standalone and piggyback discussion

[kenscivic]

K-Pro is not and was never considered a piggyback.

A Piggyback modifies the signals between the stock ECU and engine. The K-Pro allows you to program the stock ECU.

The K-Pro should be considered a standalone - as it needs no other circuitry to function i.e. it stands alone.

Compared to aftermarket ECU replacements it has the advantage of stock ECU reliability and great base maps. Aftermarket replacements will have the advantage of real time programmability and maybe a few more inputs and outputs.

There yah go vtec kid, it turns out i was right and you were wrong, thats got to burn just a little bit eh? :D

[A.P. Photography]

Somebody listened, lol. Good job on doing research :goodjob:

[kenscivic]

Somebody listened, lol. Good job on doing research :goodjob:


yah i figured, i should cuz im an "expendable" member on this board ;)

[Vteckidd]

Personally, i think its still wrong. KPRO still runs off FACTORY ECU parameters, so how is it a standalone?

im busy ill comment on this later

[speedminded]

There yah go vtec kid, it turns out i was right and you were wrong, thats got to burn just a little bit eh? :DHow many times have you tuned a car on a dyno?




It is neither a stand-alone nor a piggy-back. You are just as wrong as the other person. If you would like to argue more, you know where to find me. A K-Pro does not overlay maps and alter a multitude of signals by tricking the ECU, it actually allows you to alter fields just as a stand-alone does.Technically it is not a piggy-back because it is not using a "stock" ECU and allows you modify options at the source instead of just altering the signal as a S-AFC or V-AFC would BUT it works in conjunction with a "bolt on" item to a stock ECU so in theory it is a piggy back to the OEM setup...especially if you compare it to a AEM EMS or Motek that replaces the OEM ECU completely and is ready to go out of the box [with tuning of course].

[FDslider]

I agree with Vteckidd. Sorry Kenscivic, you DO know what you are talking about, I'll give you that, but it is a "piggyback".

[EP3sAreFun]

I agree with Vteckidd. Sorry Kenscivic, you DO know what you are talking about, I'll give you that, but it is a "piggyback".
why dont you do the smart thing and say WHY you think its a piggyback instead of looking like a cheerleader?

[EP3sAreFun]

oh and my stance on the whole thing is that it is both.

Yes It uses the factory ECU along with what Vteckidd says that makes it a piggy back but due to the fact that it completely rewrites the ECU and does not simply alter the reading from there to the sensors, it mimics a stand alone.

I say its Neither.

But the point is... its awsome

[Vteckidd]

so if KPRO is not a piggy back , then what do you guys classify S300 and S200 as?

[speedminded]

so if KPRO is not a piggy back , then what do you guys classify S300 and S200 as?



All piggyback computers have one thing in common. They run a microprocessor separate from the ecu's microprocessor to take over command and control of several of the sensors / injectors/ ignition etc. Typically wires are cut or intecepted in a piggybacked system

The Hondata system does not work in conjunction with the stock ECU. It is the stock ECU. It is a modified stock ECU that is upgraded to be programmable. It uses only the stock microprocessor. By this definition the Hondata system is not a piggyback. Had we integrated and built our interface unit so that it fitted inside the ECU, there would have been far less confusion.

The interface box for the S200 systems we attatch, serves as an interface for datalogging and for connecting a clutch switch. No wires are cut or intecepted between the ECU and the sensors.

The S100 systems are completely internal, but lack these features.

There are various methods of programming the ECU from real time using the ROMulator to removing and reflashing the chip we provide. The options are there simply to lower the entry level cost for those people who simply want a well tuned system and do not want to make any changes. These people actually make up about 80 + percent of the people who buy a Hondata system. Adding real time programing for every system would substantially increase the cost.

The Hondata system is a standalone with various levels of reprogramming capabilities depending on the options purchasedI don't exactly agree with his last sentence, it's still using the OEM ECU, not replacing it....i can't win, you can't win...nobody wins!

[kenscivic]

agreed, i think we were both wrong vtec kidd.. It can't be classified as a piggyback or really a standalone , like hondata states it MIMICS a standalone, this does not say it is a stand alone but acts like one right?

Since it actually re writes the programs instead of just tricking the factory ecu, it is not a piggyback.


and to the person asking how many cars i have Toon'D , why does this matter? I did not pull the information out of my ass, hondata posts on the ep message board i frequent and they replied to a thread about me asking if kpro is a piggyback or standalone..

So i guess a better question you should ask is how many cars has hondata tuned ;)..

[A.P. Photography]

Ok we are going to go by a check list here and see which one it falls close too.



Stand Alone (http://www.answers.com/topic/standalone)
Self-contained and usually independently operating - No

Piggyback (http://www.answers.com/topic/piggyback)
In connection with something larger or more important - Yes

By def. the K-pro would be considered a piggyback, regardless of what it does it cannot function solely on its own and has to have the ECU to function. Without the ECU the Kpro cannot run the vehicle. Just my :2cents:

[Vteckidd]

Ok we are going to go by a check list here and see which one it falls close too.



Stand Alone (http://www.answers.com/topic/standalone)
Self-contained and usually independently operating - No

Piggyback (http://www.answers.com/topic/piggyback)
In connection with something larger or more important - Yes

By def. the K-pro would be considered a piggyback, regardless of what it does it cannot function solely on its own and has to have the ECU to function. Without the ECU the Kpro cannot run the vehicle. Just my :2cents:
which is exatly my arguement.

Standalone does not need the ECU to operate the vehicle. KPRO does, REGARDLESS of what Hondata says

[HiPSI]

i'd say it's more like a standalone than a piggyback, but doesn't really fall specificially under either classification. you are programming the information directly to the ECU, not into another separate processor that is changing signals in/out of the ECU.

maybe just call it a "tuned ROM" with direct interface?

[HiPSI]

which is exatly my arguement.

Standalone does not need the ECU to operate the vehicle. KPRO does, REGARDLESS of what Hondata says

but in essence the factory ECU is becoming a standalone with the install.

[speedminded]

Ok we are going to go by a check list here and see which one it falls close too.



Stand Alone (http://www.answers.com/topic/standalone)
Self-contained and usually independently operating - No

Piggyback (http://www.answers.com/topic/piggyback)
In connection with something larger or more important - Yes

By def. the K-pro would be considered a piggyback, regardless of what it does it cannot function solely on its own and has to have the ECU to function. Without the ECU the Kpro cannot run the vehicle. Just my :2cents:Now if K-pro/Hondata took a honda ecu, installed all their necessary hardware, changed the ecu cover to something branding their company, then sold it complete, then it could be considered a stand-alone but as of now it's just a kit that is used in conjunction with the factory ECU.

[A.P. Photography]

Now if K-pro/Hondata took a honda ecu, installed all their necessary hardware, changed the ecu cover to something branding their company, then sold it complete, then it could be considered a stand-alone but as of now it's just a kit that is used in conjunction with the factory ECU.
I agree and which, by def., is a Piggyback.

[99SI]

lol, WORTHLESS THREAD, WORTHLESS THREAD. lol. I do agree though that the K-Pro is much more advanced than a piggyback labeling would imply although it is still not a stand alone. By the name itself, a stand alone must be able to function on its own. I don't know if it is a pride thing or whatever with hondata but I would simply state that it is a revolutionary idea that keeps it under the price of most stand alones while giving you a much larger tuning platform than a piggyback. blah blah blah. Bottom line, if you have a K series and want to modify it or go faster by a damn Kpro and who gives a fuck what you call it. I call it a damn Kpro.

[kenscivic]

Now if K-pro/Hondata took a honda ecu, installed all their necessary hardware, changed the ecu cover to something branding their company, then sold it complete, then it could be considered a stand-alone but as of now it's just a kit that is used in conjunction with the factory ECU.


you have choices, you can buy kpro without them using your factory ecu, instead of 800-1000$ it costs 1500$


so are you saying that would be considered "stand alone" but sending in your ecu would be considered piggyback? :confused: even though it is the same exact thing

[speedminded]

you have choices, you can buy kpro without them using your factory ecu, instead of 800-1000$ it costs 1500$


so are you saying that would be considered "stand alone" but sending in your ecu would be considered piggyback? :confused: even though it is the same exact thingi couldn't have said it any more clearly...


Now if K-pro/Hondata took a honda ecu (as in bought a truckload from honda), installed all their necessary hardware (soldered in and attached all the things they sell), changed the ecu cover to something branding their company (made the ecu cover their own item, as in changing the physical appearance of it with their own thing), then sold it complete (as in a box with everything just as if you were buying an AEM EMS), then it could be considered a stand-alone BUT as of now it's just a kit that is used in conjunction with the factory ECU (as in you buy the parts and pieces to incorporate those items to you existing ECU).

[kenscivic]

i couldn't have said it any more clearly...


Now if K-pro/Hondata took a honda ecu (as in bought a truckload from honda), installed all their necessary hardware (soldered in and attached all the things they sell), changed the ecu cover to something branding their company (made the ecu cover their own item, as in changing the physical appearance of it with their own thing), then sold it complete (as in a box with everything just as if you were buying an AEM EMS), then it could be considered a stand-alone BUT as of now it's just a kit that is used in conjunction with the factory ECU (as in you buy the parts and pieces to incorporate those items to you existing ECU).


but they DO sell it as a package also... so lets say i pay 1500$ for the "hondata" one and one i send my ecu in for the 800$ one, they both do the same exact thing, look exactly the same, the 1500$ one is a stand alone and the 800$ is a piggyback?

[A.P. Photography]

Funny thing is we can sit here and argue till the end of the world, everyone will still have their own opinions.

[kenscivic]

Funny thing is we can sit here and argue till the end of the world, everyone will still have their own opinions.


best quote ever!


:tongue:

[Vteckidd]

IMO, its still a piggyback because Hondata KPRO requires use of a TPS signal and a MAP/MAF sensor. You cannot buy KPRO and run it without your ecu, it still uses a FACTORY ECU.

EMS on the other hand, is allowed to run by itself WITHOUT a HONDA ECU. you can do individual cylinder tuning, Run map based or tps bases tuning , run carburated if you wanted to, because EMS will understand what you tell it to.

KPRO only understands within the factory honda ecu parameters

[kenscivic]

IMO, its still a piggyback because Hondata KPRO requires use of a TPS signal and a MAP/MAF sensor. You cannot buy KPRO and run it without your ecu, it still uses a FACTORY ECU.

EMS on the other hand, is allowed to run by itself WITHOUT a HONDA ECU. you can do individual cylinder tuning, Run map based or tps bases tuning , run carburated if you wanted to, because EMS will understand what you tell it to.

KPRO only understands within the factory honda ecu parameters

i understand that even the 1500$ kpro where you dont need to send in your ecu still is based upon a honda ecu i was just trying to make a point to the one guy , it could of just been how i read what he said.

let us just agree to disagree.

[O3EP]

A factory ecu is considered a standalone engine management unit since it alone is managing your engine whether or not it can control individual cylinders or not is irrelevant. The only entity controlling your engine is that computer. when you buy an aem pems you are buying a different stand alone computer to replace the factory computer that currently handles all engine management parameters. When you buy KPro you are buying a computer that wholly on its own will manage your engine. There is a board inside the KPro that allows the user to interface directly with the code that manages said engine and software on a PC that interprets that code and allows it to be programmed. Sure the AEM is more versatile in terms of sensor inputs and such, but it's function is the same; to manage your engine on it's own. Yes the KPro needs a factory ecu to function because it is a factory ecu that is programmable. Nowhere is it stipulated that a standalone engine management system must be an aftermarket piece of hardware.

[99SI]

lol, WORTHLESS THREAD, WORTHLESS THREAD. lol. I do agree though that the K-Pro is much more advanced than a piggyback labeling would imply although it is still not a stand alone. By the name itself, a stand alone must be able to function on its own. I don't know if it is a pride thing or whatever with hondata but I would simply state that it is a revolutionary idea that keeps it under the price of most stand alones while giving you a much larger tuning platform than a piggyback. blah blah blah. Bottom line, if you have a K series and want to modify it or go faster by a damn Kpro and who gives a fuck what you call it. I call it a damn Kpro.
I hate quoting myself but I feel like it may be appropriate. :blah: :rolleyes:

[Vteckidd]

SWEET, all hondas have standalone Engine managment now!

*sarcasm*

look we are all splitting hairs. In LAYMANS terms, last try:

5 years ago there were 2 forms of Engine Management, piggybacks, and FULL STANDALONE.

Piggybacks back then were:
Greddy Emanage
Apex VAFC
Apex SAFC

Full Standalone:
Motec
AEM EMS
DTA

Now, with the proliferation of ecu chipping, romulators etc, tuning has become MUCH easier. Hondata came out with the S100 , then S200. The s200 used a Blue Box that encrypted their ECU coding to allow ONLY hondata authorized dealers to tune the system. Then came Uberdata and Crome, BRE, Turbo Edit etc. Built on the same parameters except it was OPEN SOURCE aka FREE to download an interface.

Now Hondata has the KPRO and the S300 that dont require you to be an authorized dealer to tune their system. However, thats the ONLY thing that changed. It still requires that you use a FACTORY ecu. Their system is basically a "hack" that overrides CERTAIN ECU procedures to allow you to change vtec, air/ ignition, fuel curves. They allow launch control, boost tables, etc. ALMOST the same thing a standalone would let you do, but it still requires that you use HONDAs code system, and HONDAs ECU.

AEM EMS , DTA, MOTEC, etc use THEIR OWN CODE. They do not modify their CODE to work with your FACTORY ECU. Which is why a STANDALONE allows so much more functionality than a PIGGYBACK. They can do whatever you tell them. Piggybacks MUST stay within the factory CODE. Which is why a KPRO cannot run carburators, and why S200 cannot run Coil packs on the old B series engines, EMS can.

In closing, if you want to be TECHNICAL, KPRO is a PIGGYBACK, AEM is a full standalone

[speedminded]

SWEET, all hondas have standalone Engine managment now!

*sarcasm*

look we are all splitting hairs. In LAYMANS terms, last try:

5 years ago there were 2 forms of Engine Management, piggybacks, and FULL STANDALONE.

Piggybacks back then were:
Greddy Emanage
Apex VAFC
Apex SAFC

Full Standalone:
Motec
AEM EMS
DTA

Now, with the proliferation of ecu chipping, romulators etc, tuning has become MUCH easier. Hondata came out with the S100 , then S200. The s200 used a Blue Box that encrypted their ECU coding to allow ONLY hondata authorized dealers to tune the system. Then came Uberdata and Crome, BRE, Turbo Edit etc. Built on the same parameters except it was OPEN SOURCE aka FREE to download an interface.

Now Hondata has the KPRO and the S300 that dont require you to be an authorized dealer to tune their system. However, thats the ONLY thing that changed. It still requires that you use a FACTORY ecu. Their system is basically a "hack" that overrides CERTAIN ECU procedures to allow you to change vtec, air/ ignition, fuel curves. They allow launch control, boost tables, etc. ALMOST the same thing a standalone would let you do, but it still requires that you use HONDAs code system, and HONDAs ECU.

AEM EMS , DTA, MOTEC, etc use THEIR OWN CODE. They do not modify their CODE to work with your FACTORY ECU. Which is why a STANDALONE allows so much more functionality than a PIGGYBACK. They can do whatever you tell them. Piggybacks MUST stay within the factory CODE. Which is why a KPRO cannot run carburators, and why S200 cannot run Coil packs on the old B series engines, EMS can.

In closing, if you want to be TECHNICAL, KPRO is a PIGGYBACK, AEM is a full standaloneding ding ding, we have a winner.

[imbosile]

ding ding ding, we have a winner.

yep

[Hondata1]

You need to be very careful not to confuse your opinion with facts.


Which is why a KPRO cannot run carburators,

Wrong. I have tuned such a system.


Their system is basically a "hack" that overrides CERTAIN ECU procedures to allow you to change vtec, air/ ignition, fuel curves.

Wrong again.

Hondata adds a substantial amount of new code to add functions and features that did not exist in the stock ECU. For example.

- Boost
- Boost by gear
- Nitrous control
- USB datalogging
- etc


and why S200 cannot run Coil packs on the old B series engines

One of the disadvantages of using the factory computer is you are limited to the inputs and outputs Honda provide, although you can alter their function. If you need coil packs on a B series then the S300 will not be suitable. You would need to purchase a standalone like:

- Motec
- AEM EMS
- DTA
- K-Pro

Yes - the K-Pro could run a B series engine with coil packs.

Just like the S200 systems have been used to drive VW golfs and Toyota AE86 drift cars.



In closing, if you want to be TECHNICAL, KPRO is a PIGGYBACK

Wrong yet again.

The piggybacks you quote:

- Greddy Emanage
- Apex VAFC
- Apex SAFC

All have these aspects in common common: They run a microprocessor separate from the ecu's microprocessor to take over command and control of several of the sensors / injectors/ ignition etc. Typically wires are cut or intercepted in a piggybacked system.

This was very clearly posted earlier in this thread. Please read it.

The piggybacks you list cannot run the car by themselves.

The K-Pro and S300/200 can. They read the sensor inputs and drive the outputs directly, with custom written code, just like a standalone. And they can drive engines other than what they were designed for.

[EP3sAreFun]

how about this explanation...

K-Pro is simply the program. a Factory ECU with another company's chips are needed to run K-Pro on a K series ECU. The Hardware is still Honda, as is the Actual code that gets sent out. Where as with a "true" stand alone, every bit of hardware including the case, conncetors and everything in the unit is put their for the purpose of it being a stand alone engine management. One could say that you are using the K-Pro program as a piggyback on the Honda hardware(ECU) for the original Honda programming.

[Hondata1]

how about this explanation...



The majority of what we do is software, so to consider it as a program is close. The use of piggyback in this respect is not correct. Consider it more like a substantial software upgrade to the stock ECU's software.

[EP3sAreFun]

. Consider it more like a substantial software upgrade to the stock ECU's software.

Thats pretty much what i wanted to say, just couldnt figure out the words

[Vteckidd]

I take it this is Doug, well then i stand corrected. Welcome to the site as well.

I didnt know HONDATA was capable of tuning carbed cars , or that it was compatable with other vehicles besides honda.

please, educate us.

[Vteckidd]

One of the disadvantages of using the factory computer is you are limited to the inputs and outputs Honda provide, although you can alter their function

This is my definition of a PIGGYBACK. You must stay within the ECUs parameters or original code. Yes you can write your own code that coexists, but your still having to abide by their rules, correct?

Also, if you can run KPRO on B series motors and do coil packs, then why arent people doing it? That would eliminate the need to buy a $1500 EMS with a $300 CDI2 box correct?

I also understand that the Emanange was interpreting signals with a seperate microprocessor. maybe that was a bad analogie, my apolagies.

Doug or whoever this is, im not bashing, you make a great product, and we use it all the time, especially KPRO. its a great system and i reccomend it to alot of our customer OVER the AEM simply for price and functionality. this thread was about the difference between the 2

Mike
Vteckidd
Mainstream Performance

[Hondata1]

I take it this is Doug, well then i stand corrected. Welcome to the site as well.



Thank you. Yes this is Doug - one of the two founders of Hondata.

Tuning carbs is not that popular though. ITBs with fuel injectors are much easier.

[Vteckidd]

^^ I agree lol. Wow, this is really cool to have someone as regarded as you in our forum. Once again , thanks for your contributions to this thread, and i stand corrected. Thanks for participating in this discussion

[Hondata1]

This is my definition of a PIGGYBACK. You must stay within the ECUs parameters or original code. Yes you can write your own code that coexists, but your still having to abide by their rules, correct?

No, we make the rules, because we write the code. For example we turn a purge control valve output into a boost control output. We could turn the ECU into an environmental control system for your house for example.



Also, if you can run KPRO on B series motors and do coil packs, then why arent people doing it?

Probably cost. K-Pro would cost a little more than something like an AEM EMS in this situation. The number of units we would sell for doing coil pack ignition on a B series would not justify our effort and the subsequent tech support.



OVER the AEM simply for price and functionality. this thread was about the difference between the 2



The stock Honda ECU has far more comprehensive mapping than any after market engine management system. Literally, there is an extra third dimension to tuning - the cam angle.

The stock K20 Honda fuel maps consist of 6 lowcam maps, for each cam angle 0-50 degrees and 6 highcam maps for each cam angle.

The fuel data is stored in 16 bit resolution, 20 RPM by 10 map sensor positions. So, we have 2* 6 * 20 * 10 = 2400 data points of 16 bit resolution.

Hondata increases the map sensor resolution, so the K-Pro maps have 2 * 6 * 20 * 16 points = 3840 points of 16 bit resolution.

Here is an example of just the low cam fuel maps. Double this to include the high cam fuel maps.

http://www.hondata.com/images/kmanager-lowcamfueltables.gif

There are two reasons for the multiplicity of maps. The first is that the volumetric efficiency of the engine varies considerably between each cam angle. You can see this clearly if you look at any of the 2d maps for the highcam fuel on a tuned NA motor.

The second is something called cam lag. If you examine datalogs, you will find the actual cam angle sometimes lags behind the specified cam angle. When this is the case, the stock Honda mapping provides the fueling and ignition for the angle the cam is actually at, and not what you specify.

Have you gone through the training videos here?:

http://www.hondata.com/techk-protraining.html

This will teach you the best tuning techniques.


Aftermarket engine management systems do have more flexibility than the K-Pro, like real time programming and specifying inputs and outputs - using 4 EGT probes for example.


You cannot condense all the many maps Honda uses in their ECU into one (or perhaps 2) maps and expect the car to run as well across all conditions.

[A.P. Photography]

Just wanted to say Welcome Doug and thanks for participating and helping clear the air on this matter.

[Vteckidd]

you mentioned volumetric efficiency, thank god. Lots of people dont know what that is.

i will watch that training video so i can learn more.

good info. Explains alot more than i knew.

[kenscivic]

Thanks doug..

[Vteckidd]

Thanks doug..


now real quick, everybody that ran their mouths and told me i was wrong , i wish for a written apology , please pm me , i will relay my home address.
DONT get cocky, basically, neither of us is right

[kenscivic]

DONT get cocky, basically, neither of us is right


"neither of us ARE right" ;)

[BTLFED]

Holy crap! Doug from Hondata on Import Atlanta?! I can't believe it! :eek:

Welcome, Doug, and thank you for coming on here and clearing this up. These two would have kept this pissing contest up until the cows came home lol!

I, for one, have been very happy with my Hondata in my CRX, even though it is an old Stage 2b system. I just wish Dan at Batlground Engineering could tune it. :(

[speedminded]

Thank you. Yes this is Doug - one of the two founders of Hondata. Can you autograph my ECU? :D

[FDslider]

why dont you do the smart thing and say WHY you think its a piggyback instead of looking like a cheerleader?
because I don't have to. I knew Doug from Hondata would come along and clear things up for everyone! Now I am waiting for Chuck Norris to come to IA and stomp your ass!