What decades of Democrats being in control will get you...

[Echonova]

Detroit files for bankruptcy protection (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/18/detroit-prepares-bankruptcy-filing-friday/2552819/)

[BanginJimmy]

Democrats are a symptom, govt employee unions are the disease.

[.blank cd]

Wonder how this compares to what a decade of republicans being in control does...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007–08

[BanginJimmy]

your link says unsupported characters.

[.blank cd]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007–08

[Sinfix_15]

Detroit files for bankruptcy protection (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/18/detroit-prepares-bankruptcy-filing-friday/2552819/)

Democrats are happy and content to watch the world burn..... as long as it's a democrat holding the matches.

[bu villain]

Don't you think Detroit's financial problems are more caused by the failure of the auto industry there rather than having democratic leaders.

[Sinfix_15]

Don't you think Detroit's financial problems are more caused by the failure of the auto industry there rather than having democratic leaders.

no.

[David88vert]

Don't you think Detroit's financial problems are more caused by the failure of the auto industry there rather than having democratic leaders.

Didn't they get bailed out?

[BanginJimmy]

Don't you think Detroit's financial problems are more caused by the failure of the auto industry there rather than having democratic leaders.

Detroit put all of their eggs in the auto manufacturing basket and its now their death sentence. With auto manufacturing employment dwindling and therefore tax revenue, the govt employee unions and the extravagant contracts they negotiated with elected officials they put in office are making it impossible for Detroit to get on a positive fiscal standing.

Like I said, democrats are a symptom, the govt employee unions are the disease. Just look at Cali, Illinois, Jersey and New York for further examples.

[Echonova]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007–08You are seriously using Wikipedia as a source????




And you wonder why no one takes you seriously...

[.blank cd]

Don't you think Detroit's financial problems are more caused by the failure of the auto industry there rather than having democratic leaders.

No, Everything is democrats fault. Even when it's not their fault, its their fault. Stop injecting logic into this narrative, or I won't have anywhere to direct my misplaced frustration

[.blank cd]

You are seriously using Wikipedia as a source????




And you wonder why no one takes you seriously...

So Wikipedia is wrong and there was no financial system crash in 2007?

I should let my parents know the collapsing economy was not the reason their 401ks evaporated.

[David88vert]

No, Everything is democrats fault. Even when it's not their fault, its their fault. Stop injecting logic into this narrative, or I won't have anywhere to direct my misplaced frustration

Before Obama got elected, everything was blamed on Bush. Obama has been in office for several years, but nothing is ever his fault. So, care to explain why the double standard?

[.blank cd]

Before Obama got elected, everything was blamed on Bush. Obama has been in office for several years, but nothing is ever his fault. So, care to explain why the double standard?

I blamed Bush when I was younger until I learned what went on and what presidents responsibilities were. So no double standard here.

[Echonova]

So Wikipedia is wrong and there was no financial system crash in 2007?

I should let my parents know the collapsing economy was not the reason their 401ks evaporated.LOL, you're not really good at this are you?

[Echonova]

I blamed Bush when I was younger until I learned what went on and what presidents responsibilities were. So no double standard here.http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j402/Echonova2/971525_555274541175640_1337744240_n_zps9d82e3c4.jp g

[Echonova]

Fuck it, I'm out for the night.
















Perhaps blank will have a better excuse in the morning. Doubt it, but it could happen.

[-EnVus-]

Sale Detroit to China no one will miss them

[WhiteAccord]

Don't you think Detroit's financial problems are more caused by the failure of the auto industry there rather than having democratic leaders.

Really? :umno:

[.blank cd]

Really? :umno:

You really know your stuff bro. The drying up auto industry, Detroit's bread and butter, had absolutely nothing to do with it not being able to meet its financial obligations. And that's contrary to what every single financial analyst has said about the situation, so you must know something they don't. Might wanna consider a career change.

[David88vert]

I should let my parents know the collapsing economy was not the reason their 401ks evaporated.



Their 401k only evaporated if they locked in the losses and sold their stocks while it was low. If they wisely invested them into a diversity of solid funds and stocks, then they should be higher now than before the stock market dip. The DOW is over 15.5 today, which is well above what it was at before the dip.
Ideally, what you should do (and what I did), is ramp up your stock purchasing when the market is low. I personally used the dip to increase my buying power, and purchased as much as I could during the dip. I made a decent amount off the dip, and it helped me get into my current home.

[David88vert]

You really know your stuff bro. The drying up auto industry, Detroit's bread and butter, had absolutely nothing to do with it not being able to meet its financial obligations.

Municipal failures are complex - they aren't just leadership issues, and they aren't just economy issues. They are a complex mix of many decisions, but one thing is clear - they budget outpaced the available revenue. If you look at Detroit, many of the homes are empty, and many left due to lack of work.

As for employers:
"Although Detroit is known worldwide as the automotive capitol of the United States, in reality, Detroit automakers rank way down on the list of city employers. The most jobs are provided by the Detroit Medical Center, with the city, state and Wayne State University all in the top 10 employers, according to Crain’s Detroit Business. Billionaire Dan Gilbert’s Quicken Loans and Rock Financial are among the city’s biggest employers. Chrysler, which has a major plant in the city, ranks 10th and General Motors 11th, although Detroit is home to GM headquarters." - Forbes

It's a stretch to try to say that the collapse of Detroit is due to the auto industry.

[.blank cd]

It's a stretch to try to say that the collapse of Detroit is due to the auto industry.

Its not a stretch at all actually.

Know what those numbers were in the 50's?

[David88vert]

Its not a stretch at all actually.

Know what those numbers were in the 50's?

It is a stretch. The 50's were 60 years ago.
If you really want to try to stretch back to then, let's look at the facts.
By 1950, Detroit had become the fifth largest city in the United States, home to nearly two million people - now only 886,000. But in the midst of that 50's prosperity, the auto industry restructured its operations. Between 1948 and 1967—when the auto industry was at its economic peak—Detroit lost more than 130,000 manufacturing jobs.
The Dodge Main plant employed more than 30,000 workers at its peak, and closed in 1980. Ford’s River Rouge plant started cutting jobs back in the 1950s, and now only has a few thousand workers.
Chrysler filed for bankruptcy in 1979, while Ford and General Motors were in massive deficits.

So, considering that most of the power of the automobile industry in Detroit was gone by 1980, how to you think that the auto industry is behind the collapse of Detroit? Why is it the fault of the automakers over 30 years later? Especially since there are other larger employers there now like Quicken?

City leaders haven't attracted enough businesses over the years to grow jobs, they lost all of their diversity (whites make up 10% of the population), and they have a massive drop in population (and tax revenue), without cutting the costs of services - how is any of that the fault of the auto industry?

[Vteckidd]

So Wikipedia is wrong and there was no financial system crash in 2007?

I should let my parents know the collapsing economy was not the reason their 401ks evaporated.

Democrats shouldered 50% of that blame as well. Sorry. The pushed the HOMES FOR EVERYONE that created the market for the GOP to monetize it.

Detroit is bankrupt because of unions, jimmy already said it.

Unions make companies uncompetitive.

[Vteckidd]

Actually GM is doing well in China, FOrd doesnt need any money.

The auto industry isnt the total issue, but its a decent sized cause. AMerican AUto Companies want to cry and whine for taxpayer money so they can continue to perpetuate their lifestyle , and never be forced to make their company compeititve and modernize it.

They are just as bad as your evil "wallstreet bankers"

We should have let them fail when we had the chance

[.blank cd]

It's a snowball effect. With the industrial decline that's been happening in MI, other businesses slow as a result. Automotive suppliers left, local businesses dried up, white and middle-class flight, and then the crash of 07 is the cherry on top. So not only is it not a stretch, the decline of the auto industry is in fact the root of the problem. Suggesting that "democrats" are responsible because they were the ones at the helm is disingenuous at best. For a city that was built on and relied so heavily on industry, this was a disaster waiting to happen, and would have happened regardless of who was in the hot seat.

[BanginJimmy]

It's a snowball effect. With the industrial decline that's been happening in MI, other businesses slow as a result. Automotive suppliers left, local businesses dried up, white and middle-class flight, and then the crash of 07 is the cherry on top. So not only is it not a stretch, the decline of the auto industry is in fact the root of the problem. Suggesting that "democrats" are responsible because they were the ones at the helm is disingenuous at best. For a city that was built on and relied so heavily on industry, this was a disaster waiting to happen, and would have happened regardless of who was in the hot seat.

Detroit was well on its way before the '07 collapse, though it did speed up the process by a few years. Govt employee unions worked very hard to make sure democrats continued to be elected to state and city posts. When contract negotiation time came, the unions walked in with a list of demands and an ultimatum, approve everything we want or we walk, if we walk, you lose your job next election.

This is the exact same situation that is happening in California, Illinois (which is close to bankruptcy also), and New York. When govt employee unions became the most important voting block in the state, they took full advantage of it and have run them into the ground.

[David88vert]

It's a snowball effect. With the industrial decline that's been happening in MI, other businesses slow as a result. Automotive suppliers left, local businesses dried up, white and middle-class flight, and then the crash of 07 is the cherry on top. So not only is it not a stretch, the decline of the auto industry is in fact the root of the problem. Suggesting that "democrats" are responsible because they were the ones at the helm is disingenuous at best. For a city that was built on and relied so heavily on industry, this was a disaster waiting to happen, and would have happened regardless of who was in the hot seat.

The auto industry was already weak back in 1980, yet you still think that is the source of Detroit's financial failure. It's laughable. The "white flight" was mostly done by 1967, hardly a factor, as black families poured in to fill the jobs that they left, so why did the local businesses dry up? The Top 10 employers in Detroit are not auto industry related - that is fact. Most of the Top 10 were created after the auto industry had already reduced its size, so they actually are creating new jobs in Detroit.

BTW - Up until 1962, most of Detroit's mayors were Republican. After 1962, all of them have been Democrats - every single one.
List of mayors of Detroit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mayors_of_Detroit)

[.blank cd]

The auto industry was already weak back in 1980, yet you still think that is the source of Detroit's financial failure. It's laughable. The "white flight" was mostly done by 1967, hardly a factor, as black families poured in to fill the jobs that they left, so why did the local businesses dry up? The Top 10 employers in Detroit are not auto industry related - that is fact. Most of the Top 10 were created after the auto industry had already reduced its size, so they actually are creating new jobs in Detroit.

BTW - Up until 1962, most of Detroit's mayors were Republican. After 1962, all of them have been Democrats - every single one.
List of mayors of Detroit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mayors_of_Detroit)

You can deny reality as much as you need to. Doesn't change the principles of economics at all. You build a city on an industry and it dries up. No city could sustain the losses it incurred.

Thank you though for also pointing out the "democratic" effort to stave their losses by offering tax incentives and such to bring back business. Ultimately it wasnt enough. The failing auto industry is the root problem.

[BanginJimmy]

You can deny reality as much as you need to. Doesn't change the principles of economics at all. You build a city on an industry and it dries up. No city could sustain the losses it incurred.

Thank you though for also pointing out the "democratic" effort to stave their losses by offering tax incentives and such to bring back business. Ultimately it wasnt enough. The failing auto industry is the root problem.

So lets blame it on the auto industry basicly drying up in the 80's and ignore the fact that detroits political leadership hasnt been successful in replacing those jobs. Lets also remember that those same political leaders have allowed the educational base of the city to degrade to the point that most of derroits citizens are not educated well enough to fill any but the most basic of tasks.

Sent from my Galaxy SIII using Tapatalk 2.

[.blank cd]

So lets blame it on the auto industry basicly drying up in the 80's and ignore the fact that detroits political leadership hasnt been successful in replacing those jobs. Lets also remember that those same political leaders have allowed the educational base of the city to degrade to the point that most of derroits citizens are not educated well enough to fill any but the most basic of tasks.
Drying up since the late 60's, all the way up to today. It's not like it just stopped in the 80's.

All a consequence of deindustrialization.

[Vteckidd]

Isnt it the responsibility of the city to find a new industry and bring jobs in ? I mean can every city just say "well fuck, there goes those jobs, i guess we are doomed"

How very unamerican dont you think?

Also, by admitting the industry is failing, and they couldnt fix it, then you are admitting the bailout was pointless and throwing bad money after bad. you cant have it both ways

[Vteckidd]

All a consequence of deindustrialization.

no, its shitty leadership, bad politics, and people being inept. Stop giving a pass to the people in power. Stop making excuses.

I dont know if you know this or not, but people are elected to run a city, and to make it thrive and be economically viable. Detroit and other cities are failing at it. Auto Industry sucks? Ok, so what, FIND SOMETHING ELSE.

Dont tell me cities only operate 1 way

[.blank cd]

Isnt it the responsibility of the city to find a new industry and bring jobs in ? I mean can every city just say "well fuck, there goes those jobs, i guess we are doomed"Sure. But with what do you replace motor city with? Their whole infrastructure was built around cars. Parts suppliers, dealers, etc. After the war, if you had a car, good chance it came from Detroit. Germany was rebuilding, Japan was leveled, we were the only ones left.


Also, by admitting the industry is failing, and they couldnt fix it, then you are admitting the bailout was pointless and throwing bad money after bad. you cant have it both waysThe auto bailout wasn't pointless. It just didnt work as planned. Sure it kept some people from losing jobs here, but CEOs had other plans with that money. They're only thinking about how they can pay back that loan as quickly as possible. And that's great business sense. So, build plants where we can get the most production per dollar. It saved them from folding. But if my business or your business goes belly up, who helps us?

[.blank cd]

no, its shitty leadership, bad politics, and people being inept. Stop giving a pass to the people in power. Stop making excuses.

I dont know if you know this or not, but people are elected to run a city, and to make it thrive and be economically viable. Detroit and other cities are failing at it. Auto Industry sucks? Ok, so what, FIND SOMETHING ELSE.

Dont tell me cities only operate 1 way

And they did. There was a concerted democratic effort to bring back business with tax incentives and such. A few businesses and employees came through, but it wasn't enough to replace what they lost.

Blaming it on shitty leadership is shortsighted.

[BanginJimmy]

Drying up since the late 60's, all the way up to today. It's not like it just stopped in the 80's.

All a consequence of deindustrialization.

Oh excuse me. They have had 50 years to prepare, not just 30.

Quality of education has nothing to do with industry. It has everything to do with educators.

Sent from my Galaxy SIII using Tapatalk 2.

[David88vert]

You can deny reality as much as you need to. Doesn't change the principles of economics at all. You build a city on an industry and it dries up. No city could sustain the losses it incurred.

Thank you though for also pointing out the "democratic" effort to stave their losses by offering tax incentives and such to bring back business. Ultimately it wasnt enough. The failing auto industry is the root problem.

Have you ever been to Detroit? Do you remember the news broadcasts about Detroit back in the 1980s? Reality is that no businesses wanted to move there as the city's crime rate went through the roof, and the police were powerless to make the streets safe.


The Democrats have been in firm control of Detroit for over 50 years - as you stated it - putting forth their effort. If something repeatedly fails for over 50 years, why would you still continue to support the same failed policies and the same platform?

The debt that Detroit has? "According to the Detroit Free Press, the city holds $18.5 billion in debt and other liabilities. The motor city is also $9.2 billion dollars short in unfunded pension and retiree health care benefits, leaving city workers collecting pennies on the dollar for their plans".
Reuters reports that 47 percent of the city's taxable properties were delinquent in 2011 and the unemployment rate is now 16 percent, which is triple what it was in 2000.

The bankruptcy filing states these causes - not the automobile industry:
The unemployment rate has nearly tripled since 2000 and, at 16 percent for the metropolitan area in April, is more than twice the national average.
The homicide rate is at a 40-year high, earning Detroit a reputation as one of the nation's most dangerous cities for more than 20 years.
The average wait time for a response to a police call is 58 minutes, compared to the national average of 11 minutes.
Just 8.7 percent of cases are solved, compared to 30.5 percent nationwide.
Detroit's police cars, fire trucks and ambulances are very old.
Two out of every five street lights are broken.
78,000 structures in the city are abandoned.

For all those reasons, Snyder wrote, the city can't afford to pay more than $18 billion in obligations. Taxes are at their legal limits and raising them would do little good, Snyder wrote. The population is 28 percent smaller today than it was in 2000. Residents wouldn't be able to afford a further tax hike and it would drive even more away.



In contrast, Pittsburgh and Buffalo were also built upon industry and manufacturing, yet as bad as it got for them, neither has filed bankruptcy.

[.blank cd]

If your entire metro area is built around manufacturing cars. Then your CEOs move all those jobs, be it due to technology advancements, cheaper labor elsewhere, people leave to where there are jobs, when people leave, the grocery stores close, restaurants, movie theaters, etc etc. When these places close, more people leave, housing prices fall, more people leave, crime goes up, more people leave. Now you have a dwindling population, so now you have less tax revenue. Your tax bills go up because you have to keep police there because of the surge in crime, and you want to offer incentives to businesses and people to return, but no one wants to return to an area of urban decay. This isn't some particular party problem.

[.blank cd]

Quality of education has nothing to do with industry. It has everything to do with educators.

Sent from my Galaxy SIII using Tapatalk 2.So where do you get these educators from if everyone is moving out of the city?

[Vteckidd]

its not their fault david, it would be short sighted to blame the people actually responsible for all that. It makes much more sense to blame the failing auto industry

/sarcasm

[David88vert]

Sure. But with what do you replace motor city with? Their whole infrastructure was built around cars. Parts suppliers, dealers, etc. After the war, if you had a car, good chance it came from Detroit. Germany was rebuilding, Japan was leveled, we were the only ones left.


Detroit should have gone after the banking industry - Charlotte, NC did, and they have continuously improved. Detroit could have gone after the IT industry - lots of jobs there also. Cities compete for companies to relocate all the time. Detroit's leadership just failed to attract the amount of businesses that it needs.

[.blank cd]

In contrast, Pittsburgh and Buffalo were also built upon industry and manufacturing, yet as bad as it got for them, neither has filed bankruptcy.

I didnt say industry as a whole, I said the auto industry, who's life blood is in Detroit, who was directly impacted by the crash.

[.blank cd]

its not their fault david, it would be short sighted to blame the people actually responsible for all that. It makes much more sense to blame the failing auto industry

/sarcasm

You're right. Detroit democrats were directly responsible for auto industry technological advancements and the mass relocation of jobs. LOL.

It almost hurts pulling this narrative out of my throat. Lol

[David88vert]

So where do you get these educators from if everyone is moving out of the city?

Detroit Public Schools currently employs 7,839. 1% of the population are employed as educators in public schools.
Wayne State University employs another 5,924.

[.blank cd]

Detroit Public Schools currently employs 7,839. 1% of the population are employed as educators in public schools.
Wayne State University employs another 5,924.

So, how does that answer my question? Lol

This doesn't even tell me how many people are actually educators. If the public school system employs 8000 people, some are administrative, some are custodial, some are coaching staff. How many of those 8000 in Detroit and 6000 at Wayne are strictly educators?

How do you get quality educators from a pool that's consistently dwindling?

[David88vert]

I didnt say industry as a whole, I said the auto industry, who's life blood is in Detroit, who was directly impacted by the crash.

The steel industry went through a massive collapse in the 1970s, and Pittsburgh was built on the steel industry. It was very similar to Detroit, and has also been under Democratic mayoral leadership for even longer. In the 1980s and 1990s, they also lost their top four corporate companies and about half their population, as well as the most educated.
Today, they have no steel mills left at all - but still didn't file bankruptcy, even though they went through the same Great Recession as everyone else.
What they did was raze a steel mill site, and built the Pittsburgh Technology Center. It is considered to be one of the World's Most Livable Cities.

[David88vert]

So, how does that answer my question? Lol

This doesn't even tell me how many people are actually educators. If the public school system employs 8000 people, some are administrative, some are custodial, some are coaching staff. How many of those 8000 in Detroit and 6000 at Wayne are strictly educators?

It wasn't to specifically answer your question, just to give some facts, that's all.

I do not know how many of the people are actually teaching in classes, nor what they teach, but I'm sure that you could get those numbers from them.
Are you aware that 40% of all Detroit students now attend charter schools? Or that the Emergency Manager closed over 100 schools and cut 800 teaching jobs last year, increasing the classroom sizes dramatically? They are over 40 students in a classroom, and up to 60 in a high school classroom. All of this was widely broadcast through the media.


How do you get quality educators from a pool that's consistently dwindling?

Maybe you don't fire the ones that you have?

[Sinfix_15]

If you water your grass too much, the roots will not go deep into the soil and the grass will be more likely to die in a shortage of water. Grass that isnt over watered will reach deeper into the soil and will be more able to sustain itself during a water shortage and need less watering.

Even grass understands personal responsibility.....

something we've been trying to teach democrats since the beginning of time.

[.blank cd]

Maybe you don't fire the ones that you have?If you're a quality educator, and services are going belly up, crime is climbing, house prices are plummeting, and you don't know if the city can pay you or not, are you more or less inclined to stick around?

[.blank cd]

If you water your grass too much, the roots will not go deep into the soil and the grass will be more likely to die in a shortage of water. Grass that isnt over watered will reach deeper into the soil and will be more able to sustain itself during a water shortage and need less watering.

Even grass understands personal responsibility.....

something we've been trying to teach democrats since the beginning of time.

Thank you for that horticultural aside.

[BanginJimmy]

Maybe you don't fire the ones that you have?


Disagree here. IMO if you want to improve schools you fire the bad teachers and administrators and make rooms for ones that care. It is nearly impossible to fire a bad teacher and as a result, most school districts don't even try. Our dwindling test scores and tech advantage is proof positive of this.
Sent from my Galaxy SIII using Tapatalk 2.

[David88vert]

Disagree here. IMO if you want to improve schools you fire the bad teachers and administrators and make rooms for ones that care. It is nearly impossible to fire a bad teacher and as a result, most school districts don't even try. Our dwindling test scores and tech advantage is proof positive of this.
Sent from my Galaxy SIII using Tapatalk 2.

That works when you have the plan to improve the system overall, and have the classroom ratios in check. Detroit has some of the worst classroom ratios already, and took steps to make it worse. Saddling a good teacher with way too many students can be worse than having them deal with a few not-as-good teachers. Our local schools are losing their good teachers right now from overcrowding the classrooms - I've seen that myself.

[Vteckidd]

You're right. Detroit democrats were directly responsible for auto industry technological advancements and the mass relocation of jobs. LOL.

It almost hurts pulling this narrative out of my throat. Lol

Dont put words in my mouth.

Let me make it simpler for you , other cities have re-invented, why cant detroit?

MAYBE, JUST MAYBE , its because they bowed to the unions for so long that they became UNCOMPETITIVE , and forced the companies (WHO OWNED THOSE JOBS ANYWAY) to go to places that didnt have crime, high taxes, and shitty corporate environments.

YES , i hold leaders responsible, unlike you

if they arent responsible, why even hold elections?

[Vteckidd]

services are going belly up, crime is climbing, house prices are plummeting, and you don't know if the city can pay you or not,

AND WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS...............

ILL GIVE YOU A HINT, THEY ARE ELECTED AND IN POWER.....................

[BanginJimmy]

That works when you have the plan to improve the system overall, and have the classroom ratios in check. Detroit has some of the worst classroom ratios already, and took steps to make it worse. Saddling a good teacher with way too many students can be worse than having them deal with a few not-as-good teachers. Our local schools are losing their good teachers right now from overcrowding the classrooms - I've seen that myself.

I get you. I think everyone can agree that fixing our school system should be the #1 priority at all levels. The mess we have going right now isnt working for a lot of reasons and I have yet to see someone come out with a large scale idea to fix it. Charter and private schools take some pressure off the govt ones, but there is no possible way to expand either of those enough to make it universally feasible.

I say it should be #1 because it is an unarguable fact that higher education leads to lower crime and higher earnings. Improvements in those 2 areas lead to improvements in many other problem areas of our society also.

[.blank cd]

Dont put words in my mouth.

Let me make it simpler for you , other cities have re-invented, why cant detroit?

MAYBE, JUST MAYBE , its because they bowed to the unions for so long that they became UNCOMPETITIVE , and forced the companies (WHO OWNED THOSE JOBS ANYWAY) to go to places that didnt have crime, high taxes, and shitty corporate environments.

YES , i hold leaders responsible, unlike you

if they arent responsible, why even hold elections?

The question was "why is Detroit filing bankruptcy today" not "why didnt Detroit re-invent itself". The answer to the original question is "the auto industry and its magnates were largely responsible in failing the city that supported them, and Detroit's leadership was unsuccessful at stopping the train wreck that would eventually happen."

Every place is different. Pittsburg may not have experienced the same decline as Detroit for many reasons. I'll give leadership some responsibility, but I'm not gonna give businesses a free pass just because I'm a staunch supporter of the free market. They're largely responsible, everyone else knows that

What you're seeing here is an unintended negative externality of capitalism.

[.blank cd]

AND WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS...............

ILL GIVE YOU A HINT, THEY ARE ELECTED AND IN POWER.....................

GM, Ford, Chrysler aren't elected. They may have a lot of power though...

[David88vert]

I get you. I think everyone can agree that fixing our school system should be the #1 priority at all levels. The mess we have going right now isnt working for a lot of reasons and I have yet to see someone come out with a large scale idea to fix it. Charter and private schools take some pressure off the govt ones, but there is no possible way to expand either of those enough to make it universally feasible.

I say it should be #1 because it is an unarguable fact that higher education leads to lower crime and higher earnings. Improvements in those 2 areas lead to improvements in many other problem areas of our society also.

You shouldn't see a "large scale solution". Primary public education is run at a state level, and should not be at a federal level. Let states compete and use education to draw people to their state - it already works this way. Unfortunately, GA is way behind many other states in regards to competition with other states.

[Sinfix_15]

Thank you for that horticultural aside.

Youre welcome. If our president quit throwing water on all of our problems, things might grow strong enough roots not to need the government sprinkler system.

[David88vert]

The question was "why is Detroit filing bankruptcy today" not "why didnt Detroit re-invent itself". The answer to the original question is "the auto industry and its magnates were largely responsible in failing the city that supported them, and Detroit's leadership was unsuccessful at stopping the train wreck that would eventually happen."

Every place is different. Pittsburg may not have experienced the same decline as Detroit for many reasons.

Pittsburgh is almost identical in its problems, and even its leadership - that's why I picked them.

The auto industry did not fail Detroit - they chose to develop their business in a more profitable manner for their shareholders. That's what competition does.

The answer to "why Detroit filed bankruptcy" has clearly been laid out by the Emergency Manager, and he did not claim that the 1950's auto industry was the answer.
To claim that the Big Three are responsible for Detroit's bankruptcy filing shows that you do not understand how businesses work, or how cities are managed.

[BanginJimmy]

You shouldn't see a "large scale solution". Primary public education is run at a state level, and should not be at a federal level. Let states compete and use education to draw people to their state - it already works this way. Unfortunately, GA is way behind many other states in regards to competition with other states.

Even on the state level I dont see anyone with a solution. I do agree with you that the federal govt needs to stay out of way. The Dept of Ed is nothing more than a bureaucratic mess that takes money from the system and offers nothing positive to the system.

[BanginJimmy]

The question was "why is Detroit filing bankruptcy today" not "why didnt Detroit re-invent itself". The answer to the original question is "the auto industry and its magnates were largely responsible in failing the city that supported them, and Detroit's leadership was unsuccessful at stopping the train wreck that would eventually happen."

Every place is different. Pittsburg may not have experienced the same decline as Detroit for many reasons. I'll give leadership some responsibility, but I'm not gonna give businesses a free pass just because I'm a staunch supporter of the free market. They're largely responsible, everyone else knows that

What you're seeing here is an unintended negative externality of capitalism.

WTF would a business be responsible for keeping a city afloat? The at is the responsibility of the city and state govt. The sole purpose of a business is to make money, not neighborhood upkeep. A lot of businesses do that to improve their identity both locally and nationally, but that is seen by the business as an opportunity cost.

[David88vert]

Even on the state level I dont see anyone with a solution. I do agree with you that the federal govt needs to stay out of way. The Dept of Ed is nothing more than a bureaucratic mess that takes money from the system and offers nothing positive to the system.

That's why we have county boards of education.

[Vteckidd]

The question was "why is Detroit filing bankruptcy today" not "why didnt Detroit re-invent itself".

Its pointless to argue when someone cant see the forest through the trees.

Detroit is filing bankruptcy because it failed to re-invent itself and change with the times. we are talking 50 YEARS OF FAILURES. Despite all the uniuon outcry, all the bailouts an money, they still FAILED. Leadership is to blame, despite the many ways you shift blame and refuse to answer the question.

[Vteckidd]

GM, Ford, Chrysler aren't elected. They may have a lot of power though...

GM FORD AND CHRYSLER dont pay for govt services, collect taxes, enforce policies and regulations, and they damn sure dont pay teachers salaries.

troll post is trolling

[.blank cd]

Even when they're largely responsible, businesses can do no wrong. LOL

[.blank cd]

WTF would a business be responsible for keeping a city afloat? The at is the responsibility of the city and state govt. The sole purpose of a business is to make money, not neighborhood upkeep. A lot of businesses do that to improve their identity both locally and nationally, but that is seen by the business as an opportunity cost.

Who said anything about a businesses responsibility for keeping a business afloat? The city (its people and its economy, not its government operations) relied on that industry, that industry made other plans

Its not automakers responsibility to keep the city afloat, but that's what it was doing whether it wanted to or not. It essentially employed the city.

Sorry, but you can't place all the blame on the leadership. Too many variables involved.

[BanginJimmy]

Who said anything about a businesses responsibility for keeping a business afloat? The city (its people and its economy, not its government operations) relied on that industry, that industry made other plans

Its not automakers responsibility to keep the city afloat, but that's what it was doing whether it wanted to or not. It essentially employed the city.

You said it.


the auto industry and its magnates were largely responsible in failing the city that supported them


but I'm not gonna give businesses a free pass just because I'm a staunch supporter of the free market. They're largely responsible, everyone else knows that



Sorry, but you can't place all the blame on the leadership. Too many variables involved.

I agree with you here. Far too many varibles to put all the blame on any 1 entity. Political leadership does hold the vast majority of the blame though.

[David88vert]

Detroit's leadership had over 60 years to save the city when the automakers started moving jobs out of the city. NO contract or union agreement lasts that long, and that is exactly what Detroit's bankruptcy filing states as the main factor that they need relief from. These contractual agreements were entered into by the city decades after the auto industry had shrank to a small employer. There is no possible way that any of these failures can be blamed on an industry that had done most of its downsizing before 1980. Leadership that cannot effect change with over 30 years of effort is not the way forward.

[Sinfix_15]

Seems like a lot of cities are filing for bankruptcy these days.....

just curious....

are these cities ran by democrats or republicans?

[David88vert]

Seems like a lot of cities are filing for bankruptcy these days.....

just curious....

are these cities ran by democrats or republicans?

Bankrupt Cities, Municipalities List and Map (http://www.governing.com/gov-data/municipal-cities-counties-bankruptcies-and-defaults.html)

List of Bankruptcy Filings Since January 2010

All Municipal Bankruptcy Filings: 36

City and Locality Bankruptcy Filings (8):
-- City of Detroit
-- City of San Bernardino, Calif.
-- Town of Mammoth Lakes, Calf. (Dismissed)
-- City of Stockton, Calif.
-- Jefferson County, Ala.
-- City of Harrisburg, Pa. (Dismissed)
-- City of Central Falls, R.I.
-- Boise County, Idaho (Dismissed)


You will have to look each one up as to elected officials - and you will find some Democrats and some Republicans on each.

[Sinfix_15]

Bankrupt Cities, Municipalities List and Map (http://www.governing.com/gov-data/municipal-cities-counties-bankruptcies-and-defaults.html)

List of Bankruptcy Filings Since January 2010

All Municipal Bankruptcy Filings: 36

City and Locality Bankruptcy Filings (8):
-- City of Detroit
-- City of San Bernardino, Calif.
-- Town of Mammoth Lakes, Calf. (Dismissed)
-- City of Stockton, Calif.
-- Jefferson County, Ala.
-- City of Harrisburg, Pa. (Dismissed)
-- City of Central Falls, R.I.
-- Boise County, Idaho (Dismissed)


You will have to look each one up as to elected officials - and you will find some Democrats and some Republicans on each.

rhetorical question.

[.blank cd]

Seems like a lot of cities are filing for bankruptcy these days.....

just curious....

are these cities ran by democrats or republicans?

Why does it matter to you? Running out of ammunition for your "anti-democrat" narrative? If a city is going bankrupt, leadership could be one small part of a larger problem, as it was in Detroit.

Do you plan on including all the cities and states that are way in the black that are run by democrats?

[Sinfix_15]

Why does it matter to you? Running out of ammunition for your "anti-democrat" narrative? If a city is going bankrupt, leadership could be one small part of a larger problem, as it was in Detroit.

Do you plan on including all the cities and states that are way in the black that are run by democrats?

I say po(tay)toe you say po(tah)toe..... you say anti democrat... i say pro america.

[Sinfix_15]

and the thought of running out of ammo against democrats is just silly.....

[Echonova]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4N9AwyYd2o

[Sinfix_15]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4N9AwyYd2o

How dare you hold Obama accountable for words that come out of his own mouth.... that's racist.

[Echonova]

On a side note: This is the most addictive "game" ever.


GeoGuessr - Let's explore the world! (http://geoguessr.com/)

[Echonova]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hhJ_49leBw#at=62

[Echonova]

Judges rules Detroit can't file for bankruptcy... Because they have laws against diminishing retirement plans, and it doesn't honor Obama who bailed out the car companies (not making that up).


Ingham County judge rules Detroit bankruptcy be withdrawn; Schuette appeals | The Detroit News (http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130719/METRO01/307190099/)


BEAM ME UP SCOTTY!!!

[nsany(atl)]

Obama has been pumping money into Detroit for awhile. IE new Casinos, rail cars, ect. Skip to About 2 min into video
Prison Planet.com » Obama Lied About Saving Detroit (http://www.prisonplanet.com/obama-lied-about-saving-detroit.html)

[.blank cd]

Obama has been pumping money into Detroit for awhile. IE new Casinos, rail cars, ect. Skip to About 2 min into video
Prison Planet.com » Obama Lied About Saving Detroit (http://www.prisonplanet.com/obama-lied-about-saving-detroit.html)

Oh boy. It's the bastion of credible news reporting: Prison Planet!

Just so you know, in that small clip of Obamas speech he so non-chalantly took out of context, Obama was using the word Detroit as a metonym for the auto-industry, not the city itself, as a response to Romneys charge to let the automakers go bankrupt.

[Sinfix_15]

Oh boy. It's the bastion of credible news reporting: Prison Planet!

Just so you know, in that small clip of Obamas speech he so non-chalantly took out of context, Obama was using the word Detroit as a metonym for the auto-industry, not the city itself, as a response to Romneys charge to let the automakers go bankrupt.

Obama was right........ Detroit should not go bankrupt...........
























until after the election.

[gogriz91]

Well, we have Devil's Night to look forward to...

[bu villain]

Of course leadership is to blame, if their job isn't to keep the city running, what is? However as several others have stated, there are a number of factors that led to Detroit's current state, one of which was the decline of the auto industry. David mentioned that the bankruptcy filing didn't list it specifically but it seems pretty obvious that the decrease in population and increase in violence were at least partially outcomes of that industry's decline. You may think that the auto industry had no responsibility to Detroit and I won't argue against you, but that doesn't mean their actions didn't have a huge impact.

[-EnVus-]

What a load of Bull Shit they are bankrupt yet still approve a NEW hockey Arena WTF!?!?


LANSING, Mich.—A state board on Wednesday unanimously gave the go-ahead for a new Red Wings hockey arena in downtown Detroit to be paid for in part with tax dollars as the broke city works through bankruptcy proceedings.
New Detroit arena still OK for taxpayer funds, despite bankruptcy - NHL - Sporting News (http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/story/2013-07-24/detroit-arena-plans-joe-louis-chapter-9-bankruptcy?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl9%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D348755)

[Sinfix_15]

What a load of Bull Shit they are bankrupt yet still approve a NEW hockey Arena WTF!?!?


New Detroit arena still OK for taxpayer funds, despite bankruptcy - NHL - Sporting News (http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/story/2013-07-24/detroit-arena-plans-joe-louis-chapter-9-bankruptcy?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl9%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D348755)

They know sugar daddy Obama is gonna make it rain on them soon, they aint stressin no bankruptcy. That whole balancing a budget thing is a republican problem.... democrats just borrow it or print it.

[Echonova]

Gotta spend money to make money... Right? Gonna spend their way out of a deficit.





Seems legit.

[Vteckidd]

there are a number of factors that led to Detroit's current state, one of which was the decline of the auto industry. You may think that the auto industry had no responsibility to Detroit and I won't argue against you, but that doesn't mean their actions didn't have a huge impact.

WAIT A SECOND

wasnt it Obama and Biden during the 12 election who had catch phrases of "OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD AND GM IS BACK"

Obama gave tons of speeches about how GM wa sback at the TOP of the auto industry.

Was that all LIES?

[.blank cd]

Nope. He was pretty much right on the nose actually. It's what you call "jobless growth"

[Vteckidd]

Nope. He was pretty much right on the nose actually. It's what you call "jobless growth"

but the auto industry is decimated, so thats why detroit is bankrupt


which is it?

ow you are forced to admit that the Auto industry left detroit because........................................... .......

Whose job is it to encourage companies to stay in their city.........................


HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM



You guys cant have it both ways. you cant say the auto industry is to blame for the collapse of DET, and then say, the auto industry is doing fine despite leaving detroit, and then absolve the city leaders from the policies they have followed that made industry leave.


GAME, SET, MATCH

/thread

[bu villain]

WAIT A SECOND

wasnt it Obama and Biden during the 12 election who had catch phrases of "OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD AND GM IS BACK"

Obama gave tons of speeches about how GM wa sback at the TOP of the auto industry.

Was that all LIES?

Yes GM is doing much better now but Detroit's policies aren't the only thing to blame for them leaving. Overseas wages are often better than any state in America. Also more and more cars are being made with robotics, so those jobs simply don't exist anywhere anymore. Both those things are great for GM but wouldn't help Detroit at all.


You guys cant have it both ways. you cant say the auto industry is to blame for the collapse of DET, and then say, the auto industry is doing fine despite leaving detroit, and then absolve the city leaders from the policies they have followed that made industry leave.



Of course leadership is to blame, if their job isn't to keep the city running, what is?

I'm not going to continue to discuss it with you if you are putting words in my mouth that contradict my posts.

[Vteckidd]

Overseas wages are often better than any state in America.

i stopped reading there. Its laughable you think that

[.blank cd]

but the auto industry is decimated, so thats why detroit is bankrupt


You guys cant have it both ways. you cant say the auto industry is to blame for the collapse of DET, and then say, the auto industry is doing fine despite leaving detroit, and then absolve the city leaders from the policies they have followed that made industry leave.But that's precisely what happened. And it's not any one persons fault. Slumps in sales played a role in the automakers eventual bankruptcy. Theres been and less need for American workers. Advancements in technology and outsourcing are both responsible for that. Now that they've stabilized, the jobs are still gone.

No one is arguing the decline of automakers didnt play a substantial role in the bankruptcy of the city.

[.blank cd]

i stopped reading there. Its laughable you think that

So you'd rather pay someone $30/hr in the states than $5/hr abroad?

[Sinfix_15]

Yes GM is doing much better now but Detroit's policies aren't the only thing to blame for them leaving. Overseas wages are often better than any state in America. Also more and more cars are being made with robotics, so those jobs simply don't exist anywhere anymore. Both those things are great for GM but wouldn't help Detroit at all.





I'm not going to continue to discuss it with you if you are putting words in my mouth that contradict my posts.

Sleep well America...... the auto industry is thriving...............






















In China...... just like Romney said was going to happen during the election...... and the democrat machine attacked him relentlessly for it and called him a liar.

[bu villain]

In China...... just like Romney said was going to happen during the election...... and the democrat machine attacked him relentlessly for it and called him a liar.

Well then I agree with Romney on this but who cares? This is about economics, not politics.

[Sinfix_15]

Well then I agree with Romney on this but who cares? This is about economics, not politics.

If that were the case, Barack Obama would not be our president. Americans were robbed of a fair election in 2012. I hope this never gets forgotten and it's a mistake that never gets repeated.

[.blank cd]

Sounds like this thread is less about what happened in Detroit, and more about "ooh I think this is an opportunity to generalize the Democratic Party as a whole fiscally irresponsible"

[Vteckidd]

sounds like more "ill separate largely well known democratic policies from the democrats in power, and attempt to blame it on something else"

I mean this is what Obamas whole presidency is about. NEVER attach yourself to your own politics. Constantly campaign and act like its congress fault.

[.blank cd]

If that were the case, Barack Obama would not be our president. Americans were robbed of a fair election in 2012. I hope this never gets forgotten and it's a mistake that never gets repeated.

LOL