Stanley Tookie Williams Looses Last Appeal, Will Die In Just Hours

[Brett]

SACRAMENTO, California (CNN) -- The U.S. Supreme Court refused to stay the execution Monday of convicted killer Stanley Tookie Williams, clearing the way for him to die by injection shortly after midnight.

The high court was the former gang leader's last chance to avoid death by injection after California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger denied him clemency earlier Monday and a federal appeals court panel rejected a request to stay his execution.

Williams, who co-founded the Crips street gang in Los Angeles, is scheduled to die at 12:01 a.m. Tuesday (3:01 a.m. ET) at San Quentin State Prison, near San Francisco.

Civil rights leader Jesse Jackson, who met with Williams earlier in the day, criticized Schwarzenegger for deciding not to spare Williams.

Jackson said Williams, who was convicted of killing four people in two 1979 robberies in Los Angeles, had earned clemency and that Schwarzenegger's decision was about "making politicians look tough, but that does not make it right."

Lora Owens, the stepmother of one of the men Williams was convicted of killing, said she felt "justice is going to be done tonight."

"I had faith that when Governor Arnold looked at the facts of the case that he was going to decide not to do clemency," said Owens, whose 26-year-old stepson, Albert Owens, was shot to death in a February 1979 convenience store holdup in Los Angeles.

"I don't like it being said it's a political decision. It was an evidence decision."

A jury convicted Williams of killing Owns by shooting him twice in the back with a 12-gauge shotgun while the victim was face down on the floor.

The jury also convicted him of shooting and killing an immigrant couple and their 41-year-old daughter less than two weeks later while stealing less than $100 cash from their motel.

Both cases were handled in a single trial. Williams was sentenced to death in 1981.

Schwarzenegger announced his decision not to commute Williams' sentence to life in prison without parole shortly after a three-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, based in San Francisco, rejected an affidavit from the convict's lawyers that suggested someone framed him.

California's Supreme Court rejected an emergency request to stay the execution on Sunday.

In their appeal to the 9th Circuit, his attorneys pinned their hopes on the declaration of a new witness -- Gordon Bradbury von Ellerman -- a jail trusty detained with Williams in the Los Angeles County Jail from 1979 to 1980.

In the affidavit, von Ellerman said he was the cellmate of another trusty, identified as George "Roger" Oglesby.

Von Ellerman said Los Angeles Sheriff's Department personnel provided Oglesby with documents to aid him in testifying against Williams in return for reduced or dropped charges.

"I was personally aware that Los Angeles Sheriff's Department personnel would often provide information to these inmates so that they could help frame defendants for crimes," he said in the statement.

A statement from Schwarzenegger read: "The possible irregularities in Williams' trial have been thoroughly and carefully reviewed by the courts, and there is no reason to disturb the judicial decisions that uphold the jury's decisions that he is guilty of these four murders and should pay with his life."

Williams, who would be 52 on December 29, spent part of Monday with his attorneys and family members at San Quentin.

As Williams was being moved to a holding cell next to the death chamber Monday evening, his lead attorney, John Harris, said the convict was "at peace."

But his lawyers have renewed their request for clemency to Schwarzenegger, citing the statements of three new witnesses Harris said could provide exculpatory evidence.

"He's at peace, but we're fighting, and he knows it," Harris said.

A crowd of protesters had begun to gather outside the gates of San Quentin early Monday evening. One demonstrator carried a sign that read, "Don't kill in my name."

While in prison, Williams became an anti-gang crusader, but he has consistently refused to take part in a debriefing with authorities to provide them potentially valuable information about the Crips gangs, said lead prosecutor John Monaghan.

While maintaining his innocence in the four murders, Williams has denounced gang violence and written children's books with an anti-gang message, donating the proceeds to anti-gang community groups. He said he was trying to prevent young people from making the choices he did.

Celebrities, teachers and anti-death penalty advocates have spoken on Williams' behalf, but Schwarzenegger questioned the sincerity of Williams' conversion to nonviolence.

"Stanley Williams insists he is innocent, and that he will not and should not apologize or otherwise atone for the murders of the four victims in this case," the governor wrote.

"Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings, there can be no redemption."

[TIGERJC]

he did kill four ppl, but might has saved a dozen or so lives. i really cant decide if he should die or live.

[The Ren]

He killed 4 people.. period.. I dont care what someone does while they are in jail.. He is a murderer.. and therefor he should have the same fate...

[Hulud]

is he dead yet?

[The Ren]

No he is schedualed to die at 3:01 Est

[Hulud]

o ok

[thinkfast®]

cmon H, you should know this. he's in San Quentin maaaaan!

[Hulud]

i wasnt thinkin time change lol

[Brett]

Its a done deal

[MachNU]

I agree with this, he didnt deserve it. I mean if it takes you to kill 4 people in COLD blood, to then go to prison for the rest of your life, to realize what you did was wrong doesnt mean you deserve to put the past behind you like that!

[B16a2 Civic]

hmmm, im torn on this one.

[Brett]

Not me, He helped to start one of the most violent street gangs in the country which on top of his 4 murders he did himself ( That he was caught doing atleast ) this gang/ and other gangs over the years has been liable for MANY more. He got what was right.

[mocha latte cupcake]

agree with the nawz'd one ^^

[A.P. Photography]

I agree with this, he didnt deserve it. I mean if it takes you to kill 4 people in COLD blood, to then go to prison for the rest of your life, to realize what you did was wrong doesnt mean you deserve to put the past behind you like that!
Yeah it is easy to take that stance but if it had been a family member he killed you would change your tone real quick. It's simple. He breaks into your home and kills your mother and father execution style but he should not pay for what he did. You will be happy just to put him in jail so he can think about what he did. Right?

I agree with Brett on this one also.

[The Ren]

Because of what this man started.. those four people are not the only ones who suffered... Countless people around the world have suffered from the gang he started.. It was right..He deserved it..

[bicsintegra]

eye for an eye sorry to see a man loose his life but the four people he killed suffered the same fate.

[SilverStoneZ]

all I have to say at this point is i fell for his family
and a bit of info about the crips they were originaly started to protect to members of the comunity agenst the many gangs fearing people out of property. Only later to have them turn into what they were out to distroy.
i would have let him rot in a cell by him self only to see the light of day 1 time a week and a guard that watches his cell in a room all by it self.

if the murders we more along the lines of he was cutting there heads off or takeing fingers or ears for trophies than yeah DEAth

[Vteckidd]

Because of what this man started.. those four people are not the only ones who suffered... Countless people around the world have suffered from the gang he started.. It was right..He deserved it..
+1 vote.

hes a murderer, Time does NOT EXCUSE his sins/crimes/etc. While i applaud him for his anti gang feelings toward his end, it does not excuse brutally killing 4 people (that we know of).

He has NEVER admitted and said he was sorry for the 4 murders.
He has refused to cooperate with authorities on catching and policing the Crips and other gangs in California

Sounds like he was just trying to save his own ass in the end.

and someone tell Jesse Jackson to SHUT THE FUCK UP. If this guy had been WHITE we never would have heard from Jesse, so for him to say "this is all political its wrong", everything he does is RACIST or POLITICAL. i reallu hope someone beats the living shit out of him soon.

[The Golden Child]

i agree he deserved what he did and he did his time and such.
id atleast give him life in the bing thats almost like death.

[MachNU]

I agree with this, he didnt deserve it. I mean if it takes you to kill 4 people in COLD blood, to then go to prison for the rest of your life, to realize what you did was wrong doesnt mean you deserve to put the past behind you like that!

Crap let me rephrase what i said....

I agree that he didnt get the clemency, he didnt deserve it. I mean if it took teh man to kill 4 innocent people in cold blood, then go to join for life, with the death penalty to relieaze what he did was wrong, is jsut stupid. No matter how many people he saved, he only saved hte people from what HE started.

[SilverStoneZ]

[QUOTE=vteckiddHe has NEVER admitted and said he was sorry for the 4 murders.
He has refused to cooperate with authorities on catching and policing the Crips and other gangs in California

[/QUOTE]


would you turn in your firends?

[SilverStoneZ]

maybe the reasion he never admitted to the murders is because he truely is innoscent now i dont know if he did or not lust playing the devils avodicate

[Tracy]

There is goin to be a riot

[Vteckidd]

would you turn in your firends?
If he was expecting clemency and TRULY beleived he was in the wrong, hell yes. Remember , the crips NOWADAYS arent the same crips he was apart of 30 years ago. YOu honestly think he knows or has anything to do with the crips today?

He started a GANG that has been one of the most RUTHLESS and MURDEROUS gangs in history of the USA. He killed 4 people, he deserved to die

[Hulud]

[QUOTE=vteckiddSounds like he was just trying to save his own ass in the end.

and someone tell Jesse Jackson to SHUT THE FUCK UP. If this guy had been WHITE we never would have heard from Jesse, so for him to say "this is all political its wrong", everything he does is RACIST or POLITICAL. i reallu hope someone beats the living shit out of him soon.[/QUOTE]
werd
i believe he was just trying to save his ass but we will never know
and i fucking hate jesse jackson everything to him is racial

[SilverStoneZ]

+1 vote.

hes a murderer, Time does NOT EXCUSE his sins/crimes/etc. While i applaud him for his anti gang feelings toward his end, it does not excuse brutally killing 4 people (that we know of).

He has NEVER admitted and said he was sorry for the 4 murders.
He has refused to cooperate with authorities on catching and policing the Crips and other gangs in California

Sounds like he was just trying to save his own ass in the end.

and someone tell Jesse Jackson to SHUT THE FUCK UP. If this guy had been WHITE we never would have heard from Jesse, so for him to say "this is all political its wrong", everything he does is RACIST or POLITICAL. i reallu hope someone beats the living shit out of him soon.


If he was expecting clemency and TRULY beleived he was in the wrong, hell yes. Remember , the crips NOWADAYS arent the same crips he was apart of 30 years ago. YOu honestly think he knows or has anything to do with the crips today?

He started a GANG that has been one of the most RUTHLESS and MURDEROUS gangs in history of the USA. He killed 4 people, he deserved to die

i didnt say he did but you look like you just changed something you said .and is it his fault that the gang he co-founded turned into something he did not originaly want it to? and not that im agenst puting someone to death look at the good he did do while sitting in jail. I would likt to think that 20 years of service to help undo what the crips have become whould be enough to condem him for life.

and my question was not would he turn in his friends it was would you turn in yours. also try to put yourself in a situation like his sitting on death row and surely haveing a gang rdy to kill you if you do turn in your firends.

[wantboost]

i do not believe in the death penalty in most cases for the fact that our justice system is not perfect. however they had so much evidence and it does not matter how many anti-gang books you write he still didnt show any remorse (not that it would bring the victims back to life)

[NEONRACER]

Read the transcripts from the trial, he talked about how one of the victims sounded after he shot him and laughed for 6 minutes about it. He was a burden on the tax payers of California for too long. If you are convicted of murder and are sentenced to death you should be put to death within a year, fuck wasting tax payer's money for 20+ years only to have the same outcome happen that we knew would happen 20 years ago. Our judicial system is flawed but we are too easy on criminals. Child molestor's and rapists should die. You can't cure a child molestor, they are the sickest form of life and should be killed after convicted. Tookie killed 4 people he paid for his crimes with his life and that is that. It was the right thing to do and the death penalty isn't used enough in this country.

[SilverStoneZ]

Read the transcripts from the trial, he talked about how one of the victims sounded after he shot him and laughed for 6 minutes about it. He was a burden on the tax payers of California for too long. If you are convicted of murder and are sentenced to death you should be put to death within a year, fuck wasting tax payer's money for 20+ years only to have the same outcome happen that we knew would happen 20 years ago. Our judicial system is flawed but we are too easy on criminals. Child molestor's and rapists should die. You can't cure a child molestor, they are the sickest form of life and should be killed after convicted. Tookie killed 4 people he paid for his crimes with his life and that is that. It was the right thing to do and the death penalty isn't used enough in this country.

very nicely put i liked all but the very last line but again Very nicely put

[quickdodge®]

But some of you guys should see what he has done in his time behind bars. Should he have ever been set free? No. But should have had a chance to try and change more lives? Yes. You have all these people that write books on gang life. Who better to write and teach about it than a gang founder? I know it probably sounds like I'm taking sides because he founded the gang that I was involved with for over 15 years, but I would take that stance for most people. I believe in an eye for an eye, but moreso when the convicted acts like he could give a shit. Later, QD.

[quickdodge®]

While i applaud him for his anti gang feelings toward his end,

It wasn't towards the end. He has been that way for a loong time. Later, QD.

[quickdodge®]

and a bit of info about the crips they were originaly started to protect to members of the comunity agenst the many gangs fearing people out of property. Only later to have them turn into what they were out to distroy.


That's not true. The Crips started out as the Baby Avenues and they were trying to be a subset of the Black Panthers(LA) and help with minor crimes for them. They were actually with Piru until a beef with one turned the Prius away from them and joining a collective set of rival gangs and called themselves Bloods. This happened around 1972. The Crips started out trying to gain more territory, not just protecting the ones they already had. Later, QD.

[NEONRACER]

Here is the cold hard truth about gangs. You WILL NOT be able to talk gangs away. You will not be able to council them away. You will not be able to write a book and magically make then vanish. Gangs will be around forever, they have been around forever in one fashion or another. Unfortuantely it is part of human nature, an ugly part but a part. Tookie should of died years ago instead of being a burden to the law abidding citizens of California. We are to easy on criminals, hell they have freedoms and rights still, even after they commit crimes like murder, rape and child molestation. I feel no remorse for him and I will never feel remorse for anyone who commits certain criminal acts. This country is full of pussy ass people who don't want to see a killer die, but it was ok for his victims to die and for him to "change" his life around in prison. Of course he changed his life aorund he was in prison and he had nothing better to do. Tookie was also a king in prison I can assure of that. Someone with his street credibility lived a very good life in prison, as far as prison life goes. He knew the consequences of his actions before he committed them, he chose to take a chance and live that life and now look where he is.

[quickdodge®]

but it was ok for his victims to die and for him to "change" his life around in prison.

No. It isn't ok. But there is nothing wrong with trying to make better what you did wrong. If you want to. If you can keep trying to inspire others to NOT follow the lifestyle you were in, then go for it. If the others don't listen to him, it isn't his fault. He led a lot of people to do violent shit. Why not try to lead them back out?


Of course he changed his life aorund he was in prison and he had nothing better to do.

That's not necessarily true. he could have just ran shit and been the same way on the inside, too. He didn't have to put down the flag and write children's books and books to try and help people. Obviously these books were good or he wouldn't have gotten 5 nominations for the Nobel prize. he could have been the same Tookie that ran the streets in prison.


Tookie was also a king in prison I can assure of that.

At first...yes he was. After a minute, though, he stayed away from that shit. He did have a hard time when he renounced gangs from the folks that he inspired to get into the gang in the first place. Kind of like GW sending troops to war and then running away saying the war is wrong.


He knew the consequences of his actions before he committed them, he chose to take a chance and live that life and now look where he is.

Agreed. Later, QD.

[B16a2 Civic]

the conclusion i came to:
The man will do more help to society alive, then dead
he was makin changes, not only to himself but to others behind bars
okay, 4 families will feel comfort that one man is dead, Tookie's death will take a toll on how many people? i can tell you, alot more then 4 famalies.
and the " eye for an eye" thing...if that was the case, the whole world will go blind.

[Julio]

My opinion on this is Blah. he shouldve been kept alive. Ohwell.

[MachNU]

Yeah, i agree with both neon and ghost. But you have to think of it this way, you could have 250 million people sign a petition saying to pardon him, but it would only take the 20-30 members of the victims familys to out weigh those 250 million votes. No matter what someone says the victims familys always have the most say. And i go back to saying if it took him killing 4 people in cold blood to realize what he started was wrong, then he deserved to die!

[malfeas99]

I see some of you are living under the myth that Tookie Williams was a reformed, angelic prisoner for decades. Luckily, Boortz has all sorts of interesting snippets on his webpage from time to time:

In 1981, Williams was caught beating up an other inmate with his fists, and ignored orders to stop. In 1982, Williams refused to an order to line up...and told a guard "you'll get yours boy, I can do anything now because I know what the gunmen will do...one of these days I'll trick you boy." Twice that same year, Tookie attacked guards with chemical substances. In 1984, Tookie was back to beating up another inmate...and didn't stop until a guard fired a warning shot. Also in 1984, Williams was caught making out with a female visitor. He told the guard then "you are looking around too much and that's not your job. I have dusted many officers on the street, one more would not make any difference." Sounds reformed to me. But there's more...1986...he beat up another inmate. 1988..he was stabbed in retaliation for a stabbing he ordered of another inmate. 1991...Tookie was again caught beating up another inmate. Same thing again in 1993.

[quickdodge®]

^^^ Not I. I never said anything about him being a saint from day 1 behind bars. What I did say was that he didn't wait until his last days to "turn things around." He's in jail.....one of the roughest around. Of course he'll be in fights. Later, QD.

[malfeas99]

^^^ Not I. I never said anything about him being a saint from day 1 behind bars. What I did say was that he didn't wait until his last days to "turn things around." He's in jail.....one of the roughest around. Of course he'll be in fights. Later, QD.

Do 'fights' include threatening and assaulting guards?

[wantboost]

Do 'fights' include threatening and assaulting guards?
there is no proof that i know of. not that he didnt but do you believe everything a guard/cop says lol.

[JITB]

i dont know why eveyrone gets mad at jesse jackson.. when hes been the word of african americcans for alooooong time. its not like he goes around finding things to defend...

[Elrichthain]

I see some of you are living under the myth that Tookie Williams was a reformed, angelic prisoner for decades. Luckily, Boortz has all sorts of interesting snippets on his webpage from time to time:

In 1981, Williams was caught beating up an other inmate with his fists, and ignored orders to stop. In 1982, Williams refused to an order to line up...and told a guard "you'll get yours boy, I can do anything now because I know what the gunmen will do...one of these days I'll trick you boy." Twice that same year, Tookie attacked guards with chemical substances. In 1984, Tookie was back to beating up another inmate...and didn't stop until a guard fired a warning shot. Also in 1984, Williams was caught making out with a female visitor. He told the guard then "you are looking around too much and that's not your job. I have dusted many officers on the street, one more would not make any difference." Sounds reformed to me. But there's more...1986...he beat up another inmate. 1988..he was stabbed in retaliation for a stabbing he ordered of another inmate. 1991...Tookie was again caught beating up another inmate. Same thing again in 1993.

I really don't have much of an opinion on this, but just to counter this: He was sentenced to death in 1981, "reformed" in 1993. Like quickdodge states, he was in a rough place. Shit's gonna happen, but notice these dates? Why is it so difficult to believe that people can be reformed?

[NEONRACER]

The problem with Jesse Jackson is he will not speak out unless there is something in it for him. He gets paid to make appearances and fight on someone's behalf. If there is enough media coverage he will show up so he can get his face on the news and in the paper. The great Rev. Jesse Jackson has how many children in sin now? He is not in it for the people he is in it for himself. Sure it may benefit other people but if he has nothing to gain by it then he won't fight for it. There have been and there are alot of other african americans who have and who are speaking out on others behalf and they do not get the same recognition. I guess Jesse has promoter's just like boxer's do. I wonder if Don King has promoted any of his marches.

[JITB]

Jesse jackson is one of the few along with him and mr. faraqon (sp) and al shaprton. They speak people listen thats why they get all the coverage. Whats int it for jesse jackson to go and talk with tookie?

[metalman]

Jesse jackson is one of the few along with him and mr. faraqon (sp) and al shaprton. They speak people listen thats why they get all the coverage. Whats int it for jesse jackson to go and talk with tookie?

Publicity! Jesse loves it. If a white dude farts near a black citizen Jesse is there with the media. If there is proven to be no fart Jesse will make up some rhyming mumbo jumbo for the camera. He's a joke, a wannbe star, and by constantly having press confrences he has succeeded to some degree. Even my black friends agree.

Tookie got more humane treatment then his victims. I am not a huge fan of the death penalty but he seemed quite deserving.

[malfeas99]

I really don't have much of an opinion on this, but just to counter this: He was sentenced to death in 1981, "reformed" in 1993. Like quickdodge states, he was in a rough place. Shit's gonna happen, but notice these dates? Why is it so difficult to believe that people can be reformed?

So the entire judicial system is governed by how people feel between the beginning and end of their sentencing?

Sure, for some sentences there's possibility for parole, but that's not for SERIAL MURDERERS.

Tookie got the death sentence. It took decades to carry it out. If he'd have been executed in 1983, like I think he should have been, we wouldn't be having this assinine 'rehabilitation' argument. Have you had a look at any research exploring the 'rehabilitation' rates of serial killers? It's laughably low. Beyond that, we live (ostensibly) in a society where we are ruled by law, not ruled by whatever people feel ought to happen at a particular point in time. The sentence was death, and barring evidence proving his innocence, there was no reason for clemency.

The fact that he's been nominated for a Nobel prize and that Jessie Jackson and Louis Farakkhan are speaking up for him only solidifies my resolve in the matter, frankly.

[NEONRACER]

Exactly my point if Jesse won't get exposure he won't show up. He is addicted to media exposure. People don't even listen to him anymore, when he shows up it's a media circus and a carnival. He is not serving the African American community, he is not serving god he serving himself and his hunger for media exposure. It's seems like it's a drug for him to be honest, he gets off on being interviewed and trying to look like a hero. That is only my opinion on this matter.

[{X}Echo419]

They should bring back the electric chair for guys like him. fry his azz! we're all better without people like that in this world.

[malfeas99]

Exactly my point if Jesse won't get exposure he won't show up. He is addicted to media exposure. People don't even listen to him anymore, when he shows up it's a media circus and a carnival. He is not serving the African American community, he is not serving god he serving himself and his hunger for media exposure. It's seems like it's a drug for him to be honest, he gets off on being interviewed and trying to look like a hero. That is only my opinion an this matter.

Don't forget his hunger for extortion money from his corporate shakedowns. That's important also.

[metalman]

Exactly my point if Jesse won't get exposure he won't show up. He is addicted to media exposure. People don't even listen to him anymore, when he shows up it's a media circus and a carnival. He is not serving the African American community, he is not serving god he serving himself and his hunger for media exposure. It's seems like it's a drug for him to be honest, he gets off on being interviewed and trying to look like a hero. That is only my opinion an this matter.

No that is my general opinion as well. :goodjob:

[JITB]

Exactly my point if Jesse won't get exposure he won't show up. He is addicted to media exposure. People don't even listen to him anymore, when he shows up it's a media circus and a carnival. He is not serving the African American community, he is not serving god he serving himself and his hunger for media exposure. It's seems like it's a drug for him to be honest, he gets off on being interviewed and trying to look like a hero. That is only my opinion on this matter.


lol wow since when does JESSE JEACKSON Need exposure. Famous publc speakers get payed, bill clinton gets payed, miniser faroqon gets payed, along with al sharpton, and many political figures, thats what jesse jackson Does thats his job.. hes the voice for people who want their problem aired. The craziest thing is you say that he doesnt get any attention, but as soon as he speaks every gets all angry.. and does waht..... LISTEN, he gets payed to make people listen to problems. Whats the point of having a person like that if noone listens. Wannabe star? hahah plz get out of here, u act like he just popped up ou of noowhere.. have u ever cracked a history book mr malfeas?

Noone made this a race issue... its funny becasue everytime jesse jackson gets involved soemoen always thinks its a race issue. Has the word white - black came out of his mouth? Thats the most funniest part. He serves people that ask for his help

[malfeas99]

lol wow since when does JESSE JEACKSON Need exposure. Famous publc speakers get payed, bill clinton gets payed, miniser faroqon gets payed, along with al sharpton, and many political figures, thats what jesse jackson Does thats his job.. hes the voice for people who want their problem aired. The craziest thing is you say that he doesnt get any attention, but as soon as he speaks every gets all angry.. and does waht..... LISTEN, he gets payed to make people listen to problems. Whats the point of having a person like that if noone listens. Wannabe star? hahah plz get out of here, u act like he just popped up ou of noowhere.. have u ever cracked a history book mr malfeas?

Noone made this a race issue... its funny becasue everytime jesse jackson gets involved soemoen always thinks its a race issue. Has the word white - black came out of his mouth? Thats the most funniest part. He serves people that ask for his help


I am largely unable to respond to this statement because it is borderline incomprehensible.

I will say, from what I understand of the comment directed at me, that yes, I have 'cracked a history book', and yes, I know far more about Jesse Jackson, and I daresay, EVERYTHING, than you.

Please DIAF and save us all the headache of attempting to read your incoherent babble.

[JITB]

My response to you
lol its ok.. if u dont have anythign worthwhile to the "discussion" than just retort to talking down and acting important.

My argument/debate
u said JJ (yes i call him JJ cuz hes my homie!) is a wannabe star?

if u did crack a history book you would know who he is and what he has done, and what he does.

And he will never be a "star" hes a public figure.

So when he speaks people listen, thats why people ask him for help in situations..


My closing comeback and lasting attack...
DIAF? come on who says that anymore... this aint NASIOC.. u can put you guard down.



hopefully that wasnt too difficult for u to read...i spaced it out, and labeled the statements accordingly for you this time... soo u can take you time and understand

[{X}Echo419]

Consider the following hypothetical. David Duke, former imperial wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, murders, in cold blood, four innocent blacks. But, wait. Duke later renounces the Klan and pens children's books urging white kids to reject racism. But he refuses to accept responsibility for the murder of the four innocent blacks, claiming that a racist jury convicted him for his reputation, not for the murders. Imagine Snoop Dogg, Jamie Foxx, Ed Asner or the NAACP organizing a campaign to spare the "redeemed" Duke's life. I doubt it!
National Assoiation for the Advancement of Colored People(NAACP) what am I? Clear?

[malfeas99]

My response to you
lol its ok.. if u dont have anythign worthwhile to the "discussion" than just retort to talking down and acting important.

My argument/debate
u said JJ (yes i call him JJ cuz hes my homie!) is a wannabe star?

if u did crack a history book you would know who he is and what he has done, and what he does.

And he will never be a "star" hes a public figure.

So when he speaks people listen, thats why people ask him for help in situations..


My closing comeback and lasting attack...
DIAF? come on who says that anymore... this aint NASIOC.. u can put you guard down.



hopefully that wasnt too difficult for u to read...i spaced it out, and labeled the statements accordingly for you this time... soo u can take you time and understand


That's a little better. If you'd done any actual research on Jesse Jackson, you'd understand that he is, in essence, a race pimp. Everything is race to Mr. Jackson. This is the guy that wiped MLK's blood on his shirt and then lied about him 'dying in his arms' afterwards. This is the guy that shakes down corporations with threats of lawsuits, and when money is forked over to various 'funds' that he controls, he runs away, whether or not anything has been accomplished. This is the guy that because he's not getting media attention, offers to 'negotiate' for the release of hostages in Iraq. Assholes like this are not concerned with racial equality or justice, because if racial equality or justice ever exists in their lifetimes, they will CEASE BEING USEFUL. Their job is to CAUSE racial discord and benefit from it. People like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Louis Farrakahn all fit into this category.

I'm done with you. Since 'JJ' as you put it is your 'homie', I doubt anything I say is going to make a dent in your idiocy. You can do your own homework about this, I have better things to do. Go here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895261650/qid=1134757875/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-2037763-6459036?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

There's a book about the other side.. since it's obvious you've never so much as dipped a toe into any negative information regarding your 'homie'.

[thinkfast®]

ooooooooooh fight!

[JITB]

That's a little better. If you'd done any actual research on Jesse Jackson, you'd understand that he is, in essence, a race pimp. Everything is race to Mr. Jackson. This is the guy that wiped MLK's blood on his shirt and then lied about him 'dying in his arms' afterwards. This is the guy that shakes down corporations with threats of lawsuits, and when money is forked over to various 'funds' that he controls, he runs away, whether or not anything has been accomplished. This is the guy that because he's not getting media attention, offers to 'negotiate' for the release of hostages in Iraq. Assholes like this are not concerned with racial equality or justice, because if racial equality or justice ever exists in their lifetimes, they will CEASE BEING USEFUL. Their job is to CAUSE racial discord and benefit from it. People like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Louis Farrakahn all fit into this category.

I'm done with you. Since 'JJ' as you put it is your 'homie', I doubt anything I say is going to make a dent in your idiocy. You can do your own homework about this, I have better things to do. Go here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895261650/qid=1134757875/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-2037763-6459036?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

There's a book about the other side.. since it's obvious you've never so much as dipped a toe into any negative information regarding your 'homie'.


if u base you thoughts on someone on a book, someoen writes abot them to expose them. Than you arent worth discussing with anymore. Its ilke getting your facts about the president and our government from watching fahrenheit 911. It jsut seems like every black political figure is always questioned about there purposes, and always gets blamed for bringing up race. when it never uttered out his mouth. SOo why bring it up if that wasnt an issue in the
beginning?

"Their job is to CAUSE racial discord and benefit from it. People like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Louis Farrakahn all fit into this category. "

soo your saying that they just get payed to cause racial discord amongst us.. all the time? Racial discord is always there regardless if they speak abou it or not. I honestly never looked at the tookie situation as a race issue, and i really ahvent heard much talk about it being a white - black thing. Its mostly been a political thing for arnold, word around was that this decision was gonna make or break his political career.

[malfeas99]

if u base you thoughts on someone on a book, someoen writes abot them to expose them. Than you arent worth discussing with anymore. Its ilke getting your facts about the president and our government from watching fahrenheit 911. It jsut seems like every black political figure is always questioned about there purposes, and always gets blamed for bringing up race. when it never uttered out his mouth. SOo why bring it up if that wasnt an issue in the
beginning?

"Their job is to CAUSE racial discord and benefit from it. People like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Louis Farrakahn all fit into this category. "

soo your saying that they just get payed to cause racial discord amongst us.. all the time? Racial discord is always there regardless if they speak abou it or not. I honestly never looked at the tookie situation as a race issue, and i really ahvent heard much talk about it being a white - black thing. Its mostly been a political thing for arnold, word around was that this decision was gonna make or break his political career.


Wrong. I base my thoughts on a lot of different sources of information. The reason I sent you there was not necessarily to get information about the book, but to read the reviews and comments, which might open your eyes a little bit. The man is a self-serving political hack, and he's a race pimp.

You are right, the Tookie situation isn't a race issue. But Jesse Jackson has made it a race issue. That in and of itself should prove my point.

[JITB]

how did jesse make it a race issue?

[Flamed03]

how did jesse make it a race issue?


by getting involved. if it was a white guy, he would have put the needles in himself. everything the man does is racialy and politicaly motivated. and everything to him, if it involves a black person, is racial.

[Elrichthain]

Malfeas, I happen to agree with you about "JJ", but my post was in response to the post explaining all the shit the man did in prison. I will reiterate that I don't have much of an opinion on this particular issue, because it doesn't "hit me deep" or anything, and that I DO believe in Capital Punishment, on the whole. however, the man claimed to rehabilitate, and the record shows; he went in a murderer and deservedly was charged with the death penalty, and acted like a murderer, but he DID rehabilitate, and that is my point. If somebody in this country could get charged with manslaughter and jail time with possibility of parole, based on if they "get better", then the death penalty should have a form of "parole", which could be NOT death, just life, if they "get better." The point behind the establishment is not JUST for keeping bad guys off the streets, but to rehabilitate them into functional citizens, and my "fight" is if he could serve as a functional citizen behind bars, and do what he can to keep kids from joining gangs, then he is doing better that way than in death, where there is a possibility of an outlash that will have an adverse effect. He deserved his sentence, as does (I believe) most people IN jail, but he responded to jail the "correct" way and found a sense of peace, and could possibly have been useful alive. Just my opinion, and I would feel the same if it was a KKK member, if he was truly rehabilitated.

[JITB]

by getting involved. if it was a white guy, he would have put the needles in himself. everything the man does is racialy and politicaly motivated. and everything to him, if it involves a black person, is racial.



lol my point proven... its like you all are making it a race issue. All the man did and does is speak out for african americans and all of a sudden hes a racists...lol. But a guy speaks on killing off all black babies to reduce crime rate and its doesnt really mean anything. Funny how that all works. when has he ever spoken down on any other race, never... soo why is he blamed for making everythign racial. and "if he was a white guy" isnt valid, plenty of white guys have had clemency alnog with blacks. soo "if" isnt really a good example. It was a political issue and race wasnt really a part in this whole situation.. Soo again i ask how was tihs ever a racial issu?

[quickdodge®]

Tookie got the death sentence. It took decades to carry it out. If he'd have been executed in 1983, like I think he should have been, we wouldn't be having this assinine 'rehabilitation' argument.

That, I can agree with you on. I don't see the need to carry on, for years and years, a death penalty sentence. Get it over with is what I feel. It takes what, a few minutes tops, to put a man down? Later, QD.

[wantboost]

[QUOTE=JITB]lol my point proven... its like you all are making it a race issue. All the man did and does is speak out for african americans and all of a sudden hes a racists...lol. But a guy speaks on killing off all black babies to reduce crime rate and its doesnt really mean anything. /QUOTE] i disagree with you on jesse speaking out FOR african americans. the majority of the events he shows up for already have media attn. thus the reason he is there. as for the second part Bill Bennet (i believe thats who it was) should have never said that even in hypothetical terms it doesnt mater what what race you fill in the blank with. i just do not see the conection between the 2

[malfeas99]

Funny how that all works. when has he ever spoken down on any other race, never...

Once again, you show how little you actually know about the man you idolize.

Jesse Jackson was relegated to a non-entity in the presidential election in 1984 in part because he was overheard in public calling Brooklyn 'Heebietown'. And that's what what he slipped up with and let people hear in public. When are you going to get it through your head?

I'm fairly certain that you never actually looked at the context of the 'kill black babies to reduce crime rate' statement. Let me link the story from a VERY left leaning website, dailykos:

Addressing a caller's suggestion that the "lost revenue from the people who have been aborted in the last 30 years" would be enough to preserve Social Security's solvency, radio host and former Reagan administration Secretary of Education Bill Bennett dismissed such "far-reaching, extensive extrapolations" by declaring that if "you wanted to reduce crime ... if that were your sole purpose, you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down." Bennett conceded that aborting all African-American babies "would be an impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible thing to do," then added again, "but the crime rate would go down."

So. I don't think he was a proponent of aborting any black babies. That doesn't mean what what he said wasn't statistically true, because it is. Does truth make you racist?

[JITB]

ive honestly never heard the word heebie ever..

[green91]

malfeas im with you completely on this one. i believe that jessie jackson uses the media to soley create racial unrest. its people who act in his manner that cause the racial divide

[malfeas99]

ive honestly never heard the word heebie ever..

Heeb or heebie is a derogatory slur used for Jews, usually orthodox or hasidic Jews.

You've never heard it? I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Go email your pal 'JJ', he obviously is very familiar with it.

Seriously, that's just the tip of the iceberg.

[JITB]

see there u go taking shots, i just said i never heard that word before.

[malfeas99]

see there u go taking shots, i just said i never heard that word before.

I took a shot because if you knew 'JJ' well enough to use his initials and call him your homie, you WOULD have heard that word before.

Want to keep having a pissing contest about who knows more about the 'Reverend' Jesse Jackson?

I'm not sure you'd enjoy it at all.

[JITB]

man that was a joke, get over it really. i didnt want to type his whole name out so i typed JJ. this was never a pissing contest, it was a simple discussion. somewhere int he line u turned it into soemthing other than that about who knows more. I never said i knew more.. i just stated how i feel on the subject. I never argue with he facts i argue with crazy assumptions that are being made on the whole tookie situation. Thats why i never discredited the whole "heebietown" incedent i never heard about that before. and ive never heard that word. And i dotn idolize the guy, im not even into politics.. i only watch it when something happens. I didnt agree with you all saying that this whole tookie situation was racial since jesse got involved. I think i put my foot in my mouth when i said he never made anything into a racial thing. but clearly, this thread being about the tookie situation.. I will stand by it and say it was never a racial situation even after JJ's envolvement.

[malfeas99]

man that was a joke, get over it really. i didnt want to type his whole name out so i typed JJ. this was never a pissing contest, it was a simple discussion. somewhere int he line u turned it into soemthing other than that about who knows more. I never said i knew more.. i just stated how i feel on the subject. I never argue with he facts i argue with crazy assumptions that are being made on the whole tookie situation. Thats why i never discredited the whole "heebietown" incedent i never heard about that before. and ive never heard that word. And i dotn idolize the guy, im not even into politics.. i only watch it when something happens. I didnt agree with you all saying that this whole tookie situation was racial since jesse got involved. I think i put my foot in my mouth when i said he never made anything into a racial thing. but clearly, this thread being about the tookie situation.. I will stand by it and say it was never a racial situation even after JJ's envolvement.

Okay, fair enough, if you don't think it's a racial situation, especially after Jesse Jackson's involvement, ask yourself this and answer HONESTLY: Would he be there if Tookie was any other color?

[JITB]

Probrably not , because jesse jackson has always been for blacks. Soo why is it a suprise that hes helps blacks. just because he helps 1 race out alot, doesnt mean he hates the others. its not like jesse jackson and the NAACP popped up one day and said hmm lets stick up for blacks and only blacks because everyoen else is bad. WE all know why it was formed to keep everythign fair fo all colors. So why is it soo bad that jesse jackson helps blacks most of the time i mean he is black. If tookie was white, some say he woudl have lived, if tookie was mexican soem say tookie would have died, if he was asian some say tookie would have died.

[malfeas99]

Probrably not , because jesse jackson has always been for blacks. Soo why is it a suprise that hes helps blacks. just because he helps 1 race out alot, doesnt mean he hates the others. its not like jesse jackson and the NAACP popped up one day and said hmm lets stick up for blacks and only blacks because everyoen else is bad. WE all know why it was formed to keep everythign fair fo all colors. So why is it soo bad that jesse jackson helps blacks most of the time i mean he is black. If tookie was white, some say he woudl have lived, if tookie was mexican soem say tookie would have died, if he was asian some say tookie would have died.

Most of your post is painfully naive, but the root of it is this: Because Jesse Jackson almost always 'only' helps blacks, especially in situations like this, there are almost always racial overtones that come along with his involvement, even if there's not a direct racially charged statement that comes out of his mouth (which is a HUGE rarity, I assure you).

As for the rest of what you said.. I'm sorry you feel that way. Most black folks nowadays don't even think Jesse Jackson speaks for them. He is a corrupt politician and charlatan with the BEST of them, and he does it via race warfare. You really think Jesse Jackson wants true racial equality and no racial tension? If there's true racial equality, he becomes a non-entity.. almost entirely useless. So, as is the case with most politicians, he exists to further exacerbate the problems he claims to champion against, but in a way that he can steer to his own ends, increasing the power he has and the money he can make.

[JITB]

The whole situation never crossed my mind as being racial... until i read this thread.. thats why i posted.

[malfeas99]

The whole situation never crossed my mind as being racial... until i read this thread.. thats why i posted.

I agree that it's not racial.

My point was that there are people that will try to make it racial to further their own agendas.

[JITB]

oh yea thats for sure.. theres fools out there..

see in the end we agree... :)

[Dr.G35]

I can't say what someone else hasn't already said but, tookie did deserve to die whether or not he has "helped" others with their gang related issues. It was never about racism at any point. I do believe in my own opinion that Jesse Jackson tends help the african americans and others more to his own benefit rather than the people his is trying to help. I belive he has always been a crooked politician ever since his name has been on the board and its a shame that some people just don't see it. just my .02.