Scripture a day (Islam Edition)

[Sinfix_15]

Starting this thread to begin a debate on the actual scripture contained in the Quran. For starters, i'll give a brief introduction....

" The Quran (English pronunciation: / (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)k (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ɔr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ˈ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ɑː (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)n (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)[n 1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran#endnote_1) kor-ahn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pronunciation_respelling_key) , Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): القرآن‎ al-qurʼān, IPA: [qurˈʔaːn] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Arabic),[n 2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran#endnote_2) literally meaning "the recitation," also romanised (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Arabic) Qurʼanor Koran) is the central religious text (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_text) of Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam), which Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) believe to be a revelation from God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Islam) (Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): الله‎, Allah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah)).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran#cite_note-Britannica-1) It is widely regarded as the finest piece of literature in the Arabic language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_literature).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran#cite_note-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran#cite_note-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran#cite_note-4)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran#cite_note-5) Muslims consider the Quran to be the only book that has been protected by God from distortion or corruption.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran#cite_note-6) "


Going to set a few rules for this thread in hopes of keeping it on track.

(1)This is not a vs christianity thread. I understand that these two religions cross paths and that christianity will most likely be referenced in this discussion. Lets limit those comparisons to likeness in text and not real world events or past and present politics. We have discussed christianity in great lengths on this forum and threads for such discussions remain in tact if you want to participate. Said simply, try not to change the subject or turn this into a comparison of any other religion.

(2) Try to limit posts to a single scripture or group of like scriptures a day. Dont post a list of 50 scriptures at one time. If you have something to say on the subject and want to issue the entirety of your thoughts in a single post, that is fine. I only ask that you limit your referencing to scriptures so that each scripture can receive attention and be investigated thoroughly.

(3) This may come as a surprise to you all, i'm game for a "fight" but I'd like this thread not to become that. Facts are facts and some of them may become unkind, but make an effort to keep the conversation civil and on topic.

(4) Every scripture posted must reference the actual location of it in the quran. Everything we post will be an english translation, obviously, but for the sake of being able to cross reference any scripture posted, make sure to label it's location.


Also attached to this thread is a private poll.

[Sinfix_15]

Surah 8:12

I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

actual text - http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/8_12.png

Other translation from Sahih international

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."




You will find many references to decapitation or beheading in the Quran. I'm sure anyone who follows the news is familiar with the common practice of decapitation by Islamic extremist. Is this a misunderstanding? or just the literal interpretation of Islam?

[.blank cd]

There is absolutely zero point of this thread

[Sinfix_15]

There is absolutely zero point of this thread

Then run along. You seemed rather engaged when christianity was the topic. Try not to make your biases so obvious.

[.blank cd]

Then run along. You seemed rather engaged when christianity was the topic. Try not to make your biases so obvious.

Bigotry was the topic. And it still is. This thread reeks of it. Surprised it hasn't been locked or deleted.

[Sinfix_15]

Bigotry was the topic. And it still is. This thread reeks of it. Surprised it hasn't been locked or deleted.

are you high or something today? you're acting unusually stupid.

[David88vert]

Surah 8:12

I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

actual text - http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/8_12.png

Other translation from Sahih international

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."




You will find many references to decapitation or beheading in the Quran. I'm sure anyone who follows the news is familiar with the common practice of decapitation by Islamic extremist. Is this a misunderstanding? or just the literal interpretation of Islam?

Doesn't "Surah Al-Anfal" concern the spoils of war? Back when it was written, wasn't it normal to kill your enemies if you captured them, and they were not believers? Am I missing something - I'm not seeing what is controversial when you take it in context of the whole Surah.

[Sinfix_15]

Doesn't "Surah Al-Anfal" concern the spoils of war? Back when it was written, wasn't it normal to kill your enemies if you captured them, and they were not believers? Am I missing something - I'm not seeing what is controversial when you take it in context of the whole Surah.

That is correct. How would you define the perimeters of war through the eyes of a religion? how does a religion declare war? Who is the army in this setting and what justifies any war between them?

Is the war against non-believers? That is how i interpret it and i would assume it is the same way that islamic extremist do as well. The decapitations have not been limited to soldiers of war, just "non-believers". Even in a battle setting, does it not seem odd to endorse beheading and disfigurement? What message does this send?

[David88vert]

That is correct. How would you define the perimeters of war through the eyes of a religion? how does a religion declare war? Who is the army in this setting and what justifies any war between them?

Is the war against non-believers? That is how i interpret it and i would assume it is the same way that islamic extremist do as well. The decapitations have not been limited to soldiers of war, just "non-believers". Even in a battle setting, does it not seem odd to endorse beheading and disfigurement? What message does this send?

If you take it in the context in which it was written, the world was very different and much "smaller". At that point in time, there was little distinction between what constituted a citizen or a soldier. It was considered "normal" for a group conquering another to kill/execute the male citizens back in those times, in that part of the world - and that was not limited to the Muslim/Jewish conflicts. All of Europe, and most of Asia also had these violent tendencies in their cultures as well. The decapitations/executions and severing of limbs was not unusual at that point in history.

When you say that religion is declaring war, it shows that you do not understand the history of the book or the region of which you discuss.
There were two groups - those that followed Mohammed, and believed in his words, and those that did not. Those that did not were "non-believers" obviously, and did not try to live peacefully with Mohammed's followers, so of course, they were the enemy. The actual writings were not made until around 150 years after the death of Mohammed, from what I have read. Up until that time, they were passed down orally from generation to generation.

[Sinfix_15]

If you take it in the context in which it was written, the world was very different and much "smaller". At that point in time, there was little distinction between what constituted a citizen or a soldier. It was considered "normal" for a group conquering another to kill/execute the male citizens back in those times, in that part of the world - and that was not limited to the Muslim/Jewish conflicts. All of Europe, and most of Asia also had these violent tendencies in their cultures as well. The decapitations/executions and severing of limbs was not unusual at that point in history.

When you say that religion is declaring war, it shows that you do not understand the history of the book or the region of which you discuss.
There were two groups - those that followed Mohammed, and believed in his words, and those that did not. Those that did not were "non-believers" obviously, and did not try to live peacefully with Mohammed's followers, so of course, they were the enemy. The actual writings were not made until around 150 years after the death of Mohammed, from what I have read. Up until that time, they were passed down orally from generation to generation.

Saying it was normal for the time doesnt make it right and isnt a suitable defense. Comparing it to the crimes of other religions is not a defense either. I agree that this type of behavior is far too common in the entire religious spectrum, but for the sake of this particular debate, i am asking for answers in defense of Islam specifically.

Does beheading still happen today? Does disfigurement still happen today?

If a US soldier beheaded and disfigured an enemy combatant, what would happen to them?

[Elbow]

There is absolutely zero point of this thread

Although I know there will be loads of arguing in the way some things are interpreted, I like this thread idea and think it can be beneficial to everyone.

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Although I know there will be loads of arguing in the way some things are interpreted, I like this thread idea and think it can be beneficial to everyone.

But he's not using it to inform. He's using it to smear. He's not exposing anything new to anyone. He just wants to justify being a racist and a bigot.

[-EnVus-]

I don't see a choice for I am christian and open minded....

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I don't see a choice for I am christian and open minded....

Welcome to how to rationalize bigotry 101.

[David88vert]

Saying it was normal for the time doesnt make it right and isnt a suitable defense. Comparing it to the crimes of other religions is not a defense either. I agree that this type of behavior is far too common in the entire religious spectrum, but for the sake of this particular debate, i am asking for answers in defense of Islam specifically.

Does beheading still happen today? Does disfigurement still happen today?

If a US soldier beheaded and disfigured an enemy combatant, what would happen to them?

Do you realize that American law does not apply to non-Americans on foreign shores and that we did not have World Court prior to the Twentieth Century?
You cannot apply modern law and morals to ancient times.

[-EnVus-]

Welcome to how to rationalize bigotry 101.
I would like to know how sinfix has first hand knowledge or experience with Islam to wanna discuss it outside his internet and google search.

[Sinfix_15]

I would like to know how sinfix has first hand knowledge or experience with Islam to wanna discuss it outside his internet and google search.

Same as anyone else. Same as you and your religious beliefs. Everything is second hand information, unless i missed the part where you were sitting at the last supper with jesus? You base your beliefs on a book that has been translated into a language you understand, you sit in a church and have someone preach to you. What first hand knowledge do you have?

[Sinfix_15]

Welcome to how to rationalize bigotry 101.

You're being a serious douche lately, you're always an arrogant prick, but this level of douchebaggery is a new development. You're like a kid in a candy store on "make fun of christianity day", but here you are bombarding a thread that is trying to have a subjective debate about islam. You're probably the biggest hypocrite ive ever seen in my entire life.

[Sinfix_15]

Do you realize that American law does not apply to non-Americans on foreign shores and that we did not have World Court prior to the Twentieth Century?
You cannot apply modern law and morals to ancient times.

I cant say i agree with that. Also, the reason we're even having this debate to begin with is because the customs of ancient times are still happening today. You still see people get beheaded daily. To me that would be the same as seeing someone get crucified. I dont believe any of these actions were ever acceptable. The fact that religious texts deemed these actions acceptable at any point in time should cast a dark cloud over all religion. You're claiming that these were war time rules but how often throughout history is religion the cause of war.


Moving on from this particular scripture after this.

So you acknowledge that muslims endorsed the beheading and disfigurement of enemy combatants at some point in history and that in modern day time some portion of muslims still practice this belief of beheading and disfiguring enemies? Consider that a rhetorical question, because there's no way to deny it. What i'm looking for is justification for this belief.

[Elbow]

I cant say i agree with that. Also, the reason we're even having this debate to begin with is because the customs of ancient times are still happening today. You still see people get beheaded daily. To me that would be the same as seeing someone get crucified. I dont believe any of these actions were ever acceptable. The fact that religious texts deemed these actions acceptable at any point in time should cast a dark cloud over all religion. You're claiming that these were war time rules but how often throughout history is religion the cause of war.


Moving on from this particular scripture after this.

So you acknowledge that muslims endorsed the beheading and disfigurement of enemy combatants at some point in history and that in modern day time some portion of muslims still practice this belief of beheading and disfiguring enemies? Consider that a rhetorical question, because there's no way to deny it. What i'm looking for is justification for this belief.

Here's the problem, you speak as though Islam ad a whole really does still behead people. Show me where daily this is still the norm. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying you're still putting radicals at the head of the show.

Should we follow any religious book written in original form word for word? No, even the Bible has violence. People that do are called extremists.

[-EnVus-]

Same as anyone else. Same as you and your religious beliefs. Everything is second hand information, unless i missed the part where you were sitting at the last supper with jesus? You base your beliefs on a book that has been translated into a language you understand, you sit in a church and have someone preach to you. What first hand knowledge do you have?

I live by the good book I read and worship the god I know. You don't read and worship Islam you may read it in parts and those are the ones you think depict them all as butchers or extremist. Typical radical racist move to just judge a book by its cover to think all Islam is bad or wrong. Remove that white hood of hate and come from the hidden be more open to others and live life how it was intended.

[David88vert]

I cant say i agree with that. Also, the reason we're even having this debate to begin with is because the customs of ancient times are still happening today. You still see people get beheaded daily. To me that would be the same as seeing someone get crucified. I dont believe any of these actions were ever acceptable. The fact that religious texts deemed these actions acceptable at any point in time should cast a dark cloud over all religion. You're claiming that these were war time rules but how often throughout history is religion the cause of war.


Moving on from this particular scripture after this.

So you acknowledge that muslims endorsed the beheading and disfigurement of enemy combatants at some point in history and that in modern day time some portion of muslims still practice this belief of beheading and disfiguring enemies? Consider that a rhetorical question, because there's no way to deny it. What i'm looking for is justification for this belief.

How is lethal injection, hanging, firing squad, or the electric chair any more civilized than beheading? The end result is the same - a quick death for those that have committed crimes that call for capital punishment. Are you against all capital crime, or just the ones that you don't like? As for treatment of war prisoners, do you believe that we did not torture Muslims at Gitmo, or the other black sites in Europe? Do you think that US operatives have never cut off fingers to extract information? If you think that the US doesn't torture, I have some seaside property to sell you in Montana.

Religion is not the cause for war. Men using religion in their quest for power and land is the cause of war. Just like a gun cannot shoot someone without a person picking it up and pulling the trigger, a book cannot do anything until someone uses it's writings.

There is no need for justification of belief - we are discussing historical facts, and you keep confusing yourself by trying to apply your current modern beliefs with ancient times.

Since you do not seem to realize this basic concept, you should move onto the next scripture.

[.blank cd]

Why are 3 people questioning Sinfix's commitment to partiality? This thread is supposedly free of racism and bigotry and logical fallacies.......right?

[D3UC3S]

There is no Jesus and god.....we all started as micro organisms and have evolved and adapted to life upon this rock floating through the cosmos. Our biological energy will be the only thing to move on. Organized religion was created to keep the masses in check so that the ones deemed "leaders" could rule and do as they please.


Thread is pointless.

[Sinfix_15]

I live by the good book I read and worship the god I know. You don't read and worship Islam you may read it in parts and those are the ones you think depict them all as butchers or extremist. Typical radical racist move to just judge a book by its cover to think all Islam is bad or wrong. Remove that white hood of hate and come from the hidden be more open to others and live life how it was intended.

I dont worship any god, because no god exists. My interest in religions is an interest in how it has managed to control men since the beginning of time as we know it. Religion is a curiosity to me. Everything you know about the god you chose to worship was delivered to you 2nd hand. Whether it be your translation of the bible or what your preacher tells you, it isnt all that different from my google searching or reading.

What i find interesting about this topic is how many people have turned away from a subjective argument and are just directly making personal attacks. And you're doing it to stop hate and show me how live should be lived. Oh the unbridled hypocrisy of the religious.

[Sinfix_15]

Why are 3 people questioning Sinfix's commitment to partiality? This thread is supposedly free of racism and bigotry and logical fallacies.......right?

Why are you still here? You hang on my every word like you're a sad puppy dog and i have a pocket full of beggin strips. If you dont like what i have to say, then remove yourself from hanging off my nuts. This topic obviously does not suit your fancy. Run along.

[Sinfix_15]

How is lethal injection, hanging, firing squad, or the electric chair any more civilized than beheading? The end result is the same - a quick death for those that have committed crimes that call for capital punishment. Are you against all capital crime, or just the ones that you don't like? As for treatment of war prisoners, do you believe that we did not torture Muslims at Gitmo, or the other black sites in Europe? Do you think that US operatives have never cut off fingers to extract information? If you think that the US doesn't torture, I have some seaside property to sell you in Montana.

Religion is not the cause for war. Men using religion in their quest for power and land is the cause of war. Just like a gun cannot shoot someone without a person picking it up and pulling the trigger, a book cannot do anything until someone uses it's writings.

There is no need for justification of belief - we are discussing historical facts, and you keep confusing yourself by trying to apply your current modern beliefs with ancient times.

Since you do not seem to realize this basic concept, you should move onto the next scripture.

How does pointing out evil excuse other evil? You're saying basically "these people did something evil, so that justifies the evil acts endorses by Islam". You get no argument from me that there's plenty of other evil in the world. Lethal injection is designed to be humane and painless. Beheading, as it is described in the Quran specifically says it is an exhibition meant to strike fear into other enemies.

Why do you need to attach insult into your opinion that i am confusing my current beliefs with ancient times? I cant fathom it ever being normal for someone to cut someone's head off. I dont care what the time period was. I find it even more difficult to comprehend a religion endorsing this behavior, no matter what the time period was.
Is me feeling this way really worthy of criticism? The fact that i cant rationalize religious beheading? Does that make me a bad person? I guess so.

So when a Muslim films himself sawing off the head of an innocent civilian for the sole purpose of mailing it to america, is that not them striking fear into their enemies the same as the Quran described?

Final comment on this scripture. My next post will introduce a new one.

[Sinfix_15]

There is no Jesus and god.....we all started as micro organisms and have evolved and adapted to life upon this rock floating through the cosmos. Our biological energy will be the only thing to move on. Organized religion was created to keep the masses in check so that the ones deemed "leaders" could rule and do as they please.


Thread is pointless.

I agree, but we can still investigate this mystery of humanity being controlled by religions.

[Sinfix_15]

Chapter 2 verse 22,23,24

22 [He] who made for you the earth a bed [spread out] and the sky a ceiling and sent down from the sky, rain and brought forth thereby fruits as provision for you. So do not attribute to Allah equals while you know [that there is nothing similar to Him].
23 And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful.
24 But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

These verses are translated to english by sahih international. I think it's fair to say that these are not exaggerated or altered in any way, they are honest translations worthy of discussion. I'm going to continue using the sahih international translations moving forward.



One trend you will find in the Quran is that a large portion of the book, estimated probably at least half of it is directed at how to deal with nonbelievers. The Quran really drives home the point that they share disdain for nonbelievers. Lets dig into this next scripture...

[.blank cd]

Why are you still here? You hang on my every word like you're a sad puppy dog and i have a pocket full of beggin strips. If you dont like what i have to say, then remove yourself from hanging off my nuts. This topic obviously does not suit your fancy. Run along.

No one's hanging from your nuts. You're not that special. Get over yourself.

[Sinfix_15]

No one's hanging from your nuts. You're not that special. Get over yourself.

I feel pretty special. You apparently have no control over the level of attention you give me and i clearly have the ability to keep your feathers ruffled. Perhaps you have met your match. My advice to you would be to exit stage left.

[D3UC3S]

You two should just have sex and get it over with.

[.blank cd]

You two should just have sex and get it over with.

No, Echo.

[David88vert]

How does pointing out evil excuse other evil? You're saying basically "these people did something evil, so that justifies the evil acts endorses by Islam". You get no argument from me that there's plenty of other evil in the world. Lethal injection is designed to be humane and painless. Beheading, as it is described in the Quran specifically says it is an exhibition meant to strike fear into other enemies.

Why do you need to attach insult into your opinion that i am confusing my current beliefs with ancient times? I cant fathom it ever being normal for someone to cut someone's head off. I dont care what the time period was. I find it even more difficult to comprehend a religion endorsing this behavior, no matter what the time period was.
Is me feeling this way really worthy of criticism? The fact that i cant rationalize religious beheading? Does that make me a bad person? I guess so.

So when a Muslim films himself sawing off the head of an innocent civilian for the sole purpose of mailing it to america, is that not them striking fear into their enemies the same as the Quran described?

Final comment on this scripture. My next post will introduce a new one.

I did not make the statement that you attempted to attribute to me.

Since you are unable to comprehend historical events - based upon your own statements, then you are unable to continue a rational discussion on this topic.
Perhaps you never wanted a rational discussion.

[D3UC3S]

Echo is married, he won't have sex with you.

Hehehe. You know I love you both. You make me feel better about my marriage. We don't fight near as much as you two.

[Sinfix_15]

I did not make the statement that you attempted to attribute to me.

Since you are unable to comprehend historical events - based upon your own statements, then you are unable to continue a rational discussion on this topic.
Perhaps you never wanted a rational discussion.

Why is it so hard for you to address the information alone? you're railroading this discussion to be about me. I am posting actual scripture and offering my thoughts on it. I offer my thoughts to be critiqued. That is a rational discussion.

So would your explanation of why the radical extremist exist is because they too are not capable of comprehending historical events and are acting out the literal interpretation of what they read in the Quran?

Wrap up your argument on the 1st scripture so we can move on to the next one please.

[Sinfix_15]

Echo is married, he won't have sex with you.

Hehehe. You know I love you both. You make me feel better about my marriage. We don't fight near as much as you two.

Blank and i would be good friends IRL. Opposites attract. Even though blank imagines me as a natural light drinking redneck sitting on the tail gate of my pickup truck with all my white friends talking about how much we hate Obama..... actually, nearly all of my friends are just like blank. I only have one friend who is the typical "redneck". Most of my friends are opinionated liberal jackasses just like blank and we still get along like peas and carrots.

Blank loves to argue, he just hates to lose arguments.

[David88vert]

Why is it so hard for you to address the information alone? you're railroading this discussion to be about me. I am posting actual scripture and offering my thoughts on it. I offer my thoughts to be critiqued. That is a rational discussion.

So would your explanation of why the radical extremist exist is because they too are not capable of comprehending historical events and are acting out the literal interpretation of what they read in the Quran?

Wrap up your argument on the 1st scripture so we can move on to the next one please.

Your opinion on the first scripture does not take into account history, and you cannot correctly apply your modern day thinking to life 1500 years ago. You are fully entitled to have your own opinion, and you do not have to agree with history and reality, and that appears to be the route that you have chosen to take.

In response to your current question: Yes, radical extremists, by definition, go to the outer fringes in their beliefs, and the majority of Muslims are not radical extremists. EVERY set of beliefs (religious and non-religious) has people that are on the extreme fringes.

[Sinfix_15]

Your opinion on the first scripture does not take into account history, and you cannot correctly apply your modern day thinking to life 1500 years ago. You are fully entitled to have your own opinion, and you do not have to agree with history and reality, and that appears to be the route that you have chosen to take.

In response to your current question: Yes, radical extremists, by definition, go to the outer fringes in their beliefs, and the majority of Muslims are not radical extremists. EVERY set of beliefs (religious and non-religious) has people that are on the extreme fringes.

Sounds like your "reality" is a place where you can make up the rules as you go. Why cant i apply modern thinking to history? Sounds like you're guilty of confusing your own opinions with facts.

How can you say that the extremist are going to the outer fringes of their beliefs? they are the ones following the letter of the law. Beheading and disfigurement is not the "outer fringe", it's Islam. It's part of the religion. It's part of the book.

The natural evolution of things is that with time we have evolved and become more intelligent. With our new found intelligence, we are more civilized. The culmination of that is that most intelligent people learn to put aside religion all together, but to those few who are clinging to it, you cant just rewrite the book and erase the parts of you dont like. I'm aware that 100% of muslims are not evil people and that a portion of them, like christians, follow the moral code laid out and ignore the "fire and brimstone". Islam the religion itself is one of the greatest evils plaguing mankind today. That doesnt mean that every muslim who has fallen victim to it is evil.

Also, who are you to say that the values of islam have changed since acient history?? You say beheading, disfigurement and all of these other war tactics are acient history.....

correct me if im wrong.... isnt there a civil war taking place right now? it is 2013 right?

[Sinfix_15]

22 [He] who made for you the earth a bed [spread out] and the sky a ceiling and sent down from the sky, rain and brought forth thereby fruits as provision for you. So do not attribute to Allah equals while you know [that there is nothing similar to Him].
23 And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful.
24 But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

What message is being sent when it says that stones are prepared for disbelievers? It basically says, if your god is real, then your god will protect you from being stoned. I also like how this scripture reeks of arrogance. The Quran is full of gamesmanship and has a very condescending way of talking about other religions.

[Sinfix_15]

That's all for tonight. Moving forward, if you're going to inject your own opinion into this conversation and pawn it off as fact, like my friend David is, please provide a scripture that supports your thoughts. If you cant defend the scripture with scripture, then maybe i am perfectly right and justified in questioning this religious text.

[David88vert]

Sounds like your "reality" is a place where you can make up the rules as you go. Why cant i apply modern thinking to history? Sounds like you're guilty of confusing your own opinions with facts.

I am not "making up rules". I am remembering that the ancient world did not have the same viewpoints that we do today. I am not condoning their actions, I am simply looking at how the scriptures were written in the context of historical times, of which we have documentation on - that is not "making things up".

I suggest that you do a little research on the times of Mohammed. There are ample resources available, including documentaries.


How can you say that the extremist are going to the outer fringes of their beliefs? they are the ones following the letter of the law. Beheading and disfigurement is not the "outer fringe", it's Islam. It's part of the religion. It's part of the book.

Extremists are on the outer fringes of their beliefs - hence the term, extremist. They are not mainstream to their religion.
Yes, it part of the Islamic scriptures, and as I stated before, how is that any different that what we do now? How is beheading a worse death that electrocution? It just happened to be the popular method of execution in that part of the world at that time.


The natural evolution of things is that with time we have evolved and become more intelligent. With our new found intelligence, we are more civilized. The culmination of that is that most intelligent people learn to put aside religion all together, but to those few who are clinging to it, you cant just rewrite the book and erase the parts of you dont like. I'm aware that 100% of muslims are not evil people and that a portion of them, like christians, follow the moral code laid out and ignore the "fire and brimstone". Islam the religion itself is one of the greatest evils plaguing mankind today. That doesnt mean that every muslim who has fallen victim to it is evil.

That is purely your opinion, and you are welcome to believe that if you like. It has no bearing on the discussion of the Islamic scriptures though, and by your own rules, shouldn't be included in this thread. If this is the route that you wish to go in discussion, then this thread can be locked/deleted/abandoned now.


Also, who are you to say that the values of islam have changed since acient history?? You say beheading, disfigurement and all of these other war tactics are acient history.....

While this is totally off the topic that this thread should be on, let me give you this insight.
My business partner for almost a decade was a devoted Muslim, and I spent a lot of time with his other Muslim friends, business acquaintances, etc. Being around Muslims on a daily basis, for large parts of everyday, gives you an opportunity to see how they are, what they believe, etc. Have you ever been around Muslims everyday for years on end? You make a big deal about your life experiences about your observations of other cultures in other threads - should no one else have this same insight on Muslim cultures? Let me ask you this, how many radical Islamic extremists and/or terrorist have you personally met, and spent time with? What is your knowledge and experience with the Muslim culture based upon?


correct me if im wrong.... isnt there a civil war taking place right now? it is 2013 right?

Yes, there is a civil war in Syria currently, and if we are to believe all of your previous threads, we are on the verge of having one in the US soon as well. Are you aware that the current Mexican Drug War is also listed as a civil war? Last I checked, they don't believe in Islam, and religion is not playing a part in that conflict. What part does the Islamic scriptures play as a cause/reason in the Syrian conflict?

[David88vert]

That's all for tonight. Moving forward, if you're going to inject your own opinion into this conversation and pawn it off as fact, like my friend David is, please provide a scripture that supports your thoughts. If you cant defend the scripture with scripture, then maybe i am perfectly right and justified in questioning this religious text.

You should always question any book, especially religious books. No one is telling you not to question the Islamic scriptures, just to take them in context.

There is no need to bring in other scriptures "to contradict" the verses that you listed. Your understanding of them is what is the issue, not the scripture itself. You seem unable to wrap your head around that point.

The scripture that you brought up was no different than the story of the Hebrews taking the city of Ai in the Bible. It's really that simple - and not really controversial. It was written about a battle in which a few Muslims defeated a much larger force, and killed all of the non-believer leaders. Read all 75 verses of Surah Al-Anfal - not just one. Read up on the Battle of Badr, which the surah was written about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Badr - prior to this battle, the Muslims had no established moral principals. You blast them on their morals, and you blast this surah, but that is exactly what it was written to help start to establish.

The surah is really about:
- The fact that the victory was due to the help of Allah rather than their own efforts and bravery was stressed so that Muslims should learn to rely on Allah and obey.
- The moral lesson of the conflict between the truth and falsehood was explained.
- The mushrikin, the hypocrites, the Jews, and the prisoners of war are addressed advising them to learn a lesson.
- Instructions to the spoils of war. Muslims were told not to regard these as their right but as a bounty from Allah. Accept with thanks the share that is granted to them out of it and accede to the share which Allah sets aside for his cause, and for the help of the needy.
- Normal instructions concerning the laws of peace and war, needed at the stage which the Islamic movement had entered. It enjoined that the Muslims should refrain from ignorance whether they are in peace or in war and establish moral superiority in the world.
- The differences of status of Muslims living within the limits of Dar-ul-Islam, from that of the Muslims living beyond its limits.

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..then this thread can be locked/deleted/abandoned now.

Best opinion in this thread

[-EnVus-]

Blank tell me more about how Sinfix is wrong

[David88vert]

22 [He] who made for you the earth a bed [spread out] and the sky a ceiling and sent down from the sky, rain and brought forth thereby fruits as provision for you. So do not attribute to Allah equals while you know [that there is nothing similar to Him].
23 And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful.
24 But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

What message is being sent when it says that stones are prepared for disbelievers? It basically says, if your god is real, then your god will protect you from being stoned. I also like how this scripture reeks of arrogance. The Quran is full of gamesmanship and has a very condescending way of talking about other religions.

That is a huge surah, and that part is simply a declaration that the message coming from Allah through Mohammed is the truth, and that the Jew of Medina (and everyone else) should believe it as the truth, but they are aware that the ignorant will not believe it to be the truth. Non-believers will suffer the wrath of Allah, and may be stoned basically for the crime of not believing it to be the truth.

What is it exactly that you want to discuss about it? Seems like you are just taking a swipe at belittling their scriptures with your last two sentences, as there is no information that goes towards a talking point.

You did not mention what the surah was, but it is Surah Al-Baqarah.

You might want to consider choosing scriptures that are more discussion worthy, if you original post was intended by you to be genuine.

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Blank tell me more about how Sinfix is wrong

Logical fallacy after logical fallacy after straw man after straw man.

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You might want to consider choosing scriptures that are more discussion worthy, if you original post was intended by you to be genuine.

But that's not the purpose of this thread. The purpose is to justify being a bigot. He drew a false conclusion with hasty generalizations and is attempting to support it. Why do you think he's picked the worst part of the scripture. He's not gonna give you any scripture that's blue skies and roses.

[Sinfix_15]

While this is totally off the topic that this thread should be on, let me give you this insight.
My business partner for almost a decade was a devoted Muslim, and I spent a lot of time with his other Muslim friends, business acquaintances, etc. Being around Muslims on a daily basis, for large parts of everyday, gives you an opportunity to see how they are, what they believe, etc. Have you ever been around Muslims everyday for years on end? You make a big deal about your life experiences about your observations of other cultures in other threads - should no one else have this same insight on Muslim cultures? Let me ask you this, how many radical Islamic extremists and/or terrorist have you personally met, and spent time with? What is your knowledge and experience with the Muslim culture based upon?


Even says in the Quran for muslims to befriend nonbelievers to deceive them. How black and white does this need to be for you to get it? While you may be open minded and accepting of other religions, nothing about Islam shares that value. Islam is about control.

I talk to a former muslim on a daily basis. His entire family is muslim, but he gave it up to become a christian. He was a muslim for 30+ years. His family no longer has anything to do with him because of his decision. We talk almost every day and various life issues. His opinions of Islam are pretty close to my own. He's a lot more forgiving than i am and certainly not as hateful, but he says Islam is a very extreme religion and that they have no interest in ever being accepting of american values or other religions. I also have two other friends who belong to muslim families. Theyre brothers, neither of them are that religious and they both talk about how extreme their parents and families are. They're so cautious of how their parents are that they wont even bring anyone around them.

[Sinfix_15]

But that's not the purpose of this thread. The purpose is to justify being a bigot. He drew a false conclusion with hasty generalizations and is attempting to support it. Why do you think he's picked the worst part of the scripture. He's not gonna give you any scripture that's blue skies and roses.

Why are you still here? You have no reservations about mocking christians, but you're acting like a crying vagina in this thread. Are your parents muslim? your girlfriend muslim? what is the cause for you being such a douche?

You dont have to hang on to my every word. You can avoid this conversation if you're too offended.

[Sinfix_15]

What is it exactly that you want to discuss about it? Seems like you are just taking a swipe at belittling their scriptures with your last two sentences, as there is no information that goes towards a talking point.

You did not mention what the surah was, but it is Surah Al-Baqarah.

You might want to consider choosing scriptures that are more discussion worthy, if you original post was intended by you to be genuine.

It is your opinion that i'm taking it out of context, then put it in context for me. That is the discussion. I'm quoting scriptures. I've already stated that i am participating as the skeptic.

[Sinfix_15]

4:34

http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/4_34.png

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

[David88vert]

Even says in the Quran for muslims to befriend nonbelievers to deceive them. How black and white does this need to be for you to get it? While you may be open minded and accepting of other religions, nothing about Islam shares that value. Islam is about control.

I talk to a former muslim on a daily basis. His entire family is muslim, but he gave it up to become a christian. He was a muslim for 30+ years. His family no longer has anything to do with him because of his decision. We talk almost every day and various life issues. His opinions of Islam are pretty close to my own. He's a lot more forgiving than i am and certainly not as hateful, but he says Islam is a very extreme religion and that they have no interest in ever being accepting of american values or other religions. I also have two other friends who belong to muslim families. Theyre brothers, neither of them are that religious and they both talk about how extreme their parents and families are. They're so cautious of how their parents are that they wont even bring anyone around them.

So, basically, you do not know any devout Muslims. None of them go to the mosque on Fridays or spend time in the Muslim community. You only have friends who have left their faith. You are only exposed to the negative opinions. That explains a lot.

How many times have you or your family members been attacked by Muslims seeking to behead you for being an unbeliever? How many times have you seen something like an Islamic beheading of a non-believer happen inside the US borders? Are you claiming that none of the 2.6 million Muslims that live in the US are true Muslims? They might disagree with you.

The only hate speech that I see on this forum is coming from you - the atheist. I don't see any religious believers spouting the same amount of hate speech that you have admitted to.

[David88vert]

It is your opinion that i'm taking it out of context, then put it in context for me. That is the discussion. I'm quoting scriptures. I've already stated that i am participating as the skeptic.

Quoting a random scripture, and then giving no discussion point on it, accomplishes nothing. Make a point, and then show the scriptures that show or disagree with it. You didn't spend any time on the debate team in school, did you?

You definitely took it out of context - you didn't even give a reference to it, nor a talking point, just copied a random verse. Read the whole surah, and go look at history to see what it was being written about first, then state your point about it, along with supporting text/viewpoints/historical facts.

[David88vert]

4:34

http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/4_34.png

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

So, you copy in a scripture, but nothing more? Make your case...

[Sinfix_15]

So, basically, you do not know any devout Muslims. None of them go to the mosque on Fridays or spend time in the Muslim community. You only have friends who have left their faith. You are only exposed to the negative opinions. That explains a lot.

How many times have you or your family members been attacked by Muslims seeking to behead you for being an unbeliever? How many times have you seen something like an Islamic beheading of a non-believer happen inside the US borders? Are you claiming that none of the 2.6 million Muslims that live in the US are true Muslims? They might disagree with you.

The only hate speech that I see on this forum is coming from you - the atheist. I don't see any religious believers spouting the same amount of hate speech that you have admitted to.

Someone who spent 30+ years of their life as a muslim can offer an opinion. Your sample of life isnt any more credible than mine. Where does the superiority complex come from?

How many times has my country been attacked by muslims? the answer... enough.
http://ilocanoyork.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/twin-towers.jpg






What i say is not hate speech. The truth is not hate speech. You cant ignore the crimes of muslims and pretend they didnt happen. If youre arguing for the honor of the muslims that live peacefully, that's fine. I know 100% of muslims are not extremist, so you can stop now. Point has been made. 1000s of people still die in the name of this religion. The people doing the killing are muslims. The people doing the beheading are muslims. The people pouring acid on womens faces are muslims. The people cutting off hands and fingers are muslims. The people raping women and children are muslims. I find it hilarious that you accuse me of hate speech. I'm the one questioning the endless bloodshed on behalf of all religions..... you're the one defending this bloodshed.

How are these extremist so misguided? Do you not find it odd that there's an easy connection to make between their actions and the scripture itself.

You've made your entire argument an attack on me personally. All of the hostility in this thread is generated by you. I am reading the Koran....... apologies, it's not a Dr Sues book and i wont be done with it this weekend. I also plan on visiting a Mosque. I also attend christian churches. I have a few friends that play in their choir bands and i go watch them sometimes. They dont even know i'm an atheist. Religion is a curiosity to me, particularly its control over man.

I find it strangely interesting that this religion has even generated hate inside you, an otherwise calm and rational person. Perhaps it's influence is greater than you realize. When i see people talk about religion sometimes i feel like there's some type of brain control device putting out waves that i am immune to. From the outside looking in, it really is amazingly ridiculous.



PS.... beheading in the US. http://www.christianpost.com/news/egyptian-christian-immigrants-murdered-beheaded-in-nj-90424/

Islamist extremism is an epidemic in the UK, with more and more immigration, these problems will make there way to the US. You cant make up your own facts. Regardless of how many innocent muslims you think there are, these vile acts on behalf of islam continue to happen daily.

[Sinfix_15]

So, you copy in a scripture, but nothing more? Make your case...

Yeah, figured i would give someone else a chance to speak first..... trying to sway the personal attacks. I'm actually interested in discussing the scripture itself rather than have someone attack me every post.

[Sinfix_15]

The religion of peace....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qZ-QX8LuKHA

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Some political scientists, particularly Robert Pape, one such scientist who specializes in suicide terrorism, say there is little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism. He concludes that terrorist attacks stem from political conflict, and not religious conflict.

[Sinfix_15]

Some political scientists, particularly Robert Pape, one such scientist who specializes in suicide terrorism, say there is little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism. He concludes that terrorist attacks stem from political conflict, and not religious conflict.

Sounds like an asinine conclusion to come to, but Islamic terrorism has a political presence too. Islam's goal is world domination. They are very active in the political arena. Egypt is currently in the process of removing muslim terrorists from their government.


I've love for you to lay out some examples of terrorism acted out by a muslim that was based on a political belief and not a religious one. The idea sounds ridiculous. So far every argument produced in favor is islam is a turn the blind eye denial of what happens on behalf of Islam. When a terrorist blows up a building while screaming "ALLAH ALLAH ALLAH ISLAM WILL DOMINATE THE WORLD" , you're still looking for something else to blame it on.

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Sounds like an asinine conclusion to come to,He's a scientist, and has come to a conclusion based on evidence. You've seemed to want to oppose the scientific method and want to make a false conclusion, and then find evidence to support that. Why do you believe this is the correct way to approach a problem, and that the entire scientific community is approaching it in the wrong way?
but Islamic terrorism has a political presence too. Islam's goal is world domination. They are very active in the political arena. Egypt is currently in the process of removing muslim terrorists from their government.Islams goal is world domination? Do you have evidence for that? Is that written in any text anywhere?



I've love for you to lay out some examples of terrorism acted out by a muslim that was based on a political belief and not a religious one.The idea sounds ridiculous.Pape says he's analyzed over 300 significant events and has come to that conclusion.
So far every argument produced in favor is islam is a turn the blind eye denial of what happens on behalf of Islam.I dont think theres a single argument in favor of islam in this thread. Just a bunch of arguments against your false assumtions.


When a terrorist blows up a building while screaming "ALLAH ALLAH ALLAH ISLAM WILL DOMINATE THE WORLD"
Do you have evidence of them screaming this? I don't ever think I've heard that before. Of course, I've never been in a place where a building has been blown up, so I've never been within earshot of that.

[Sinfix_15]

He's a scientist, and has come to a conclusion based on evidence. You've seemed to want to oppose the scientific method and want to make a false conclusion, and then find evidence to support that. Why do you believe this is the correct way to approach a problem, and that the entire scientific community is approaching it in the wrong way? Islams goal is world domination? Do you have evidence for that? Is that written in any text anywhere?

It's written in the text everywhere. Continue participating in this thread and you will see plenty more scriptures. Islam's primary function, like a lot of other religions, is control. Just so happens that Islam is the most aggressive and lawless religion known to the human race.



Pape says he's analyzed over 300 significant events and has come to that conclusion. I dont think theres a single argument in favor of islam in this thread. Just a bunch of arguments against your false assumtions.

Show these sources. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary.



Do you have evidence of them screaming this? I don't ever think I've heard that before. Of course, I've never been in a place where a building has been blown up, so I've never been within earshot of that.

You really want to go this route of denial? I could literally post 100+ videos of muslims screaming religious phrases while committing murder and terrorism.....

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Show these sources. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary. Heres Pape's book "Dying to Win"

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=SOlnH3f_dXwC&oi=fnd&pg=PA3&dq=religion+and+violence+Robert+Pape&ots=hlLiiYcauv&sig=b8TKBmOX7nPgpG_7d8-SkrrQ61Y

Could you cite some evidence refuting Pape? Please make sure your source is credible enough to cite in at least a college level assignment.


You really want to go this route of denial? I could literally post 100+ videos of muslims screaming religious phrases while committing murder and terrorism.....

Great! If there are 100s of examples, then you could show just one

[David88vert]

Someone who spent 30+ years of their life as a muslim can offer an opinion.


I agree. Get him to post his opinion in here. You aren't him.


Your sample of life isnt any more credible than mine. Where does the superiority complex come from?


You are the one who talks about personal experience in previous topics, but now, when the tables are turned, and you do not have the same personal experience, then the rules have to change. Interesting.
The fact is, you have no personal experience (that you have stated up to now) with Muslims who are active in you faith.



How many times has my country been attacked by muslims? the answer... enough.

I agree.
It has also been attacked by the British even more times than Muslims have attacked. Should we kick out all British?



What i say is not hate speech. The truth is not hate speech. You cant ignore the crimes of muslims and pretend they didnt happen. If youre arguing for the honor of the muslims that live peacefully, that's fine. I know 100% of muslims are not extremist, so you can stop now. Point has been made. 1000s of people still die in the name of this religion. The people doing the killing are muslims. The people doing the beheading are muslims. The people pouring acid on womens faces are muslims. The people cutting off hands and fingers are muslims. The people raping women and children are muslims. I find it hilarious that you accuse me of hate speech. I'm the one questioning the endless bloodshed on behalf of all religions..... you're the one defending this bloodshed.

You state now that, "What i say is not hate speech. The truth is not hate speech", but in the other thread, you stated, "Fuck every single muslim walking this planet." To me, that reads as hate speech, not as "the truth". I based my statement of what you stated, clearly and simply.

Let me be clear, I am not telling you to ignore the crimes committed by terrorists, whether they are Muslim, Christian, Hindu, atheist, etc. I am pointing out a simple truth that the VAST majority of people of all religions live peacefully, and only extremists perform these heinous acts. They use religion as an excuse and a justification of their wrong-doings.

You point out extremists and act like all atrocities committed are due to their religious beliefs, yet we see Mexicans committing these same style of crimes at our borders, and you say nothing. I am not defending bloodshed, I am simply stating that you cannot make a blanket statement that all of the evil in the world is due to Islam, or that all that believe in Islam are evil. The statement from you, "Islam is filth", is hate speech, which you are entitled to make, but don't be surprised when you are called out on it.




How are these extremist so misguided? Do you not find it odd that there's an easy connection to make between their actions and the scripture itself.

People commit evil acts when it benefits them, and try to justify it - sometimes with religion, sometimes with other arguments. Aren't you a person that believes in personal responsibility? A book cannot make a person do evil acts - they have to choose to do those acts themselves.



You've made your entire argument an attack on me personally. All of the hostility in this thread is generated by you. I am reading the Koran....... apologies, it's not a Dr Sues book and i wont be done with it this weekend. I also plan on visiting a Mosque. I also attend christian churches. I have a few friends that play in their choir bands and i go watch them sometimes. They dont even know i'm an atheist. Religion is a curiosity to me, particularly its control over man.

Let me be clear - I am not attacking you, and I am not being hostile. I am simply pointing out issues with your statements. I have no dislike for you, or any problem with you, just that your statements are nothing more than opinions (which you are entitled to have) with no stated foundation. You claimed that you wanted a discourse on the surahs, but apparently, only if everyone agrees with you.

I agree that you should visit a mosque, a Buddhist temple, and a Jewish synagogue as well. Perhaps you should develop more friends of different religions if you have an interest in learning about them. I predict that you will find that the majority of people have the same goals as most - to give their children a better life that they have had.


I find it strangely interesting that this religion has even generated hate inside you, an otherwise calm and rational person. Perhaps it's influence is greater than you realize. When i see people talk about religion sometimes i feel like there's some type of brain control device putting out waves that i am immune to. From the outside looking in, it really is amazingly ridiculous.

Hatred from me? Are you on crack? I have no animosity towards anyone regarding Islam. I'm not Muslim, and don't aspire to be. I haven't made one hateful statement in any of these threads. You might want to look at your earlier statements. You are the one making blanket statements about a religion that you have shown that you know almost nothing about - based upon your own statements.



PS.... beheading in the US. Egyptian Christian Immigrants Murdered, Beheaded in NJ (http://www.christianpost.com/news/egyptian-christian-immigrants-murdered-beheaded-in-nj-90424/)

I'm guessing that you missed that he shot both of them to death first, then cut off their heads and hands in an attempt to prevent identification. The article never states that this was a religion-based killing, and even goes so far as to say that he was not particularly religious. The only people that speculated on it were disconnected from the accused. How is this any different than a "normal" murder? Perhaps you have more information than this article?




Islamist extremism is an epidemic in the UK, with more and more immigration, these problems will make there way to the US. You cant make up your own facts. Regardless of how many innocent muslims you think there are, these vile acts on behalf of islam continue to happen daily.

Extremism is an issue in the UK, and it might become an issue in the US in the future - I agree.
There are abut 2.6 innocent Muslims in the US today, would you have us condemn them all?
These vile acts are performed every day at the Mexico-Texas border, but I haven't heard you rant about that yet - only if there is some religious element that might be tied to it. In fact, murders happen all over the world every day, but you seem to be selective on these, and want to blame the religion, rather than the person that commits the crime.

[David88vert]

Yeah, figured i would give someone else a chance to speak first..... trying to sway the personal attacks. I'm actually interested in discussing the scripture itself rather than have someone attack me every post.

Generally, when you want to have a discourse on a topic, you give a viewpoint with the topic.

[David88vert]

The religion of peace....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qZ-QX8LuKHA

What does this post have to do with a discussion of a scripture? You are violating your own rules - or are you changing the rules?

[Sinfix_15]

What does this post have to do with a discussion of a scripture? You are violating your own rules - or are you changing the rules?

You started the rock throwing. Also, the primary argument being presented is you and blank pretending like islamic extremism doesnt exist or are trying to minimize it. Consider the video evidence. My argument is that Islam is about control and their goal is world domination. You disagree... so i submit evidence in the form of a video.

I would prefer to talk just about the scriptures.... but you dont want to do that, you're focusing on your efforts on me and/or my credibility. You cant produce a scripture that denies anything i suggest, you simply attack my interpretation of it or take the route of denial.

[Sinfix_15]

I agree. Get him to post his opinion in here. You aren't him.

No problem. You do the same. Quit speaking for anyone you know that is a muslim and let them speak for themselves. Your experience is no more credible than my own. You cant claim your experience as evidence and then discredit mine.




You are the one who talks about personal experience in previous topics, but now, when the tables are turned, and you do not have the same personal experience, then the rules have to change. Interesting.
The fact is, you have no personal experience (that you have stated up to now) with Muslims who are active in you faith.
Yes i do. Just because a muslim hasnt beheaded someone in my living room doesnt mean that i do not see it happening. Just because they havnt bombed my neighborhood does not mean that they havnt bombed my country. If i was one of those people who got their legs blown off in boston would my opinion of muslims be valid then??? Do i have to wait to become a victim before speaking out?




I agree.
It has also been attacked by the British even more times than Muslims have attacked. Should we kick out all British?

Sure, show me where the british handbook instructs them to attack americans.




You state now that, "What i say is not hate speech. The truth is not hate speech", but in the other thread, you stated, "Fuck every single muslim walking this planet." To me, that reads as hate speech, not as "the truth". I based my statement of what you stated, clearly and simply.
Yes, THAT is hate speech. I am an asshole and say asshole things. I recognize that not 100% of all muslims are evil. I do feel that every single muslim on this planet is at least a pawn in the grand scheme of things. They may not realize that what they are participating in is evil, but the fact that it is evil is the claim i am trying to make.


Let me be clear, I am not telling you to ignore the crimes committed by terrorists, whether they are Muslim, Christian, Hindu, atheist, etc. I am pointing out a simple truth that the VAST majority of people of all religions live peacefully, and only extremists perform these heinous acts. They use religion as an excuse and a justification of their wrong-doings.
And among all religions, Islam has the greatest number if radical extremists and its not even comparable.


You point out extremists and act like all atrocities committed are due to their religious beliefs, yet we see Mexicans committing these same style of crimes at our borders, and you say nothing. I am not defending bloodshed, I am simply stating that you cannot make a blanket statement that all of the evil in the world is due to Islam, or that all that believe in Islam are evil. The statement from you, "Islam is filth", is hate speech, which you are entitled to make, but don't be surprised when you are called out on it.

Islam is filth. I recognize that not all people who have fallen victim to Islam are bad people. I did not say all evil in the world is due to Islam. Also, i have spoke out about mexican crimes. I am consistent in my beliefs across the board, i show no favoritism to any group. Here you go again trying to blend islamic terrorism into another topic. You cant deny the evil acts committed on behalf of islam so you bring up other acts to compare it to. I'm happy condemning all terrorism everywhere, but this topic is dedicated to Islam.





People commit evil acts when it benefits them, and try to justify it - sometimes with religion, sometimes with other arguments. Aren't you a person that believes in personal responsibility? A book cannot make a person do evil acts - they have to choose to do those acts themselves.

You're right, but in this case the benefit is 72 virgins in heaven when an islamic terrorist participates in the jihad against western culture.




Let me be clear - I am not attacking you, and I am not being hostile. I am simply pointing out issues with your statements. I have no dislike for you, or any problem with you, just that your statements are nothing more than opinions (which you are entitled to have) with no stated foundation. You claimed that you wanted a discourse on the surahs, but apparently, only if everyone agrees with you.
I'm happy with your scripture based retort, just not the personal attacks. Debate the scripture, not the person. If you feel i am misinterpreting the scripture, then perhaps that is the same reason the extremists are doing what they do. How is it so easy to connect their actions to the scripture?


I agree that you should visit a mosque, a Buddhist temple, and a Jewish synagogue as well. Perhaps you should develop more friends of different religions if you have an interest in learning about them. I predict that you will find that the majority of people have the same goals as most - to give their children a better life that they have had.
I dont deny that. I could probably have the same experience at a KKK rally. I'm sure there's at least one decent family who believes they are doing what is best for them and trying to give their children a better life. In the grand scheme of things that doesnt change the fact that theyre a pawn in a much bigger plot. The koran specifically says for them to deceive and get close to infidels, to infiltrate and dominate. Everything is about expansion and control. They take advantage of our tolerance and acceptance. Muslims can freely come to my country as they please and life happy safe lives. If i were to go to their country, i would not be afforded the same luxury. If i went to an islamic region to preach christianity and live peacefully, i would be murdered, my wife and kids raped and/or tortured. The koran specifically mentions sexual acts as punishments and rewards for crimes. It's no wonder that their women are so oppressed and violated.




Hatred from me? Are you on crack? I have no animosity towards anyone regarding Islam. I'm not Muslim, and don't aspire to be. I haven't made one hateful statement in any of these threads. You might want to look at your earlier statements. You are the one making blanket statements about a religion that you have shown that you know almost nothing about - based upon your own statements.

You seem unusually offended by a debate that you should have no attachment too. By your usual standard of civility, your approach in this thread is hostile. You made one post that was scripture based and then started derailing this thread with personal attacks. Regardless of what you think of me, my knowledge of or interest in islam or anything else, if you cant answer the scripture with scripture, then i am winning this debate.




I'm guessing that you missed that he shot both of them to death first, then cut off their heads and hands in an attempt to prevent identification. The article never states that this was a religion-based killing, and even goes so far as to say that he was not particularly religious. The only people that speculated on it were disconnected from the accused. How is this any different than a "normal" murder? Perhaps you have more information than this article?
Yeah, every crime such as this is always given the benefit of the doubt. A muslim cuts the heads and hands off of two christians, just a "normal" murder.





Extremism is an issue in the UK, and it might become an issue in the US in the future - I agree.
There are abut 2.6 innocent Muslims in the US today, would you have us condemn them all?
These vile acts are performed every day at the Mexico-Texas border, but I haven't heard you rant about that yet - only if there is some religious element that might be tied to it. In fact, murders happen all over the world every day, but you seem to be selective on these, and want to blame the religion, rather than the person that commits the crime.

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion..... i feel i'm one of the more "harsh" justice seeking individuals on this sight. I'm not out to convict any individuals for their religious belief, i just want the truth revealed. The political movement to endorse Islam is very troubling to me. I feel a lot of these innocent people are victims to disinformation and manipulation. It is my opinion that education almost always leads to a path away from religion.

[eg9]

Have read nothing prior to this post on the Quran or this thread.

To kill orhers(woman/children) for a religious belief is rediculous!

[eg9]

Again to kill thousands of "innocent" ...."people"......for your religion is ridiculous.

I can not understand for any god in any religious name to think the murder of thousands/hundreds of innocent people/humans is worth anyone's religious beliefs.

But to each their own.

The Middle East has always been violent...........

Genocidal..............

Agaisnt there own ..........

[eg9]

The Middle East will always be unsettled......no matter what the world does.

[.blank cd]

Regardless of what you think of me, my knowledge of or interest in islam or anything else, if you cant answer the scripture with scripture, then i am winning this debate.

You've already lost the debate when you resort to using logical fallacies to support your position. There's no longer a debate happening. You've already drawn your conclusion. And that's fine. We're just letting you know it's bigoted, regardless of what you believe bigoted is.

[Sinfix_15]

You've already lost the debate when you resort to using logical fallacies to support your position. There's no longer a debate happening. You've already drawn your conclusion. And that's fine. We're just letting you know it's bigoted, regardless of what you believe bigoted is.

Nope. The only thing i see so far is that you're all having a very hard time defending Islam. The logical fallacy being produced is your methods of defending Muslims who are not following the letter of the law laid forth by the Koran. Me speaking out against rape, murder, oppression and terrorism is not bigotry. By your definition of bigotry, every protester in the history of the world is a bigot.

Do you believe in Allah?

[.blank cd]

Nope. The only thing i see so far is that you're all having a very hard time defending Islam. The logical fallacy being produced is your methods of defending Muslims who are not following the letter of the law laid forth by the Koran. Me speaking out against rape, murder, oppression and terrorism is not bigotry. By your definition of bigotry, every protester in the history of the world is a bigot.I haven't defended a single Muslim yet.

What are you talking about? There's only one definition of bigotry.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry


Do you believe in Allah?

What??

[Sinfix_15]

I haven't defended a single Muslim yet.

What are you talking about? There's only one definition of bigotry.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry



What??

My thoughts on Islam are not based on prejudices. If anything, i am speaking out about the inherit bigotry of Islam. I'm not beheading, bombing, raping, murdering or oppressing anyone. Islam is not accepting of other religions and beliefs. The Koran endorses violent punishment for those who do not believe in Islam. That is bigotry.

Simple question, do you believe in Allah?

[Sinfix_15]

While this video is extremely disturbing, it maps out some scripture from the Koran and illustrates their application.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=icNTs30ZRvQ

[David88vert]

You started the rock throwing. Also, the primary argument being presented is you and blank pretending like islamic extremism doesnt exist or are trying to minimize it. Consider the video evidence. My argument is that Islam is about control and their goal is world domination. You disagree... so i submit evidence in the form of a video.

I didn't throw any rocks. I never pretended that Islamic extremism doesn't exist. I am not trying to minimize those acts. I never made any such statement that Islam is not about world domination. You just flat out lied in your whole statement above.



I would prefer to talk just about the scriptures.... but you dont want to do that, you're focusing on your efforts on me and/or my credibility. You cant produce a scripture that denies anything i suggest, you simply attack my interpretation of it or take the route of denial.

If you wanted to just talk about the scriptures, they you should have made your points while quoting them - but don't get upset when you get checked on your statements and experience. If your interpretation is incorrect, it will get pointed out. If you look back in the thread, I am the only one presenting facts to support my statements - you are the one in denial of the truth.

[Sinfix_15]

I didn't throw any rocks. I never pretended that Islamic extremism doesn't exist. I am not trying to minimize those acts. I never made any such statement that Islam is not about world domination. You just flat out lied in your whole statement above.



If you wanted to just talk about the scriptures, they you should have made your points while quoting them - but don't get upset when you get checked on your statements and experience. If your interpretation is incorrect, it will get pointed out. If you look back in the thread, I am the only one presenting facts to support my statements - you are the one in denial of the truth.

What truth am i unaware of?

[Sinfix_15]

Pictures of people traveling to protest Islam on 9/11...... it would appear i am not alone in my views.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTrkYNrCcAEbVSF.jpg:large

http://www.bizpacreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/10018_578199468909570_624809424_n-300x220.jpg

[David88vert]

No problem. You do the same. Quit speaking for anyone you know that is a muslim and let them speak for themselves. Your experience is no more credible than my own. You cant claim your experience as evidence and then discredit mine.

I made statements on my own experiences with dealing with Muslims - in business and in personal life, and from being around them while they were involved in religious activities. You made statements based upon what former Muslims told you. I didn't speak about what others told me, but from real world interaction. If you can't see the difference, then this discussion is hopeless, as you will never get it.





Yes i do. Just because a muslim hasnt beheaded someone in my living room doesnt mean that i do not see it happening. Just because they havnt bombed my neighborhood does not mean that they havnt bombed my country. If i was one of those people who got their legs blown off in boston would my opinion of muslims be valid then??? Do i have to wait to become a victim before speaking out?

Like I said before, you have no personal experience (that you have stated up to now) with Muslims who are active in their faith. Reading about it in the paper and watching it on tv is not personal experience. If you believe that is personal experience, this topic is already over, as you are unable to comprehend the basics.




Sure, show me where the british handbook instructs them to attack americans. ?

War of 1812 - you might have heard of it. Their war guidelines are quite a bit more recent than the Qur'an.





Yes, THAT is hate speech. I am an asshole and say asshole things. I recognize that not 100% of all muslims are evil. I do feel that every single muslim on this planet is at least a pawn in the grand scheme of things. They may not realize that what they are participating in is evil, but the fact that it is evil is the claim i am trying to make.


And you have every right to your opinion. I have no disagreement with you having that opinion.



And among all religions, Islam has the greatest number if radical extremists and its not even comparable.

While there is no publication of statistics that I am aware of, I would agree that at this point in time, the appearance is that more terrorists/radicals are using the Islamic religion as justification for their actions.





Islam is filth. I recognize that not all people who have fallen victim to Islam are bad people. I did not say all evil in the world is due to Islam. Also, i have spoke out about mexican crimes. I am consistent in my beliefs across the board, i show no favoritism to any group. Here you go again trying to blend islamic terrorism into another topic. You cant deny the evil acts committed on behalf of islam so you bring up other acts to compare it to. I'm happy condemning all terrorism everywhere, but this topic is dedicated to Islam.

The statement, "Islam is filth.", is your opinion, and is expressly the type of hate speech that you claimed would not be part of this thread.

The reason that I bought up the current Mexican drug war is that it is a civil war that has its combatants using the exact same execution tactics (such as beheading), is next door to the US (literally), and its combatants do not use the excuse of religion for their actions. You have attempted to paint the Qur'an as the instruction guide for all of these style atrocities.





You're right, but in this case the benefit is 72 virgins in heaven when an islamic terrorist participates in the jihad against western culture.

It's not "jihad against western culture". Go get your surah for discussion, and we can have that one.





I'm happy with your scripture based retort, just not the personal attacks. Debate the scripture, not the person. If you feel i am misinterpreting the scripture, then perhaps that is the same reason the extremists are doing what they do. How is it so easy to connect their actions to the scripture?

Sources matter, when opinion is being stated - its not attacks, it's discovering the basis/foundation for the opinion. With no foundation of experience, why would the opinion be of value? Would you trust the opinion of your real estate agent on which pistons to choose for your boosted SR20, if he never even built an engine?

If you can keep your discussion to the scriptures, you should know by now, that I will do the same.



I dont deny that. I could probably have the same experience at a KKK rally. I'm sure there's at least one decent family who believes they are doing what is best for them and trying to give their children a better life. In the grand scheme of things that doesnt change the fact that theyre a pawn in a much bigger plot. The koran specifically says for them to deceive and get close to infidels, to infiltrate and dominate. Everything is about expansion and control. They take advantage of our tolerance and acceptance. Muslims can freely come to my country as they please and life happy safe lives. If i were to go to their country, i would not be afforded the same luxury. If i went to an islamic region to preach christianity and live peacefully, i would be murdered, my wife and kids raped and/or tortured. The koran specifically mentions sexual acts as punishments and rewards for crimes. It's no wonder that their women are so oppressed and violated.

See, there you go again, trying to pretend that there is one family out of the multitudes that is not in on the "plot". Apparently, there are about 2.6 million not "in on the plot" - just in the US. Work with someone daily, be around their family, their friends, their religious leaders for a decade, and you will know if they are "deceiving and infiltrating". If they are leading "happy and safe lives", isn't that what you want?

I could travel to Lahore with no worries.

And, yes, the Qur'an does make mention of taking the women of defeated enemies. Guess what - most ancient cultures did that, and it still happens in modern conflicts. Doesn't make it right, and I'm not defending it - just recognize reality and take off the rose-colored glasses. People choose to be evil, regardless of religious beliefs.





You seem unusually offended by a debate that you should have no attachment too. By your usual standard of civility, your approach in this thread is hostile. You made one post that was scripture based and then started derailing this thread with personal attacks. Regardless of what you think of me, my knowledge of or interest in islam or anything else, if you cant answer the scripture with scripture, then i am winning this debate.



I am not offended. I am not offended. I am not offended. Get it yet?
I don't have an attachment to this topic any more than any other - and probably less on this one. There is no emotion here from me.
I am being just as civil as I always am. Perhaps you just aren't used to me addressing your statements the very same way that I address blanks.
I addressed what you had - your opinion. You didn't come in with facts.
If you want to discuss scripture, then stay on that topic. As soon as you went off into opinion, you changed the discussion from what you stated originally that it would be.
Winning? LOL. You have to have something other than conjecture when you want to debate.



Yeah, every crime such as this is always given the benefit of the doubt. A muslim cuts the heads and hands off of two christians, just a "normal" murder.


I'm guessing that you didn't read the article at all, or all of my previous post, as it appears that you missed that he wasn't known to be religious, and the only people even offering a religious motive are those who have never met him. The source of the article didn't make you a little concerned either?




I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion..... i feel i'm one of the more "harsh" justice seeking individuals on this sight. I'm not out to convict any individuals for their religious belief, i just want the truth revealed. The political movement to endorse Islam is very troubling to me. I feel a lot of these innocent people are victims to disinformation and manipulation. It is my opinion that education almost always leads to a path away from religion.

You are entitled to your opinion. I have no problem with you believing whatever you want to believe.

Personal opinion - I do not believe that there should be an political movement to endorse any religion, nor a political movement to suppress or work against any religion, but I do recognize that this is not an option in the political system that we have here.
I do not agree that education always leads to a path away from religion.

[David88vert]

What truth am i unaware of?

That the vast majority of Muslims are not radical extremists/terrorists and only want to live normal, peaceful lives, and have no intention to try to control or deceive you. They are not secretly plotting to kill you, the non-believer.

[David88vert]

Pictures of people traveling to protest Islam on 9/11...... it would appear i am not alone in my views.


Of course you aren't alone in your views. No one ever is, no matter what topic. There were tons of people that were still for slavery in 1861 - enough to have a civil war.
Every single one of those people protesting have the right to their opinions - that is one of the things that makes America such a great country.

[Sinfix_15]

I made statements on my own experiences with dealing with Muslims - in business and in personal life, and from being around them while they were involved in religious activities. You made statements based upon what former Muslims told you. I didn't speak about what others told me, but from real world interaction. If you can't see the difference, then this discussion is hopeless, as you will never get it.

I fail to see how my experience is different from yours. The individual who was a muslim for 30+ years i work with and speak to daily, ive also attended his church and have a lot of conversations regarding religion. I also referenced two brothers i am friends with who are active muslims. They themselves are not extreme, but their parents are. His father is very abusive and dominant. The females in his house are submissive. The two brothers are embarrassed by their actions, but dont speak out to keep the peace. No, i dont see the difference in my sample of life compared to your sample of life.






Like I said before, you have no personal experience (that you have stated up to now) with Muslims who are active in their faith. Reading about it in the paper and watching it on tv is not personal experience. If you believe that is personal experience, this topic is already over, as you are unable to comprehend the basics.
Then you also have no personal experience.


While there is no publication of statistics that I am aware of, I would agree that at this point in time, the appearance is that more terrorists/radicals are using the Islamic religion as justification for their actions.

And you have no thoughts are how easy it is to connect these actions to scripture?






The statement, "Islam is filth.", is your opinion, and is expressly the type of hate speech that you claimed would not be part of this thread.

Islam is filth. How is this hate speech? Rape is filth, murder is filth... slavery is filth. This should not offend you unless you are a rapist, murder or slave owner. The crimes of Islam should not be ignored. Peaceful citizens who practice Islam are at least ignorant. There's some teachings from the bible that i follow, but i would never claim christianity as a whole because i cannot accept the crimes or lies of that religion. You cant cherry pick what you want from a religion without accepting the entirety of it. Islam is responsible for a lot of evil in this world. The casual observers of Islam condone these actions even if they dont participate in them.


The reason that I bought up the current Mexican drug war is that it is a civil war that has its combatants using the exact same execution tactics (such as beheading), is next door to the US (literally), and its combatants do not use the excuse of religion for their actions. You have attempted to paint the Qur'an as the instruction guide for all of these style atrocities.

It doesnt stand alone as an instruction guide. It is one of many instruction guides for evil.



And, yes, the Qur'an does make mention of taking the women of defeated enemies. Guess what - most ancient cultures did that, and it still happens in modern conflicts. Doesn't make it right, and I'm not defending it - just recognize reality and take off the rose-colored glasses. People choose to be evil, regardless of religious beliefs.

Its way more than that...... this is another example of you minimizing it. Muslims allow child rape, child slavery, they cut the clitoris off young girls, they beat and abuse women sexually, disfigure them, oppress them............. women are pets according to Islam. They have the rights of a common dog.







I am not offended. I am not offended. I am not offended. Get it yet?
I don't have an attachment to this topic any more than any other - and probably less on this one. There is no emotion here from me.
I am being just as civil as I always am. Perhaps you just aren't used to me addressing your statements the very same way that I address blanks.
I addressed what you had - your opinion. You didn't come in with facts.
If you want to discuss scripture, then stay on that topic. As soon as you went off into opinion, you changed the discussion from what you stated originally that it would be.
Winning? LOL. You have to have something other than conjecture when you want to debate.

Nothing i am saying is opinion. Every crime i accuse has multitudes of video evidence. The evidence against Islam is abundant. Watch any of the videos ive posted and then offer an explanation for those actions. I guess you're going to keep falling back on separating the extremist from what you view as "normal" muslims. The text itself is extreme.

[Sinfix_15]

Of course you aren't alone in your views. No one ever is, no matter what topic. There were tons of people that were still for slavery in 1861 - enough to have a civil war.
Every single one of those people protesting have the right to their opinions - that is one of the things that makes America such a great country.

Yep. You're right. Now if only we had a leader as brave as Lincoln to go rescue all of the oppressed women from the slavery of Islam.

[Sinfix_15]

"About sixty-one percent of the contents of the Koran are found to speak ill of the unbelievers or call for their violent conquest; at best only 2.6 percent of the verses of the Koran are noted to show goodwill toward humanity. About seventy-five percent of Muhammad's biography (Sira) consists of jihad waged on unbelievers."

Dr. Moorthy Muthuswamy

Moorthy Muthuswamy was born and brought up in India where he was exposed to political Islam and jihad. His journey as a scientist began in 1979 when he enrolled in Birla Institute of Technology and Science, Pilani (India) to pursue a graduate degree in physics.

Even well before the massive flow of funds from the likes of Saudi Arabia, certain attributes of Islam, the author noticed growing up, was driving fellow Indian Muslims into backwardness and violent radicalism. Fiery and hateful political speeches, a main course of the Friday mosque sermons in India have had a history of instigating rioting by Muslim mobs, and consequently, led to countless property damages and the loss of lives.

He came to America in 1984 and went on to receive a doctorate in nuclear physics at Stony Brook University, New York. The author has published well over twenty peer-reviewed papers in nuclear and radiation physics and has held faculty positions in leading American academic institutions. In 1998, as the primary author, Dr. Muthuswamy was the first to show that radiation field aperture optimization technique can be an alternative to the then widely used and yet an inefficient technique known as beamlet-based optimization of radiotherapy beams. The technique proposed by the author has evolved to become a basis of modern implementation of Intensity Modulated Radiation Therapy (IMRT).

Increasingly concerned about the escalating Islamic threat to his native India, in the 1990s, Dr. Muthuswamy started to research this topic. Since 1998, he has extensively published on various aspects of political Islam.

Early on, the author observed a startling phenomenon: in every Muslim-majority region of South Asia, since 1947, non-Muslim minority populations had been systematically decimated through deliberate processes, while in India, Muslims grew to become a significant minority. It didn't matter that the Muslims and the non-Muslims alike, shared culture, ethnicity, language, cuisine, and history, in these regions. This hitherto unknown data suggests that India faces an existential threat from political dynamics driven by Islam and that such a dynamics is a modern manifestation of what is commonly described in history texts as "Islamic Conquest."

In his book Defeating Political Islam, the author gives a fascinating narrative of the multi-faceted process now underway to conquer India itself for Islam.

Like most Americans the author too was taken aback by the audacity of the dastardly 9/11 attacks, although not surprised by the intent. These attacks and the subsequent American response made it clear to the author that his adopted country too needs to ramp-up its know-how of the new threat.

The intellectual challenge of solving what is clearly an existential problem, too, has continued to drive his research -- and led to this book. Specifically, the physicist-author designed this book in order to help set forth processes that comprehensively neutralize the radical Islamic threat.

The author resides in America.


Here you go blank...... scientist.... since i know how much you value their studies.

[David88vert]

I fail to see how my experience is different from yours. The individual who was a muslim for 30+ years i work with and speak to daily, ive also attended his church and have a lot of conversations regarding religion. I also referenced two brothers i am friends with who are active muslims. They themselves are not extreme, but their parents are. His father is very abusive and dominant. The females in his house are submissive. The two brothers are embarrassed by their actions, but dont speak out to keep the peace. No, i dont see the difference in my sample of life compared to your sample of life.

Then you also have no personal experience.

Your opinion is based upon what others have told you, not on what you have experienced first-hand. I don't see why you cannot understand that very basic concept. By your own words, your opinion is based upon what the media presents you (which is guaranteed to be mostly bad news, as that is what sells), and what people who already are anti-Islam are telling you about it. You haven't gone to weddings, mosques (based on your previous statements - although you state above that he is an active Muslim and you have gone to his church - that conflicts with your earlier statements), been involved in their culture yourself. It's no different that if you live in the 1840's and the media told you that slavery was good, and that a slave told you that life wasn't that bad. If you never stayed in the slave houses, went out to the fields, etc, you would have no personal experience, and would probably think that slaves had a decent life.

In my case, I have been to weddings, I have been to cultural events, I have been involved in religious discussions, I have been and had dinner with Muslim families, I have celebrated holidays with them, etc. Daily submersion into their culture is personal experience.

Like I said, if you can't see the difference, then this topic is pretty much over.




And you have no thoughts are how easy it is to connect these actions to scripture?

I have plenty of thoughts.
Here is where you seem to lose it. You think that you can pop out a scripture, and then someone else should pop out a conflicting scripture. You seem to think that this is the same as a discussion about science, where there are competing facts that can be discussed.
Religion is not science. It is based upon faith, and thus, opinion. Thinking that the Qur'an will have conflicting verses already shows that you need to study it more before starting this thread, if you wish to have a worthwhile discussion. Perhaps an atheism thread would be more suited to your current knowledge?





Islam is filth. How is this hate speech? Rape is filth, murder is filth... slavery is filth. This should not offend you unless you are a rapist, murder or slave owner. The crimes of Islam should not be ignored. Peaceful citizens who practice Islam are at least ignorant. There's some teachings from the bible that i follow, but i would never claim christianity as a whole because i cannot accept the crimes or lies of that religion. You cant cherry pick what you want from a religion without accepting the entirety of it. Islam is responsible for a lot of evil in this world. The casual observers of Islam condone these actions even if they dont participate in them.

I am not offended by your posts. I don't know how many times I have to type that so that it sinks into your head.

"The crimes of Islam should not be ignored." - So, now you believe that a book/religion is the source of crime, and not an individual. A person cannot choose what to do for themselves, and shouldn't be help personally accountable for their own actions? Yet, when a gun is involved, the crime was committed by the individual. This argument makes you seem like you are pulling a "John Kerry", which I do not think suits you.

"Peaceful citizens who practice Islam are at least ignorant." - So, now you think that all 2.6 million Muslims are stupid. Nice....

"Islam is responsible for a lot of evil in this world." - The people that commit the crimes are not responsible for their actions, it's the book! Now substitute the work "Handgun" for "Islam" and repeat your statement. Doesn't sound so good the second time around, does it?

"The casual observers of Islam condone these actions even if they dont participate in them." - So, you believe all Muslims condone rape, murder, and child abuse automatically? Are you saying that your two Muslim friends condone these crimes? If so, then by associating with them, you condone these crimes as well, do you not?



It doesnt stand alone as an instruction guide. It is one of many instruction guides for evil.

That is your opinion. Exactly what scripture are you thinking should be brought forward to "counter" this claim by you?
This is an example of why this thread is nothing more than a smear campaign against those that follow a religion that you do not like.





Its way more than that...... this is another example of you minimizing it. Muslims allow child rape, child slavery, they cut the clitoris off young girls, they beat and abuse women sexually, disfigure them, oppress them............. women are pets according to Islam. They have the rights of a common dog.

And, based upon your previous statements, you talk to people that condone this activity on a daily basis. Have you told them that this is how you feel?

We can discuss those surahs that relate to women if you like. If you can keep the discussion to the surahs, and not go off onto tangents, then you might be surprised at how the discourse would proceed.




Nothing i am saying is opinion. Every crime i accuse has multitudes of video evidence. The evidence against Islam is abundant. Watch any of the videos ive posted and then offer an explanation for those actions. I guess you're going to keep falling back on separating the extremist from what you view as "normal" muslims. The text itself is extreme.

So, the acts of a few radicals condemns all that follow a religion to being either idiots or criminals?
By that line of reasoning, then you, as an atheist, are either an idiot of criminal as well.
Alfred Kinsey, Napoleon Bonaparte, Than Shwe, Jeffrey Dahmer, Benito Mussolini, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin - all atheists.
Just taking one of them - Stalin ordered purges within the Soviet Union of any person deemed to be an enemy of the state (i.e. capitalists, theists). In total, estimates of the total number murdered under Stalin’s reign, range from 10 million to 60 million. His government promoted atheism with mass propaganda in school, and held a terror campaign against the religious. He crushed the Russian Orthodox Church, leveling thousands of churches and shooting more than 100,000 priests, monks and nuns between 1937 and 1938.

Of course, you wouldn't blame atheism for those deaths - you would blame the man who ordered the deaths.

Jeffrey Dahmer: "If a person doesn’t think there is a God to be accountable to, then—then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That’s how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we, when we died, you know, that was it, there is nothing…" [An interview with Stone Phillips, Dateline NBC, Nov. 29, 1994].

No, atheism did not make him do it, and the Qur'an doesn't make people kill either.

[David88vert]

Yep. You're right. Now if only we had a leader as brave as Lincoln to go rescue all of the oppressed women from the slavery of Islam.

You can be that guy.

[Sinfix_15]

I've trumped your every argument and you continue to say the same things over and over about me personally.

I just posted part of a study done by a dr and scientist who lived under the oppression of Islam, who has more experience with it than 100 of you combined. Apply your argument of "you dont know any better" to that.

You entire argument has two parts to it. Deflecting the conversation away from Islam and/or discrediting me personally.



yes. The 2.6 million people who practice Islam are ignorant of all of the evil caused by their religion.

Atheist is a label others created. I prefer to just be called logical. It's not a religion. Nothing persuades me. There's no book. There's no prayer. There's no influence.

[David88vert]

"About sixty-one percent of the contents of the Koran are found to speak ill of the unbelievers or call for their violent conquest; at best only 2.6 percent of the verses of the Koran are noted to show goodwill toward humanity. About seventy-five percent of Muhammad's biography (Sira) consists of jihad waged on unbelievers."


I'm going to separate this statement from the background of the author to focus on the important part.

The part that struck me as incorrect right off the bat was, "About seventy-five percent of Muhammad's biography (Sira) consists of jihad waged on unbelievers."

There are 164 verses in the Koran that deal specifically with jihad, not including those where Mohammed voiced his opinion of those that choose not to go on jihad, the rewards form heaven for jihadists (not sure if that is really a word), or where it is used as a generic word for "victory".

The statement claims that 75% of all verses in the Koran are about jihad, but there are more than 219 verses in the Koran.

Here are the 164 Jihad Verses: K 002:178-179, 190-191, 193-194, 216-218, 244; 003:121-126, 140-143, 146, 152-158, 165-167,169, 172-173, 195; 004:071-072, 074-077, 084, 089-091, 094-095,100-104; 005:033, 035, 082; 008:001, 005, 007, 009-010, 012, 015-017, 039-048,057-060, 065-075; 009:005, 012-014, 016, 019-020, 024-026, 029,036, 038-039, 041, 044, 052, 073, 081, 083,086, 088, 092, 111, 120, 122-123; 016:110; 022:039, 058, 078; 024:053, 055; 025:052; 029:006, 069; 033:015, 018, 020, 023, 025-027, 050; 042:039; 047:004, 020, 035; 048:015-024; 049:015; 059:002, 005-008, 014; 060:009; 061:004, 011, 013; 063:004; 064:014; 066:009; 073:020; 076:008

Do you have a different list that shows 75% of the Koran?

BTW - Your doctor isn't the one that came up with the figures. He is just repeating the conclusions of Bill Warner - a well-known crusader against Islam (Citizen Warrior Heroes: Bill Warner (http://citizenwarriors.com/2008/07/bill-warner.html)).

I'm going to throw you a bone. If you really want to make a point about how Islam deals with no-believers, you need to look at the Qur'an in chronological order. That means that Surah Al-Taubah (Chapter 9) is the next-to-last revelation of Allah to Mohammed - hint, hint. Surah Al-Nasar is the last one, but it is mostly empty verses in regards to non-believers. The Qur'an is arranged from longest to shortest in chapters, not in chronological order, and it has a lot of repetition. Later revelations overwrite earlier ones.

Now, I'll throw out a verse for you to ponder, since you said that you have active Muslim friends, but that all of the Muslims are looking to deceive non-believers.
"Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrong-doers." - Qur'an 5:51

[David88vert]

I've trumped your every argument and you continue to say the same things over and over about me personally.

I just posted part of a study done by a dr and scientist who lived under the oppression of Islam, who has more experience with it than 100 of you combined. Apply your argument of "you dont know any better" to that.

You entire argument has two parts to it. Deflecting the conversation away from Islam and/or discrediting me personally.

I just pointed out the facts about your post about the doctor of physics.
You posted one statement and then some background on him - all stuff that you copied from somewhere without looking into it deeper.

You haven't trumped anything. You are just being delusional if you think that.

You are pulling a blank - ignoring what you don't like.
I don't need to discredit you, you are doing that to yourself, unfortunately.

Let me be clear - I don't care if you hate Islam or not. That's your choice completely.

[Sinfix_15]

I'm going to separate this statement from the background of the author to focus on the important part.

The part that struck me as incorrect right off the bat was, "About seventy-five percent of Muhammad's biography (Sira) consists of jihad waged on unbelievers."

There are 164 verses in the Koran that deal specifically with jihad, not including those where Mohammed voiced his opinion of those that choose not to go on jihad, the rewards form heaven for jihadists (not sure if that is really a word), or where it is used as a generic word for "victory".

The statement claims that 75% of all verses in the Koran are about jihad, but there are more than 219 verses in the Koran.

Here are the 164 Jihad Verses: K 002:178-179, 190-191, 193-194, 216-218, 244; 003:121-126, 140-143, 146, 152-158, 165-167,169, 172-173, 195; 004:071-072, 074-077, 084, 089-091, 094-095,100-104; 005:033, 035, 082; 008:001, 005, 007, 009-010, 012, 015-017, 039-048,057-060, 065-075; 009:005, 012-014, 016, 019-020, 024-026, 029,036, 038-039, 041, 044, 052, 073, 081, 083,086, 088, 092, 111, 120, 122-123; 016:110; 022:039, 058, 078; 024:053, 055; 025:052; 029:006, 069; 033:015, 018, 020, 023, 025-027, 050; 042:039; 047:004, 020, 035; 048:015-024; 049:015; 059:002, 005-008, 014; 060:009; 061:004, 011, 013; 063:004; 064:014; 066:009; 073:020; 076:008

Do you have a different list that shows 75% of the Koran?

BTW - Your doctor isn't the one that came up with the figures. He is just repeating the conclusions of Bill Warner - a well-known crusader against Islam (Citizen Warrior Heroes: Bill Warner (http://citizenwarriors.com/2008/07/bill-warner.html)).

I'm going to throw you a bone. If you really want to make a point about how Islam deals with no-believers, you need to look at the Qur'an in chronological order. That means that Surah Al-Taubah (Chapter 9) is the next-to-last revelation of Allah to Mohammed - hint, hint. Surah Al-Nasar is the last one, but it is mostly empty verses in regards to non-believers. The Qur'an is arranged from longest to shortest in chapters, not in chronological order, and it has a lot of repetition. Later revelations overwrite earlier ones.

Now, I'll throw out a verse for you to ponder, since you said that you have active Muslim friends, but that all of the Muslims are looking to deceive non-believers.
"Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrong-doers." - Qur'an 5:51

So you think the Dr, Scientist and author of the book below, who lived under the oppression of Islam himself, is simply quoting someone else and not offering his own opinion. Now you're attempting to discredit someone else, who has infinitely more experience with Islam than you do.

http://www.moorthymuthuswamy.com/image/Defeating%20Political%20Islam%20cover.jpg

[David88vert]

So you think the Dr, Scientist and author of the book below, who lived under the oppression of Islam himself, is simply quoting someone else and not offering his own opinion. Now you're attempting to discredit someone else, who has infinitely more experience with Islam than you do.


No, that is not what I am saying.
I am saying that his figure of 2.6% that "bodes well for the non-believer" was not a calculation that he personally made. He based it upon the calculation of Bill Warner.
I am not saying that it is not his own opinion, as it very well could be that as well. I am not "discrediting him" either - I am simply clarifying fact.
BTW - another fact: The doctor moved to the US in 1984, in case you missed that. I hope that Islam wasn't oppressing him in the US.

His 2.6% came from "Political Islam" - Political Islam // Articles // The "Good" in the Koran (http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/the-good-in-the-koran/)

Here is more:
"Bill Warner wanted to know exactly how many verses in the Qur'an are positive for non-Muslims, so he counted them. The answer is 245. That's pretty good. That adds up to 4,018 words in the Qur'an, and comprises 2.6 percent of the total Qur'anic text. " - But There Are Peaceful Passages in the Quran Too - WikiIslam (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/But_There_Are_Peaceful_Passages_in_the_Quran_Too)

Now, you were just saying that I was throwing rocks, but yet, you ignored my facts, and only attacked me with unfounded attacks - just like you did earlier in the thread.

[Sinfix_15]

"Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrong-doers." - Qur'an 5:51

3:28
YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.


Your verse warns of becoming friends with an unbeliever. This is the typical fence that religion puts around people. It cautions them that anything on the outside of what they believe, is evil. "guard yourselves from them". Remember, "Allah is the best of deceivers"

Lying and cheating in the Arab world is not really a moral matter but a method of safeguarding honor and status, avoiding shame, and at all times exploiting possibilities, for those with the wits for it, deftly and expeditiously to convert shame into honor on their own account and vice versa for their opponents. If honor so demands, lies and cheating may become absolute imperatives.” [David Pryce-Jones, “The Closed Circle” An interpretation of the Arabs, p4]

[Sinfix_15]

No, that is not what I am saying.
I am saying that his figure of 2.6% that "bodes well for the non-believer" was not a calculation that he personally made. He based it upon the calculation of Bill Warner.
I am not saying that it is not his own opinion, as it very well could be that as well. I am not "discrediting him" either - I am simply clarifying fact.
BTW - another fact: The doctor moved to the US in 1984, in case you missed that. I hope that Islam wasn't oppressing him in the US.

His 2.6% came from "Political Islam" - Political Islam // Articles // The "Good" in the Koran (http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/the-good-in-the-koran/)

Here is more:
"Bill Warner wanted to know exactly how many verses in the Qur'an are positive for non-Muslims, so he counted them. The answer is 245. That's pretty good. That adds up to 4,018 words in the Qur'an, and comprises 2.6 percent of the total Qur'anic text. " - But There Are Peaceful Passages in the Quran Too - WikiIslam (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/But_There_Are_Peaceful_Passages_in_the_Quran_Too)

Now, you were just saying that I was throwing rocks, but yet, you ignored my facts, and only attacked me with unfounded attacks - just like you did earlier in the thread.

Are you disputing either of their findings? I'm missing a point to be made other than minimizing their opinions.

[David88vert]

"Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrong-doers." - Qur'an 5:51

3:28
YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.


Your verse warns of becoming friends with an unbeliever. This is the typical fence that religion puts around people. It cautions them that anything on the outside of what they believe, is evil. "guard yourselves from them". Remember, "Allah is the best of deceivers"

Lying and cheating in the Arab world is not really a moral matter but a method of safeguarding honor and status, avoiding shame, and at all times exploiting possibilities, for those with the wits for it, deftly and expeditiously to convert shame into honor on their own account and vice versa for their opponents. If honor so demands, lies and cheating may become absolute imperatives.” [David Pryce-Jones, “The Closed Circle” An interpretation of the Arabs, p4]

Like I stated previously, the earlier writings are overwritten by the later writing. The Qur'an is not in chronological order. The instructions give in Al-i-Imran (chapter 3) occurred long before Al-Maeda (chapter 5). Al-Maeda is one of the last books and in regarded as being on of the last sets of instructions revealed by Allah to Mohammed. I know that it is confusing, and I am not attacking you with this, just trying to give you the insight on how to discuss it.

I agree that some religious instructions attempt to "put fences around believers".

The statement that you bring up, "Allah is the best of deceivers" is actually a good one. Allah is the God of Abraham, which the Christians and Jews believe in as well, yet they do not believe that he can lie or deceive. In this case, Islam takes a very different view of God than the Christians or Jews do - and that is an excellent theological discussion to have.

As for you David Pryce-Jones quote, I have never lived in an Arab country, and do not know the customs practiced there. I know that I do not see that in the ones that I have met here, but then again, they have lived here for quite a while and have adapted to American customs.

[David88vert]

Are you disputing either of their findings? I'm missing a point to be made other than minimizing their opinions.

Again, I am not "minimizing their opinions". This is something that you keep claiming with no basis.

I am disputing their math. "About seventy-five percent of Muhammad's biography (Sira) consists of jihad waged on unbelievers." That's the quote that you posted from that doctor.

There are 164 verses in the Koran that deal specifically with jihad, not including those where Mohammed voiced his opinion of those that choose not to go on jihad, the rewards form heaven for jihadists (not sure if that is really a word), or where it is used as a generic word for "victory".

The statement claims that 75% of all verses in the Koran are about jihad, which means that the math would show you that only 219 verses would exist in the entire Koran. There are chapters with more verses than that.

Here are the 164 Jihad Verses: K 002:178-179, 190-191, 193-194, 216-218, 244; 003:121-126, 140-143, 146, 152-158, 165-167,169, 172-173, 195; 004:071-072, 074-077, 084, 089-091, 094-095,100-104; 005:033, 035, 082; 008:001, 005, 007, 009-010, 012, 015-017, 039-048,057-060, 065-075; 009:005, 012-014, 016, 019-020, 024-026, 029,036, 038-039, 041, 044, 052, 073, 081, 083,086, 088, 092, 111, 120, 122-123; 016:110; 022:039, 058, 078; 024:053, 055; 025:052; 029:006, 069; 033:015, 018, 020, 023, 025-027, 050; 042:039; 047:004, 020, 035; 048:015-024; 049:015; 059:002, 005-008, 014; 060:009; 061:004, 011, 013; 063:004; 064:014; 066:009; 073:020; 076:008

Do you have a different list of jihad verses that shows 75% of the Koran? That will be a very long list - since the Qur'an is about 6236 verses long, they are claiming that about 4677 are about jihad. Where are these extra 4500 verses about jihad?

If I am missing something, let me know. I just don't see those extra verses.

[David88vert]

Since you wanted to make a case that Islam is violent, let's put it in perspective with some facts.

In the current Mexican drug war, more than 60,00 have been killed, with more than 5,000 more missing. Most of this has happened in Mexico, but CNN reported that there were several related killings in Alabama, Texas, and Georgia. Pretty close to home.

Meanwhile, the absolute highest number that I could find was 11,267 deaths at the hands of Muslims extremists - worldwide for 2012. This was from the Blaze, so I figure that you might accept that. Every other report quotes MUCH lower numbers.

Religion (Islamic or other) doesn't seem to tip the scales to one over the other. The desire for more money and power seem to have a lot of influence on people's actions though.

As for the number of terrorist that commit attacks being predominately Muslim, the FBI says "not so". You might need to look out for Jewish terrorists more than Muslims.
Non-Muslims Carried Out More than 90% of All Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Soil | Washington's Blog (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/05/muslims-only-carried-out-2-5-percent-of-terrorist-attacks-on-u-s-soil-between-1970-and-2012.html)


Now, to be perfectly clear, I am not stating that "Islam is a religion of peace". I don't want you to try to put words in my mouth.

[Sinfix_15]

Again, I am not "minimizing their opinions". This is something that you keep claiming with no basis.

I am disputing their math. "About seventy-five percent of Muhammad's biography (Sira) consists of jihad waged on unbelievers." That's the quote that you posted from that doctor.

There are 164 verses in the Koran that deal specifically with jihad, not including those where Mohammed voiced his opinion of those that choose not to go on jihad, the rewards form heaven for jihadists (not sure if that is really a word), or where it is used as a generic word for "victory".

The statement claims that 75% of all verses in the Koran are about jihad, which means that the math would show you that only 219 verses would exist in the entire Koran. There are chapters with more verses than that.

Here are the 164 Jihad Verses: K 002:178-179, 190-191, 193-194, 216-218, 244; 003:121-126, 140-143, 146, 152-158, 165-167,169, 172-173, 195; 004:071-072, 074-077, 084, 089-091, 094-095,100-104; 005:033, 035, 082; 008:001, 005, 007, 009-010, 012, 015-017, 039-048,057-060, 065-075; 009:005, 012-014, 016, 019-020, 024-026, 029,036, 038-039, 041, 044, 052, 073, 081, 083,086, 088, 092, 111, 120, 122-123; 016:110; 022:039, 058, 078; 024:053, 055; 025:052; 029:006, 069; 033:015, 018, 020, 023, 025-027, 050; 042:039; 047:004, 020, 035; 048:015-024; 049:015; 059:002, 005-008, 014; 060:009; 061:004, 011, 013; 063:004; 064:014; 066:009; 073:020; 076:008

Do you have a different list of jihad verses that shows 75% of the Koran? That will be a very long list - since the Qur'an is about 6236 verses long, they are claiming that about 4677 are about jihad. Where are these extra 4500 verses about jihad?

If I am missing something, let me know. I just don't see those extra verses.

The order of events as they happened in the Koran is not something i know, so information regarding how to read it is helpful. The wording of the accusation is

75% of Mohammad's biography, the Sira, was about Jihad. 61% of the Koran speaks ill of unbelievers.

They didnt say "75% of the Koran is about Jihad".

[David88vert]

The order of events as they happened in the Koran is not something i know, so information regarding how to read it is helpful. The wording of the accusation is

75% of Mohammad's biography, the Sira, was about Jihad. 61% of the Koran speaks ill of unbelievers.

They didnt say "75% of the Koran is about Jihad".

Here is a page that you will find quite useful:
Chronological Order of the Qur'an - WikiIslam (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Chronological_Order_of_the_Qur'an)

Like I mentioned previously, the last chapters written are the one that you want to target. Surah At-Taubah is the one that you will probably be most interested in, as it makes the best foundation for your case with 129 verses that have a lot to say about non-believers.


A biography about him is hardly the same as the Koran - that's what I was missing. That's something being written long after he is dead, and not relevant to the discussion topic of this thread then. I haven't read the Surrah, and only some of the Hadith.

The links to the verses that speak about jihad might be of interested to you though.

[Sinfix_15]

Since you wanted to make a case that Islam is violent, let's put it in perspective with some facts.

In the current Mexican drug war, more than 60,00 have been killed, with more than 5,000 more missing. Most of this has happened in Mexico, but CNN reported that there were several related killings in Alabama, Texas, and Georgia. Pretty close to home.

Meanwhile, the absolute highest number that I could find was 11,267 deaths at the hands of Muslims extremists - worldwide for 2012. This was from the Blaze, so I figure that you might accept that. Every other report quotes MUCH lower numbers.

Religion (Islamic or other) doesn't seem to tip the scales to one over the other. The desire for more money and power seem to have a lot of influence on people's actions though.

As for the number of terrorist that commit attacks being predominately Muslim, the FBI says "not so". You might need to look out for Jewish terrorists more than Muslims.
Non-Muslims Carried Out More than 90% of All Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Soil | Washington's Blog (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/05/muslims-only-carried-out-2-5-percent-of-terrorist-attacks-on-u-s-soil-between-1970-and-2012.html)


Now, to be perfectly clear, I am not stating that "Islam is a religion of peace". I don't want you to try to put words in my mouth.

The drug war in Mexico is rogue individuals with a clear purpose and they are unanimously alienated from society. The wolf in sheep's clothing is a lot more dangerous than the wolf with larger fangs. The "sheep's clothing" is what makes Islam, in my opinion, the greatest evil facing mankind today. I am against all of them and anyone who commits terrorist acts, but my criteria for assessing threat is a little different. To me, influence is a lot more dangerous than bullets. A politician is more dangerous than a tank, bomb or gun. The statistics you posted do not serve as a comfort for me or disprove anything. There's cases of Islamic terrorist trying to poison our water supply. They claim that they start forest fires. Almost every incident of Islamic terrorism is nameless and faceless with no regard for the target. The goal always seems to be to harm as many people as possible with no concern over who the people are.

This is why its significant to me how negative the Koran is to nonbelievers, in the eyes of extremist, this book has managed to "militarize" everyone outside of the religion. The criteria for being an enemy of Islam is that you do not believe in Islam.

[David88vert]

The drug war in Mexico is rogue individuals with a clear purpose and they are unanimously alienated from society. The wolf in sheep's clothing is a lot more dangerous than the wolf with larger fangs. The "sheep's clothing" is what makes Islam, in my opinion, the greatest evil facing mankind today. I am against all of them and anyone who commits terrorist acts, but my criteria for assessing threat is a little different. To me, influence is a lot more dangerous than bullets. A politician is more dangerous than a tank, bomb or gun. The statistics you posted do not serve as a comfort for me or disprove anything. There's cases of Islamic terrorist trying to poison our water supply. They claim that they start forest fires. Almost every incident of Islamic terrorism is nameless and faceless with no regard for the target. The goal always seems to be to harm as many people as possible with no concern over who the people are.

That's your opinion, and I have no problem with you having that opinion.


This is why its significant to me how negative the Koran is to nonbelievers, in the eyes of extremist, this book has managed to "militarize" everyone outside of the religion. The criteria for being an enemy of Islam is that you do not believe in Islam.

Luckily for us non-believers, the vast majority of Muslims do not see you as their enemy.

[Sinfix_15]

That's your opinion, and I have no problem with you having that opinion.



Luckily for us non-believers, the vast majority of Muslims do not see you as their enemy.

That is very possible. I've already put forth my role in this conversation as the skeptic. I dont really refute the idea that a portion of muslims, possibly a majority of muslims, live peacefully and intend me no harm. My disdain is for the religion itself, not the people, who in my opinion, have fell victim to it.

Every religion has good aspects to it. I bet a large portion of people would find the satanic commandments agreeable if they were not introduced as the satanic commandments. Every religion is designed to "suck you in". It is within the realm of possibility that some muslims only see the good in Islam and use that good to live good and peaceful lives, the same as i do with religions. My issue with them is why they support a religion that is responsible for a large number of crimes against humanity. You can say that the people you know who are muslims, are not extremist terrorists, but you cant say that the extremist terrorists are not muslims. Some of the crimes of Islam are indefensible. My grievance with peaceful muslims is that even though they may not be participating in those acts, they add numbers to the presence and spread of Islam.

The world i want to live in is on where people decide not to rape, murder, steal or harm others for no other reason than that they realize its wrong. It's scary to me how many people need religion as a crutch to be peaceful and even more alarming how many use religion as a justification to be extreme.

[Sinfix_15]

I'm going to read more before posting another scripture. Feel free to post scriptures of your own.

[Sinfix_15]

Also, let me try to put this in perspective.

I do not believe in God, any god, from any religion. I view all religions as man made with some designed purpose. Whatever that purpose may be, good or bad, i cant help but start my thought process with the idea that every religion is based on deception. So i have a natural skepticism for everything religious. I view any text of anyone claiming to be a higher power as a lie. Based on that simple truth that every religion starts with deception, my investigation of them is always skeptical.

I dwell more in the realistic function and purpose of religion rather than the spiritual one. When i read the Koran, i question why normal men create a higher power to build authority over a mass of people. Why cant these works just be guidance? why did they ever begin seeking ruling authority? So from that perspective, religion in general is inherently evil. I am not singling out Islam, Islam is just my highest concern regarding religions.

[David88vert]

That is very possible. I've already put forth my role in this conversation as the skeptic. I dont really refute the idea that a portion of muslims, possibly a majority of muslims, live peacefully and intend me no harm. My disdain is for the religion itself, not the people, who in my opinion, have fell victim to it.

Every religion has good aspects to it. I bet a large portion of people would find the satanic commandments agreeable if they were not introduced as the satanic commandments. Every religion is designed to "suck you in". It is within the realm of possibility that some muslims only see the good in Islam and use that good to live good and peaceful lives, the same as i do with religions. My issue with them is why they support a religion that is responsible for a large number of crimes against humanity. You can say that the people you know who are muslims, are not extremist terrorists, but you cant say that the extremist terrorists are not muslims. Some of the crimes of Islam are indefensible. My grievance with peaceful muslims is that even though they may not be participating in those acts, they add numbers to the presence and spread of Islam.

The world i want to live in is on where people decide not to rape, murder, steal or harm others for no other reason than that they realize its wrong. It's scary to me how many people need religion as a crutch to be peaceful and even more alarming how many use religion as a justification to be extreme.

"My issue with them is why they support a religion that is responsible for a large number of crimes against humanity" - So, again, you believe that a book written 1500 years ago is responsible for these crimes, and not the individuals who chose to commit the crimes? Personal responsibility is thrown out the window as soon as you can blame religion? This is not consistent with your views on guns.

"My grievance with peaceful muslims is that even though they may not be participating in those acts, they add numbers to the presence and spread of Islam" - So, you have a problem with people that do not commit any crimes, live their lives in peace and for the betterment of society, just because they choose a religion that you do not like. Religious tolerance - something that this nation was founded upon, but you do not agree with.

"you cant say that the extremist terrorists are not muslims" - I completely disagree with that statement, as do the actual statistics that I posted a link to.

"The world i want to live in is on where people decide not to rape, murder, steal or harm others for no other reason than that they realize its wrong."
Ahhh, a "utopian dreamer". It's great in sci-fi, but will never work in reality. As long as you have humans, you will have all of the crimes above.
Consider the quote from Jeffrey Dahmer, the atheist/serial killer/cannibal - "If a person doesn’t think there is a God to be accountable to, then—then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That’s how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we, when we died, you know, that was it, there is nothing…" [An interview with Stone Phillips, Dateline NBC, Nov. 29, 1994].

[.blank cd]

Whatever that purpose may be, good or bad, I cant help but start my thought process with the idea that every religion is based on deception.

Aaaaaaaaaaand there's our problem.

[David88vert]

Also, let me try to put this in perspective.

I do not believe in God, any god, from any religion. I view all religions as man made with some designed purpose. Whatever that purpose may be, good or bad, i cant help but start my thought process with the idea that every religion is based on deception. So i have a natural skepticism for everything religious. I view any text of anyone claiming to be a higher power as a lie. Based on that simple truth that every religion starts with deception, my investigation of them is always skeptical.

I dwell more in the realistic function and purpose of religion rather than the spiritual one. When i read the Koran, i question why normal men create a higher power to build authority over a mass of people. Why cant these works just be guidance? why did they ever begin seeking ruling authority? So from that perspective, religion in general is inherently evil. I am not singling out Islam, Islam is just my highest concern regarding religions.

Your opinion - and as long as it works for you, then that's all that matters to you. Others will not have the same opinion, and what they believe works for them.

Here's a question for you though - what makes you think that atheism doesn't start with a deception as well? Perhaps you might consider yourself an agnostic, rather than an atheist.

[.blank cd]

"My grievance with peaceful muslims is that even though they may not be participating in those acts, they add numbers to the presence and spread of Islam" - So, you have a problem with people that do not commit any crimes, live their lives in peace and for the betterment of society, just because they choose a religion that you do not like. Religious tolerance - something that this nation was founded upon, but you do not agree with.

And what do we call this lack of religious tolerance?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry

[Sinfix_15]

Aaaaaaaaaaand there's our problem.

Do you believe in Allah?

[Sinfix_15]

Your opinion - and as long as it works for you, then that's all that matters to you. Others will not have the same opinion, and what they believe works for them.

Here's a question for you though - what makes you think that atheism doesn't start with a deception as well? Perhaps you might consider yourself an agnostic, rather than an atheist.

I havnt really chosen a title for myself. It's not that important to me, atheist is what i assume most would call me. I dont feel a need to be labeled or belong to a group, my acceptance of that title is to appease others who value such labels.

[.blank cd]

Do you believe in Allah?

Do I believe in god? No.

[Sinfix_15]

"My issue with them is why they support a religion that is responsible for a large number of crimes against humanity" - So, again, you believe that a book written 1500 years ago is responsible for these crimes, and not the individuals who chose to commit the crimes? Personal responsibility is thrown out the window as soon as you can blame religion? This is not consistent with your views on guns.

It is consistent with my beliefs on personal responsibility. If every gun i purchased came with a handbook instructing me to wage war on those who did not believe in what i did, then that would be a different story. What if i was a member of the KKK for no other reason than i liked being part of a club and enjoyed bon fires. I did not participate in any hateful action that the KKK endorsed. I am still a walking advertisement for a evil organization and i should take personal responsibility for that affiliation.


"My grievance with peaceful muslims is that even though they may not be participating in those acts, they add numbers to the presence and spread of Islam" - So, you have a problem with people that do not commit any crimes, live their lives in peace and for the betterment of society, just because they choose a religion that you do not like. Religious tolerance - something that this nation was founded upon, but you do not agree with.

Yes, this country was founded upon religious tolerance and our good nature is being used against us. We are tolerant of a religion who is not tolerant of our freedom of religion or freedom in general. Islam teaches that treachery is permitted to be victorious over infidels. Nothing about Islam embraces western culture. Their collective goal in having a presence here is to spread their way of life, not embrace ours. This is the disadvantage that every good in the world faces, that the rules we live by are not followed by those who oppose us. It's a simple idea..... you've seen Batman right?




"The world i want to live in is on where people decide not to rape, murder, steal or harm others for no other reason than that they realize its wrong."
Ahhh, a "utopian dreamer". It's great in sci-fi, but will never work in reality. As long as you have humans, you will have all of the crimes above.
Consider the quote from Jeffrey Dahmer, the atheist/serial killer/cannibal - "If a person doesn’t think there is a God to be accountable to, then—then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That’s how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we, when we died, you know, that was it, there is nothing…" [An interview with Stone Phillips, Dateline NBC, Nov. 29, 1994].

I dont see how my view is utopian. I dont believe people need religion to be good people. I am a walking example of that. If religion is what is holding society together, why doesnt religion govern us?

[Sinfix_15]

Do I believe in god? No.

So you also believe that Allah is a fictional character created by man for a designed purpose. Which would also mean that you believe the Koran is a lie, or deception, based on your choice of words?

I fail to see where we are in disagreement here. If you believe the stories are lies, like me, then join me in questioning their purpose. That's what you do in the christianity threads. I'm a bit taken back by your inconsistency.


Yes or no question, do you believe in Allah?

[.blank cd]

Yes or no question, do you believe in Allah?

You asked me, I gave you the answer, you quoted it, and then you asked me again?

[Sinfix_15]

You asked me, I gave you the answer, you quoted it, and then you asked me again?

Your answer appears evasive. Just looking for clarification. Your emotional responses to this topic does not support the answers you are giving.

You clearly have some connection to Islam, i am trying to find out what it is so that i can put your answers in context. Unlike myself, who is open and honest about my views, whether they be right or wrong, you put a lot of effort into hiding your affiliations, which ironically is also related to the current topic of discussion.

[.blank cd]

Your answer appears evasive. Just looking for clarification. Your emotional responses to this topic does not support the answers you are giving.

You clearly have some connection to Islam, i am trying to find out what it is so that i can put your answers in context. Unlike myself, who is open and honest about my views, whether they be right or wrong, you put a lot of effort into hiding your affiliations, which ironically is also related to the current topic of discussion.

Just keep in mind that you're beliefs are only your beliefs. It doesn't make them right, it doesn't make them factual.

[Sinfix_15]

Just keep in mind that you're beliefs are only your beliefs. It doesn't make them right, it doesn't make them factual.

I'm already aware of that. I am asking you about your beliefs.

More evasive responses.......

i must say, this is becoming rather curious.

[Sinfix_15]

Care to offer a thought as conclusive as one of these Blank???


Should I start in genesis with the talking snake? Or how about the myth of Noah's ark? Or Moses magically parting the Red sea? You're right though. I turned my back on the Judeo-Christian god. Especially after I read the bible, the only written account of his "existence". Based on this account, why worship a deity who is evil and jealous? Between the thousands of gods people around the globe worship, how can we be sure he's the correct one? If he is the correct one, why would he create a world where over 90% of its inhabitants are damned to hell for all eternity?


This is why I absolutely reject the Judeo-Christian god. According to the bible, no matter how many women I rape, no matter how many people I kill, as long as I repent, he will forgive my transgressions and I will be accepted into the kingdom of heaven. However, if I fall in love with another man or think for myself, I'll burn in hell for all eternity.

If there are a bunch of rapists and murderers in heaven and a bunch of my friends and other atheists in hell, I think I'd take my chances in hell


So you want me to show you scientific proof of something that isn't bound by physics, without using science?

The Judeo-Christian god isn't the only god. You refer to the old testament like it doesn't apply anymore. Are we to believe that believers are no longer bound by the ten commandments? Or by any law put fourth in the old testament?

So since slavery was back in the day, and it was the norm, it was ok? Paid slavery is no longer slavery proper, they're called servants, indentured or otherwise.

You dont believe in Gods will? It's laid out perfectly clear in the bible who he condemns.




hmmm....... can you define hypocrisy for me? i know you're all big on correct definitions.

[Sinfix_15]

Is it not hilarious how blank applied nearly my EXACT argument against Islam towards Christianity.... yet here he is condemning me for the same logic.

[David88vert]

It is consistent with my beliefs on personal responsibility. If every gun i purchased came with a handbook instructing me to wage war on those who did not believe in what i did, then that would be a different story. What if i was a member of the KKK for no other reason than i liked being part of a club and enjoyed bon fires. I did not participate in any hateful action that the KKK endorsed. I am still a walking advertisement for a evil organization and i should take personal responsibility for that affiliation.

This is definitely one of your best responses.
So, basically, if you hang out with a Muslim, you are guilty by association then? Oops, you said that you have active Muslim friends. Have you told them that they are evil just for being Muslim yet? Have you told them that they are "walking advertisements for a evil organization"? How did they respond to that?

I grew up around some KKK members. They weren't really concerned about race, they talked a lot about the federal government taking over states' rights though, and argued for smaller federal government. I guess that kind of talk made them evil though, right? That's just a sidebar, don't worry about it.



Yes, this country was founded upon religious tolerance and our good nature is being used against us. We are tolerant of a religion who is not tolerant of our freedom of religion or freedom in general. Islam teaches that treachery is permitted to be victorious over infidels. Nothing about Islam embraces western culture. Their collective goal in having a presence here is to spread their way of life, not embrace ours. This is the disadvantage that every good in the world faces, that the rules we live by are not followed by those who oppose us. It's a simple idea..... you've seen Batman right?

So, you believe that religious tolerance is a bad thing now..... at least, that is what it sounds like you are communicating....

I find it interesting that you believe that this group of people keeps their "grand scheme to deceive" hidden for multiple generations, raising their children in western countries, and to live their entire lives within western cultures. I know quite a few Muslims that were born and raised in the US, and this "truth" that you seem to know has been completely hidden from them. Why would the Muslims hide this "truth" from their own children?
The ones that I have met surely seem to embrace the American way of life.

Have you heard of the "Ramadan Rush"? Tons of rich Arabs descend on London during the summer, racing their supercars around the streets, and living like westerners. They party in clubs, and basically break a lot of the rules. What does Islam have to gain by this behavior?



I dont see how my view is utopian. I dont believe people need religion to be good people. I am a walking example of that. If religion is what is holding society together, why doesnt religion govern us?

So, you believe that people don't need religion to be good, but Islam forces them to be bad? You are a good person without religion, but they are automatically bad because they have a religion?

[.blank cd]

Care to offer a thought as conclusive as one of these Blank???

hmmm....... can you define hypocrisy for me? i know you're all big on correct definitions.

Could you also quote the part where I said Christianity is filth?

[Sinfix_15]

This is definitely one of your best responses.
So, basically, if you hang out with a Muslim, you are guilty by association then? Oops, you said that you have active Muslim friends. Have you told them that they are evil just for being Muslim yet? Have you told them that they are "walking advertisements for a evil organization"? How did they respond to that?

I dont badger them, but theyre aware that i question their beliefs. I think questioning in general is healthy. Most reasonable people do not reject questioning. My friend at work reminds me of Geoff from this sight. He always makes his best attempt to answer the questions and engages in an open debate. My friends are the same way, sometimes they come back with a valid counter and sometimes they admit they dont understand. Overall it's a healthy debate and both sides are aware that they are opposing beliefs. They are more than aware that i do not endorse their religions. My sense of humor doesnt read well, i'm a little more charming in person.


I grew up around some KKK members. They weren't really concerned about race, they talked a lot about the federal government taking over states' rights though, and argued for smaller federal government. I guess that kind of talk made them evil though, right? That's just a sidebar, don't worry about it.

No, those beliefs do not make them evil. You help my claim in saying that "not all KKK members were bad" even though the KKK itself is indefensible. It was the whole part about not thinking black people were human beings with rights that made the KKK bad, not their political beliefs.





So, you believe that religious tolerance is a bad thing now..... at least, that is what it sounds like you are communicating....

Religious tolerance is not a bad thing, its a dangerous thing. The right path is not always the easy path. Being tolerant of outside religions opens a lot of doors for evil to infiltrate our society. It creates a certain level of danger. We accept this danger in the name of doing the right thing. I was joking when i used batman as an example, but that's a good example. Batman's job is more dangerous because he does it the right way. It would have been a lot easier to just shoot everyone up.


I find it interesting that you believe that this group of people keeps their "grand scheme to deceive" hidden for multiple generations, raising their children in western countries, and to live their entire lives within western cultures. I know quite a few Muslims that were born and raised in the US, and this "truth" that you seem to know has been completely hidden from them. Why would the Muslims hide this "truth" from their own children?
The ones that I have met surely seem to embrace the American way of life.

Not every piece on the board is a knight, some are just pawns. I dont believe the ones who embrace the american way of life are following the scripture as it was intended. That is a compliment to them. My question is why do they continue to claim affiliation to islam.... is it because they like the bon fires?


Have you heard of the "Ramadan Rush"? Tons of rich Arabs descend on London during the summer, racing their supercars around the streets, and living like westerners. They party in clubs, and basically break a lot of the rules. What does Islam have to gain by this behavior?

I could argue that it's a display of masculinity. This is a common practice throughout Islam. It's a male dominant religion and a lot of it involves gamesmanship and grandstanding. It's easier to paint these actions as mockery than it is to say theyre embracing western culture. Sharia law also permits "breaking the rules" to deceive infidels.





So, you believe that people don't need religion to be good, but Islam forces them to be bad? You are a good person without religion, but they are automatically bad because they have a religion?

I didnt say theyre automatically bad.... the "good muslims" are the "KKK members who just like bon fires"

[Sinfix_15]

Should I start in genesis with the talking snake? Or how about the myth of Noah's ark? Or Moses magically parting the Red sea? You're right though. I turned my back on the Judeo-Christian god. Especially after I read the bible, the only written account of his "existence". Based on this account, why worship a deity who is evil and jealous? Between the thousands of gods people around the globe worship, how can we be sure he's the correct one? If he is the correct one, why would he create a world where over 90% of its inhabitants are damned to hell for all eternity?

I agree blank, more than half of the Koran speaks ill will of those who do not believe in Islam. why worship a deity who is evil and jealous. If god created the world, why did he put all of the muslims right slam in the middle of earth's asshole where millions of people are damned to death, slavery and turmoil.



This is why I absolutely reject the Judeo-Christian god. According to the bible, no matter how many women I rape, no matter how many people I kill, as long as I repent, he will forgive my transgressions and I will be accepted into the kingdom of heaven. However, if I fall in love with another man or think for myself, I'll burn in hell for all eternity.


If there are a bunch of rapists and murderers in heaven and a bunch of my friends and other atheists in hell, I think I'd take my chances in hell

I agree with you blank, no matter how many women Muslims torture, rape and disfigure, they are permitted to do so by their religion. If i have to enjoy my 72 virgins in heaven with a bunch of rapists, murders and pedophiles, i think i will take my chances in hell.



So you want me to show you scientific proof of something that isn't bound by physics, without using science?


The Judeo-Christian god isn't the only god. You refer to the old testament like it doesn't apply anymore. Are we to believe that believers are no longer bound by the ten commandments? Or by any law put fourth in the old testament?


So since slavery was back in the day, and it was the norm, it was ok? Paid slavery is no longer slavery proper, they're called servants, indentured or otherwise.


You dont believe in Gods will? It's laid out perfectly clear in the bible who he condemns.

I agree blank, since beheading, disfigurement, slavery and pedophilia was the norm back then it was ok?? You cant turn your back on the will of Allah, the Koran lays it out perfectly clear.

[.blank cd]

Poor attempt in turning those quotes into something I didnt say.

[Sinfix_15]

Poor attempt in turning those quotes into something I didnt say.

LOL that is EXACTLY what you said.................


Everything i say about Islam, you have said about Christianity. quit being a hypocrite for God's sake.



So do you feel as strongly about Islam as you do about Christianity? Both Deities are equally as fictional and evil?

You already said you chose hell over christian heaven.

do you also chose hell over 72 virgins in heaven?

[Sinfix_15]

Gods warriors

http://www.topyaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/taliban.jpg

hmmm...

[David88vert]

I dont badger them, but theyre aware that i question their beliefs. I think questioning in general is healthy. Most reasonable people do not reject questioning. My friend at work reminds me of Geoff from this sight. He always makes his best attempt to answer the questions and engages in an open debate. My friends are the same way, sometimes they come back with a valid counter and sometimes they admit they dont understand. Overall it's a healthy debate and both sides are aware that they are opposing beliefs. They are more than aware that i do not endorse their religions. My sense of humor doesnt read well, i'm a little more charming in person.


To me, that sounds much more reasonable that your earlier statements. Of course, I agree that questioning is not a bad thing.



No, those beliefs do not make them evil. You help my claim in saying that "not all KKK members were bad" even though the KKK itself is indefensible. It was the whole part about not thinking black people were human beings with rights that made the KKK bad, not their political beliefs.


I think that your use of the KKK argument was definitely a solid and rational point.

There's only one problem - one of the people that they hung out with during these discussions was an old black man. They didn't seem to have any problems with respecting his opinion, and certainly didn't see him as a "lesser man" (granted that he was the only black man in their group, and not a member as far as I know). So, where were they evil/bad/terrible?




Religious tolerance is not a bad thing, its a dangerous thing. The right path is not always the easy path. Being tolerant of outside religions opens a lot of doors for evil to infiltrate our society. It creates a certain level of danger. We accept this danger in the name of doing the right thing. I was joking when i used batman as an example, but that's a good example. Batman's job is more dangerous because he does it the right way. It would have been a lot easier to just shoot everyone up.

So, what is your solution? Would you force everyone that is Muslim into concentration camps, exile them out of the country, stop allowing any Muslim immigrants into the US, etc? Do we stop having religious tolerance in the US and become "un-American"?



Not every piece on the board is a knight, some are just pawns. I dont believe the ones who embrace the american way of life are following the scripture as it was intended. That is a compliment to them. My question is why do they continue to claim affiliation to islam.... is it because they like the bon fires?


So, you believe that these children born in America are being deceived from birth? What advantage is that to this "grand Islamic plot"?
Perhaps the Islamic scriptures that they were preached to by the iman taught them to live in peace and harmony? Or is that too difficult for you to believe?
See, I know Muslims here in America that have raised their children to adults, and I know other Muslims completely unrelated to the others that are currently raising their children to be peaceful. I'm talking about different Muslims, with different backgrounds, some born in the US, some in other countries, some raised since birth to be Muslim, and others who have converted is Islam. They all have in common their peaceful integration into the American way of life. This knowledge that I have of them at a close, personal level run completely contrary to what you have been stating over and over again. Do you think that these unrelated groups (they don't know each other) somehow are being controlled and brainwashed to be enemies of yours without any common denominators? That does not seem logical to me.



I could argue that it's a display of masculinity. This is a common practice throughout Islam. It's a male dominant religion and a lot of it involves gamesmanship and grandstanding. It's easier to paint these actions as mockery than it is to say theyre embracing western culture. Sharia law also permits "breaking the rules" to deceive infidels.


Actually, it's a bunch of Islamic kids that just go to London each summer and have fun, then go back home in time for the prayers and fasting. There is no "mocking" of western culture - they do this every year and love it. It's no different than American college kids heading down to Daytona. You are making baseless assumptions about something you know nothing about. They aren't deceiving anyone, they are just having a good time - unless you believe that somehow every single one of them is an active terrorist just there to scout out targets.




I didnt say theyre automatically bad.... the "good muslims" are the "KKK members who just like bon fires"

So then, by your statement - you believe that people don't need religion to be good, but "good Muslims" are walking advertisements for evil.

You know, I saw a lot of condemnation for the Boston bombers from the Muslim community. How does that work with "hanging around the bonfire"?

[Vteckidd]

I think all religion is guilty of forgetting that their doctrines are based on BELIEF, not FACTs.

Thats all i have to add

[Sinfix_15]

There's only one problem - one of the people that they hung out with during these discussions was an old black man. They didn't seem to have any problems with respecting his opinion, and certainly didn't see him as a "lesser man" (granted that he was the only black man in their group, and not a member as far as I know). So, where were they evil/bad/terrible?

They endorse evil. There's no way to wear the KKK brand without accepting this reality. If you are a member of the KKK, i dont care if you spend every waking hour doing charity and good deeds, you are endorsing a brand that promotes evil. Your good deeds are masking the designed purpose of that organization and contributing to it's recruitment.





So, what is your solution? Would you force everyone that is Muslim into concentration camps, exile them out of the country, stop allowing any Muslim immigrants into the US, etc? Do we stop having religious tolerance in the US and become "un-American"?

Step 1 is to make sure that our own citizens and customs are reinforced and that our open people are empowered to be free individuals. A major contributor to that idea is your 2nd amendment rights. As long as the US is strong and free, we have no worries of being ruled. Current policy weakens civil liberty, freedom and our ability as individuals to repel these problems. Tolerance of religion can be mated with awareness. Rather than us being apologetic to the radical aspects of Islam, we should openly condemn them and punish their crimes to the fullest extent of the law. Sharia law should never be honored on american soil and every individual who becomes an american citizen should be protected by our laws.




So, you believe that these children born in America are being deceived from birth? What advantage is that to this "grand Islamic plot"?
Perhaps the Islamic scriptures that they were preached to by the iman taught them to live in peace and harmony? Or is that too difficult for you to believe?
See, I know Muslims here in America that have raised their children to adults, and I know other Muslims completely unrelated to the others that are currently raising their children to be peaceful. I'm talking about different Muslims, with different backgrounds, some born in the US, some in other countries, some raised since birth to be Muslim, and others who have converted is Islam. They all have in common their peaceful integration into the American way of life. This knowledge that I have of them at a close, personal level run completely contrary to what you have been stating over and over again. Do you think that these unrelated groups (they don't know each other) somehow are being controlled and brainwashed to be enemies of yours without any common denominators? That does not seem logical to me.

I dont see how this changes anything. The scripture is what it is. They are not following the scripture, they are taking some of the scripture as a guide. I support some religious practices, but i claim no religion. I would never endorse any religion in it's entirety. I dont know why these people you know feel the need to endorse Islam. I guess its human nature to want to belong to a group, and when no group completely suits you, you simply chose one, or inherit it from your parents.




Actually, it's a bunch of Islamic kids that just go to London each summer and have fun, then go back home in time for the prayers and fasting. There is no "mocking" of western culture - they do this every year and love it. It's no different than American college kids heading down to Daytona. You are making baseless assumptions about something you know nothing about. They aren't deceiving anyone, they are just having a good time - unless you believe that somehow every single one of them is an active terrorist just there to scout out targets.

Again, the theme is that these people are not following the scripture. They are casual observers of Islam. My "beef" is with the religion itself. My other argument was a stretch.





So then, by your statement - you believe that people don't need religion to be good, but "good Muslims" are walking advertisements for evil.

You know, I saw a lot of condemnation for the Boston bombers from the Muslim community. How does that work with "hanging around the bonfire"?

Analogy still applies..... those "good muslims" attended the bon fire, then went home when the rest of the Klan went out and burned crosses and hung people. As long as they claim Islam, theyre walking advertisements for what happens on behalf of islam. The extremism exists in the texts, not everyone embraces it, but it is always there. as long as the text is promoted, some portion of people will adopt the radical views contained within. Unintentionally, your muslim friends are contributing to this problem. The boston bombers are a great example. They appeared perfectly normal to everyone around them, they probably were good people at some point in time..... eventually their life's course led them to discover the extremism contained within Islam and they fell victim to it. That's Islam..... a bed of flowers planted around the gate of a slaughter house. Some people can stop, pick a flower and walk away.... others see the flowers and walk inside.

[Sinfix_15]

I'm mentally exhausted for today........

I'll pick up another scripture in the next couple days. In the mean time, i'm going to take a break and limit my posts to mocking Blank's unbelievable hypocrisy.

[David88vert]

They endorse evil. There's no way to wear the KKK brand without accepting this reality. If you are a member of the KKK, i dont care if you spend every waking hour doing charity and good deeds, you are endorsing a brand that promotes evil. Your good deeds are masking the designed purpose of that organization and contributing to it's recruitment.

Got it. All people who do good, live good lives, are always peaceful, and help others, are evil scum if they have any association with any group that ever does evil.
By that understanding - all atheists are now deemed to be serial killers and mass murderers due to guilt by association, right?



Step 1 is to make sure that our own citizens and customs are reinforced and that our open people are empowered to be free individuals. A major contributor to that idea is your 2nd amendment rights. As long as the US is strong and free, we have no worries of being ruled. Current policy weakens civil liberty, freedom and our ability as individuals to repel these problems. Tolerance of religion can be mated with awareness. Rather than us being apologetic to the radical aspects of Islam, we should openly condemn them and punish their crimes to the fullest extent of the law. Sharia law should never be honored on american soil and every individual who becomes an american citizen should be protected by our laws.

Step 1 - What "customs" are you referring to? The rest of it seems to be business as usual. I don't see you changing anything that we already do.
We already try and convict individuals for the crimes that they commit, regardless of any religious rational. We don't try and convict people based upon their religious affiliations though. Would you suggest that we start doing that?
I am not aware of anyone being arrested, tried, or convicted in the US judicial system based upon any Sharia laws, only US federal and state laws. I have never even heard anyone suggest that our courts use Sharia law. Where do you even come up with that statement?

Step 2 is what? What action items do you think that we should implement into law? Genuine interest here.





I dont see how this changes anything. The scripture is what it is. They are not following the scripture, they are taking some of the scripture as a guide. I support some religious practices, but i claim not religion. I would never endorse any religion in it's entirety. I dont know why these people you know feel the need to endorse Islam. I guess its human nature to want to belong to a group, and when no group completely suits you, you simply chose one, or inherit it from your parents.

I'm simply asking you how these Muslims fit into your "gran scheme of Islam". That's all. I don't see how Islam can "take over and dominate the world", when their own people aren't even in on it, nor would support any such action.
How would they even coordinate that large of a group of people logistically?

So, based upon your earlier statements, you seem to think that people should need a religious guide (instructions) for being "good people" with morals. I see that most people can't even do the most basic things without some sort of instructions. Just basic cooking of food seems to need detailed instructions on how to make it editable, but somehow you think that these same people that need instructions on how high to turn up the head on their oven are going to be able to make moral judgment calls with no instructions. The same non-church-going people that rob, cheat, kill, steal, etc today with no second thought. I just don't buy it.




Again, the theme is that these people are not following the scripture. They are casual observers of Islam. My "beef" is with the religion itself. My other argument was a stretch.

They observe every peaceful instruction that they are taught, and pray 5 times a day as instructed, but they are just "casual observers", according to you. As long as they don't rape, steal, and kill, they aren't Muslims according to your "rules" - that's about right, isn't it?





Analogy still applies..... those "good muslims" attended the bon fire, then went home when the rest of the Klan went out and burned crosses and hung people. As long as they claim Islam, theyre walking advertisements for what happens on behalf of islam. The extremism exists in the texts, not everyone embraces it, but it is always there. as long as the text is promoted, some portion of people will adopt the radical views contained within. Unintentionally, your muslim friends are contributing to this problem. The boston bombers are a great example. They appeared perfectly normal to everyone around them, they probably were good people at some point in time..... eventually their life's course led them to discover the extremism contained within Islam and they fell victim to it. That's Islam..... a bed of flowers planted around the gate of a slaughter house. Some people can stop, pick a flower and walk away.... others see the flowers and walk inside.

Guilt by association. Luckily, you aren't in our legal system.

[Sinfix_15]

Got it. All people who do good, live good lives, are always peaceful, and help others, are evil scum if they have any association with any group that ever does evil.
By that understanding - all atheists are now deemed to be serial killers and mass murderers due to guilt by association, right?

I dont view atheist as a group for one. Not believing is not a belief in itself. I am an individual. It's the religious who chose to brand me with a label.

You're taking my comment to the extreme. Not guilty by association, or guilty in any regard. They empower a religious group that is designed to do evil. They are enablers. Islam is what it is, if you chose to cherry pick the good parts and still call yourself a muslim, whether you like it or not, you are empowering those who take islam literally and too the extreme.




Step 1 - What "customs" are you referring to? The rest of it seems to be business as usual. I don't see you changing anything that we already do.
We already try and convict individuals for the crimes that they commit, regardless of any religious rational. We don't try and convict people based upon their religious affiliations though. Would you suggest that we start doing that?
I am not aware of anyone being arrested, tried, or convicted in the US judicial system based upon any Sharia laws, only US federal and state laws. I have never even heard anyone suggest that our courts use Sharia law. Where do you even come up with that statement?

Step 2 is what? What action items do you think that we should implement into law? Genuine interest here.

Our government is for sale to the highest bidder. I have no confidence in it's ability to stand up for traditional american beliefs. Our current president said "the future must not belong to those who slander the profit of islam". By american laws, the profit muhammad is a rapist, pedophile and murderer and the disdain for him is free speech. Step 2 would be to stop the global campaigning and focus on preserving the rights of american citizens. Anyone who enters this country should know that we are a country that doesnt oppress women, force children into marriage, allow husbands to beat their wives or allow people to be disfigured. The campaign should be to condemn these aspects of Islam, not to be tolerant of them. If your muslim friends are as peaceful as they claim to be, they will endorse that message as well rather than take steps to protect islam from free speech. Our president apologized for a video made by an individual even under the false premise that the video caused americans to be killed in protest. This is the wrong direction for america. Our own government promotes a message that we should be ashamed of our freedom while at the same time apologizing to all of the radicals of the world. I want a president of the united states, not a president of the united nations.






I'm simply asking you how these Muslims fit into your "gran scheme of Islam". That's all. I don't see how Islam can "take over and dominate the world", when their own people aren't even in on it, nor would support any such action.
How would they even coordinate that large of a group of people logistically?

Those people are the pawns. They are the veil that makes people like you defend islam. The islamic extremist do not need to coordinate a large group, thier current model of attack is to push propaganda in hopes of generating lone wolf acts of terrorism. The seed of hate has been planted, it exists in the texts of the Koran. Islam waters those seeds, some grow, some dont. It only takes 1 person..... the boston bombing was acted out by two people, who appeared normal to their friends. They could have easily been one of your friends who you are currently defending. Every time something like that happens everybody says "omg i didnt expect that", why not? it's all laid out by the Koran.


So, based upon your earlier statements, you seem to think that people should need a religious guide (instructions) for being "good people" with morals. I see that most people can't even do the most basic things without some sort of instructions. Just basic cooking of food seems to need detailed instructions on how to make it editable, but somehow you think that these same people that need instructions on how high to turn up the head on their oven are going to be able to make moral judgment calls with no instructions. The same non-church-going people that rob, cheat, kill, steal, etc today with no second thought. I just don't buy it.

governments and religious groups have killed way more people than the nonreligious, yet governments and religions continue to preach that the world would be chaos without either of them.





They observe every peaceful instruction that they are taught, and pray 5 times a day as instructed, but they are just "casual observers", according to you. As long as they don't rape, steal, and kill, they aren't Muslims according to your "rules" - that's about right, isn't it?

Nope, they are not following the instruction of the Koran, they are casual observers who cherry picked from a religion the things they liked and lack the courage to renounce the religion itself. They need to belong to something. It's not easy to admit the simplicity of our existence for some people. These people are ignorant, if not evil. Islam is evil.

[.blank cd]

Nope, they are not following the instruction of the Koran, they are casual observers who cherry picked from a religion the things they liked and lack the courage to renounce the religion itself. They need to belong to something. It's not easy to admit the simplicity of our existence for some people. These people are ignorant, if not evil. Islam is evil.

Hmm. A no-true-Scotsman fallacy.

[Sinfix_15]

Hmm. A no-true-Scotsman fallacy.

Do you believe in the profit Muhammad?

[.blank cd]

Do you believe in the profit Muhammad?

No. Again.

[Sinfix_15]

No. Again.

So you're saying the book we are talking about is fictional?

[David88vert]

I dont view atheist as a group for one. Not believing is not a belief in itself. I am an individual. It's the religious who chose to brand me with a label.

Atheists are very much a group. There are many organizations of them, complete with lobbying groups. Have you not seen their billboards in Muslim communities?

Stating "there is no god/gods" is a belief. If you said that you didn't know if there was a god/gods, then that would be different.



You're taking my comment to the extreme. Not guilty by association, or guilty in any regard. They empower a religious group that is designed to do evil. They are enablers. Islam is what it is, if you chose to cherry pick the good parts and still call yourself a muslim, whether you like it or not, you are empowering those who take islam literally and too the extreme.

How is it empowering the radicals? Give an example of an actual measurable empowerment.




Our government is for sale to the highest bidder. I have no confidence in it's ability to stand up for traditional american beliefs. Our current president said "the future cant belong to those who slander the profit muhammad. By american laws, the profit muhammad is a rapist, pedophile and murderer and the disdain for him is free speech. Step 2 would be to stop the global campaigning and focus on preserving the rights of american citizens. Anyone who enters this country should know that we are a country that doesnt oppress women, force children into marriage, allow husbands to beat their wives or allow people to be disfigured. The campaign should be to condemn these aspects of Islam, not to be tolerant of them. If your muslim friends are as peaceful as they claim to be, they will endorse that message as well rather than take steps to protect islam from free speech. Our president apologized for a video made by an individual even under the false premise that the video caused americans to be killed in protest. This is the wrong direction for america. Our own government promotes a message that we should be ashamed of our freedom while at the same time apologizing to all of the radicals of the world. I want a president of the united states, not a president of the united nations.

How much? I want to buy the government. Give me a price and who to make the check out to, since you have decided that the American people no longer elect our government.
( ^ sarcastic comment ^ )

Mohammed never lived in the US - we can't prosecute him. That little tidbit might have escaped your attention.
( ^ sarcastic comment ^ )

"Anyone who enters this country should know that we are a country that doesnt oppress women, force children into marriage, allow husbands to beat their wives or allow people to be disfigured." - I believe that most people already are aware of our laws, and follow them. The crime statistics support it.

"If your muslim friends are as peaceful as they claim to be, they will endorse that message as well rather than take steps to protect islam from free speech." - My Muslim friends certainly do support the laws of the US, and abide by them. They also support free speech - which I have to wonder if you do. You sound like you would like to ban the Qur'an's teachings in the US, and the rest of the world, if possible.

"Our president apologized for a video made by an individual even under the false premise that the video caused americans to be killed in protest. This is the wrong direction for america. I want a president of the united states, not a president of the united nations." - You should already know that I am fully in agreement with you on this point.




Those people are the pawns. They are the veil that makes people like you defend islam. The islamic extremist do not need to coordinate a large group, theyre current model of attack is to push propaganda in hopes of generating lone wolf acts of terrorism. The seed of hate has been planted, it exists in the texts of the Koran. Islam waters those seeds, some grow, some dont. It only takes 1 person..... the boston bombing was acted out by two people, who appeared normal to their friends. They could have easily been one of your friends who you are currently defending. Every time something like that happens everybody says "omg i didnt expect that", why not? it's all laid out by the Koran.

Stating that people are pawns implies that they are participants on a battlefield, and that they know that (willing participants). That isn't the case. They are not being "moved around" the battlefield, and are not participating in any of the conflict. If anything, they would be spectators in the stands at a football game.

I am not defending Islam. I point out reality and facts, that's it.
These "lone acts of terrorism" - how do they help these radical extremists control and conquer the world? That's what you said that Islam was all about - conquering, dominating, and controlling the world. How did the acts of the Boston bombers advance the radicals in their quest to conquer the US? Show an example of it.

As for my friends, I'm pretty certain that they would not do anything like the Boston bombers. Your attempt to place that kind of guilt by association on them is pretty pathetic.




governments and religious groups have killed way more people than the nonreligious, yet governments and religions continue to preach that the world would be chaos without either of them.

I love when people pretend that without religion or government, everything would be great. It's a myth that is easily dispelled.
Here are six atheists that killed a large amount of people.

Stalin - Estimated to have killed between 20 and 60 million (the higher number is indirect through starvation/hunger)
Pol Pot - Estimated to have killed around 2 million Cambodians (approximately one third of the population).
Mao - Blamed for the deaths of between 20 and 67 million, including 5 million executed in death camps. Another 36 million were persecuted and tortured.
Mussolini - Only around 300,000 - not bad, right?
Napoleon - Estimated 6 million dead Europeans.

None of the above involved religion. These were atheists that killed. And that's just six of them.





Nope, they are not following the instruction of the Koran, they are casual observers who cherry picked from a religion the things they liked and lack the courage to renounce the religion itself. They need to belong to something. It's not easy to admit the simplicity of our existence for some people. These people are ignorant, if not evil. Islam is evil.

So they are evil for doing good, but being associated with Islam?
Your logic is astounding (sarcastic comment).


(Sarcastic comments are marked so you don't waste your time trying to answer them.)

[.blank cd]

So you're saying the book we are talking about is fictional?

No

[Sinfix_15]

Atheists are very much a group. There are many organizations of them, complete with lobbying groups. Have you not seen their billboards in Muslim communities?

Stating "there is no god/gods" is a belief. If you said that you didn't know if there was a god/gods, then that would be different.

Can you direct me to the atheist "bible" so i can read it and educate myself on this group i apparently belong to. I'm curious to what our commandments are and if child rape or beheading is allowed.

I clearly renounce being a part of any group. If muslims did the same, we wouldnt be having this conversation.




How is it empowering the radicals? Give an example of an actual measurable empowerment.
http://frontpagemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/130303160948-kerry-morsi-egypt-story-top-550x309-450x2521.jpg



Mohammed never lived in the US - we can't prosecute him. That little tidbit might have escaped your attention.
( ^ sarcastic comment ^ )

Neither did Osama Bin Laden.


"If your muslim friends are as peaceful as they claim to be, they will endorse that message as well rather than take steps to protect islam from free speech." - My Muslim friends certainly do support the laws of the US, and abide by them. They also support free speech - which I have to wonder if you do. You sound like you would like to ban the Qur'an's teachings in the US, and the rest of the world, if possible.

I dont want to ban free speech or the Koran. I just dont want it endorsed by my government. A lot of Islamic traditions are illegal in the united states..... how can our government promote tolerance of this criminal activity. It should be condemned. I dont want to see Islam made illegal, i just want the promotion to stop. Rape fetish porn is legal, that doesnt mean our government should promote tolerance of it.



Stating that people are pawns implies that they are participants on a battlefield, and that they know that (willing participants). That isn't the case. They are not being "moved around" the battlefield, and are not participating in any of the conflict. If anything, they would be spectators in the stands at a football game.

They are bushes that the enemy hides in.


I am not defending Islam. I point out reality and facts, that's it.
These "lone acts of terrorism" - how do they help these radical extremists control and conquer the world? That's what you said that Islam was all about - conquering, dominating, and controlling the world. How did the acts of the Boston bombers advance the radicals in their quest to conquer the US? Show an example of it.

You assume that these criminals are rational human beings. The boston bombing was a victory for islamic terrorists. 9/11 was a victory.... the attacks on our embassy are victories....
http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/uploads/2013/06/tamerlan.jpg


I love when people pretend that without religion or government, everything would be great. It's a myth that is easily dispelled.
Here are six atheists that killed a large amount of people.

Stalin - Estimated to have killed between 20 and 60 million (the higher number is indirect through starvation/hunger)
Pol Pot - Estimated to have killed around 2 million Cambodians (approximately one third of the population).
Mao - Blamed for the deaths of between 20 and 67 million, including 5 million executed in death camps. Another 36 million were persecuted and tortured.
Mussolini - Only around 300,000 - not bad, right?
Napoleon - Estimated 6 million dead Europeans.

None of the above involved religion. These were atheists that killed. And that's just six of them.

Communist
Communist
Communist
Fascist
Monarch

Ummm...... you saw the part where i said governments right? As much as you want to make people who do not believe in gods a group, they are not. I have nothing in common with any of these individuals and their power stemmed from governing authority. I am a strong advocate against big government and the government's authority to rule over people. Was this comment meant for someone else???






So they are evil for doing good, but being associated with Islam?
Your logic is astounding (sarcastic comment).



Theyre not evil. The religion itself is evil and they have fallen victim to it. You boast the numbers of muslims in america and the number world wide. Because of these numbers they continue to gain political influence. With that political influence, they advance their religion globally. As i already said...... i fear the politician more than the sword or bullet.

[Sinfix_15]

No

So the stories in the bible and the Qur'an are both true? Muhammad had the sexual strength of 30 men, Moses parted the red sea, Jesus turned water into wine?

[.blank cd]

Atheists are very much a group. There are many organizations of them, complete with lobbying groups. Have you not seen their billboards in Muslim communities?

Stating "there is no god/gods" is a belief. If you said that you didn't know if there was a god/gods, then that would be different.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief of a deity. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[.blank cd]

So the stories in the bible and the Qur'an are both true?Not all of them. No.

[Sinfix_15]

Not all of them. No.

Would you mind highlighting some of the ones you do and do not believe, particularly the ones regarding Islam.

[.blank cd]

Would you mind highlighting some of the ones you do and do not believe, particularly the ones regarding Islam.

Not a scholar of either religion so I couldn't be sure which ones are legitimate.

[Sinfix_15]

Not a scholar of either religion so I couldn't be sure which ones are legitimate.

You were educated enough to make these statements.... pardon me for expecting the same enthusiasm towards Islam. Strangely.... you stepped away and slipped out the back door when that conversation turned towards Islam as well.


Should I start in genesis with the talking snake? Or how about the myth of Noah's ark? Or Moses magically parting the Red sea? You're right though. I turned my back on the Judeo-Christian god. Especially after I read the bible, the only written account of his "existence". Based on this account, why worship a deity who is evil and jealous? Between the thousands of gods people around the globe worship, how can we be sure he's the correct one? If he is the correct one, why would he create a world where over 90% of its inhabitants are damned to hell for all eternity?


This is why I absolutely reject the Judeo-Christian god. According to the bible, no matter how many women I rape, no matter how many people I kill, as long as I repent, he will forgive my transgressions and I will be accepted into the kingdom of heaven. However, if I fall in love with another man or think for myself, I'll burn in hell for all eternity.

If there are a bunch of rapists and murderers in heaven and a bunch of my friends and other atheists in hell, I think I'd take my chances in hell


So you want me to show you scientific proof of something that isn't bound by physics, without using science?

The Judeo-Christian god isn't the only god. You refer to the old testament like it doesn't apply anymore. Are we to believe that believers are no longer bound by the ten commandments? Or by any law put fourth in the old testament?

So since slavery was back in the day, and it was the norm, it was ok? Paid slavery is no longer slavery proper, they're called servants, indentured or otherwise.

You dont believe in Gods will? It's laid out perfectly clear in the bible who he condemns.


I guess a more fitting question would be are you bigger hypocrite or moron?

You are quite the deceiver blank, some might say the best of deceivers.

[.blank cd]

You were educated enough to make these statements.... pardon me for expecting the same enthusiasm towards Islam. Strangely.... you stepped away and slipped out the back door when that conversation turned towards Islam as well.Educated enough to know when something defies the laws of physics. Haven't slipped out the back door of anything. I'm just not letting you put words in my mouth to help build your strawman argument and justify your own bigotry and ignorance. Nothing I've ever said regarding religion has been hypocritical at all. Never once have I claimed that Christianity is filth. Had you taken the time to read the thread you cherry picked those quotes from, you'd understand that. But reading comprehension doesn't seem to be one of your strong suits.

[-EnVus-]

I can't stand an Atheist stop being a lazy fuck and choose a religion dammit !!

[David88vert]

Can you direct me to the atheist "bible" so i can read it and educate myself on this group i apparently belong to. I'm curious to what our commandments are and if child rape or beheading is allowed.

I clearly renounce being a part of any group. If muslims did the same, we wouldnt be having this conversation.


There is no "atheist bible", as you are already aware. Instead, with atheism, anything goes, as there is no accountability or responsibility anymore. As much as you don't like it, Dahmer made the point.

Not being part of a group makes no difference as to whether someone chooses to do evil or good.



(photo of Kerry)

I do not know what you are referring to by this photo. Being near Kerry is hardly a win.



Neither did Osama Bin Laden.

Mohammed never attacked the US, and you would have a hard time finding and killing a man who has been dead for 1500 years.



I dont want to ban free speech or the Koran. I just dont want it endorsed by my government. A lot of Islamic traditions are illegal in the united states..... how can our government promote tolerance of this criminal activity. It should be condemned. I dont want to see Islam made illegal, i just want the promotion to stop. Rape fetish porn is legal, that doesnt mean our government should promote tolerance of it.

Where is the US government promoting criminal activity by Muslims? Please give specific examples that we can ask Congress to act upon.



They are bushes that the enemy hides in.

Please don't dodge - that's what you accuse blank of doing.




You assume that these criminals are rational human beings. The boston bombing was a victory for islamic terrorists. 9/11 was a victory.... the attacks on our embassy are victories....

How did any of these acts get them closer to conquering, dominating, and controlling the world? That is what you stated their goal was. I want you to state specific measureable results that move them closer to this world domination. Make it obvious for us.



Communist
Communist
Communist
Fascist
Monarch

Ummm...... you saw the part where i said governments right? As much as you want to make people who do not believe in gods a group, they are not. I have nothing in common with any of these individuals and their power stemmed from governing authority. I am a strong advocate against big government and the government's authority to rule over people. Was this comment meant for someone else???

You stated governments and religion are doing the killing, making the implication be that if we didn't have either, we would be better off. I am stating that is not true. It appears that you do understand that we need government. What you don't see is that the worst genocides in history happened in the absence of government and religion. Look them up.

All of those leaders that I listed earlier declared that they were atheists. They never claimed to be part of a group, just that they were atheists. They choose to be evil, without religion as an excuse. That has been my point the whole time - people choose their actions, and have to be personally responsible for them.




Theyre not evil. The religion itself is evil and they have fallen victim to it. You boast the numbers of muslims in america and the number world wide. Because of these numbers they continue to gain political influence. With that political influence, they advance their religion globally. As i already said...... i fear the politician more than the sword or bullet.

So, you are saying that you are worried that the peaceful Muslims will take over your government? The ones that live without the same hate that you have for their religion?
2.6 Muslims in the US, out of 314 million people in the US. And you consider them a threat?

[David88vert]

Atheism is simply a lack of belief of a deity. Nothing more. Nothing less.


Agnosticism says, "It is unknown if there are gods". That is a lack of belief, and nothing more.
Atheism states, "There is no God/gods." That's a belief and a specific denial of the existence of God.
Atheism and Agnosticism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy) (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/)

If you do not believe this, take it up with University of North Texas sociologists David A. Williamson and George Yancey, and David Silverman and Dennis Horvitz of the American Atheists, a powerful lobbying group.

http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/files/2011/03/rightsmall.jpg

you might want to start a different thread for atheism though, as it is off on a tangent for this thread.

[David88vert]

Educated enough to know when something defies the laws of physics. ....

Physics deals with the finite universe, not infinite beings.

[David88vert]

I can't stand an Atheist stop being a lazy fuck and choose a religion dammit !!

Atheists have already chosen, "None of the above". They've already made a choice.

[Sinfix_15]

I can't stand an Atheist stop being a lazy fuck and choose a religion dammit !!

If forced to chose, i'll take the greek mythology gods.

[Sinfix_15]

There is no "atheist bible", as you are already aware. Instead, with atheism, anything goes, as there is no accountability or responsibility anymore. As much as you don't like it, Dahmer made the point.

Not being part of a group makes no difference as to whether someone chooses to do evil or good.

lol... "anything goes" without religion... not really worthy of comment.




I do not know what you are referring to by this photo. Being near Kerry is hardly a win. Political influence is a major victory. Islam has influence within the american government, the strongest nation in the world. That is a victory.




Where is the US government promoting criminal activity by Muslims? Please give specific examples that we can ask Congress to act upon.

Promoting Islam is promoting criminal activity. That is the point. Islam should not be promoted at all. If Muhammad was alive today and living his life the way he preached in the united states... he would be on par with this guy.... and jailed.
http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/51fa98f66bb3f74810000000-480/ariel-castro-cleveland-kidnapper.jpg










How did any of these acts get them closer to conquering, dominating, and controlling the world? That is what you stated their goal was. I want you to state specific measureable results that move them closer to this world domination. Make it obvious for us.

A political foothold is the best strategy for world domination. That is what theyre seeking. We will never fall to warships landing on our beaches.... we can only fall from within. The war is being waged.....


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/2/cia-finds-1-5-job-applicants-hail-hamas-hezbollah-/



You stated governments and religion are doing the killing, making the implication be that if we didn't have either, we would be better off. I am stating that is not true. It appears that you do understand that we need government. What you don't see is that the worst genocides in history happened in the absence of government and religion. Look them up.

We need limited government that doesnt attempt to control our lives. I'd love to see proof of genocide worse than that of government and religion.


All of those leaders that I listed earlier declared that they were atheists. They never claimed to be part of a group, just that they were atheists. They choose to be evil, without religion as an excuse. That has been my point the whole time - people choose their actions, and have to be personally responsible for them.

They were a part of their governments. There's really not that much difference in religion and government, they both serve relative functions with similar interests. Things become chaotic when either of their roles are not limited. Limited government and limited religion can serve humanity well. It's when they over reach that the problems begin.





So, you are saying that you are worried that the peaceful Muslims will take over your government? The ones that live without the same hate that you have for their religion?
2.6 Muslims in the US, out of 314 million people in the US. And you consider them a threat?

No, i think the 2.6m muslims in america are meek and incapable of separating themselves from the radicals. Even far removed from the oppression and shielded by the safety of american law, they still claim allegiance to the radical religion. In the event the extremist started migrating here, they would have the political support of the muslims that exist here. The hive mind of religious groups is very strong.

[Sinfix_15]

Educated enough to know when something defies the laws of physics. Haven't slipped out the back door of anything. I'm just not letting you put words in my mouth to help build your strawman argument and justify your own bigotry and ignorance. Nothing I've ever said regarding religion has been hypocritical at all. Never once have I claimed that Christianity is filth. Had you taken the time to read the thread you cherry picked those quotes from, you'd understand that. But reading comprehension doesn't seem to be one of your strong suits.

No child, by your definition of bigotry, you are a bigot. Perhaps you should be more tolerant of christianity. Maybe you need to take a break from pretending to be a psychiatrist and actually go see a real one. Your views are so bassackwards and contradicting. You Obamanists really dont know your own asses from a hole in the wall. Stay with the hive little bee....

[Sinfix_15]

Sharia Law

• Theft is punishable by amputation of the right hand (above).
• Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Muhammad is a prophet is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Allah, the moon god of Islam is punishable by death.
• A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim man who marries a Muslim woman is punishable by death.
• A man can marry an infant girl and consummate the marriage when she is 9 years old.
• Girls' clitoris should be cut (per Muhammad's words in Book 41, Kitab Al-Adab, Hadith 5251).
• A woman can have 1 husband, but a man can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.
• A man can unilaterally divorce his wife but a woman needs her husband's consent to divorce.
• A man can beat his wife for insubordination.
• Testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman.
• A woman who has been raped cannot testify in court against her rapist(s).
• A woman's testimony in court, allowed only in property cases, carries half the weight of a man's.
• A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits.
• A woman cannot drive a car, as it leads to fitnah (upheaval).
• A woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative.
• Meat to be eaten must come from animals that have been sacrificed to Allah - i.e., be Halal.
• Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.

[David88vert]

lol... "anything goes" without religion... not really worthy of comment.


It's true - an atheist is accountable to no deity by very definition. Whatever that person sees as good or evil doesn't really matter, they can choose to be evil without worry that it will affect them after death, and if they kill someone else, what does it really matter, since life has no real meaning?

I've given you Dahmer's statement twice earlier in this thread, and you've ignored it twice. You probably need a new thread for atheism, as it's not Islam.



Political influence is a major victory. Islam has influence within the american government, the strongest nation in the world. That is a victory.


President Ronald Reagan met the leaders of the Islamic Jihad at the White House in 1985. Did you believe that they just gained access to the US government after 9/11?



Promoting Islam is promoting criminal activity. That is the point. Islam should not be promoted at all. If Muhammad was alive today and living his life the way he preached in the united states... he would be on par with this guy.... and jailed.
(photo of Ariel Castro)


So, just believing in a religion is now criminal activity? What country do you live in? You might want to move to the US, where we do not criminalize belief in a deity.

If Muhammed was alive today and was living in the US, he would not be prosecuted for his religious beliefs. If he broke the laws of the US, then he would be prosecuted for breaking those laws, as an individual, not the entire religion.

Ariel Castro has nothing to do with Islam, and using his likeness means that you are resorting to sensationalistic tactics that the Democrats love.




A political foothold is the best strategy for world domination. That is what theyre seeking. We will never fall to warships landing on our beaches.... we can only fall from within. The war is being waged.....

I understand what you are trying to say here, and I would agree that radical extremists from all groups (religious and non-religious) recognize that this is the only effective strategy with the US. So, shouldn't the attacks work in the opposite manner - to drive us away from them?



CIA finds 1 in 5 flagged job applicants come from Hamas, Hezbollah, al Qaeda - Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/2/cia-finds-1-5-job-applicants-hail-hamas-hezbollah-/)

Don't we do the same to them? Does this report surprise you? We've already agreed that there are radicals out there.





We need limited government that doesnt attempt to control our lives. I'd love to see proof of genocide worse than that of government and religion.

You know that I agree 100% with the underlined statement.

As for the genocides, look up these:
Moriori Genocide - Tribal conflict, wiped out the peaceful group. No government or religion involved.

Rwandan Genocide - The poor rose up and killed the rich, Hundreds of thousands were killed—the preferred method of execution being the machete, as ammunition was too expensive and difficult to come by. Rape, mutilation, and the deliberate spread of disease were also used as tools of terror. Between 500K and 1M died. No religion or government.

Irish Potato Famine - Over 1M died. The wealthy British kicked the poor Irish farmers off the land, and let them starve. I slisted on some (but not all lists) as genocide.

Congoese Pygmy Genocide - Hunted and eaten by the Movement for the Liberation of the Congo during the civil war in the Congo. Still be starved and dying out.

Inca Genocide - Francisco Pizarro slaughtered them for gold and precious metals.

Aztec Genocide - Hernán Cortés slaughtered them for their gold.

American Indian Genocide - Many were slaughtered for land.

There are many more. To blame one thing - government, religion, guns, etc for al the killing is foolish.



They were a part of their governments. There's really not that much difference in religion and government, they both serve relative functions with similar interests. Things become chaotic when either of their roles are not limited. Limited government and limited religion can serve humanity well. It's when they over reach that the problems begin.

On this, we mostly agree. You don't want a government run by religious leaders, or a religion run by the government. That is in line with how the founding fathers setup our American government.




No, i think the 2.6m muslims in america are meek and incapable of separating themselves from the radicals. Even far removed from the oppression and shielded by the safety of american law, they still claim allegiance to the radical religion. In the event the extremist started migrating here, they would have the political support of the muslims that exist here. The hive mind of religious groups is very strong.

You believe that 2.6 million Americans are just suddenly going to turn on everything that they were taught their entire lives, and just fall in line with those who they have disagreed with all their lives? Do you believe that would happen if we substitute "Christians" in place of "Muslims"?

I don't really think that we are going to come to any real agreements or understandings here, so when you are ready to get back to discussion of the scriptures, I will join back in the discussion.

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Agnosticism says, "It is unknown if there are gods". That is a lack of belief, and nothing more.
Atheism states, "There is no God/gods." That's a belief and a specific denial of the existence of God.
Atheism and Agnosticism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy) (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/)

If you do not believe this, take it up with University of North Texas sociologists David A. Williamson and George Yancey, and David Silverman and Dennis Horvitz of the American Atheists, a powerful lobbying group.

http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/files/2011/03/rightsmall.jpg

As an atheist myself, you are absolutely right. I totally forgot what atheism means. I mean, it doesn't really matter that the word literally means "no belief in deities". We should just take powerful lobbying groups on their word all the time. Fuck me, right?

You probably weren't aware. Which is fine. It's a common misconception, even within the atheist community, that atheism implies a belief.

[David88vert]

As an atheist myself, you are absolutely right. I totally forgot what atheism means. I mean, it doesn't really matter that the word literally means "no belief in deities". We should just take powerful lobbying groups on their word all the time. Fuck me, right?

You probably weren't aware. Which is fine. It's a common misconception, even within the atheist community, that atheism implies a belief.

I was waiting for that response.

There is a huge difference in a statement of certainty that there is no god, and a statement that you do not know if there is a god or not. Stating, "I don't believe in a god", can fit either in the atheist or agnostic camp. A statement that says, "There is no god", is a declaration that can only be attributed to faith, as it is impossible to prove the existence of an infinite being, while we are limited to exploring our finite world.

atheist: a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings
Atheist | Define Atheist at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist)

agnostic - a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience
Agnostic | What is the Definition of Agnostic? | Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agnostic)

So, are you saying that we shouldn't take the billboards seriously? If that is the case, why did they spend so much to do so many different versions of them?
There are dozens of different ones, all communicating the same message....
https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=962&bih=646&q=american+atheist+billboards&oq=american+athe&gs_l=img.3.5.0l9j0i5.3515.6573.0.11958.13.9.0.4.4. 0.119.496.8j1.9.0....0...1ac.1.26.img..0.13.553.pG gFhoMNUC4

Here's the news today:
Fox News host: Atheists 'don't have to live here' – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs (http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/09/09/fox-news-host-atheists-dont-have-to-live-here/?hpt=hp_t3)

"I, for one, am tired of those Christians, like Ms. Perino, who think that equality is somehow un-American," Silverman said. "If Ms. Perino doesn't like being only equal, it is she who will have to leave America to some other country that doesn't value religious liberty." - David Silverman, president of the American Atheists

He is arguing that the words, "under God", need to be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance and is using religious liberty as his argument. Isn't that claiming that atheism should be treated the same way as a mainstream religion? Furthermore, if there is no God, then why would atheists even care about those two words?

And, if you don't like the American Atheists, there is still the American Humanist Association.

This topic should really be moved to its own thread though.

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I was waiting for that response.

atheist: a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings
Atheist | Define Atheist at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist)


I was hoping you'd pull the definition for me. Thank you for confirming.

[Sinfix_15]

So, just believing in a religion is now criminal activity? What country do you live in? You might want to move to the US, where we do not criminalize belief in a deity.

If Muhammed was alive today and was living in the US, he would not be prosecuted for his religious beliefs. If he broke the laws of the US, then he would be prosecuted for breaking those laws, as an individual, not the entire religion.

Ariel Castro has nothing to do with Islam, and using his likeness means that you are resorting to sensationalistic tactics that the Democrats love.



Muhammad would be viewed as a pedophile and rapist. He viewed women as objects that he could own and enslave, just like Castro. He would be put in prison, just like Castro.

Sahih chapter 8
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him.

[David88vert]

Muhammad would be viewed as a pedophile and rapist. He viewed women as objects that he could own and enslave, just like Castro. He would be put in prison, just like Castro.

Sahih chapter 8
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him.


Like I said, he could only be prosecuted for any crimes that he actually committed, and only if here in the US - not for religious beliefs, as religious beliefs are not crimes. You can have dreams of killing thousands of people as part of a religious ceremony, but unless you make plans to do so, you have not committed a prosecutable crime. The moment that a person formulates such a plan, you know that I am right there with you in calling for their trial and subsequent punishment f convicted.

So, do you have any reason to believe that Castro was secretly a Muslim, and was acting on religious teachings?

[Sinfix_15]

Like I said, he could only be prosecuted for any crimes that he actually committed, and only if here in the US - not for religious beliefs, as religious beliefs are not crimes. You can have dreams of killing thousands of people as part of a religious ceremony, but unless you make plans to do so, you have not committed a prosecutable crime. The moment that a person formulates such a plan, you know that I am right there with you in calling for their trial and subsequent punishment f convicted.

So, do you have any reason to believe that Castro was secretly a Muslim, and was acting on religious teachings?

Nobody said Castro was a muslim.

Just comparing one rapist pedophile who enslaves women to another rapist pedophile who enslaves women.

If Muhammad was alive today and came to the US with 9 year old brides, he should either be jailed or should have not been allowed to come here in the first place. The same thing i propose for all muslims. If your religion beliefs break american laws, then stay where ever you are to practice them.

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If Muhammad was alive today and came to the US with 9 year old brides, he should either be jailed or should have not been allowed to come here in the first place. The same thing i propose for all muslims. If your religion beliefs break american laws, then stay where ever you are to practice them.

So what about all the Muslims who don't have 9 year old brides. What do you propose we do with them?

[David88vert]

Nobody said Castro was a muslim.

Just comparing one rapist pedophile who enslaves women to another rapist pedophile who enslaves women.

If Muhammad was alive today and came to the US with 9 year old brides, he should either be jailed or should have not been allowed to come here in the first place. The same thing i propose for all muslims. If your religion beliefs break american laws, then stay where ever you are to practice them.

Are you saying that our current laws and enforcement are allowing Muslims to come to the US right now with 9 year old brides? Are you aware of any Muslims in the US that have underage brides currently, and are not currently being prosecuted by our legal system?
Where are our current laws allowing Muslims to get away with criminal activity within our borders?

[Sinfix_15]

So what about all the Muslims who don't have 9 year old brides. What do you propose we do with them?

Nothing. Quit promoting Islam. Quit defending Islam. Quit giving Islam political influence. This religion goes against the laws and values of our country, it is legal..... but it should not be endorsed in any way. Our president should not be saying "the future must not belong to those who slander a ( rapist, murdering pedophile who enslaves women and disfigures enemies) " Our president shouldnt be defending the Muslim political leaders in other countries when their people become wise enough to throw them out. Our president shouldnt be coming to the aid of Islamic terrorists in their quest to overthrow their government, no matter how bad their government is.

There's no benefit to promoting Islam, a religion that is inherently criminal in our country. It is legal, if you want to practice it within the law, that's fine. I'm sick and tired of seeing the pro Islam campaign being held by our politicians, while at the same time they spit on our own values. If only they held our constitution as sacred as they did the Koran.

[Sinfix_15]

Are you saying that our current laws and enforcement are allowing Muslims to come to the US right now with 9 year old brides? Are you aware of any Muslims in the US that have underage brides currently, and are not currently being prosecuted by our legal system?
Where are our current laws allowing Muslims to get away with criminal activity within our borders?

The religion itself promotes criminal activity. I am not saying stateside muslims are criminals, though i wish they would realize my initial statement.

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So should we take the same approach to Christianity?

[Sinfix_15]

So should we take the same approach to Christianity?

Already have.

Care to show me any illegal activity endorsed by christianity?

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Rape? Baby murder? Slavery?

What approach do you think we've already taken?

[Sinfix_15]

Rape? Baby murder? Slavery?

Show me these instructions in the bible.

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Show me these instructions in the bible.

Surely I shouldn't have to do the work of a religious scholar like yourself.

[Sinfix_15]

Surely I shouldn't have to do the work of a religious scholar like yourself.

How far into typing your response did you realize you were a hypocrite and then decide to offer a deflection like this?

I'm just baiting you to say the same things you've already said. The only thing i have to do to make you look stupid is get you to open up and speak. So by all means, oblige me....

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What approach to Christianity do you think we've taken that we haven't taken to Islam?

[Sinfix_15]

What approach to Christianity do you think we've taken that we haven't taken to Islam?

I still want to talk about the rape, baby killing and slavery that you're opposed to.

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I still want to talk about the rape, baby killing and slavery that you're opposed to.

We're not talking about that. We're talking about this approach

[Sinfix_15]

We're not talking about that. We're talking about this approach

Political influence...............

"We are not a christian nation"
"The future must not belong to those who slander the profit of Islam"

We separated church and state, time to separate mosque and state.

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Political influence...............

"We are not a christian nation"
"The future must not belong to those who slander the profit of Islam"

We separated church and state, time to separate mosque and state.

What's the difference between a mosque and a church?

Does the separation of church and state only apply when Christians walk through the door?

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Sinfix. Looks like they caught you in that stupid looking God Bless America shirt.

http://www.upworthy.com/a-boy-makes-anti-muslim-comments-in-front-of-an-american-soldier-the-soldiers-reply-priceless?g=2

[Sinfix_15]

wow...... This guy nailed it. Everything that ever needed to be said about Islam is in this video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Oz267A6jhbw