"Jesus" on the toast?

[metalman]

http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping912.jpg

What do you make of these "jesus" and "virgin mary" appearances on windows, concrete stains, toast, trees etc etc?

I have a few thoughts...what are yours? :)

[Kelly]

I dunno... It's interesting. What's your thoughts on it?

[4dmin]

i think people like to create images in their minds so they can relate relife to it... seriously Jesus on toast! If a virgin getting pregnant isn't far fetched enough... :rolleyes:

Its like driving in the car when you are a kid and looking at clouds... HOLY SHIT I SEE A DRAGON ;)

[Killer]

well God/Jesus have many ways of letting people know he's always right there... but be littling himself to toast.... that's an easy fraud there...

[metalman]

I dunno... It's interesting. What's your thoughts on it?

What makes it interesting to you? :)

[Kelly]

What's not interesting about it is the question. It looks just like Jesus hanging on the cross. It's very interesting. almost like someone carved it themselves.

[Kelly]

What do you think about it... It and stigmata's and such...

(I'm about to leave work so I may not get to post anymore til tomorrow)

[metalman]

What's not interesting about it is the question. It looks just like Jesus hanging on the cross. It's very interesting. almost like someone carved it themselves.

Youre confusing me...its not interesting or it is??
Maybe I cant read. ;)

I am not trying to "set up" anyone with the question. Just wondered what others thoughts are and how they see this stuff.

[metalman]

Here's another one...mary in the window

http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping596.jpg

[Hulud]

i just think people are trying to find things to prove theres a god

[Kelly]

Youre confusing me...its not interesting or it is??
Maybe I cant read. ;)

I am not trying to "set up" anyone with the question. Just wondered what others thoughts are and how they see this stuff.

Sorry... I do think it's interesting... I'll leave it at that.

[metalman]

All right...I agree with some of the sentiments expressed, at least in part.
Not sure what Kelly thinks in that she won't tell us. ;)

Here's the thing...I have noticed a number of things in regard to these sightings. Listed in no particular order...

1. Many if not most "sightings" are of "Mary".

Did Mary sit for a portrait? Was there a photo snapped of her that I am not aware of? How does ANYONE know what she looks like? Why is it the only sources for this idea of her looks are roman catholic? (for the most part)
Who is to say this isnt Martha? Or Susan? Raquel Welsh or some other woman? ;)
In addition, if I read the Bible it teaches that Mary is DEAD, she is "asleep"
She has no thoughts. Ps 146:3,4
She knows NOTHING.
She has no memory.
She has no love or emotion.
And she has NOTHING to do with anything that happens under the sun.
Ecl 9:5,6

I have been deep in the woods along a mountain ridge with a friend looking for caves to explore. (called spelunking) On my hike I ran across a tree, just like the ones with "Mary" on them...only this one had a perfectly formed vagina on it. Thats right, you read correctly. It even had what appeared to be legs that were opened. Soooo...if this were the face of "Mary" instead, there would be a long line of "pilgrims" waiting to view it and PRAY TO IT. (Idolotry) Which brings up another issue...God is against idolotry, He certianly would NOT manifest Himself in any form that encouraged such behavior and ALWAYS results in it.
Am I to believe some pagan deity put that female form on that tree?? Did God put it there for me to look at because I am hetrosexual? Would my wife really appreciate that? ;)
Okay, I am mocking a bit I admit.
Truth is it just grew that way and only LOOKs like something...and that fact is only a coincidence and has no basis in ANYTHING of God. Same with "Marys face" or Susans face or the potato chip I had that looked like Abe Lincoln.

2. Almost all sightings of these type are "discovered" by people whos religions are primarily superstition and worship of the dead. That in itself should tell one something.

3. The devil seeks to destroy & decieve "the very elect" (intelligent) if that is possible...and it is with some people. Do you really think its some big deal for him to "appear" or cause unexplained tricks (blood etc) to decieve people??? I sure dont.
It further bolsters the false notion that dead people arent really dead, which is in the devils best interest. Afterall, he is the one that started the big lie to begin with...YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE. Saul the king of the Bible was "fooled" at least momentarily by an impersonation of Samuel the prophet when he consulted the necromancer, the witch of Endor. Ultimately that lead to his destruction....exactly what the devil wanted.

4. The righteous (including Mary, Martha and anyone who is righteous) will be raised from the dead and GIVEN LIFE (which they do not now have) at the last day...when Christ comes in the clouds of glory. John 6:39, 40, 44
Theyre not to "appear" anywhere before then. And......

5. Neither is Christ. Mark 13:31, Matt 24:23

[ISAtlanta300]

well God/Jesus have many ways of letting people know he's always right there... but be littling himself to toast.... that's an easy fraud there...

Well he DID say "eat this.. for it is my body..... " referring to bread.. :)

:)

lol


Ok. yes. that was a joke.. :)

[ISAtlanta300]

4. The righteous (including Mary, Martha and anyone who is righteous) will be raised from the dead and GIVEN LIFE (which they do not now have) at the last day...when Christ comes in the clouds of glory. John 6:39, 40, 44
Theyre not to "appear" anywhere before then. And......

5. Neither is Christ. Mark 13:31, Matt 24:23

Metal, you posted EXACTLY what I wanted to post. All these apparations, in my mind... are more coincidence that anything from the "divine".

I would say take apparitions and people who claim that "Mary" appears to them on X day of the month etc etc with a grain of salt.

It is like people praying to "Mary", which according to God's law, as I understand it, is not allowed. We should pray to God, and God only and not Idolize Mary, St. Joseph, St. Patrick etc etc etc.

[Kelly]

True. I don't understand catholics or their way of praying, etc... (maybe someone can explain)

Here's my question:
What if someone happened to see it before killing theirselves and decided not to because they thought God was trying to show them that there was hope in Him? Stuff like that is what gets me... Do you see where I'm coming from?

[metalman]

True. I don't understand catholics or their way of praying, etc... (maybe someone can explain)

Here's my question:
What if someone happened to see it before killing theirselves and decided not to because they thought God was trying to show them that there was hope in Him? Stuff like that is what gets me... Do you see where I'm coming from?

Most catholic prayers are to the dead, and in that sense they are idolotry and in vain. I don't know know how else to put it and still be honest.

As to your question, I do understand what your getting at.
If such a thing caused a person to stop a person from suicide, murder or some similar act that is no different then them ceasing from that activity because of the weather, time of day, or consideration of their family etc etc.
Simply put it doesn't prove those things are of God.
God CAN use whatever means...even a jackass, or the devil himself if needed...to reach someone. But we all know neither the devil or jackass' are "of God". Also, these sightings ALWAYS result in idolotry...something God avoids and definitely condemns. He even secreted the body of Moses away from the Israelites...and I betcha that was exactly the reason. ;)

[Kelly]

We should pray to God, and God only and not Idolize Mary, St. Joseph, St. Patrick etc etc etc.

Wait... We can pray to Jesus too. Before Jesus, we offered up sacrifices to be able to "connect" if you will, to God. Jesus came as our ultimate sacrifice-therefore we no longer offer up sacrifices (such as sheep, etc...) but we can now pray thru Him.

[metalman]

Wait... We can pray to Jesus too. Before Jesus, we offered up sacrifices to be able to "connect" if you will, to God. Jesus came as our ultimate sacrifice-therefore we no longer offer up sacrifices (such as sheep, etc...) but we can now pray thru Him.

Indeed you can. But then Jesus IS God. ;)

'I and my Father are One'

[{X}Echo419]

i think people like to create images in their minds so they can relate relife to it... seriously Jesus on toast! If a virgin getting pregnant isn't far fetched enough... :rolleyes:

Its like driving in the car when you are a kid and looking at clouds... HOLY SHIT I SEE A DRAGON ;)

yeah I agree. but who cares let them have fun

[Kelly]

Yes, but they are 2 different people as well. Obviously... Jesus was on earth in human form... I dunno, that one's confusing also. You can clear it up, I'm sure... Go for it.

[metalman]

Yes, but they are 2 different people as well. Obviously... Jesus was on earth in human form... I dunno, that one's confusing also. You can clear it up, I'm sure... Go for it.


Me clear up the mystery of the Godhead? Jesus/God in human form?
No way! Thats a subject for eternity.

But...I will tell you just a little what I have learned or noticed in the Bible.

You cannot/should not pray to angels. Angels are not God, theyre our fellow servants. If you need the text I will get it for you.

God consists of 3 enitities...the Father, Son & Holy Spirit....all 3 entities were active in Creation. (texts if you want them)

The vision/dream of Jacob...he saw a ladder and that ladder was Christ according to Scripture. That ladder reached all the way to heaven...Divinity.....and reached all the way to earth...Humanity. Jesus is the ONLY being who is both human and divine...thats why HE is the Saviour...no other being can bridge that gap. No other being was tempted in all points (and BEYOND) as are we YET maintained an unbroken connection to the Father. He provides/imparts that righteous life to anyone who wants it. Free! He is your Judge and He is also your lawyer...the verdict is fixed. Its just up to you. (all of us)

[Kelly]

Just wanted to hear your opinion on it. That's exactly what I believe. I've never even heard of ppl who do pray to angels. That'd be weird (take no offense anyone). I've grew up in church and heard all of this stuff before, about God/Jesus being one- yet not. That's always been a confusing one to me. I usually pray to God but sometimes I'll say Jesus in my prayer. I don't really think that matters because, like you said, they are one. We strongly believe in the Holy Spirit (possibly more than most). We believe that the Holy Spirit is our comforter, convictor and so much more.

[metalman]

We strongly believe in the Holy Spirit (possibly more than most). We believe that the Holy Spirit is our comforter, convictor and so much more.

Indeed. I agree.

You mentioned not understanding catholic prayers...try understanding the mass....yet so many fall for this due to the fact they don't study for themselves!


But our wonder should be far greater when we find that in obedience to the words of his priests - HOC EST CORPUS MEUM - God himself descends on the altar, that he comes wherever they call him and as often as they call him, and places himself in their hands, even though they should be be his enemies. And after having come, he remains, entirely at their disposal they move him as they please, from one place to another, they may, if they wish, shut him up in the tabernacle, expose him on the altar, or carry him outside the church; they may, if they choose, eat his flesh, and give him for the food of others. "Oh, how very great is their power," says St. Lawrence Justinian, speaking of priests. "A word falls from their lips and the body of Christ is there substantially formed from the matter of bread, and the Incarnate Word descended from heaven, is found really present on the table of the altar! Never did divine goodness give such power to the angels. The angels abide by the order of God, but the priests take him in their hands, distribute him to the faithful, and partake of him as food for themselves."

Thus the priest may, in a certain manner, be called the creator of his Creator, ...

"The power of the priest," says St. Bernadine of Sienna, "is the power of the divine person; for the transubstantiation of the bread requires as much power as the creation of the world."

As the Word of God created heaven and earth, so, says St. Jerome, the words of the priest create Jesus Christ.



The Dignity and Duties of the Priest , by St. Alphonsus de Liguori

[metalman]

More blasphemy from the same....


"According to St. Ambrose, a priest, in absolving a sinner, performs the very office of the Holy Ghost in the sanctification of souls."

"Innocent III has written: 'Indeed, it is not too much to say that in view of the sublimity of their offices the priests are so many gods.'"

[Kelly]

^^^ Very, um, different I must say.

I've gotta go home and pack. I'm going out of town ( on a church trip, imagine that ;)) this weekend, but we'll talk more monday.

Have a good weekend everybody!!!

[metalman]

With all the discussion about creation vs evolution I thought it would be fun to ressurect this topic...besides, the pope is making the news. ;)

Here are some interesting statements from "infallible" sources....for those that don't know, catholic dogma states that once a sinful human is voted in as pope he is then infallable.

“WE BELIEVE THE CHURCH IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION BECAUSE CHRIST, WHO IS THE SOLE MEDIATOR AND EXCLUSIVE WAY OF SALVATION, RENDERS HIMSELF PRESENT FOR US IN HIS BODY WHICH IS THE CHURCH. WE MUSTALWAYS REMEMBER THE UNITY OF THE MYSTICAL BODY, WITHOUT WHICH THERE CAN BE NO SALVATION, IS OPEN TO NO ONE OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.”
Pope Paul VI

“THE HOLY UNIVERSAL CHURCH PROCLAIMS THAT GOD CANNOT TRULY BE WORSHIPPED SAVE WITHIN HERSELF, AND ASSERTS THAT ALL THEY WHO ARE WITHOUT HER PALE SHALL NEVER BE SAVED.”
Pope Gregory the Great

[metalman]

This one is interesting too....evidently the whole idea of praying directly to God for forgivness of sins doesn't fly...even though the Bible clearly teaches otherwise.
As I recall my history this was a central issue for Martin Luther when in the midst of crawling up stairs on his knees to do penance for sin he suddenly realized what he had read in the Bible...'The just shall live by FAITH'.....


“THAT THERE IS ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH WE ARE COMPELLED TO BELIEVE AND TO HOLD, PROMPTED BY DIVINE FAITH, AND WE DO BELIEVE THIS FIRMLY AND CONFESS IT SIMPLY, OUTSIDE OF WHICH THERE CAN BE NO SALVATION, OR REMISSION OF SINS….” Pope Boniface VIII

[metalman]

Is everyone afraid of this topic???

Why is it whenever any pope so much as cuts a fart the whole world is interested, the news networks report it, Americans rush to the TV to see whats going on. Especially in light of the fact that according to the papacy America is going to hell, and our notions of individual religious liberty and freedom of concience are absurd. Anyone have any ideas??

[Jaimecbr900]

Being raised a Catholic, I can tell you that sometimes it's difficult to weed thru some of the Catholic church's customs to reach to the real message. The majority of my family (on my mother's side) are still Catholic. I understand the basic message, but part of the reason for me joining another church that is not Catholic was because of their strict desire to circumvent the bible itself. In other words, a lot of the customs and beliefs have zero to do with the Bible and lots more to do with politics IMO.

As to the subject of this discussion:

I feel people will cling to what ever life raft they find when they are sinking, even one that is leaking.

People see what they want to see. I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with it, until it turns into OCD behavoir. It would be nice if someone were to say, "look, that looks like Jesus on the cross in that tree....how neat." and move on. Problem comes in when "the" church investigates and turns it into a media frenzy or a shrine is where I draw the line. Idiolotry is another form of blasphemy IMO.

Look at a rainbow and smile because you know what it means. Enjoy a day like yesterday, where it was easy to see what beauty really is and where it comes from. Be kind to someone in need when everyone else isn't. Those to me are more signs of God to me than a window with a little extra windex on it.

[metalman]

Being raised a Catholic, I can tell you that sometimes it's difficult to weed thru some of the Catholic church's customs to reach to the real message. The majority of my family (on my mother's side) are still Catholic. I understand the basic message, but part of the reason for me joining another church that is not Catholic was because of their strict desire to circumvent the bible itself. In other words, a lot of the customs and beliefs have zero to do with the Bible and lots more to do with politics IMO.



Bingo! And I would add traditions, which take precedence over ANYTHING Biblical. I too have beloved family members that are catholic. My comments are not intended to be condemning of the membership, I am fully aware of the fact that many catholics are fine people and very sincere, and perhaps live up to every bit of knowledge they have which is all anyone can do, and they are true Christians in that context. My comments are directed to anyone who is a reasonable thinking person, although controversial perhaps, the intention is to spark some thought & study. Most catholics have no real understanding of truly what their own church stands for or have a full understanding of its teachings. Lack of Biblical knowledge by the lay members has been promoted in the church for centuries. At one time even it was punishable for anyone to read/study/possess the Bible other then priests and "authorized" personnel. Currently if you read carefully the message is STILL that a lay person needs the guidance of the church/priests/nuns etc to “properly understand” the Scripture. Most so-called “protestants” have no idea what the catholic church stands for either or what the word protestant even means other then “not a catholic”. It’s this ignorance and lack of info that I really try to address.

Another factor that I feel is of great importance to me as an American is to let others know that the vatican is not just a church...its a sovereign nation, with its OWN agenda, and that agenda is largely anti-American in its principles. The church has a history of supporting civil unrest in America and in not so distant past spoke rather openly about their desire for America to change its thinking or disintegrate if necessary and also its (vatican) desire to penetrate our very government with ITS people and policy’s.
I don’t say this as a joke or some sort of conspiracy theorist but as a history buff who has spend hundreds of hours studying that subject.

[green91]

The fact that something so wierd and abstract can be derived from the bible is why people continue to do this kind of nonsense.

[babygurl]

Metalman and Jamie you both speak alot of truth...I wasnt really raised in church..But I do believe in God..

My step father is catholic, and I am recalling that he might have been the mentioned not sure If I miss understood. But somthing about praying through the saints to Jesus, and God? Is that in the catholic religion?

[metalman]

Metalman and Jamie you both speak alot of truth...I wasnt really raised in church..But I do believe in God..

My step father is catholic, and I am recalling that he might have been the mentioned not sure If I miss understood. But somthing about praying through the saints to Jesus, and God? Is that in the catholic religion?

Yes, thats basiclly it. Prayers for forgivness or other requests are directed through various "saints", deceased popes, Mary, etc. If you study catholic theology Mary is appointed the position of "co-redemptrix" for our sins and she is held forth as the "mother of God" as well, in addition to being the earthly mother of the human Christ. She is elevated to a position of being even perhaps more merciful then Christ. Pope john paul II was a huge "fan" of Mary and urged a greater degree of these notions. None of this has even ONE shred of credibility in terms of Biblical teaching however.

Here's some examples of prayers and attitudes to Mary and others....

"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Father, send now Your Spirit over the earth. Let the Holy Spirit live in the hearts of all nations that they may be preserved from degeneration, disaster and war. May The Lady of All Nations, who once was Mary, be our advocate. Amen."

Mary is refered to as... "THE LADY OF ALL NATIONS
CO-REDEMPTRIX, MEDIATRIX, AND ADVOCATE"

A suggested conclusion to the rosary is to pray the prayer, "Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life..."

"Dear St. Therese of Lisieux, of the Child Jesus, please teach us the way of spiritual childhood and help us to love God as you love Him."

From a catholic prayer card....

"Most Holy Mother, Holy Mother, Spirit of Light, Queen of heaven and earth, strength from above, Intercessor of love for Her children she calls to Jesus. She is light, she is intercessor."


As a historical note, Ishtar pagan godess of Babylon is also refered to as "queen of heaven" and "mother of god".

[metalman]

Twice during his remarks at john pauls funeral cardinal ratzinger (now the pope) said
Mary was Savior of the Roman people, or Mary was Savior of the people of Rome.
Here is one remark translated to english.... "The Blessed Virgin Mary, Queen of the Apostles and savior of the people of Rome, intercede to God for us so that the face of his blessed Son may be shown to our Pope and comfort the Church with the light of the resurrection."
The prayer that followed contained the following...
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for him
Holy Mary, Mother of the Church, pray for him
Holy Mary, Savior of the People of Rome, pray for him ...

[babygurl]

thanks