the idea of money is crazy

[ssonsk]

Has anyone ever thought about how money works? Billions of people get up, put aside majority of their day, and practically do away with their freedom for it. What keeps money so important? Like what makes it so valuable that you can trade it for anything?

[C230K]

You get up and howl about America and democracy,
There is no America, there is no democracy,
We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies,
The world is a college of corporations,
Inexorably determined by the immutable bylaws of business,
The world is a business.

[.blank cd]

What keeps money so important? Like what makes it so valuable that you can trade it for anything?

An idea.

[Sinfix_15]

Has anyone ever thought about how money works? Billions of people get up, put aside majority of their day, and practically do away with their freedom for it. What keeps money so important? Like what makes it so valuable that you can trade it for anything?

Quit trying to see over the fence, slave.

[.blank cd]

What fence? Lol. Money isn't some secret concept. They teach you what it is in high school

[Echonova]

Money is nothing more than a representation of your time, and what your time is worth. What other system would take it's place?

[bu villain]

It's simply a medium that makes bartering easier. Don't think a piece of paper is what makes people get up everyday and go to work because it's not. Everyone would still be slaving away if money didn't exist.

[Sinfix_15]

It's simply a medium that makes bartering easier. Don't think a piece of paper is what makes people get up everyday and go to work because it's not. Everyone would still be slaving away if money didn't exist.

It's only slaving when the currency is controlled by a ruling authority. It's not slaving for me to trade you two hours of work for a pair of shoes that you made. It's slaving for me to have to pay someone a currency that they created just to exist in this country.

[ISAtlanta300]

It's simply a medium that makes bartering easier. Don't think a piece of paper is what makes people get up everyday and go to work because it's not. Everyone would still be slaving away if money didn't exist.

True... but unfortunately its value and what it thinks your 'time and labor' is 'worth' is determined by someone else.....

[Sinfix_15]

What fence? Lol. Money isn't some secret concept. They teach you what it is in high school

metaphors are too complex for your simple mind to understand. Run along child.

[Echonova]

True... but unfortunately its value and what it thinks your 'time and labor' is 'worth' is determined by someone else.....I agree and disagree with this...

[.blank cd]

True... but unfortunately its value and what it thinks your 'time and labor' is 'worth' is determined by someone else.....

When you get up in the morning and do whatever you do for a paycheck for 8 hrs, you've decided that your time is worth exactly what you've made in that 8 hrs.

[.blank cd]

metaphors are too complex for your simple mind to understand. Run along child.

I've seen more complex metaphors on truck stop bathroom stalls. Don't give yourself too much credit.

[Sinfix_15]

I've seen more complex metaphors on truck stop bathroom stalls. Don't give yourself too much credit.

I didnt say i threw the ball high, just noted that it went over your head.

[.blank cd]

I didnt say i threw the ball high, just noted that it went over your head.

If you say so

[Bacon]

When you get up in the morning and do whatever you do for a paycheck for 8 hrs, you've decided that your time is worth exactly what you've made in that 8 hrs.

Or 24 hours at a time in my case.

Sent from my Galaxy Note II

[.blank cd]

Or 24 hours at a time in my case.

Sent from my Galaxy Note II

Fuck all that. Lol.

[Bacon]

Fuck all that. Lol.

I wouldnt trade it for any career in the world with any amount of money.

Sent from my Galaxy Note II

[.blank cd]

You get a certain number of days on, then days off right?

[Scotsman]

I agree and disagree with this...i agree to disagree

[Echonova]

i agree to disagreeI disagree with your agreement to agree to disagree.

[Bacon]

You get a certain number of days on, then days off right?

24 on and 48 off. Extra shifts here and there.

Sent from my Galaxy Note II

[.blank cd]

24 on and 48 off. Extra shifts here and there.

Sent from my Galaxy Note II

Well that doesn't seem so bad.

[Bacon]

Well that doesn't seem so bad.

It's not.

Sent from my Galaxy Note II

[MachNU]

I disagree with your agreement to agree to disagree.

I agree with your statement of disagreeing to agree with your agreement to disagree. Agreed?

[Vteckidd]

Money just represents an object of value for trading goods and services. We don't workfor money we work for goods and services we want to acquire .

Money makes it more efficient to trade that's all.

[MachNU]

Money just represents an object of value for trading goods and services. We don't workfor money we work for goods and services we want to acquire .

Money makes it more efficient to trade that's all.

Fuck you. <3

[Sinfix_15]

Money just represents an object of value for trading goods and services. We don't workfor money we work for goods and services we want to acquire .

Money makes it more efficient to trade that's all.

Are any of these goods and services overvalued?

Are we forced to purchase any of these goods and services?

For the goods and services we are forced to purchase, is the created currency the only method in which we are allowed to pay for them?

Does the group responsible for creating the currency, that also forces you to pay for a service using only that same currency, give the same prices for the same goods and services to the everyone?

Does the group responsible for creating the currency charge you the currency for things you need to survive, yet that they do not own?

[Vteckidd]

Are any of these goods and services overvalued?

Are we forced to purchase any of these goods and services?

For the goods and services we are forced to purchase, is the created currency the only method in which we are allowed to pay for them?

Does the group responsible for creating the currency, that also forces you to pay for a service using only that same currency, give the same prices for the same goods and services to the everyone?

Does the group responsible for creating the currency charge you the currency for things you need to survive, yet that they do not own?

I never said it wasnt manipulated or being undermined :)

The OP stated "What keeps money so important? Like what makes it so valuable that you can trade it for anything?

I was merely explaining that we dont work for MONEY per se, We work to be able to exchange labor or time for goods and services. Money merely makes it easier to trade. 500 years ago we didnt use money, we bartered. Ill trade you a goat for 3 chickens, 2 oz of gold for a house, etc. The problem was that without a universal currency, different areas, dialects, cultures had a problem trading. A goat is worth more to a farmer than a city dweller. Money merely made a currency that was accepted (post civil war actually) as a trading vehicle. It had universal value to it.

It allowed the globalization of economies as well.

For a long time money was tied to the Gold Standard, when we went off that is when the true monetary policy and manipulation took hold. However it has been going on for a long time. IIRC it was Hamilton who eradicated the central bank, but then the FED RESERVE was formed in the early 1900s and we have been kinda screwed since then.

There is a slight conspiracy slant to this, look past it, but most of the information is correct.

The Money Masters (1996) [FULL DOCUMENTARY] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDtBSiI13fE)

[Sinfix_15]

I never said it wasnt manipulated or being undermined :)

The OP stated "What keeps money so important? Like what makes it so valuable that you can trade it for anything?

I was merely explaining that we dont work for MONEY per se, We work to be able to exchange labor or time for goods and services. Money merely makes it easier to trade. 500 years ago we didnt use money, we bartered. Ill trade you a goat for 3 chickens, 2 oz of gold for a house, etc. The problem was that without a universal currency, different areas, dialects, cultures had a problem trading. A goat is worth more to a farmer than a city dweller. Money merely made a currency that was accepted (post civil war actually) as a trading vehicle. It had universal value to it.

It allowed the globalization of economies as well.

For a long time money was tied to the Gold Standard, when we went off that is when the true monetary policy and manipulation took hold. However it has been going on for a long time. IIRC it was Hamilton who eradicated the central bank, but then the FED RESERVE was formed in the early 1900s and we have been kinda screwed since then.

There is a slight conspiracy slant to this, look past it, but most of the information is correct.

The Money Masters (1996) [FULL DOCUMENTARY] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDtBSiI13fE)

Just making conversation is all.

My answer to "what keeps money so important?" is simple, the government designed it that way. Participating in this currency system is not optional.

[.blank cd]

Just making conversation is all.

My answer to "what keeps money so important?" is simple, the government designed it that way. Participating in this currency system is not optional.

It is optional. You can still barter if you want.

[Sinfix_15]

It is optional. You can still barter if you want.

It's not optional. Everyone is required to participate in the monetary system. As the saying goes... "only two things are certain, death and taxes"

[.blank cd]

It's not optional. Everyone is required to participate in the monetary system. As the saying goes... "only two things are certain, death and taxes"

Don't make any money, barter for everything, live on a reservation.

[Sinfix_15]

Don't make any money, barter for everything, live on a reservation.

If i moved to land that i owned and built a home with nothing but materials gathered and fed myself with only the food i gathered, i would still have to pay property taxes, hunting license, fishing license...

[.blank cd]

If i moved to land that i owned and built a home with nothing but materials gathered and fed myself with only the food i gathered, i would still have to pay property taxes, hunting license, fishing license...

You don't need a license to hunt on your own property.

Money isn't a government conspiracy. It's been around for thousands and thousands of years.

[Vteckidd]

Money wasnt always a government conspiracy. It's been around for thousands and thousands of years.

Fixed.

Money, as we know it now, is manipulated , and is used well outside the way our system was ever designed.

QE, Fractional Reserve Banking prove this

[Sinfix_15]

You don't need a license to hunt on your own property.

Money isn't a government conspiracy. It's been around for thousands and thousands of years.

The way our money is handled and manipulated is very much a government conspiracy. Look no further than the word's of presidents themselves to find proof. The government needs you to need them. As long as theyre the middle man for all monetary transactions, they have power over everyone.

[Vteckidd]

Money isn't a government conspiracy. It's been around for thousands and thousands of years.

Then why do we need a Federal Reserve? Why does the govt inject fake money to avert crisis?

Strictly speaking, money should only be available based upon what is in circulation, but that is not what happens. Banks leverage 80 times what they have on deposit. The FED has injected trillions of dollars that the printed out of thin air. This is not sound monetary policy, and it never has been.

[.blank cd]

Fixed.

Money, as we know it now, is manipulated , and is used well outside the way our system was ever designed.

QE, Fractional Reserve Banking prove this

Fractional reserve banking proves that money is a government conspiracy? Lol

FRB existed well before government monetary institutions. I don't get how you think one proves the other, explain?

[.blank cd]

Then why do we need a Federal Reserve? Why does the govt inject fake money to avert crisis?

Strictly speaking, money should only be available based upon what is in circulation, but that is not what happens. Banks leverage 80 times what they have on deposit. The FED has injected trillions of dollars that the printed out of thin air. This is not sound monetary policy, and it never has been.

Expansionary monetary policy has been happening for YEARS, how is it all of the sudden not sound monetary policy?

[.blank cd]

If y'all spent a quarter of the time reading books as you do the whole time reading opinion blogs and editorials from people who think they know what they're talking about, y'all would be brilliant individuals.

Stop wasting your energy finding ways to fear the government, and instead, devote that energy into understanding it.

[Vteckidd]

If y'all spent a quarter of the time reading books as you do the whole time reading opinion blogs and editorials from people who think they know what they're talking about, y'all would be brilliant individuals.

Stop wasting your energy finding ways to fear the government, and instead, devote that energy into understanding it.

with all due respect, I have spent countless hours reading all sides of an opinion. I even prefaced my link with "theres some conspiracy crap in the video, but read through it"

You cannot argue facts, I almost never post opinion.

The facts are that the money we have now is being manipulated, why do you think a Fed Reserve exists? Why does it need to be there?

Why is there trillions of dollars pumped into an economy that DIDNT NEED TO BE THERE?

Why is the dolalr worth less now than it was 10 years ago?

Why is Gold hovering near $2000 an ounce? (it was for quite some time).

I really dont think you understand the US and global monetary policy, and as such, you cant form a debatable opinion, so you resort to claiming we are the dumb ones.

Fractional reserve banking, at its core, is money manipulation. Unless you can give me $10 and I give you back $50 out of thin air.....................

[Sinfix_15]

If y'all spent a quarter of the time reading books as you do the whole time reading opinion blogs and editorials from people who think they know what they're talking about, y'all would be brilliant individuals.

Stop wasting your energy finding ways to fear the government, and instead, devote that energy into understanding it.

Says someone offering an opinion, who thinks they know what theyre talking about.

Will reading books really change my mind?
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQjNDux0S3B5RVgw9JSasY0QRhpGDQ2l 8kXDdkjZaUmK1YkdB2y

[Vteckidd]

Expansionary monetary policy has been happening for YEARS, how is it all of the sudden not sound monetary policy?

you tell me. Something happened after WW2................... i dont have to give all the answers :)

It isnt sound, look at the FACTS. I dont know how someone can say it works when you saw firsthand what caused the collapse of 2008. Im not sure you understand what you are talking about.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-problem-fractional-reserve-banking

Theres a problem inherent with having a currency tied to nothing of value. *hint*

[Vteckidd]

If y'all spent a quarter of the time reading books as you do the whole time reading opinion blogs and editorials from people who think they know what they're talking about, y'all would be brilliant individuals.



Oh and FYI, heres some of the things i have read and watched:
Crash Proof- Peter Schiff
How an Economy Grows and Why It Crashes- Peter Schiff
Catastrophe - Dick Morris
Capitalism and Freedom- Milton Friedman
The Long Tail- Chris Anderson
back To work- Bill Clinton

Watch Money masters, Too Big to Fail, Inside Job.

Tell me, have you read any of those books? Seen any of those movies? Thats a fraction of the research ive done over the years. I also belong to several discussion groups with guys on very prominent forums (that know WAY more than I do) .

Please, dont insinuate im not educated on the subject matter.

[.blank cd]

with all due respect, I have spent countless hours reading all sides of an opinion.I don't read opinions at all.


The facts are that the money we have now is being manipulated, why do you think a Fed Reserve exists? Why does it need to be there?To manipulate money supplies and interest rates.


Why is there trillions of dollars pumped into an economy that DIDNT NEED TO BE THERE?Whether it needs to be there or not is your opinion, but money is printed to manipulate interest rates to promote economic growth, or stability in this case. Doesn't mean money is a conspiracy, because people know how it works.


I really dont think you understand the US and global monetary policy, and as such, you cant form a debatable opinionI guess I should get my money back then. Lol.

I dont have a debatable opinion at all. Instead of wondering why we print money, I like to read exactly why. If you think we should go back to a gold standard, then maybe you should be an advocate for that, but gold is a pretty finite resource, and economies are growing faster than gold could be mined.

[.blank cd]

Says someone offering an opinion, who thinks they know what theyre talking about.

Will reading books really change my mind?
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQjNDux0S3B5RVgw9JSasY0QRhpGDQ2l 8kXDdkjZaUmK1YkdB2y

A book you've never read, but won't pick up because you have a bias against it.

[Vteckidd]

I don't read opinions at all.



Then you dont read anything on economics.

Money supplies dont need to be manipulated, do you know what the word MANIPULATE even means?

Are you saying there werent interest rates before the FED Existed?

The Fed May Be Miscounting the Money Supply - Businessweek (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-03-28/the-fed-may-be-miscounting-the-money-supply)

Why We Aren't Seeing Inflation Yet (http://beginnersinvest.about.com/od/inflationrate/a/why-arent-we-seeing-inflation.htm)

Hyperinflation is coming, but itll probable happen AFTER Obama leaves office, when I TOLD you so wont mean much. The whole reason the economy is stagnate right now, is because of the FED Monetary policy.

Its already hitting mainstream, you just dont know it or know what to look for. Food prices , gas prices,

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/06/14/wholesale-prices-inflation-gas-food/2422699/

[.blank cd]

Then you dont read anything on economics.There is plenty about economics that isn't opinions or editorials.

[Sinfix_15]

A book you've never read, but won't pick up because you have a bias against it.

Every thought that crosses your mind is conjecture.

[.blank cd]

Every thought that crosses your mind is conjecture.

So you've read it?

[bu villain]

I wouldn't want to live in a country that couldn't regulate the supply of currency. Look at the economic conditions when we were on the gold standard. There were economic depressions regularly, you had runs on banks and panics . The whole reason the Fed was created in 1913 was in response to this. Dollars stopped being redeemable for gold after the Great Depression. People saw what chaos the gold standard could cause and said enough. I think the fact that 2008 was the first time we had a depression and we have had no bank runs in the last 80 years is pretty convincing evidence that our current system is better than the alternative.

[Vteckidd]

There were economic depressions regularly, you had runs on banks and panics . The whole reason the Fed was created in 1913 was in response to this.
100% false

FED RESERVE was 1913, Great Depression was the 1930s. The Federal Reserve CAUSES the booms and busts, the Fed Reserve was around during the great depression, it was formed BEFORE.

80 years? We went off the gold standard in the 70s.

What has happened to the national debt since then?

What happened to the US dollar since then?

The FED is the one artificially controlling the market, it created the 2008 BUST, it created the tech bubble, it created the 90s recession, the carter recession. I really think you guys dont know history. We boom and bust about every 10 years.

[Vteckidd]

I wouldn't want to live in a country that couldn't regulate the supply of currency. Look at the economic conditions when we were on the gold standard. There were economic depressions regularly, you had runs on banks and panics . The whole reason the Fed was created in 1913 was in response to this. Dollars stopped being redeemable for gold after the Great Depression. People saw what chaos the gold standard could cause and said enough. I think the fact that 2008 was the first time we had a depression and we have had no bank runs in the last 80 years is pretty convincing evidence that our current system is better than the alternative.

There were MASSIVE bank runs. Are you just trolling or selective memory?

The only difference is banks were given TRILLIONS of dollars to remain open, than at the FDIC bailed most consumers out. The only difference between 2008 and 1930s were that we had trillions to artificially print, in the 1930s, we couldnt because we were tied to the gold standard.

you traded 5-10 years of hardship, for 20 years of mediocrity.

The Federal Reserve tries to control the currency by injecting fake money into a system. When the dow plummets, they throw 5 trillion in fake money into the system. Which is why you are seeing massive food price spikes, gas prices rising , consumer prices going up, most of the money is still parked on the side, but eventually, itll make its way back into the economy. They cant just make it vanish

[Vteckidd]

Selective memory I guess



On Tuesday, 11 March 2008, a bank run began on the securities and banking firm Bear Stearns. While Bear Stearns was not an ordinary deposit-taking bank, it had financed huge long-term investments by selling short-maturity bonds (Asset Backed Commercial Paper), making it vulnerable to panic on the part of its bondholders. Credit officers of rival firms began to say that Bear Stearns would not be able to make good on its obligations. Within two days, Bear Stearns's capital base of $17 billion had dwindled to $2 billion in cash, and Bear Stearns told government officials that it saw little option other than to file for bankruptcy the next day. By 07:00 Friday, the Federal Reserve decided to lend Bear Stearns money, the first time since the Great Depression that it had lent to a nonbank. Stocks sank, and that day JPMorgan Chase began an effort to buy Bear Stearns as part of a government-sponsored bailout. The deal was arranged by Sunday in an effort to calm markets before overseas markets opened.

On 11 July 2008, U.S. mortgage lender IndyMac Bank was seized by federal regulators. The bank relied heavily on higher cost, less stable, brokered deposits, as well as secured borrowings, to fund its operations and focused on stated income and other aggressively underwritten loans in areas with rapidly escalating home prices, particularly in California and Florida. A highly stressed institution, IndyMac's capital was being lost to downgrades as the poor quality of their book was revealed. Regulators at the Office of Thrift Supervision (OTS) had allowed the bank to misstate its financial condition, avoiding regulatory intervention. On June 26, Sen. Charles E. Schumer released to the media letters he sent to the regulators, which warned the bank might not be viable. In the days following the release, depositors pulled out approximately 7.5% of the bank's deposits. IndyMac and the OTS regulators who had allowed the bank backdate its books blamed Schumer's letters for the bank's demise. These regulators resigned or were fired amidst a Treasury Department investigation. IndyMac's failure is expected to cost the FDIC more about $9 billion Uninsured depositors have lost an estimated $270 million

On 25 September 2008, the Office of Thrift Supervision was forced to shut down Washington Mutual, the largest savings and loan in the United States and the sixth-largest overall financial institution, on a Thursday due to a massive run. Over the previous 10 days, customers had withdrawn $16.7 billion in deposits. This is currently the biggest bank failure in American financial history. Normally, banks are seized on Fridays to allow the FDIC the weekend to prepare the failed bank for takeover by another bank. However, WaMu's size led regulators to shut it down on a Thursday.

On 26 September 2008, Wachovia, the fourth-largest bank in the United States, lost $5 billion in deposits—about one percent of its total deposits—when several large customers (mostly businesses and institutional investors) drew down their accounts below the $100,000 limit for FDIC deposit insurance. This practice is known in banking circles as a "silent run." The Office of the Comptroller of the Currency and the FDIC were both concerned that Wachovia wouldn't have enough short-term funding to open for business on 29 September—which would have resulted in a failure dwarfing that of WaMu just a day earlier. They pressured Wachovia to put itself up for sale over the weekend. Initially, Wachovia was to sell its commercial banking operations to Citigroup, but eventually the entire company was sold to Wells Fargo.

On 6 October 2008, Landsbanki, Iceland's second largest bank, was put into government receivership. The Icelandic government used emergency powers to dismiss the board of directors of Landsbanki and took control of the failed institution. Prime Minister Geir Haarde also rushed measures through parliament to give the country's largest bank, Kaupthing, a £400m loan. In addition, Iceland pleaded with Russia to extend 3bn in credit as western countries refused to help.[23] With over 5bn in savings held by Britons in Landsbanki, the Icelandic collapse threatens private citizens in the United Kingdom as well as companies in Iceland.

October 2009 bank run on DSB Bank in the Netherlands after bank run caused by Pieter Lakeman.

Banks were MUCH larger than in the 1930s so they were bought up by other less exposed banks. But there were MASSIVE runs

[.blank cd]

100% false

FED RESERVE was 1913, Great Depression was the 1930s. The Federal Reserve CAUSES the booms and busts, the Fed Reserve was around during the great depression, it was formed BEFORE. Ummm

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1907


The FED is the one artificially controlling the market, it created the 2008 BUST, it created the tech bubble, it created the 90s recession, the carter recession.

LOL

[Vteckidd]

Ummm

Panic of 1907 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1907)



LOL

Typical response, "LOL" or some other response with nothing to add.

The Great Depression was not 1907, try again. Here, ill use Wikipedia
Great Depression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression)

This just shows that you really have no idea what you are talking about. Its futile for me to even try when you cant comprehend the easiest of historic events.

And yes, the FED Reserve is responsible for the booms and busts, if you had any simple economic training, you would know this.

Answer my previous question, name me some books and articles you have researched for your knowledge. I named mine

[RandomGuy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge4oufdIOMc

[.blank cd]

Typical response, "LOL" or some other response with nothing to add.I said LOL because it was funny and there's no evidence to support that.


The Great Depression was not 1907, try again. Here, ill use Wikipedia
Great Depression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression)

This just shows that you really have no idea what you are talking about. Its futile for me to even try when you cant comprehend the easiest of historic events.I didn't say anything about the Great Depression. The panic of 1907 was what created the federal reserve.



Answer my previous question, name me some books and articles you have researched for your knowledge. I named mine

An Inquiry Into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations.

[Vteckidd]

I didn't say anything about the Great Depression. The panic of 1907 was what created the federal reserve.




an assumption i never claimed or made. Not sure why you insinuated i was wrong.

theres tons of evidence to support it, but i dont know why i should post it, because you wont believe it anyway. Youll post LOL or use a strawman or insinuate how dumb I am :)

[bu villain]

100% false

FED RESERVE was 1913, Great Depression was the 1930s. The Federal Reserve CAUSES the booms and busts, the Fed Reserve was around during the great depression, it was formed BEFORE.

Not false, I never said the Fed was created in response to the Great Depression, I said it was in response to depressions (not necessarily the Great one) and panics and I stated it was started in 1913, so obviously that was before the Great Depression as well. As I alluded to and blank.cd explicitly stated, the Panic of 1907 was the primary driver of the Fed creation. But the Great Depression wasn't our first economic depression.


80 years? We went off the gold standard in the 70s.

I know I don't have to tell you this but 1933 is when citizens could no longer redeem paper dollars for gold. You may remember the government actually forced people to turn over their gold. The 1970s date you are referring to is when we stop letting foreign governments exchange dollars for gold. Obviously the 80 years I referenced is about our domestic policy since that was the much bigger factor as foreign governments pretty much always wanted more dollars, not more gold.


What has happened to the national debt since then?

What happened to the US dollar since then?

That is more a factor of spending policies than the Fed. Even a country on the gold standard can borrow and spend money it doesn't otherwise have. Obviously we have had a national debt well before we got off the gold standard.


The FED is the one artificially controlling the market, it created the 2008 BUST, it created the tech bubble, it created the 90s recession, the carter recession. I really think you guys dont know history. We boom and bust about every 10 years.

Yes it is artificially controlling the market. That's the sole purpose it was created for. I don't follow your logic on how the Fed created those bubbles/recessions. How did the Fed force people to dump their money into Pets.com? Yes, boom and bust is part of capitalism. The Fed's job is to help make those booms and busts less extreme and thus less damaging.


There were MASSIVE bank runs. Are you just trolling or selective memory?

Neither. There were no banks runs that threatened the whole financial system. Banks went out of business because they bet on CDO's and the like, not because too many people wanted to cash out their checking accounts.


The only difference is banks were given TRILLIONS of dollars to remain open, than at the FDIC bailed most consumers out. The only difference between 2008 and 1930s were that we had trillions to artificially print, in the 1930s, we couldnt because we were tied to the gold standard.

And that's the best argument for why we need the Fed. 2008 would have been a lot worse if we couldn't manipulate the money market to ease the pain. That's exactly why in 1933 citizens could no longer exchange dollars for gold and gold was being taken by the gov.


you traded 5-10 years of hardship, for 20 years of mediocrity.

Yes exactly! That is the entire goal.


The Federal Reserve tries to control the currency by injecting fake money into a system. When the dow plummets, they throw 5 trillion in fake money into the system. Which is why you are seeing massive food price spikes, gas prices rising , consumer prices going up, most of the money is still parked on the side, but eventually, itll make its way back into the economy. They cant just make it vanish

Actually some of the money can just vanish. Lots of the money "printed" never actually gets physically printed and it doesn't go into circulation. It is simply a number on the ledger for bank reserves which allows the banks to lend out a portion as loans. Once the loan is repaid, you don't have to keep the "printed" money on the ledger anymore.

[.blank cd]

Yes it is artificially controlling the market. That's the sole purpose it was created for. I don't follow your logic on how the Fed created those bubbles/recessions. How did the Fed force people to dump their money into Pets.com? Yes, boom and bust is part of capitalism. The Fed's job is to help make those booms and busts less extreme and thus less damaging.This.

[Vteckidd]

so by your guys logic, FED created in 1913, was supposed to stop run on banks, and panics. Since then we have had

Great Depression
Great Recession 2008
.COM Bubble 1998-00
Bush SR. Recession of early 90s
Reagan Recession
Carter Recession, 20% Inflation

AND 20 OTHER RECESSIONS. Wow, theyve been doing a GREAT job.

You need to look at Quantitative Easing, currency manipulation. The FED has caused the stagnate environment we are in now, by propping up banks and businesses (under Bush and Obamas blessing). The FED was enacted to prevent crashes, it doesnt stop them, and whats worse, they hinder the recovery. The FED has kept interest rates far below market norms........why?


Ill dumb it down
Quantitative Easing Explained - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTUY16CkS-k)

If you TRULY want to learn, set some time aside and watch this
Peter Schiff - The Fed Unspun: The Other Side of the Story - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdB9I79BQRI)

The FED creates the booms and busts, because they control our monetary policy. We were FAR better off before the FED, we would be FAR better off without a central monetary dictator. Interest RATES HAVE TO GO HIGHER

[bu villain]

so by your guys logic, FED created in 1913, was supposed to stop run on banks, and panics. Since then we have had

Great Depression
Great Recession 2008
.COM Bubble 1998-00
Bush SR. Recession of early 90s
Reagan Recession
Carter Recession, 20% Inflation

AND 20 OTHER RECESSIONS. Wow, theyve been doing a GREAT job.

No the Fed can't stop panics, runs on banks, recessions, booms, or busts. They can only lessen the pain and severity of them.


You need to look at Quantitative Easing, currency manipulation. The FED has caused the stagnate environment we are in now, by propping up banks and businesses (under Bush and Obamas blessing). The FED was enacted to prevent crashes, it doesnt stop them, and whats worse, they hinder the recovery. The FED has kept interest rates far below market norms........why?

I will not defend every move the Fed has made because everyone agrees they make mistakes, including the Fed chairs. But having a Fed is better than the alternative. I actually think keeping the interests rates low was necessary. Before 2008, the banks were lending too freely. After the crash they weren't lending hardly at all. The artificially low interest rates have unfroze the credit markets so that we are no getting closer to a reasonable place. We're not there yet of course.


The FED creates the booms and busts, because they control our monetary policy. We were FAR better off before the FED, we would be FAR better off without a central monetary dictator. Interest RATES HAVE TO GO HIGHER

No, they don't create booms and busts. Those are an inherent part of capitalism and we had more severe ones before the Fed was created. I agree interest rates have to go higher and there is nothing the Fed can't stop that even if it wanted to. We already see it happening even though the Fed says it won't change its QE policy until unemployment is down to 6%. I guarantee that a year from now, interest rates will be higher than they are today even if there is a QE3.

[.blank cd]

so by your guys logic...

No. Not by our logic. This isn't an opinion. This is what the fed does. It's not something that's debated

I stopped watching the teddy bears when he said printing money was the last refuge of failed economic policy. That is someone's opinion, its not fact, and it doesn't belong in factual discussion.

The Peter Schiff video is an hr and a half long and I'm at work. Although I have some idea of what to expect from him and I probably shouldn't, I'll take a look at it later.

[Vteckidd]

FED stops booms and busts,

WE HAVE BOOMS AND BUSTS

seems legit.

arguing is futile, the facts speak for themselves. Some of Bus statements just prove that theres no use in debating anything, its like arguing over the color blue.

[.blank cd]

FED stops booms and busts,

WE HAVE BOOMS AND BUSTS

seems legit.

arguing is futile, the facts speak for themselves. Some of Bus statements just prove that theres no use in debating anything, its like arguing over the color blue.

I don't think anyone said the fed stops booms and busts. Unless you can quote something that I didnt see.

[Vteckidd]

No the Fed can't stop panics, runs on banks, recessions, booms, or busts. They can only lessen the pain and severity of them.

not true, give specifics. Their policy has caused the recessions, not prevented them, or kept them from happeneing. Im not sure you know how the stock market, bonds, interest rates and CPI work. Not being snooty, just the truth. I dont know how you can claim the FED isnt responsible when they control interest rates, which is lending, and control monetary policy......




But having a Fed is better than the alternative. I actually think keeping the interests rates low was necessary. Before 2008, the banks were lending too freely. After the crash they weren't lending hardly at all. The artificially low interest rates have unfroze the credit markets so that we are no getting closer to a reasonable place. We're not there yet of course.

not true at all. keeping interest rates low IS THE PROBLEM. no one saves, so you combat TOO MUCH LENDING by having........MORE LENDING???? :lmfao::thinking:

What happens when interest rates are kept lower than the market wants? does saving happen?



No, they don't create booms and busts. Those are an inherent part of capitalism and we had more severe ones before the Fed was created. I agree interest rates have to go higher and there is nothing the Fed can't stop that even if it wanted to. We already see it happening even though the Fed says it won't change its QE policy until unemployment is down to 6%. I guarantee that a year from now, interest rates will be higher than they are today even if there is a QE3.
Not true x3. the great depression and great 2008 recession were the worst we have ever had, and was under the Feds watch. -1 point

The fed prints money, it directly controls interest rates.

[bu villain]

FED stops booms and busts,

WE HAVE BOOMS AND BUSTS

seems legit.

Who is arguing that the fed stops booms and busts. In my post right before you made the comment I said:


No the Fed can't stop panics, runs on banks, recessions, booms, or busts. They can only lessen the pain and severity of them.

Is there a strawman in the house?

[bu villain]

not true, give specifics. Their policy has caused the recessions, not prevented them, or kept them from happeneing. Im not sure you know how the stock market, bonds, interest rates and CPI work. Not being snooty, just the truth. I dont know how you can claim the FED isnt responsible when they control interest rates, which is lending, and control monetary policy......

I keep repeating it but it doesn't seem to be working. Perhaps caps lock will help...THE FED CANNOT PREVENT RECESSION, DEPRESSION, BOOMS, BUSTS, OR PANICS! They aren't responsible because they aren't Gods. There are global markets, economic conditions, and human psychology involved. You can't force anyone to borrow money no matter what the interest rates are. You can't force banks to lend money either. You can't force people/companies to invest their money wisely. How exactly do you think the Fed could have prevented the Tech bubble?


not true at all. keeping interest rates low IS THE PROBLEM. no one saves, so you combat TOO MUCH LENDING by having........MORE LENDING???? :lmfao::thinking:

The problem in 2007 was too much lending. The problem in 2010 was not enough. They are fighting the 2010 problem, not the 2007 one.


What happens when interest rates are kept lower than the market wants? does saving happen?

Yes savings happens just at a lower rate. But will live in a consumer driven economy so to get it humming again, we want spending, not saving.


Not true x3. the great depression and great 2008 recession were the worst we have ever had, and was under the Feds watch. -1 point

There are plenty to choose from so I'm not sure what criteria you are using to say 2008 was the worst. The 13 Worst Recessions, Depressions, and Panics In American History - 24/7 Wall St. (http://247wallst.com/investing/2010/09/09/the-13-worst-recessions-depressions-and-panics-in-american-history/1/)

Also while technically the Fed existed during the Great Depression, we were still tied to gold which severely limited their ability to do anything about it. Once they disconnected the domestic market from gold in 1933, they were able to do more. Remember, I'm not claiming the Fed has total control over the economy.


The fed prints money, it directly controls interest rates.

Directly influences but does not directly control. If the US lived in a bubble then you would have a stronger argument. The thing is, borrowers and lenders can always go to the international markets. That's why I will not invest in Treasuries right now, no yield. Not sure why we are discussing this aspect though because I never disagreed they could influence interest rates. In fact, it is one of their primary purposes.

[Vteckidd]

There were economic depressions regularly, you had runs on banks and panics . The whole reason the Fed was created in 1913 was in response to this. Dollars stopped being redeemable for gold after the Great Depression. People saw what chaos the gold standard could cause and said enough. I think the fact that 2008 was the first time we had a depression and we have had no bank runs in the last 80 years is pretty convincing evidence that our current system is better than the alternative.

Ill just refresh your memory.

Do you realize how much is wrong based upon this statement alone?

You insinuate that the FED was created to stop depressions and recessions, then say it cannot stop them or control them only lessen the pain, but then dont answer the fact that we have had 20-30 recessions and 2 depressions SINCE the feds creation.

Ok, so the ONLY goal of the FED is to print money to help during recessions right? Thats your argument?

[Vteckidd]

I keep repeating it but it doesn't seem to be working. Perhaps caps lock will help...THE FED CANNOT PREVENT RECESSION, DEPRESSION, BOOMS, BUSTS, OR PANICS! They aren't responsible because they aren't Gods. There are global markets, economic conditions, and human psychology involved. You can't force anyone to borrow money no matter what the interest rates are. You can't force banks to lend money either. You can't force people/companies to invest their money wisely. How exactly do you think the Fed could have prevented the Tech bubble?

Cheap money




The problem in 2007 was too much lending. The problem in 2010 was not enough. They are fighting the 2010 problem, not the 2007 one.

So , what is the perfect amount of lending then? LEND too much= BAD, lend too little= BAD Why do people lend? What affects it? What causes it? I dont think you understand the concept.


Yes savings happens just at a lower rate. But will live in a consumer driven economy so to get it humming again, we want spending, not saving.
LOL

Spending is what the problem is, we need high interest rates , not lower. Saving is what is needed, not spending. ECON 101




There are plenty to choose from so I'm not sure what criteria you are using to say 2008 was the worst. The 13 Worst Recessions, Depressions, and Panics In American History - 24/7 Wall St. (http://247wallst.com/investing/2010/09/09/the-13-worst-recessions-depressions-and-panics-in-american-history/1/)

I needed a COMMA, i meant the 2 worst economic problems we have had, have been DURING the FEDs watch.





Directly influences but does not directly control. If the US lived in a bubble then you would have a stronger argument. The thing is, borrowers and lenders can always go to the international markets. That's why I will not invest in Treasuries right now, no yield. Not sure why we are discussing this aspect though because I never disagreed they could influence interest rates. In fact, it is one of their primary purposes.

Correct, except natural markets would set interest rates, not the artifical central bank.

[Vteckidd]

WHO allowed the banks to leverage 80 times that of their deposits?

LOW INT rates= problems

Solution= LOWER INTEREST RATES

LEGIT

[bu villain]

Ill just refresh your memory.

Do you realize how much is wrong based upon this statement alone?

You insinuate that the FED was created to stop depressions and recessions, then say it cannot stop them or control them only lessen the pain, but then dont answer the fact that we have had 20-30 recessions and 2 depressions SINCE the feds creation.

Ok, so the ONLY goal of the FED is to print money to help during recessions right? Thats your argument?

I like how you are just picking a single part of my argument and ignoring all the other points I'm making but that's fine.
1) The Fed was not created to stop depression/recession, only to expand our ability to respond to it
2) I don't need to answer to how many recessions/depressions we have had because I have not claimed the Fed can stop them (see Item #1)
3) The goal of the fed is
- Conducting the nation's monetary policy by influencing money and credit conditions in the economy in pursuit of full employment and stable prices.
- Supervising and regulating banks and other important financial institutions to ensure the safety and soundness of the nation's banking and financial system and to protect the credit rights of consumers.
- Maintaining the stability of the financial system and containing systemic risk that may arise in financial markets.
- Providing certain financial services to the U.S. government, U.S. financial institutions, and foreign official institutions, and playing a major role in operating and overseeing the nation's payments systems.

[bu villain]

Cheap money

So if someone gives you a cheap loan and you blow it on blow and hookers, that's the lenders fault?


So , what is the perfect amount of lending then? LEND too much= BAD, lend too little= BAD Why do people lend? What affects it? What causes it? I dont think you understand the concept.

The perfect amount of lending is the amount where the demand for money at a given interest rate meets the borrowers ability to pay it back. There are too many details to get into the minutiae of risk and markets.


Spending is what the problem is, we need high interest rates , not lower. Saving is what is needed, not spending. ECON 101

I'm not sure which ECON 101 course you took that told you spending = bad, savings = good. It very much depends on the circumstances. The circumstances now are very different than the circumstances that got us into this mess.


WHO allowed the banks to leverage 80 times that of their deposits?

LOW INT rates= problems

Solution= LOWER INTEREST RATES

LEGIT

As I said before, the Fed certainly has made mistakes. No one is arguing against that. When an institution makes mistakes, do you destroy the whole institution or try to learn from the mistakes? Also, lower interest rates can cause problems, just as higher interest rates can. Anyone who thinks there is one monetary policy that is best in every economic condition is a simpleton.

[Vteckidd]

THe problem is I cant sit here and spend 1000 hours teaching you monetary policy, that first statement you made is like someone saying "i can add, ill now debate calculus with you"

Its honestly not worth the time.

Go watc hthat Peter Schiff video, its all pretty self explantory, and shows, factually, that the FED has made the economic and monetary policy WORSE, without question. Not even debatable.

You need to really understand interest rates, inflation, deflation, deficit spending.

The FED is directly responsible for the booms and busts

[bu villain]

THe problem is I cant sit here and spend 1000 hours teaching you monetary policy, that first statement you made is like someone saying "i can add, ill now debate calculus with you"

Its honestly not worth the time.

Go watc hthat Peter Schiff video, its all pretty self explantory, and shows, factually, that the FED has made the economic and monetary policy WORSE, without question. Not even debatable.

Sure, which is why all economists agree with you right? Even if the Fed has made things worse, that doesn't mean we shouldn't have a Fed. It means we need a better Fed.

[Vteckidd]

Sure, which is why all economists agree with you right? Even if the Fed has made things worse, that doesn't mean we shouldn't have a Fed. It means we need a better Fed.

not elected doe, answer to no one doe

[bu villain]

not elected doe, answer to no one doe

That's a whole 'nother topic doe.

[Vteckidd]

Just watch the first part of the video, tell me what you disagree with

[ssonsk]

Sup guys :)

[bu villain]

Just watch the first part of the video, tell me what you disagree with

Ok, I watched the first 15-20 minutes. For the most part, the disagreement I would have with him isn't over the facts, it's over what is the proper thing to do in light of those facts. For example, he stated that the FDIC creates a moral hazard and without it, banks would take less risks. Totally agree, but that doesn't mean to me we should get rid of the FDIC. The reason being that while in the aggregate, banks would be more responsible, there would still be many who were not and that could leave many depositors high and dry when such a risks explode. That is not an acceptable solution in my opinion.

I know he has limited time and I didn't watch the entire video but he makes a lot of statements as if they are facts when they are more of opinions and gives very limited arguments to support that position. He talks about interest rates are too low because the market would make them higher if the Fed would let it. I don't subscribe to the argument that whatever the market would do is the correct place for interest rates to be. He also says savings rates are too low because of the low interest rates. True enough, but he gives very little reasoning why at this particular time, higher savings rates are more important than low interest rates.

Next he goes on to discuss how the gold standard would prevent the government from being fiscally irresponsible. I don't see that as the case at all because the gold standard doesn't prevent the government from borrowing money from other countries and racking up mountains of debt that way. What it does do is prevent the government from having any way out should they get themselves into a debt problem. You can see that problem playing out now in Greece. If Greece were able to print money, they could use inflation as a tool to minimize the economic pain they are in. Sure you could argue that they deserve all the pain, or need the pain, but that is very much an opinion rather than an economic fact. To me, the gold standard is a cure that is worse than the problem it tries to solve.

I guess my disagreements boil down to these things:
1) The market knows what is best
2) People and banks will behave rationally/responsibly in a free market
3) The aggregate is always more important than individuals
4) The Fed's ability to manipulate the money supply not only can cause economic problems, but that's all it can do