuned and reguarless of your compression. If a stock supra with less power than you runs 14's, you should be going faster because you DO HAVE more power. That's not to say that you wouldn't have more power (and therefore still faster times at the track) if you fixed your car, but as it sits you should be running faster than a 15 with 340hp.

[Vteckidd]

I also agree with Val (*GASP*) ;) If your happy with making 400whp, then why sink money into a single turbo. no need for it IMO.

I just think IMHO that you are ASSUMING alot right now based on LITTLE INFO. I would personally ditch all the electronics, use an SAFC an a boost contoller an get it tuned. See what power it makes THEN. respond back here with the a/f ratio graph.

Slapping a single turbo on an already low compression cylinder is another mistake. right now the only mistake you have is a car with upgrades an no tuning done what so ever. big no no. bite the bullet, buy an SAFC an tune it. Youll need AT LEAST an SAFC with the single turbo anyways so its not like its wasted money. If you tune it, the comp numbers stay low an you make crappy power, then look towards a rebuild.

[Xrated O.G.]

I also agree with Val (*GASP*) ;) If your happy with making 400whp, then why sink money into a single turbo. no need for it IMO.

I just think IMHO that you are ASSUMING alot right now based on LITTLE INFO. I would personally ditch all the electronics, use an SAFC an a boost contoller an get it tuned. See what power it makes THEN. respond back here with the a/f ratio graph.

Slapping a single turbo on an already low compression cylinder is another mistake. right now the only mistake you have is a car with upgrades an no tuning done what so ever. big no no. bite the bullet, buy an SAFC an tune it. Youll need AT LEAST an SAFC with the single turbo anyways so its not like its wasted money. If you tune it, the comp numbers stay low an you make crappy power, then look towards a rebuild.




You keep speaking as if you may have some sort of knowledge on the internal combustion engine. Do you work at Jiffy Lube?

[Big Baller]

Get the big single

[Dragonfly5338]

I also agree with Val (*GASP*) ;)

DAMN!!! :eek: :eek: Hahhaa!

Matt, shut up. This is about what Ren wants for her supra not what you want for it.

[PSINXS]

ren if u gonna go single do it right. a t61 is a waste of a turbo IMO> Its a small single and will make at most in 4XX range on stock fuel system. If all u want is in the 400s a strong BPU++ will get you there. IMO Get a big single, do the fuel system like you planned, TH400, and have fun.

[Vteckidd]

i would do a B16 swap, VTTTTTTTTTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

[iloveboost]

Big turbos make all problems disappear. It should also help with your low compression cylinder.

[Vteckidd]

You keep speaking as if you may have some sort of knowledge on the internal combustion engine. Do you work at Jiffy Lube?
get it right, its MEINEKE!

[The Ren]

I plan on going single in the future.. not at this point and time, I still need to get more comfortable with my car before I go single.. as I said though I still have plans to do it. Stock boost on my car is 13lbs. I havnt really decided what turbo im going with and I still have plenty of time to figure it out. For the immediate future I am keeping it where its at. Right now until I get a daily the supra is my only means of transportation since my other car is being used by my boyfriend who drives to work in buckhead everyday and my mom is still in need to use the tracker till she gets her other car. Believe me If I could keep it in the garage and not drive it I would.

[MongolPup]

Now I might be a little noobish, and I sure as hell don't have a supra, but why is such a popular mod a single turbo conversion?

If its all about more boost, it doesn't make sense why you would go to a single. More boost (as in enough you can't use the stock ones) means more spool time; isn't it better to have the sequential turbo thing going on?

Point is, couldn't you have an ever BIGGER turbo if you had a smaller (still bigger then stock) one to "pre-spool" it and give you quicker power?

Like I said earlier, maybe I'm not right or I have the wrong idea about how the twin turbo style thats in the supra works, but hey its a learning experience right?

[Vteckidd]

more power is had through a Single turbo. thse arent 4 cylinder motors, they are 6 cylinder.

You eliminate alot of issues with switching to a single turbo. with todays turbo technologies you can get a turbo that will spool an still make sick top end.

[Mike Lowrey]

Big turbos make all problems disappear. It should also help with your low compression cylinder.

WTF??? :rolleyes:

[Vteckidd]

he was kidding

[Xrated O.G.]

^^^^ Damn people cant take a joke these days.....

[Mike Lowrey]

he was kidding


^^^^ Damn people cant take a joke these days.....


I know he had to be kidding....otherwise, well nm... ;)