Military

[Hulud]

i was watching saving private ryan the other day. you knwo barry pepper (the sniper) right before he shoots the germans in the last scene he would say something to god. and before he shoots the sniper that shot vin deisel he says something like god give me strength.

anyways my point is what do you all (everyone not just christians) feel about this? like asking god for help to kill people

[babowc]

maybe hes asking forgiveness for what hes about to do?
LIRL.
anyways.. killing someone in any situation is unjustifiable imo.

[Hulud]

maybe hes asking forgiveness for what hes about to do?
LIRL.
anyways.. killing someone in any situation is unjustifiable imo.
i can understand the forgiveness thing, but then that means he knows hes committing a sin.....

but what i dont understand is the people in the military shooting others and claiming they are religious

[aaronfelipe]

i was watching saving private ryan the other day. you knwo barry pepper (the sniper) right before he shoots the germans in the last scene he would say something to god. and before he shoots the sniper that shot vin deisel he says something like god give me strength.

anyways my point is what do you all (everyone not just christians) feel about this? like asking god for help to kill people

I can see why he says it, he is fighting for a cause that he thinks is right and finds himself in trouble. I can also see what you mean about how it may be a little wrong because he is commiting a mortal sin. I think that it is okay because if it was real life, maybe he did not chose to be there.
-Aaron-

[Hulud]

I can see why he says it, he is fighting for a cause that he thinks is right and finds himself in trouble. I can also see what you mean about how it may be a little wrong because he is commiting a mortal sin. I think that it is okay because if it was real life, maybe he did not chose to be there.
-Aaron-
he may not have chosen to be there but he did choose to pull the trigger, he could have been a chaplin, im just saying

[aaronfelipe]

he may not have chosen to be there but he did choose to pull the trigger, he could have been a chaplin, im just saying
If he didn't, he would have been dead.

[Hulud]

If he didn't, he would have been dead.
turn the other cheek?

[aaronfelipe]

turn the other cheek?
what do you mean?

[Hulud]

what do you mean?
if your harmed arent you supposed to turn the other cheek?
i.e. instead of shooting, dont

[aaronfelipe]

if your harmed arent you supposed to turn the other cheek?
i.e. instead of shooting, dont
I see where ou are coming from. Well, when some people commit themslves to something, like a country, they have to put their lives in the live to survive. Maybe they think, it's better the other people than them.
What do you think?

[Hulud]

I see where ou are coming from. Well, when some people commit themslves to something, like a country, they have to put their lives in the live to survive. Maybe they think, it's better the other people than them.
What do you think?
i agree with that, fuck if i was sent to war i would shoot anyone trying to take my life.

but then again im not religious so its not contrary to my beliefs.

thats why i made this thread to see how everyone felt about this

[aaronfelipe]

Gotcha. Well although I'm not a strong catholic, I turn to ask god for help when I find myself in trouble or pain, which is what I was taught to do. Like, "...he is sick...we will pray to god for him..." People turn to god when they need help for anything and in this case, it is his life. Capiche?

[Hulud]

Gotcha. Well although I'm not a strong catholic, I turn to ask god for help when I find myself in trouble or pain, which is what I was taught to do. Like, "...he is sick...we will pray to god for him..." People turn to god when they need help for anything and in this case, it is his life. Capiche?
i understand what your saying, but why would god help him live by killing gods people? food for thought

[tony]

I dont think he is necessarily asking god for the strength to kill specifically.. but the ability to do what needs to be done although it may not be morally right.

Say for instance, someone that robs to feed their child may do the same.. its not a matter of right or wrong, it is just that for that moment that person feels like they have something to accomplish one way or another and need to know that god is with them and will be with them regardless.

I'm not deeply religious by any means, this is just my interpretation.

[metalman]

i can understand the forgiveness thing, but then that means he knows hes committing a sin.....

but what i dont understand is the people in the military shooting others and claiming they are religious

Thats why there are concientious objectors. ;)

Some justify the killing in their mind...and those moral choices are theirs to make, right or wrong, not unlike abortion and similar other moral questions.

[ISAtlanta300]

Very interesting topic, Hulud. Very Deep.

For those wondering about what the sniper was saying, it was along the lines of "O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me"

"Be not that far from me, for trouble is near; haste Thee to help me. "

"Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight. "

"My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. "

[Hulud]

Very interesting topic, Hulud. Very Deep.

For those wondering about what the sniper was saying, it was along the lines of "O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me"

"Be not that far from me, for trouble is near; haste Thee to help me. "

"Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight. "

"My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. "
thanks i didnt knwo what he said

[babowc]

If this were a real circumstance, with you being that sniper, who wouldnt shoot?
I am 99% sure I'd pull that trigger for fear of my own life.
Hard to admit, but its true.

[Cato]

I Being a soldier AND a christian, I find it perfectly fine to ask God for power to commit a sin. Just think for a moment, If God didn't want me to do this He would stop me. Whether from death or my weapon jamming. I believe what I'm doing is justifible and if it isn't I'm ready to go Hell, as long as my wife is safe. I protect lives by ending lives, And when your at war you really don't think about religion, except praying.


- Private 1st Class Cato, 517th Infantry Division

[4dmin]

^ ummm, sorry but i don't think GOD allows you to commit a sin and justifiable... well i guess everything is open to interpetation as far as the bible goes but i dont' think that is anywhere in there.

either way, its a sin.

[Hulud]

I Being a soldier AND a christian, I find it perfectly fine to ask God for power to commit a sin. :lmfao:

Just think for a moment, If God didn't want me to do this He would stop me.
since you dont have free will and all :rolleyes:

Whether from death or my weapon jamming. I believe what I'm doing is justifible and if it isn't I'm ready to go Hell, as long as my wife is safe. I protect lives by ending lives, And when your at war you really don't think about religion, except praying.

maybe you should think about what you are preaching.

practice what you preach :goodjob:

[Cato]

I get home and this is what I see. Let me shed some more light on the conversation.
*These are my thoughts and can be wrong.*

:lmfao:

since you dont have free will and all :rolleyes:

So your saying that God has no power over me? That I'm just this simple man that can over come God? You can live your life without help from God but at any moment God can change what you do if you let Him.



maybe you should think about what you are preaching.

practice what you preach :goodjob:

Its not about preaching, That was just my IDEA on the situation. I could be very wrong or I could be right. Religion is at many differnet levels. How you think and how I think are very different. I live my life every day asking God for advice or help and never once has He steered me wrong.


sorry but i don't think GOD allows you to commit a sin and justifiable
Peolpe sin every day and go to confession to repent. If you can be truly forgiven in the eyes of God for the sin, wouldn't that be justifing it?

[metalman]

I Being a soldier AND a christian, I find it perfectly fine to ask God for power to commit a sin. Just think for a moment, If God didn't want me to do this He would stop me. Whether from death or my weapon jamming. I believe what I'm doing is justifible and if it isn't I'm ready to go Hell, as long as my wife is safe. I protect lives by ending lives, And when your at war you really don't think about religion, except praying.


- Private 1st Class Cato, 517th Infantry Division

First, thank you for serving our country. You have my respect for that.

Second, its not for me to judge you, so I won't. You should follow your own concience.

That being said, I dont think there is such a thing as a "justifiable sin" in terms of the Bible or the doctrine of Christ. Fact is, you can serve your country without killing anyone. Granted, its not easy but others have done it.
One even won the Congressional Medal of Honor without so much as ever firing a shot. Regardless, I hope God will guide you in your descisions and keep you safe.

[metalman]

Peolpe sin every day and go to confession to repent. If you can be truly forgiven in the eyes of God for the sin, wouldn't that be justifing it?

Two problems there...

First, catholic confession is not Biblical. One need not ever confess to a sinful human priest to be forgiven of sin. In fact blabbing all ones sins to other humans who have nothing to do with what you may have done wrong should probably be avoided.

Secondly, to knowingly sin with the intent of asking forgivness is something you would have to be judged for by God, so I wont go there.
Only thing I will say is what the Bible says.."thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God... "

[MitsuEvo6]

When I deploy in a few months I will pull the trigger so yall have the right to have this conversation. I see no problem lettin that round go downrange to keep myself, or my battles alive.

[Hulud]

So your saying that God has no power over me? That I'm just this simple man that can over come God? You can live your life without help from God but at any moment God can change what you do if you let Him.
no you just think that (if there is a god) if you do something bad god will stop you. from what ive learned about christianity god will not stop you.




Its not about preaching, That was just my IDEA on the situation. I could be very wrong or I could be right. Religion is at many differnet levels. How you think and how I think are very different. I live my life every day asking God for advice or help and never once has He steered me wrong.
never steered you wrong, yet you are murdering? :confused:


Peolpe sin every day and go to confession to repent. If you can be truly forgiven in the eyes of God for the sin, wouldn't that be justifing it?
confession cleanses YOUR concious, not the soul





but anyways i would like to thank you for protecting and serving our country though, thank you

[metalman]

When I deploy in a few months I will pull the trigger so yall have the right to have this conversation. I see no problem lettin that round go downrange to keep myself, or my battles alive.

Thank you for serving our country.
As I have stated several times, let each follow his own concience.
Stay safe!

[Hulud]

When I deploy in a few months I will pull the trigger so yall have the right to have this conversation. I see no problem lettin that round go downrange to keep myself, or my battles alive.
i agree with you, but i dont follow the bible

[Cato]

Metalman, I do not tempt our Lord, but simply ask if what I am doing is right.

1 john 1:9 - "If we confess our sins, He [God] is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all iniquity." St. John is very plain. He says it flat out.

I hope that covers it and if not I'll awnser more tommorow. And if it helps you I'm not in Iraq anymore, I've been re-stationed in GA. I'm now with the 29th Infantry Regement.

[metalman]

Metalman, I do not tempt our Lord, but simply ask if what I am doing is right.

1 john 1:9 - "If we confess our sins, He [God] is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all iniquity." St. John is very plain. He says it flat out.

I hope that covers it and if not I'll awnser more tommorow. And if it helps you I'm not in Iraq anymore, I've been re-stationed in GA. I'm now with the 29th Infantry Regement.

I wasnt judging you or saying you were..I cannot discern the heart, only God can. I was just mentioning a Bible principle.

1 John 1:9 is certainly true. :) Just goes to show one doesnt need a human priest to be forgiven.

[babowc]

If this were a real circumstance, with you being that sniper, who wouldnt shoot?
I am 99% sure I'd pull that trigger for fear of my own life.
Hard to admit, but its true.

you guys arguing how he's wrong and all.
i am definitely sure any of us would do the same thing if it were threatening our very lives.
i'm a christian and all, but i'd still pull that trigger for fear of my own life.

of course, I wouldnt do anything to be in that circumstance in the first place.. but if it came down to it, ^that'd happen. Most likely.

[Hulud]

you guys arguing how he's wrong and all.
i am definitely sure any of us would do the same thing if it were threatening our very lives.
i'm a christian and all, but i'd still pull that trigger for fear of my own life.

of course, I wouldnt do anything to be in that circumstance in the first place.. but if it came down to it, ^that'd happen. Most likely.
as i said i would do it too but i dont believe in the bible so im not being hypocritical

[JASONBALL]

I'm not religous and don't really know much about the bible. but once in awhile I speak to God. But my feeling on this situation is that if you have to shoot some that is trying to harm people then you are taking only 1 life to save many. I belive that is the right thing to do if you are permitted to do so. and it will not be looked down upon. but will be passed by.

[babowc]

http://forums.importatlanta.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
I guess that makes me a hypocrit :eye:
but I'd be hardpressed to find anyone who wouldn't do the same.. of course, that doesn't make it justifiable.

It's how humans are. No way around it :o

[Hulud]

I'm not religous and don't really know much about the bible. but once in awhile I speak to God. But my feeling on this situation is that if you have to shoot some that is trying to harm people then you are taking only 1 life to save many. I belive that is the right thing to do if you are permitted to do so. and it will not be looked down upon. but will be passed by.
but how do you know they are gonna harm others? they are just doing the same as you (you meaning the person in the military)

[babowc]

Of course, in the "terrorist's" point of view, we're the "terrorists".
so.. i dont know how that concludes.

they're doing the same thing in their minds as we are, if we were to go to war with some group of people, that is.

[Hulud]

Of course, in the "terrorist's" point of view, we're the "terrorists".
so.. i dont know how that concludes.

they're doing the same thing in their minds as we are, if we were to go to war with some group of people, that is.
but im referring to the other wars like ww2 the german soldiers were just defending their country

[Scgrandprix]

Its as old as war...still happens today, happened in ancient egypt

[babowc]

but im referring to the other wars like ww2 the german soldiers were just defending their country

yes, i meant the same thing.
in any situation.
not just the current.. iraq vs us situation.

anyhow.. killing is never justifiable by any means. (note: my post before. meaning what i'd do isnt justifiable also.)

[Scgrandprix]

This is why i hate organized religion

[babygurl]

i was watching saving private ryan the other day. you knwo barry pepper (the sniper) right before he shoots the germans in the last scene he would say something to god. and before he shoots the sniper that shot vin deisel he says something like god give me strength.

anyways my point is what do you all (everyone not just christians) feel about this? like asking god for help to kill people



In my Opinon...its wrong...in a way its testing god...Its almost as stupid as saying "God, If I go slam my car into a wall at 100mph protect me, let me come out if it in one piece" IF you test someone they usually back off....I say God would do the same....

Also its kinda like in that movie Titanic...Where I think the designer of the ship said " God himself couldnt sink it himself" Gee what happened then...it sank !

Ok maybe someone else has a better response then me!

[ShooterMcGavin]

^ ummm, sorry but i don't think GOD allows you to commit a sin and justifiable... well i guess everything is open to interpetation as far as the bible goes but i dont' think that is anywhere in there.

either way, its a sin.

god does allow u to commit a sin as he has given you free will. and in his eyes, a sin is a sin, doesn't matter if u killed someone or stole a $0.05 piece of candy.

but on the other hand, god is obviously "ok" with ppl sinning, i mean who out there has not sinned in the eyes of god? it's why jesus died on the christ so all can be forgiven for their sins right?

so to sum it up, if u are protecting ur country and defending urself and kill someone while doin it, u have sinned, but god will grant u forgiveness if u ask it of him.

[4dmin]

god does allow u to commit a sin as he has given you free will. and in his eyes, a sin is a sin, doesn't matter if u killed someone or stole a $0.05 piece of candy.

but on the other hand, god is obviously "ok" with ppl sinning, i mean who out there has not sinned in the eyes of god? it's why jesus died on the christ so all can be forgiven for their sins right?

so to sum it up, if u are protecting ur country and defending urself and kill someone while doin it, u have sinned, but god will grant u forgiveness if u ask it of him.

god did give you free will, but i said "allow and justifiable"... god does not justify your sinning... its not like god took the day off and said its ok, or a cliff note in the bible killing is a sin *except in war* :jerkit:

the problem i see here is the lack of true forgiveness... i don't think military men are truely sorry for what they have done, i highly doubt bush prays ever night the deaths that have been tolled on his orders.

i'm not christian so it doesn't matter to me either way, me personally EYE FOR EYE and KILL OR BE KILLED... but i do think if your going to christian you should try to make an example of yourself and not put yourself in the position to sin. to me going in the military to go to war is no worse then going to a whore house, its ok if i sin after i fuck the prostitute b/c god gave me free will. i call that trying to beat the system at its own game. i'm sorry but even god can see the flaws in this.

[{X}Echo419]

I Being a soldier AND a christian, I find it perfectly fine to ask God for power to commit a sin. Just think for a moment, If God didn't want me to do this He would stop me. Whether from death or my weapon jamming. I believe what I'm doing is justifible and if it isn't I'm ready to go Hell, as long as my wife is safe. I protect lives by ending lives, And when your at war you really don't think about religion, except praying.


- Private 1st Class Cato, 517th Infantry Division

don't worry about what you're doing. just keep you and your brothers over there safe.

[ShooterMcGavin]

god did give you free will, but i said "allow and justifiable"... god does not justify your sinning... its not like god took the day off and said its ok, or a cliff note in the bible killing is a sin *except in war* :jerkit:

the problem i see here is the lack of true forgiveness... i don't think military men are truely sorry for what they have done, i highly doubt bush prays ever night the deaths that have been tolled on his orders.

i'm not christian so it doesn't matter to me either way, me personally EYE FOR EYE and KILL OR BE KILLED... but i do think if your going to christian you should try to make an example of yourself and not put yourself in the position to sin. to me going in the military to go to war is no worse then going to a whore house, its ok if i sin after i fuck the prostitute b/c god gave me free will. i call that trying to beat the system at its own game. i'm sorry but even god can see the flaws in this.

i wasn't arguing that it was justified, just saying everyone is given a choice by god.

and as far as the part about beating the system at its own game, i couldn't agree more. however, true christians are supposed to know better than that.

in my personal opinion i think religion as a whole can get pretty fucked up, i mean just look at the crusades and how many were killed in the name of christianity.