Gospel of Judas

[Hulud]

here (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/07/science/07jtext.html?ex=1144814400&en=e0aa0dc94b838afc&ei=5087) is some on it

here (http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/11/opinion/edmartin.php) is some more on it


what are your thoughts

[Romeyo07]

read up on this...found it interesting. The main thing emphasised was that Judas claims Jesus asked him to turn him into the authorities. This, of course, sparks a million different tangents. Though it doesn't disprove anything in the current bible, it adds a twist to what Christians are taught.

[Hulud]

read up on this...found it interesting. The main thing emphasised was that Judas claims Jesus asked him to turn him into the authorities. This, of course, sparks a million different tangents. Though it doesn't disprove anything in the current bible, it adds a twist to what Christians are taught.
yea i saw that and was like wow
but ya never know whats true

[Romeyo07]

I like the second links explaination of it and how it ties it to his death....make sense. Does it change anything, no. I'd like to catch what the national geographic channel had on this.

[blacknightteg]

although this does bring up some interesting points and stories and what have you. keep in mind its clamed as a Gnostic gospel, meaning its not one of the gospels that the church associates with. the copy that was found apparently wasnt even the "orginial" doctorine that was written, apparently like most of the gospels, especially the gnostic ones, they were all written a good sum of years after the death of jesus. this gospel that was found is no differnet.

[Hulud]

although this does bring up some interesting points and stories and what have you. keep in mind its clamed as a Gnostic gospel, meaning its not one of the gospels that the church associates with. the copy that was found apparently wasnt even the "orginial" doctorine that was written, apparently like most of the gospels, especially the gnostic ones, they were all written a good sum of years after the death of jesus. this gospel that was found is no differnet.
so what your saying is that because the church doesnt associate with it, its wrong?

maybe the church doesnt associate with it because it doesnt fit this nice little story they preach? food for thought

[blacknightteg]

no, im not saying that it is wrong to belive that gospel, im just saying that, that at the time of the the disciples and the concils that made up the books of the new testament. these Gospels, the Gnostic gospels, because of the way that they were written at that time were considered heresy. they could be true, they could not be true. who know's toe be honest they could have just left out that gospel from the new testament beecause it being judas. who know's

[Romeyo07]

"Scholars say that they have long been on the lookout for the Gospel of Judas because of a reference to what was probably an early version of it in a text called Against Heresies, written by Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons, about the year 180.

Irenaeus was a hunter of heretics, and no friend of the Gnostics. He wrote, "They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas.""

Hulud - the story doesn't change. Jesus still dies on the Cross.

[Hulud]

"Scholars say that they have long been on the lookout for the Gospel of Judas because of a reference to what was probably an early version of it in a text called Against Heresies, written by Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons, about the year 180.

Irenaeus was a hunter of heretics, and no friend of the Gnostics. He wrote, "They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas.""

Hulud - the story doesn't change. Jesus still dies on the Cross.
i know the story doesnt change, but it changes things in the story

[ShooterMcGavin]

another thing i noticed from reading the 2nd link is, the gnostics are a sect of christians who believe the whole "secrets" thing right? and by having jesus confide in judas the "secret" of having him betray jesus, it kinda fits in with their (being the gnostics) belief?

[blacknightteg]

the gnostics are an interesting bunch of people. they believe that although jesus was a person he actually was not, they believe that in order for jesus to be truely the son of god, or god him self. his actual human form is not realy, but soemthing that embodies the holy spirit.

i hope that made sense, im trying to remember all this off the top of my head cuz thats what were studying in my religion class at school

[metalman]

The apostle John made reference to the spirit if antichrist which he said was ALREADY in the world at the time of his writing. That antichrist or false christ "in place of Christ" was at that time primarily Gnostics who made up their own version of Christ, one that suited them better the the REAL One. On a side note, this is much along the same line as what Mr Tabor is doing with his work, trying to make Jesus fit what is wanted rather then accepting what He is.

The "gospel" of Judas is part of this anti christ movement. The spirit of antichrist has continued throughout history to this very day. Along the same vein, Judas betrayed Jesus because of his desire to make Christ into something he wanted. Instead Christ delivered everyone that will accept His gift from sin and its consequenses.

[fight club]

the gnostic gospels were around BEFORE the gnostic people, and contain such gospels as the gospel of st. thomas, the supposed spoken words of jesus directly to doubting thomas. the gnostic people are no different than catholics etc who have taken ALL OF THE GOSPELS and chosen the select few that fit their beliefs. of course if u abide by the catholic or king james bibles then the gnostic gospels would seem heritic to you as is vise versa. however, when viewing them ALL the picture is much clearer. anyone interested in religion and such, i would truely reccommend studying both, and seeing how the picture doesnt neccesary contridict each other, but coinsides to the point that one believing one to be false doctrine seems unintellegent. while there are descrepenses gospel to gospel, one must remember that each gospel is one persons account of events told or viewed, and as many cases, no one person has the full view. the main reason the catholic church denies the gnostic gospels is found in the gospel of st. thomas, as it states " the kingdom of god is not held within buildings of wood and stone"" it is in side you and all around you... split a piece of wood, and i am there, lift up a stone and you will find me" . obviously, this paints quite a different picture than the catholic belief that the church is your one way to communicate with the Almighty. thus, their exclusion from the bible. i agian recommend any true christian, to read the gnostic gospels and make their own decision.

[metalman]

A couple of Scriptures on the subjects that pertain to this debate....

Gal 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2 Cor 11:3,4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Acts 20:26-31 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 22:18-20 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

[blacknightteg]

metalman, you seriously are the bomb when it comes to religious history and what not. +1 for you man. im in the process of learning and what have you. being in my religion class and all.

[fight club]

just to continue an interesting discussion:

the bible did not arrive by fax from heaven, and Jesus' second coming not withstanding, there is no true way to know what gospels God wanted in the bible, as it was made and REVISED by man. so with that known, and proven throughout history, using the bible to validate itself is an effort of futility because the bible, in essence, is propaganda of the RCC. treating it as such, one cannot use the propaganda of a power to justify its cause. For example, andthis IS AN EXAMPLE AND NO WAY A RELATIVE COMPARISION, a nazi cannot use nazi party propaganda as justification of why jews would be deemed below them. a kkk member cannot use their propaganda as justificition as why the white race is superior, etc etc.

[blacknightteg]

the gnostic gospels were around BEFORE the gnostic people, and contain such gospels as the gospel of st. thomas, the supposed spoken words of jesus directly to doubting thomas. the gnostic people are no different than catholics etc who have taken ALL OF THE GOSPELS and chosen the select few that fit their beliefs. of course if u abide by the catholic or king james bibles then the gnostic gospels would seem heritic to you as is vise versa. however, when viewing them ALL the picture is much clearer. anyone interested in religion and such, i would truely reccommend studying both, and seeing how the picture doesnt neccesary contridict each other, but coinsides to the point that one believing one to be false doctrine seems unintellegent. while there are descrepenses gospel to gospel, one must remember that each gospel is one persons account of events told or viewed, and as many cases, no one person has the full view. the main reason the catholic church denies the gnostic gospels is found in the gospel of st. thomas, as it states " the kingdom of god is not held within buildings of wood and stone"" it is in side you and all around you... split a piece of wood, and i am there, lift up a stone and you will find me" . obviously, this paints quite a different picture than the catholic belief that the church is your one way to communicate with the Almighty. thus, their exclusion from the bible. i agian recommend any true christian, to read the gnostic gospels and make their own decision.

you have to understand that at that time, there was no division in churches. the term catholic means "universal" it was only called the catholic church when the romans adopted it into their prime religion and the church split leaving the Roman catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox, which orthodox means "true teachings". the Gnostics believed that god was not able to be contained in material things that he was greater then that and that the human called jesus could not embody god because he was to great. they believe that if in fact the messiah, he was but an embodiment of the spirit of god and not a true human being. the Gnostic gospels have alwasy been around seeing as how "gospel" means good news. Many gospels existed. these gospels that the councils and compiled together were gospels of close people to jesus. these stories that the diciples spoke were their views on the teachings of god or jesus. the Gnostic gospels were in fact readings that the catholic church, not the one you think of today, thought didnt didnt agree with the "ideas" and or teachings that jesus had brought to the people

[fight club]

when i speak of the catholic church, i am referring to the entity that formed and founded modern day christianity. the same church that pick and chose through all the different accounts, or gospels, refering to jesus and the following events, and compiled them into the book we know as the bible.

[metalman]

, there is no true way to know what gospels God wanted in the bible, .

On the contrary...ANY so called 'gospel' that changes, adds to, subtracts from, or in any way contradicts the entire sum of Scripture up to that point or contradicts the law of God IS NOT OF GOD. That Scriptural principle is quite clear throughout the entire Bible.

The Scriptures already existed at the time of Christ...in part. His words/teachings and even LIFE were in COMPLETE harmony with the Scriptures already written. His promise IS that His Word is eternal and sure. You/we either believe that or not. I do.
The Scripture from Gen to Rev give essentially the same 'test' to ANY book that comes along. Also, even logic would tell you that a God who can Create life can protect His own Word and see to it which is to be included. I know this, whenever I test any doctrine or teaching by the entire Bible and law of God it either floats or sinks...just like that Book teaches and says. The proof is in the pudding. ;)

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Is. 8:20

[trini_gsr]

just to continue an interesting discussion:

the bible did not arrive by fax from heaven, and Jesus' second coming not withstanding, there is no true way to know what gospels God wanted in the bible, as it was made and REVISED by man. so with that known, and proven throughout history, using the bible to validate itself is an effort of futility because the bible, in essence, is propaganda of the RCC. treating it as such, one cannot use the propaganda of a power to justify its cause. For example, andthis IS AN EXAMPLE AND NO WAY A RELATIVE COMPARISION, a nazi cannot use nazi party propaganda as justification of why jews would be deemed below them. a kkk member cannot use their propaganda as justificition as why the white race is superior, etc etc.

this is a very good point. validation has to come from an EXTERNAL source. this is one of the reasons why, although i think the Bible is a great book and spiritual guide, it can't be objectively accepted at face value as a 100% factual document. WAAAAAYYY too many hands have been in that pot.

There's a book out there called the Lost Books of the Bible that compiles a lot of the gospels and other books that were left out of the Bible by the various RCC councils (for numerous reasons, most of them not with the noblest intentions and self-serving). I'm pretty sure the Gospel of Judas and Thomas, as well as the Book of Adam and Eve and Enoch, are included. Any serious student of Christianity should try to get their hands on it...

[fight club]

That Scriptural principle is quite clear throughout the entire Bible.
agian, man has compiled the bible so it could be argued that that principle is the set belief of the compilors


To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Is. 8:20

the gospel of st. thomas is to be believed by many scholors to be the closest written document to the spoken word of Jesus Christ. but how are we to decide what speaks agians that word, should one verse that provides a different approach deem an entire gospel herecy, regardless of if the message of that gospel coinsides with the bible?

on another note, +1 for you sir for knowing your religion, being educated, and providing me with an enthralling debate! :goodjob:

[fight club]

There's a book out there called the Lost Books of the Bible that compiles a lot of the gospels and other books that were left out of the Bible by the various RCC councils (for numerous reasons, most of them not with the noblest intentions and self-serving). I'm pretty sure the Gospel of Judas and Thomas, as well as the Book of Adam and Eve and Enoch, are included. Any serious student of Christianity should try to get their hands on it...


that book, along with others, available at many book stores, is usually named the gnostic gospels or the Coptic Scrolls, i believe, which is the name given because of the location found? i might possibly be wrong on that.lo. however, i did see one book that contained every gospel released and had them placed in chronological order and provided an amazing read and surprisingly did not contain too many contriditions. if i see it agian, i will post a thread of the title and location it can be purchased so all might share it. +1 for the back up. :)

[metalman]

this is a very good point. validation has to come from an EXTERNAL source. this is one of the reasons why, although i think the Bible is a great book and spiritual guide, it can't be objectively accepted at face value as a 100% factual document. ...

This is where personal experience and 'testing' of THAT Book come in....which is what that Book teaches to begin with.
Only those that have LIVED and EXPERIENCED the truths and promises of the Bible can really fully accept it. Thats why Jesus made the, "unless you eat my body...." statement. You must partake to have understanding.

[fight club]

This is where personal experience and 'testing' of THAT Book come in....which is what that Book teaches to begin with.
Only those that have LIVED and EXPERIENCED the truths and promises of the Bible can really fully accept it. Thats why Jesus made the, "unless you eat my body...." statement. You must partake to have understanding.


and what of those people, who feel that they have tested the book agian and agian and have not seen the truths and had those promises broken?

agian, just having a civilized convo, dont want any crazy christians killin me :o

[metalman]

and what of those people, who feel that they have tested the book agian and agian and have not seen the truths and had those promises broken?

agian, just having a civilized convo, dont want any crazy christians killin me :o

I would say those people haven't truly tested the Word, theyre making excuses. Too many want to go with their 'feelings' rather then a plain thus sayeth the Lord. Also many people want their OWN will and not the will of the Father.
To claim a Biblical promise one must meet the criteria for that promise.
Its either true or its all a lie. I can tell you from personal experience its NOT a lie. ;)

I have also seen IT to be true firsthand in the lives of others.
But as the Bible says, let each be convinced in their own mind, by their own TRUTHFUL, HONEST experience.

[fight club]

and i could argue that those who could testify on the validity of the word and seen it firsthand are simply choosing to see it, selectively viewing the world as it were, and using their filtered reality to justify the words the want to be true, and denying that which contridicts the very core of their beliefs.

[blacknightteg]

metalman, i admire your knowledge on these subjects that come up, i again would rep you but i have to spread more reputation. you seem somewhat of a nuetral figure in these debates but with factual information. are you a minister or something ? you knowledge just seems so broad

[metalman]

and i could argue that those who could testify on the validity of the word and seen it firsthand are simply choosing to see it, selectively viewing the world as it were, and using their filtered reality to justify the words the want to be true, and denying that which contridicts the very core of their beliefs.

First, you can argue whatever you wish. So can I. So can someone else.
All those arguments combined do NOT change the truth from being exactly what it is. It stands without our help or arguments.

Second, your arguments up to this point were more convincing...this one is kinda weak. ;) Anyone can excuse anything someone else has ACTUALY experienced as a figment of their imagination or chalk it up to the person choosing to see it. Nonetheless, you still have the TESTIMONY of the person who ACTUALY experienced it. Also, in the case of Chrsitianity and Biblical principles there are MANY changed lives with witness's of that change. :)

[fight club]

haha yea i know that one was weak. i believe we are at a stalemate so i through that out there LOL

[metalman]

metalman, i admire your knowledge on these subjects that come up, i again would rep you but i have to spread more reputation. you seem somewhat of a nuetral figure in these debates but with factual information. are you a minister or something ? you knowledge just seems so broad

No I am no minister. Far from it. Just a regular guy like the rest of you brought here by my interest in things automotive.
I have had perhaps the benefit of additional time and experience compared to some here to study and learn. Also, I take interest in some studies that most humans probably find boring such as Biblical studies, various theology, history and others.

But most of all I believe from my core that every person should study and be able to give simple reasoning and explanation of what they believe concerning religion. This is especially true concerning Biblical issues. There is plenty enough confusion on that topic already in the world. Too many people believe things that they have no real idea why.
I also think its every person's duty to seek truth with an open mind. And I believe all should study and think for themselves.

For more on this same question review an earlier thread entitled Metalman further down.

[trini_gsr]

I would say those people haven't truly tested the Word, theyre making excuses. Too many want to go with their 'feelings' rather then a plain thus sayeth the Lord. Also many people want their OWN will and not the will of the Father.
To claim a Biblical promise one must meet the criteria for that promise.
Its either true or its all a lie. I can tell you from personal experience its NOT a lie. ;)

this is where your value judgement just came in :D. and ultimately where you and i disagree, i think...

what you have to realise is that spirituality means different things to different people. in my experiences i have found that it is very subjective and has a cultural component...and that makes it VERY HARD to be totally objective when trying to evaluate different belief systems.

just like i can't discount your personal experience when it comes to the Word of God...likewise, it's honestly pretty arrogant to discount someone else's personal experience when it comes to their spirituality...

[metalman]

what you have to realise is that spirituality means different things to different people. in my experiences i have found that it is very subjective and has a cultural component...and that makes it VERY HARD to be totally objective when trying to evaluate different belief systems.

just like i can't discount your personal experience when it comes to the Word of God...likewise, it's honestly pretty arrogant to discount someone else's personal experience when it comes to their spirituality...


The last part is true.
Spirituality means different things to differnt people....hmmmm....
then the question for you is do all roads/religions lead to heaven? Is there but One Creator God? Are there many?? Are we all unaccountable to any one authority outside of ourselves? Or does nationality/race/ethnicity/culture take precedance? Does the gospel have cultural bounds??

[trini_gsr]

The last part is true.
Spirituality means different things to differnt people....hmmmm....
then the question for you is do all roads/religions lead to heaven? Is there but One Creator God? Are there many?? Are we all unaccountable to any one authority outside of ourselves? Or does nationality/race/ethnicity/culture take precedance? Does the gospel have cultural bounds??

i see where you're going with your line of questioning ;). i'll answer them one at a time:

do all roads/religions lead to heaven? - the idea of "heaven" in the christian sense doesn't even translate over to all roads/religions. the afterlife has different meanings to different religions/cultures. look at how diverse life and the human experience is RIGHT NOW...what makes you think that whatever happens after death is going to be experienced in the same uniform fashion across all cultures?

Is there but One Creator God? - Yes. although his forms of expression may vary significantly. just doesn't seem wise to assume you can put just one label on something as Infinite and Powerful as God is supposed to be...or stick Him/Her/It in a box.

Are we all unaccountable to any one authority outside of ourselves? - Yes. there's a universal law of cause and effect that affects everything in nature. So yes we are definitely accountable for our actions - as the bible says, you reap what you sow. Some call it karma. Does that necessarily translate into a christian heaven/hell situation for everyone? Personally I don't think so...

Or does nationality/race/ethnicity/culture take precedance? Does the gospel have cultural bounds?? - to say those things take precedence is probably not the best wording...

the thing about any religion system is that it is written with a cultural component. for example, if you speak with an african shaman you'll find that his idea of spirituality is a lot more vast and comprehensive than what ours is in the west. some of the ideas and concepts they teach to kids have no correlation whatsoever in our society today. and vice versa. so their beliefs/writings are going to reflect that...

still...i think the basic message of love for God and love for your fellow man taught in the gospel is universal, and anyone can relate to it. But similar messages can be found in other religions too, like Islam for example.

It boils down to personal experience in the end...and i for one just can't objectively discount someone's experience on how praying to Allah works for them, or how positive thinking works for them, to promote my own about how praying to Jesus works for me. when the logical thing to conclude seems to be that PRAYER WORKS FOR EVERYBODY.

there's an undercurrent to all of these belief systems...so while i use the bible as my moral guide because that's the easiest for me to relate to...i recognize and try to identify that undercurrent when/where i can...

[fight club]

+1 as soon as i can.

[Romeyo07]

totally off topic, but trini_gsr I saw your name and I'm wanting some roti and doubles now...

back on topic, I do know there's but one God, but I'm a little lost on your answer as to if there are multiple "view" of God (i.e. God, Allah, etc.) Are you saying that (my) God has placed different "views" of himself in different cultures, where in the end it all leads back to him?

If so, I don't agree. To purposely have multiple views of God is not in His nature. I wont go on since I don't know your answer.

[metalman]

i see where you're going with your line of questioning ;). i'll answer them one at a time:

etc etc etc...

Whenever I reason through matters of a spiritual nature I refer to Christ for my answer. First in His example which is the perfect example for ALL and second in His Word which is perfect in wisdom.
His example always encompassed BOTH of these priciples. He always answered with an IT IS WRITTEN, or THUS SAYETH THE LORD. He always used the Scripture for His answer.
Christ IS the Word. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Your answers to my questions utilize NEITHER of those principles but rely instead on human reasoning. I am deeply troubled by that fact. I am also troubled by the fact that your reasoning in some case contradicts the plain Word of Scripture sharply. Keep in mind I heartily endorse our God given freedom of concience and you are free to choose whatever ‘belief system’ that you wish and the subsequent outcome of that system…BUT…what does the Bible/Christ our example say with regard to the questions asked?

do all roads/religions lead to heaven? –

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Prov 14:12

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matt 7:13,14

Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore. Ps 16:11

Concerning the works of men, by the word of thy lips I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer. Ps 17:4

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2 thess 1:7-9


Answer – NO You either know God or you don’t. EVERYONE is one one of TWO paths, one leads to death and destruction, the other to eternal life. ONLY the few find the narrow way that leads to eternal life.




Is there but One Creator God? -

For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. Isa. 45:18

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein…Rev 10:6

For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Ex. 34:14

If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good. Josh 24:20

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:23,24



Answer – YES. He identifies Himself. He desires our love, respect & worship. He deserves ALL of that as our Creator. The “forms of expression” you refer to often involve OTHER GODS. This is NOT acceptable according to Scripture. It is true that different people have a different level of understanding according to the light/knowledge they have but rest assured God knows who worships Him in SPIRIT and TRUTH.



Are we all unaccountable to any one authority outside of ourselves? -

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Matt 12 30-32

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Matt 12:36-37

ANSWER – Yes. We are ALL accountable to the God and His Holy Spirit. We ALL will be judged and must give account of our deeds. Those who reject the prompting of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven and shall not have eternal life. We are all either WITH God on the narrow way OR against God following our own wisdom.



Or does nationality/race/ethnicity/culture take precedance?
Does the gospel have cultural bounds??

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:34-5

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people Rev 14:6

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt 24:14

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; Col 1:23

But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
1 peter 1:25

ANSWER – The gospel/truth has NO cultural bounds. The SAME eternal enduring gospel if for ALL NATIONS, and ALL people. It is for EVERY creature. No matter whether they live in a grass hut in Africa or a mansion in Hollywood, ALL are accountable to that same gospel truth and are saved by that same Word which is Christ.




Your assertion that other religions contain an “undercurrent” of truth THEREFORE using logic prayer works for everyone is NOT Biblical. In fact it stands in direct contradiction to the Word of God. Worship, prayers to, serving, bowing down to ANY God other then the Creator is in VAIN! Even worshiping God with man made tradition RATHER then His simple truth is in vain. God asks that ALL simply follow His Word…..NO MORE, NO LESS.
The example of the human Christ was to pray ONLY to the Father. Any other prayer is in vain.
Elijah proved this at Mt Carmel. There is ONLY ONE God…our prayers are either to Him or not. If theyre not they are in vain and have no saving power.


Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Ex 20:3

And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth. Ex 23:3

Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you; Deut 6:14

Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them; Deut 11:6

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Deut 17:2-4

With whom the LORD had made a covenant, and charged them, saying, Ye shall not fear other gods, nor bow yourselves to them, nor serve them, nor sacrifice to them: 2 kings 17:35

And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt. Jer 25:6

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Matt 15:9

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Matt 7:22-24


And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.
Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men.
Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under:
And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.

And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under.
And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.
And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.
And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down.
And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:
And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.
And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.
And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.
And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.
And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.


According to Scripture - Prayer to God the Creator has saving grace and power. Prayer to other gods are in vain and not acceptable to our Creator.

[trini_gsr]

totally off topic, but trini_gsr I saw your name and I'm wanting some roti and doubles now...

back on topic, I do know there's but one God, but I'm a little lost on your answer as to if there are multiple "view" of God (i.e. God, Allah, etc.) Are you saying that (my) God has placed different "views" of himself in different cultures, where in the end it all leads back to him?

If so, I don't agree. To purposely have multiple views of God is not in His nature. I wont go on since I don't know your answer.

lol...been a minute since i had doubles. never had them in atl...personally i find the roti shops here in atlanta are decent at best. i just get my fix when i visit the fam back in south FL...

but anyways...to answer your question, I'd say that the "end of the road" is going to mean different things to different people, depending on their spirituality. But I don't think it's something God does on purpose. I just think it's a little arrogant to expect every single culture in the entire world, with all their myriad differences, to have the exact same concepts about something as complex as God and spirituality.

but let me ask you this question - how do you know what God's nature is? and what makes your source of information superior to anyone else's, objectively speaking?

[metalman]

To purposely have multiple views of God is not in His nature.

Exactly! One God, one Creator, one Saviour, one truth for ALL.

People want to think in that as long as they serve 'a god' that is sufficient.
Frankly, the idea of questioning God's sovereignty is the heart of Lucifer's rebellion.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Is 14:12-14

[trini_gsr]

Whenever I reason through matters of a spiritual nature I refer to Christ for my answer. First in His example which is the perfect example for ALL and second in His Word which is perfect in wisdom.
His example always encompassed BOTH of these priciples. He always answered with an IT IS WRITTEN, or THUS SAYETH THE LORD. He always used the Scripture for His answer.
Christ IS the Word. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Your answers to my questions utilize NEITHER of those principles but rely instead on human reasoning. I am deeply troubled by that fact. I am also troubled by the fact that your reasoning in some case contradicts the plain Word of Scripture sharply. Keep in mind I heartily endorse our God given freedom of concience and you are free to choose whatever ‘belief system’ that you wish and the subsequent outcome of that system…BUT…what does the Bible/Christ our example say with regard to the questions asked?

lol...i knew when you asked me those questions, this is how you were going to respond. and i am sorry that you are troubled by the fact that i think rationally about these subjects. but it goes back to what someone else said in this thread - you can't use the Bible as evidence for the validity of the Bible...

religion has been used to pull the wool over people's eyes throughout history, precisely because people are afraid to turn a critical eye to their beliefs. when i was a teenager and i came to find out how black people learned about christianity largely through the vehicle of slavery, i felt compelled to take a scrutinizing look at the religion that was used as one of the tools of enslaving my ancestors. what this meant was, i had to put aside all notions and biases that i picked up growing up, and critically look at christianity exactly as it stood...and it wasn't the easiest thing to do.

doing so put me on the road i am on now...and i have learned a great deal about the nature of spirituality and religion since then. probably the biggest lesson i've learned is that the "path to God" is a personal one, shaped by your experiences as you go through life. and it's not about the end result, nearly as much as it's about just trodding the path, because that's how you build that personal relationship with God, which is what's REALLY important.

the key thing we disagree on, i think, is that i no longer just accept the Bible as a 100% accurate document without question. when you study history and the evolution of the Bible, and see how man has had his hand in manipulating it, as well as the true origins for several of the ideas found there, i don't see how you can. you say we shouldn't rely on reason...but it's my opinion God gave us brains for a purpose.

it's cool that you look to the Bible for answers on all things spiritual, as that's your chosen guidebook. the Bible is excellent for that. what i am saying is that when a muslim does the same with the Koran, or a buddhist with his teachings from Buddha, or a witchdoctor with his oral traditions...really and truly...nobody has any real grounds to say one is right and the others are wrong. the only source of validation is experience - which is culturally shaped and totally subjective. all you can do is use what works best for you to build your relationship with God. that's all i'm saying...

[trini_gsr]

Exactly! One God, one Creator, one Saviour, one truth for ALL.

People want to think in that as long as they serve 'a god' that is sufficient.
Frankly, the idea of questioning God's sovereignty is the heart of Lucifer's rebellion.


lol. are you serious? nobody's questioning God's sovereignty here. It's the very idea of what God means to different ppl that we're discussing. Again, you feel it's reasonable to limit God and put him in a nice neat little christian box. And to tell everyone if they don't see it your way...then they have to be wrong.

again I ask you...what gives you the authority to make a claim like that? Why is your holy book better than theirs? either side can say "oh it's because my God told me so." doesn't this seem just a TAD elitist? This is the same mentality that promotes intolerance between cultures, and allowed for the Crusades, the Inquisitions, and even slavery to last for as long as it did.

You guys need to really broaden your horizons...and try thinking outside of the box. I suggest you sit down and speak with some devout ppl with different cultures and religious backgrounds about their experiences...then maybe you won't be able to so easily dismiss them...

[Romeyo07]

trini...you've gotta tell me where I can find a place that makes roti here in North Atlanta.

[trini_gsr]

check your PM

[metalman]

.

...how you build that personal relationship with God, which is what's REALLY important.

the key thing we disagree on, i think, is that i no longer just accept the Bible as a 100% accurate document without question.

Pretty hard to build much of a relationship with God our Creator if we ignore, trivialize, or do not believe His Word. The Bible and Christ are synonymous, to dismiss one even a small percentage as "not accurate" is to dismiss the other in the same sense.
Indeed...as I suspected when reading your paragraphs of human logic, we are miles apart then.
I am sorry you have lost faith in Gods Word...whatever the reason.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. John 8:47

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Eph 6:17

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom 10:17

But he (Jesus)answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Matt 4:4

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Prov 30:5-6

The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. Is 40:8

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Heb 4:12

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him 1 John 2:4,5

[trini_gsr]

Pretty hard to build much of a relationship with God our Creator if we ignore, trivialize, or do not believe His Word. The Bible and Christ are synonymous, to dismiss one even a small percentage as "not accurate" is to dismiss the other in the same sense.
Indeed...as I suspected when reading your paragraphs of human logic, we are miles apart then.
I am sorry you have lost faith in Gods Word...whatever the reason.


i guess i have lost faith that God's Word is only contained within the Bible. the experiences i have had just don't allow me to remain that naive or arrogant any longer. i have long passed that point of naivete on my journey. But I don't ignore or trivialise the Bible, nor do I ignore or trivialise anybody else's beliefs or relationship with the Creator, just because it doesn't align with my own.

Maybe it's just an ego problem we have in the west where we expect everyone to conform to our way of doing things...but the world is a really big place. Christians believe they can look to nature to find evidence of God's handiwork and design. Just like different cultures have developed different languages to communicate with each other and describe life as they experience it...what makes you think the same wouldn't go for religions. I will take it a step further and note that religions frequently borrow from one another, as many of the ideas in Christianity are not original.

It's like looking through one window on a wall in a house, and believing you can describe everything outside. You might see mountains, someone else looking through a different window might see trees...nobody's view is less valid than the next. But it's all a part of the totality of what exists outside the house - we can't see it because we are on the inside looking out. All religions to me fundamentally are different cultural views of our Creator.

This isn't a simple matter of 1+1=2. lol, even in that example, that assumes a base 10 number system - 1+1 = 10 in binary. But because you are unwilling to objectively examine christianity, and you scrutinize every other religion with a bias...we'll just have to agree to disagree.

It also seems you have a fundamental problem with human logic. Again, God gave us brains for a reason. Logic is not a sin. We are made in God's image and have the same abilities he does, just obviously not on as grand a scale. God gave us our cognition so we could USE it to ponder this universe that we live in, evolve (a dirty word apparently, lol) and grow. Not just believe blindly and remain stagnant.

[Romeyo07]

I don't think as humans we've ever been stagnant. Using our logic helps us to keep from being stagnant. However, there will always be a difference between my logic and yours (not you directly).

My logic tells me that this world is too complex, too right for us to live in, etc. that it's almost impossible for this all to come together by CHANCE. This gives my life no meaning, no purpose. I just so happen to come about and be alive. I can try to fill my life with meaning (work, family, friends, etc.), but would still feel empty because I just got lucky. There's nothing special about me cause I could have been skipped in this evolution game.

With God, I have a purpose, I have value, I have meaning, etc. He fills that void that can't be filled by friends and family, big houses, fast cars, women, etc. Instead of accidentally being here, I'm here because he wants me here.

I can go on but I've gotta start working.

[metalman]

i guess i have lost faith that God's Word is only contained within the Bible.....

....Maybe it's just an ego problem we have in the west where we expect everyone to conform to our way of doing things...but the world is a really big place.

....All religions to me fundamentally are different cultural views of our Creator....



I have no problem with logic or human reasoning as long as it falls within the boundaries of our Creators revealed will and truth. Your right, God created within us a brain so that we could CHOOSE to follow Him or not. He gave us intelligence and understanding so that we might appreciate Him and learn of Him in addition to enjoying what He created for us.
As His Word says, "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve...." God or self.

The "narrow way" is God's, Christ Jesus our Creators religion...its HIS Gospel truth, not mine. I didnt author it, I didnt design it, I didnt do a consultation on it, I get NO credit for any of it. Its NOT mine. Because there is but ONE Creator God there is but ONE truth. Conforming to our Creator's Gospel truth is NOT an invention of the west. Conforming to the principles of Christ is the religion HE authored. Its the whole reason Christ came here and died. It is in fact what is BEST for all mankind. Therin lies the problem for sinful man. Man thinks he knows best. If you or anyone has an issue with God's religion your issue is with the Author.

Mankind prefers his own reasoning, questioning the wisdom of Gods design, questioning Gods infinite plan, putting his own wisdom and logic above Gods revealed will, above His Word. "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:..." and that is the seed of Lucifers rebellion and the source of all evil in this world.

Your right, the world is a big place, so is the universe, but God is the Creator and Lord of it ALL. There is none other. His Word & truth endures forever. His Word & His example show us clearly that all religions are NOT authored by Him. His Word and revealed will also show that all worship is NOT accepted by him. Even some that worship in His name will be told to "depart" and are "spewed out of His mouth.." in the day he returns.

Choosing to follow ones own will, or put ones own logic, reasoning, intellect etc ABOVE Gods "seemth right unto a man but the end thereof is destruction"

There are only two paths to follow for ALL humanity. Those who walk in 'perfection' with Christ follow all the 'light'/truth they know, if but a little.
His light and truth is being spread across the entire world....when that work is concluded He will return to "gather the faithful" that have kept His word. Those who havent will be judged accordingly.