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Vteckidd
12-09-2005, 05:21 PM
Lots of people are doing the CTR pistons in B series motors. this was a VERY well informed thread on Honda-tech.com that i think people should know. these are the CORRECT compression Ratios for using a CTR pistons in different B series engines. note the compression on a LS vtec with a GSR head.

For Reference:
STD=Standard Bore
OS=a .25 OVERBORE
P72=GSR head
PR3=B16 Head

PR3 head/B16 Block

STD = 11.643438609136867
.25 OS = 11.703231023151065

PR3 head/B17 Block

STD = 12.193487116069006
.25 OS = 12.256369577319077

PR3 head/B18C Block

STD = 12.58636786521145
.25 OS = 12.649248792586258

P72 head/B18C Block

STD = 12.924594026551906
.25 OS = 12.989047869209281

PR3 head/B18A/B Block

STD = 12.825536009218106
.25 OS = 12.88971493738735

P72 head/B18A/B Block

STD = 13.170743903246784
.25 OS = 13.236528215133324

All calculated using OEM 3 layer gasket @ .026 and the compression height provided by Omniman


Picture of CTR piston VS P30 JDM B16 Piston
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMjU1MjI2NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

IntegraXTR
12-09-2005, 05:34 PM
12.9 on a gsr motor? damn thats high, is that safe for daily driven because I was going to ctr pistons or itr.

Vteckidd
12-09-2005, 05:37 PM
12.5 is the threshhold of PUMP GAS.

I will go into more detail of why CTR pistons are not ideal at a later time (prob tomrrow). i would go with PR3 pistons, they yield highercompression that a ITR pistons and they are cheaper.

IntegraXTR
12-09-2005, 05:46 PM
12.5 is the threshhold of PUMP GAS.

I will go into more detail of why CTR pistons are not ideal at a later time (prob tomrrow). i would go with PR3 pistons, they yield highercompression that a ITR pistons and they are cheaper.

which one gets a better power gain?

Vteckidd
12-09-2005, 05:53 PM
ill draw a graph tonight and post it tomrrow.

IMO PR3 pistons will make more power than CTR pistons and ITR pistons. In an all motor car you want a even flame front with as little turbulence as possible. You dont want to split it, and that causes the motor to scavenge, and volumetric efficiency drops, making the motor less productive and efficient, power decreases. in a nutshell, ill draw graphs to explain this later tonight

IntegraXTR
12-09-2005, 05:58 PM
so I should just go with pr3 pistons? thats the first time I ever had someone tell me to go with b16 pistons in my motor, everyone is always like get ITRs or CTRs.

Vteckidd
12-10-2005, 01:07 PM
As promised here is my graph. THESE ARE NOT TO SCALE, but a good enough representation.

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMTE1MTcwMjZzNDEzZGZkMzF5NTQx.jpg

This graph (LEFT) depicts a PR3 piston. Notice the much flatter dome. what this does is when air is coming down the intake manifold, and is let into the combustion chamber, it has a more direct shot across the piston to the exhaust. There is less turbulence, IE air trying to push back off the dome of the piston , the air flows more freely, etc. Also, the FLAME FRONT which is the explosion that happens when the air and fuel meet in the combustion chamber is ignited by the spark plug. the "explosion" is distributed evenly across the top of the piston.

The Next Graph(RIGHT) is a CTR piston. the higher dome DOES give you higher compression. that is true. However, look at the AIR TRAVEL on this graph vs the PR3 piston. there is MUCH more turbulence. Also notice how the Flame Front is split in two, that means less effciency.

Volumetric Effciency is essentially how well the motor runs. Most honda motors run above 100% VE if built right. You cannot make more power without more air, and the air must flow freely. A motor will run longer and last longer and be more efficient with proper air travel and combustion effciency.

IntegraXTR
12-10-2005, 01:12 PM
so my question now is, should I go ahead and switch to PR3 pistons or just rebuild with gsr pistons? keep in mind that its going in a gsr motor.

Vteckidd
12-10-2005, 01:14 PM
PR3 pistons if you are staying all motor.

PR3 Pistons will yield around 11.6:1 in a GSR motor
ITR pistons will yield around 11.0:1 in a GSR motor
CTR pistons will yield around 12.9:1 in a GSR motor

IntegraXTR
12-10-2005, 02:31 PM
thanks, I'm just looking for the best power gain while staying all motor in a budget, any ideas on where to get new pr3 pistons with rings?

Vteckidd
12-10-2005, 02:35 PM
Topline they are on Fulton Industrial

or

Honda

TallGuy
12-12-2005, 03:38 PM
Would you recommend ctr pistons for the b16a1?

99SI
12-13-2005, 09:44 AM
That's not a graph, it's an illustration! ;) lol. Sorry, I had to do it. I'm impressed by your "graphing" skillz Mike, I didn't know you were such an artist! lmao!

IntegraXTR
12-13-2005, 02:03 PM
Would you recommend ctr pistons for the b16a1?

I would just because I've seen a b16a with ctr's run before.

Vteckidd
12-13-2005, 02:40 PM
CTRs in a B16 arent bad. They are significantly lower compression than the other 1.8l.

Jdm94Coupe
12-14-2005, 02:49 PM
.....yea i sounded stupid 2 years ago......

Vteckidd
12-14-2005, 02:53 PM
it WILL blow up.

you cannot run CTR pistons in an LS block with a GSR head. the combustion chamber of a GSR head is too small, the piston dome on the CTR piston will hit the head. eventually itll pound the rod bearings out and rip the wrist pin out of the piston.

get a b16 head, r get rid of those pistons. compression will be very high, look at the 1st page of this thread. its around 13:1

P72 head/B18A/B Block

STD = 13.170743903246784
.25 OS = 13.236528215133324

Jdm94Coupe
12-14-2005, 03:03 PM
yea i seen that, and stover told me it's not good to be over 12.5 or somethin like that.....well b16 head it is....it wont hurt anything to run itr cams will it?

would a ctr head be ideal, since ctr heads are obviously meant to be used with ctr pistons? cause i wanna run either itr or ctr cams anyway..

Vteckidd
12-14-2005, 03:56 PM
The heads are pretty much the same. i wouldnt but a CTR head cause you can buy b16 head and buy ITR cams for MUCH cheaper.

Even with a B16 head youll be at 12.8ish compression. still high, i suggest you get a cometic headgasket that is thicker to bring the compression down

Jdm94Coupe
12-14-2005, 04:42 PM
ok thankz....pm me if u find a b16 head for a good price....thankz

IntegraXTR
12-15-2005, 10:56 AM
ok thankz....pm me if u find a b16 head for a good price....thankz

think someone is selling one in car parts forum

Vteckidd
12-15-2005, 10:58 AM
I have a B16 head here, $350

Jdm94Coupe
12-15-2005, 11:06 AM
complete? whats it missing?

Vteckidd
12-15-2005, 11:15 AM
for $450 is can come with a AEBS manifold.

its missing a TB and fuel rail/inj

Jdm94Coupe
12-15-2005, 11:16 AM
so it has dist? obd1?......could i use my fuel rail/inj and tb from my ls?

Vteckidd
12-15-2005, 11:21 AM
ahh
NO dizzy, i forgot to mention that, and yes you cna use your LS stuff

OBD2 99-00SI head

Jdm94Coupe
12-15-2005, 11:25 AM
lol, thought so.......dist. are harder to come by then rhd del sols, lol

so $350 is w/out the manifold?

Vteckidd
12-15-2005, 11:39 AM
yes.

do you drive a white/silver del sol? I was going to my GFs house the other night, and i made a left on Leguin Mill, and there was a lowered del sol behind me. shot in the dark, i tohught thats what you had

Jdm94Coupe
12-15-2005, 11:49 AM
i sold my del sol, but the guy who bought it i think he lives even further south then me(mcdonough).....if it had bronze konigs it might have been him.....i got a white dc teggy now, soon to be champ. white, and by march jdm front with ls/vtec!

Jdm94Coupe
01-09-2006, 10:38 PM
mike i got another ?........ok i've been thinking alot about my motor plans....

1. will my comp. be too high with a b16 head? cause i thought 12.5 was basically the highest i should go, and i think i would be at 12.8
2. What im thinking.....
B18 Block with CTR Pistons
B16 Head or ITR head and sell the cams
Skunk 2 Pro 1's
Upgraded ValveSprings/Retainers
CAI
I'll prob keep my DC 4-1....
ITR tranny....tuned w/ uber......

what power you think i will make? over 200?

Jdm94Coupe
01-09-2006, 10:38 PM
BTW we got my motor fixed, LoL....

speedminded
03-23-2006, 09:28 AM
Hey mike, what would the compression be with an ITR head? I guess it's still considered a PR3 but with mild porting so i'm thinking the numbers will be differant than what you have posted...I wanna pull mine and put in new rings and thinking about changing the pistons while i have it apart.

Vteckidd
03-23-2006, 09:37 AM
Use the PR3 head numbers.

Basically, this is just a guideline, only way to be 100% accurate is to cc the motor

speedminded
03-23-2006, 09:43 AM
Use the PR3 head numbers.

Basically, this is just a guideline, only way to be 100% accurate is to cc the motorhrmm...so that would put me right at the pump gas limit. err, i think flow testing right now is a little beyond the budget...but one day!

Have you dyno'd an ITR with CTR vs B16 pistons?

Vteckidd
03-23-2006, 10:04 AM
hrmm...so that would put me right at the pump gas limit. err, i think flow testing right now is a little beyond the budget...but one day!

Have you dyno'd an ITR with CTR vs B16 pistons?
Not anything i could give an adequate comparison with. I mean, I have dynoed ITR motors with CTR pistons, they usually dont make over 185-190whp.

I have 3 cars with B16 pistons or ITR pistons making over 190whp, 1 makes over 200whp.

but its an apples an oranges comparison, like some motors have different cams and headers compared to the others.

Jdm94Coupe
03-23-2006, 10:17 AM
so ctr pistons in a ITR wouldnt be better then the ITR pistons...... man i was JUST bout to pm you about the exact same thing u 2 are talking about! lol... o and another thing

how much is a ITR complete bottom end w/ 26k miles worth? $$wise

speedminded
03-23-2006, 10:23 AM
so ctr pistons in a ITR wouldnt be better then the ITR pistons...... man i was JUST bout to pm you about the exact same thing u 2 are talking about! lol... o and another thing

how much is a ITR complete bottom end w/ 26k miles worth? $$wiseNo more than $1,500, I've seen them on Honda-tech for that price and that's what i got mine brand new for.

Jdm94Coupe
03-23-2006, 10:25 AM
Ok good..... some STUPID asshole tried to tell me last night it was worth $350.... i almost killed him through my computer.... lol.... btw speedminded do u do body work???.... ima prob sell my block for bout 1200 or so

speedminded
03-23-2006, 10:32 AM
Ok good..... some STUPID asshole tried to tell me last night it was worth $350.... i almost killed him through my computer.... lol.... btw speedminded do u do body work???.... ima prob sell my block for bout 1200 or soYou have an ITR shortblock?

Jdm94Coupe
03-23-2006, 10:38 AM
i have a ITR full swap....and a ls long block w/ ctr pistons rebuilt...and a gsr tranny....and a new job, LOL!!

speedminded
03-23-2006, 10:40 AM
i have a ITR full swap....and a ls long block w/ ctr pistons rebuilt...and a gsr tranny....and a new job, LOL!!Mmm, full itr swap...where did you run across that?

Jdm94Coupe
03-23-2006, 10:43 AM
well u know what they say..........










everythings on ebay! lol...... nah totaled itr a minute ago, lol....

Jdm94Coupe
03-23-2006, 10:44 AM
btw i just looked at ur cardomain.... do ur calipers RED, lol....

speedminded
03-23-2006, 11:29 AM
btw i just looked at ur cardomain.... do ur calipers RED, lol....if i had charcoal wheels i would, dunno how red and bronze would look together.

Jdm94Coupe
03-23-2006, 11:43 AM
o damn ur wheels look charcoal in the pic in your sig, i thought you re did them, lol nvm

Jdm94Coupe
03-23-2006, 11:45 AM
btw wut do u run in the 1/4.... ur car runs quick (watched the video)

speedminded
03-23-2006, 11:48 AM
btw wut do u run in the 1/4.... ur car runs quick (watched the video)dunno, never ran with the LSD...was spinning 2nd and 3rd gear before.

Jdm94Coupe
03-23-2006, 01:57 PM
oh ok ok

BLk92DA
05-13-2006, 03:20 AM
btw wut do u run in the 1/4.... ur car runs quick (watched the video)


:lmfao:

Jdm94Coupe
05-13-2006, 09:07 AM
wutz so funny?^^^ somethin u need to say to me?

silversol
08-21-2006, 12:38 AM
nevermind

y-49
09-15-2006, 12:22 AM
i was gonna order some oem ctr pistons for my ls/vtec im building but i want to run pump gas. so not a good ideal. what kind of compression would i have with a ls with b16 head? im glad i read this before i started waisting money. lmk thanks

Vteckidd
09-15-2006, 06:56 PM
The b16 head is listed with CTR pistons an LS block.

your BEST BET is to run PR3 pistons, itll be a much better engine. trust me

AllmotorDC4
01-07-2007, 11:05 PM
I was wondering, would it be safe to use itr pistons on a Ls? With a built Ls head?

RISKYB
09-18-2007, 10:07 PM
thanks for the info mke

k20
10-17-2007, 11:48 PM
ls block with gsr head and ctr piston ...is it safe

Thundercat
10-18-2007, 12:26 AM
ls block with gsr head and ctr piston ...is it safe
P72 head/B18A/B Block

STD = 13.170743903246784
.25 OS = 13.236528215133324

You like Pump Gas ???

mr.koupe
10-25-2007, 09:05 AM
here you go for all your b series compression calculation needs.... rep me plz :D

http://www.clubcivicquebec.com/compression_calculator_bserie_f.php :goodjob:

Mangrum
02-18-2008, 08:33 PM
if you are trying to build a na gsr like i am wanting to in the future.. why would you not want to go with the ctr pistons if they have a higher compression? than the pr3 pistons? dont you want to gain the highest compression possible?




PR3 pistons if you are staying all motor.

PR3 Pistons will yield around 11.6:1 in a GSR motor
ITR pistons will yield around 11.0:1 in a GSR motor
CTR pistons will yield around 12.9:1 in a GSR motor

Vteckidd
02-19-2008, 10:11 AM
if you are trying to build a na gsr like i am wanting to in the future.. why would you not want to go with the ctr pistons if they have a higher compression? than the pr3 pistons? dont you want to gain the highest compression possible?
no you dont want the highest compression possible. You want the highest compression with the flattest dome for an even flame front.


Optimizing combustion chamber space is often one of the most over looked aspects of an engine build. Although its a simple concept it has many rewards, including increased power, lower octane requirements, reduced fuel consumption and better overall throttle response. This is really important when your build has a compression increase as one of its modifications. Raising the compression ratio is equally important as the quality of the combustion space.

http://www.k20a.org/upload/comspace.JPG

If your combustion space isn't well defined you wont see the full potential of the compression increase. Also your fuel octane requirement will be higher with a poorly defined combustion space.

The pent roof Honda 4 valve combustion chamber is one of the most efficient combustion chamber shapes, basically a triangle, with a flat piston. As the dome of the piston is increased the space becomes oddly shaped and not only takes longer to burn the air fuel mixture but also requires more ignition timing (starting the burn sooner) to do so. The reason it requires more timing is because the area becomes more like a winding passage vs an open triangle. This in turn promotes detonation and increases the octane requirement. As you can see in the diagrams below the large dome will cause the combusting air fuel mixture to hit the piston at 45 degree angles in some areas diluting and diverting the combustion energy. In the other diagram you can see the engine with the flat piston has a clearly defined area and combustion gasses will push directly on the piston downwards providing a more efficient piston push. The better defined combustion area requires less timing because of its superior burn efficiency.

Many things affect compression ratios. Here is a list of things that change compression with all other things being equal.

-Stroke length will change compression ratios, longer strokes increase compression while shorter strokes decrease compression.

-Bore size will change compression ratios. Bigger bores increase compression ratios while smaller bores decrease compression ratios.

-Head gasket thickness will also change compression ratios. Thicker head gaskets decrease the compression ratio and thinner head gaskets increase the compression ratio.

-Piston dome volume changes compression ratios. larger domes increase smaller domes decrease compression.

-Piston compression height (the distance from the center line of the wrist pin to the flat of the piston) {measured as if the piston was a flat top}. This can determine how much the piston is in the hole or out of the hole or flush with the block. the more the piston is in the hole (under the block deck) the less compression, the higher it is the more compression.

-Chamber volume changes compression ratios. The larger the volume the more it decreases the compression. The smaller the volume the more it increases the compression ratio.

-Spark plug depth also has a small effect on compression ratios. By taking off the sealing ring or washer you can add a small amount of compression to any engine.

In short anything that changes or can change the volume of the cylinder or combustion space will change the compression ratio. Even a valve job can sink the valves into the head slightly and increase chamber volume thus decreasing compression slightly.

When planning a built engine always try to increase the compression without adding to the piston dome. Here are some examples of ways to increase the compression without adding to the piston dome (keeping the flattest possible piston).

With so many areas affecting compression ratios its almost never needed to use dome volume to gain compression, although it is the easiest way. Certainly not the most efficient.

-flat faced valves can add .2-.4 on many engines
-milling the head can add upto a full point (be sure to account for piston to valve clearance changes).
-over boring can add .1+
-stroking can add quite a bit depending on how much you add to the stroke.
-decking the block to change the piston from negative deck height to flush or slightly/less negative.

When you buy pistons the advertised compression ratio is for one engine combination. For example if you buy 12:1 pistons for a 2.0 liter rsx engine and plan to put them in a 2.4 liter tsx enigne you will have a lot more than 12:1 compression.

Mangrum
02-19-2008, 04:57 PM
wow you really went into detail.. thank you that helps alot

southside
04-28-2008, 06:06 AM
what about b16 pistons in a ls with ls head

Samhonda95
04-28-2008, 10:49 PM
Not to go againts anyone but I had a stock ls bottom end with a type-r head (cams,intake,tb, etc.) and built a ls bottom end with .20 ctr's and swapped it out. Needless to say, it runs very well.

TheChosenOne
04-29-2008, 12:04 AM
What he said.

All that stuff about CTR pistons being the devil is uneducated lies. I had a ls/vtec with CTR pistons and it ran like a slave on the underground railroad: Fast and with a purpose! :crazy: :crazy:

All that really matter is build quality. Think about it. If they really were that troublesome, than Honda would have never made them.

Vteckidd
04-29-2008, 12:43 AM
Uneducated lies?

nah its proof

Just because you got lucky doesnt mean everyone else will.

CTR Pistons were designed for short stroke CTR engines.

not 89mm stroke LSVTECs.

Honda never inteneded those pistons to go into other combos of engines.

Uneducated? this info has been around before you even were on IA or had a honda to mod.

Me an johnzm found this info out like 5 years ago when i was building my OEM 190whp GSR. He built a GSR with CTR pistons, and he had nothing but problems, he had to pull 10 degrees out just to avoid detonation.

ANyone that has TUNED or DYNOED a CTR pistons powered GSR or ITR or LSVTEC KNOWS that its a problem.

Anyone that knows a LSVTEC with GSR Head and CTR pistons knows that the engine WILL BLOW UP because the CTR pistons stick out of the hole and will hit the head. eventually a rod bearing will get pounded out.

So no, its not lies, its backed up by the likes of

Omniman- Inventor of LSVTEC
DonF- Engine builder 40 years
Jim Justice- #1 engine machinist in USA

and many others.

southside
05-01-2008, 06:45 AM
what about b16 pistons in a ls with ls headSince no one seen it the first time.

Vteckidd
05-01-2008, 09:18 AM
thats fine

southside
05-01-2008, 02:21 PM
what should the compression ratio be?

Josh miller
12-19-2008, 11:22 PM
my gsr hatchback was like half a car i thought gsr post to beat h22 whats faster

Jazze Ek
02-15-2009, 05:20 PM
What would you say to a gsr with ctr pistons and flat face valves and head ported

Vteckidd
02-15-2009, 06:15 PM
What would you say to a gsr with ctr pistons and flat face valves and head ported
it will blow up, compression will be around 13+:1

Run ITR or PR3 Pistons

Jazze Ek
02-16-2009, 10:19 PM
Have already put the setup in and have not had anything 2 go wrong with the motor and it pulls really good. Could this be something that could go wrong later on

Vteckidd
02-17-2009, 10:45 AM
like i said, you are on 13:1 compression, you WILL detonate . Get it tuned

Boosting EG
02-17-2009, 11:08 AM
Question,

GSR block , 40 over ctr piston , gsr rods and crank and a B16 head is that safe and what power are we talking about or would you go with , GSR block , LS rods and crank , CTR pistons a B16 head ?

Vteckidd
02-17-2009, 11:15 AM
Question,

GSR block , 40 over ctr piston , gsr rods and crank and a B16 head is that safe and what power are we talking about or would you go with , GSR block , LS rods and crank , CTR pistons a B16 head ?

YOu are reading the thread right?

I dont advocate CTR pistons in ANY MOTOR unless its a pure B16 (1.6 Block and head)

Any of the setups you listed will be well over 12.7-13.3:1 compression which is way too high for the street.

you will be better off using B16 Pistons, flat top is a much more efficient piston

Boosting EG
02-17-2009, 12:06 PM
thanks

Jazze Ek
02-17-2009, 02:57 PM
it will be tuned soon but can i get by with a vtec controller and i also have a 97 itr ecu

Vteckidd
02-17-2009, 04:16 PM
no you cannot, youll need to go to OBD1 an have it tuned with Crome or Hondata.

southside
02-17-2009, 04:35 PM
no you cannot, youll need to go to OBD1 an have it tuned with Crome or Hondata.How much is crome vs hondata?

scttydb411
02-17-2009, 05:02 PM
How much is crome vs hondata?

crome is the cost of chipping an ecu...approx $80.
hondata is the cost of the unit plus chipping/installing to ecu=$280-700 depending on model installed.
tuning is the same for either one.

n1accord
10-10-2009, 10:33 PM
What about ctr in ls block with ls head?

n1accord
10-10-2009, 10:35 PM
What one of those pistons in a ls no vtec

n1accord
10-10-2009, 10:39 PM
What this guy said


what should the compression ratio be?

profwdcrx
10-27-2009, 08:36 AM
i got a kinda odd motor combo....B17gsr block, B18gsr head, and stock pistons, i wanna run CTR pistons but i also got PR3(that need to be cleaned)..... tha b17 got a odd stroke but wat will CTR piston and a GSR head combo do in ur opinion!?!

k3tsurui
11-30-2009, 09:35 PM
i never got the calculating your compression ratio thing. I am assuming that there is a formula of some sort. Care to share anyone?:D

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stretch
01-13-2011, 02:29 PM
it WILL blow up.

you cannot run CTR pistons in an LS block with a GSR head. the combustion chamber of a GSR head is too small, the piston dome on the CTR piston will hit the head. eventually itll pound the rod bearings out and rip the wrist pin out of the piston.

get a b16 head, r get rid of those pistons. compression will be very high, look at the 1st page of this thread. its around 13:1

P72 head/B18A/B Block

STD = 13.170743903246784
.25 OS = 13.236528215133324

not knocking you but i dont agree with you....just my .02 though

Vteckidd
02-08-2011, 10:31 PM
well ive made MORE power than most of the 13:1 motors around Atlanta for years with 11:1 and 11.5:1, i also have seen my fair share of LSVTEC GSR header with CTR pistons blow themselves up.

anyone can try it but it WILL not last, i stand by that statement

loa706
08-27-2011, 01:23 PM
i have a jdm b16a if it makes any diff...i got some ctr pistons standerd ...soo i just need to change my pistons out to my rods and im good to go?...no thicker gasket?...im not racing it just a dd...or what else would u recomend...some itr cams and abs intake mani or skunk 2>..